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Thread: 2015 fiat 500 turbo sport - Chip? or ECU Mod really do it? changing from Porsche 944T

  1. #21
    Senior Member aelfwyne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cryptoxx View Post
    Torque was my primary desire. And it's there. I love my other cars peak tq. in relation to its peak hp.
    We drove on the interstate today, my wife drove. She used to always back off at 90ish on the wide open areas. Today she was at 106 before I pointed out she might want to slow down. I just don't get how it is so much better in SO MANY WAYS. The chip on the 87 porsche 944 Turbo pretty much just increased boost from 11 psi to 1bar. This particular tune truly seems to have afffected quite a bit more than just boost.

    I wonder how it compares to a stock Abarth now?

    Or a cooper S.

    Maybe I'll get a chance to find out.
    Very happy to hear you're so pleased with your newfound power!

    It's the exact same engine as an Abarth, the tune was the only difference as far as power is concerned. So at 135hp you were already 25hp down against an EPA approved calibration. So that +25 HP is basically "free HP" they left out for marketing/sales reasons. Beyond that, 180 hp is generally the limit in European models, so one could argue that's where emissions become an "issue". So essentially another free +20 hp. That's +45 crank HP basically "free". Everything beyond that is starting to get into "might cause increased engine wear/drivability over time" .. that's where you are required to use 93 octane, change your oil more frequently (suggested max is 5000 miles when tuned), and go a bit easy on the launches so you don't break things. Generally somewhere around 200 to 210 is considered the safest.

    The main reason IMHO that the factory doesn't put more than 180hp into these cars though, besides marketing, is the really lose a bit of margin of safety at that level. You start to get fast enough where the short wheelbase is a liability. For example, you talk about how quickly it got to 106. The brakes can't match that speed. If you try to brake hard at 106, the car will get squirrelly and start to swing around on you into a spin. Snap oversteer is a thing. Too much grip and speed in the corners and it can roll. All no issue with "normal sane" levels of driving. But to be brutally honest, if these rolled out of the factory with 250hp under the hood and 2500 lbs on a wheelbase this short - they'd be considered a deathtrap. Experienced drivers can handle them, and they're fun as hell because of this quirkyness, but just like on old 911 Turbo, you wouldn't want to send your teenager out in them.

    Another difference on your turbo Porsche is that it didn't have modern computer management. I'm not sure if it had a variable valvetrain either. The Fiat has a fully variable intake valve system. It also uses a wideband O2 by default, and is able to adjust fuel mixture and spark 'on the fly' to avoid detonation which many older turbo systems didn't. Overall just much newer technology.
    2015 Rosso Abarth - MAD FIAT - 5 Speed - Phase 2
    2015 Granito Lucente 500T - Proyecto Estupido (Salvage) - Auto - OFT Stage 1

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by aelfwyne View Post
    Very happy to hear you're so pleased with your newfound power!

    It's the exact same engine as an Abarth, the tune was the only difference as far as power is concerned. So at 135hp you were already 25hp down against an EPA approved calibration. So that +25 HP is basically "free HP" they left out for marketing/sales reasons. Beyond that, 180 hp is generally the limit in European models, so one could argue that's where emissions become an "issue". So essentially another free +20 hp. That's +45 crank HP basically "free". Everything beyond that is starting to get into "might cause increased engine wear/drivability over time" .. that's where you are required to use 93 octane, change your oil more frequently (suggested max is 5000 miles when tuned), and go a bit easy on the launches so you don't break things. Generally somewhere around 200 to 210 is considered the safest.

    The main reason IMHO that the factory doesn't put more than 180hp into these cars though, besides marketing, is the really lose a bit of margin of safety at that level. You start to get fast enough where the short wheelbase is a liability. For example, you talk about how quickly it got to 106. The brakes can't match that speed. If you try to brake hard at 106, the car will get squirrelly and start to swing around on you into a spin. Snap oversteer is a thing. Too much grip and speed in the corners and it can roll. All no issue with "normal sane" levels of driving. But to be brutally honest, if these rolled out of the factory with 250hp under the hood and 2500 lbs on a wheelbase this short - they'd be considered a deathtrap. Experienced drivers can handle them, and they're fun as hell because of this quirkyness, but just like on old 911 Turbo, you wouldn't want to send your teenager out in them.

    Another difference on your turbo Porsche is that it didn't have modern computer management. I'm not sure if it had a variable valvetrain either. The Fiat has a fully variable intake valve system. It also uses a wideband O2 by default, and is able to adjust fuel mixture and spark 'on the fly' to avoid detonation which many older turbo systems didn't. Overall just much newer technology.
    I could talk with you forever. I was explaining the brake situation to my wife almost just how you did. She said "but it stops so fast". I said, that actually may not help you if you go slamming them on from a reaction. I still have my 83 944 N/A running with ~168hp (it's up from the US factory). It has no power steering and no ABS. I'm trying to show how proper braking technique and knowledge is better than trusting ABS. I've even HEARD of stories that say people's ability to guide while breaking gives to much false confidence. and that they'll stear into more trouble. Like most right handers will jerk right in a sudden wide laned road with an obstacle. Just like at disney world, if you stay going left you kinda pull the Salmon on everyone. This may make no sense... but anyway, she's really getting the hang of controlled braking and seeing just pushing in hard isn't always your best chance.

    As for the 944 Turbo - it was old computer, it had an actual chip that replaced the factory one. the 968 was the next generation of the 944 and it had "VarioCam" 16 valve. Which makes them a bbitch to turbocharge unless you grab a head off a 2.7 944 which are rare (i think that's right) that is still 8 valve. Those 8 valve 4's love forced induction. I've seen successful turbo'd 16valves. but the few porsche made (i think 11) were 8 valve. I THINK. And I think it was like 368hp. Makes sense considering the 3.0L 4cyl 968 was like 240 naturally aspirated. It held some record for a long time until the s2000 came out, but i'd still take the 968 any day. I call it "more usuable rpm range/power band"... I SO agree with you on the 911 analogy. My friends dad had a 79 911 and when I got my 944T that was already SLIGHTLY modified but still easily 255 he came out driving with me and hit a mailbox on the right while taking a left turn... maybe that was the understeer? LOL I dunno, I can't act like I know the 911's from EXPERIENCE. I fell in love with the 924-944-968 line and always wished it would come back with modern tech 3.0L 4 with modern turbo's.

    I'll never give up on this fiat though. It's freaking great. I had ASSUMED this car was gonna get something like 25 free HP on top of the tune but I didn't want to speak as if i KNEW. I saw one day on a comparison that it said "electronically controlled" in parentheses.. I figured that's what why the boost didn't stay maxed......

    Oh, and as for launching - I haven't even taught her, and I won't in that car. She can learn in the plain 944 for the day she gets her big V8 that "sounds almost like it's gonna break down". LOL That's what she says, she likes hearing it cam (is that the right word)... I don't ever launch the car. I'll never gas it unless I'm completely off the clutch and rolling. I'm in no mood to change a clutch on a car I've never been under working on.

    Oh, and 2 more things guys. - Pops and bangs? What the hell is that? I asked why there were 2 tunes - they said "one is pops and bangs the other isn't" .... do they mean the backfire sound ??
    and secondly - that makes me remember that I did enjoy the sound of putting a dual port wastegate on the 944T and the better blow-off valve.... worth looking into?

    Or I guess I could say

    "Where do I go from here" Like, are there any upgrades that serve the daul purpose of actually helping the car either economically or with keeping it cool or lasting longer that also help power? I'm telling myself I'm not gonna go crazy, but I can't help but wonder what NO Cat, and maybe better downpipe would be like? Loss of back pressure and torque? In AL they don't care about emissions, but i'm not trying to start a global warming argument or anything... just talking here.

    This forum is just great, I appreciate how polite and fast everyone is. You guys are knowledgeable, patient... everything. I really do appreciate that more than I can express here.

    And Yes, I've had my end of the weak round of drinks. =)

  4. #23
    Senior Member aelfwyne's Avatar
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    Pops & Bangs are just for fun. They can be .... aggressive. I personally stay away from P&B tunes. Tried it, my engine "coincidentally" stalled within 60 seconds of the first pops & bangs I experienced, and not long after I lost an exhaust valve. Everyone swears it wasn't the tune, and I had other issues it could have been. But I remain suspicious.
    2015 Rosso Abarth - MAD FIAT - 5 Speed - Phase 2
    2015 Granito Lucente 500T - Proyecto Estupido (Salvage) - Auto - OFT Stage 1

  5. #24
    Lifetime Member texanbrit's Avatar
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    P&B is an attempt to mimic rally cars fitted with anti-lag systems, where you would get ferocious explosions on lift off as the car detonated fuel in the manifold to keep the turbo spinning.

    No performance benefit. Your neighbors will likely hate it. Can be fun.
    2013 500c Abarth - NGEN Turbo
    2012 500 Pop - daily
    2014 500L - Family
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