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2013 fiat 500 Pop, P1064 P106B P0304 - Page 2
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Thread: 2013 fiat 500 Pop, P1064 P106B P0304

  1. #11
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    Thanks Kelly
    OK, I took out the battery tray and located those grounds. There is a braided copper wire that connects to the chassis and to the tranny. I cleaned both ends and reattached the Neg battery cable to that chassis bolt. there were 2 other grounds that attach in same area that come out of one of the harness'. Cleaned those up good :-).
    I also checked the fuse box under the hood. There was a 10a fuse that was missing in F09 > Powertrain. So I replaced that.
    Buttoned it up and after a few tries. it wouldn't start. I put it in neutral as well as held down the brake and it started. Yay....but...Clearly misfiring. Took a few attempts to have it stay lit.
    The check engine light was blinking and "Have your Engine Checked" surfaced across the instrument cluster. Can't really tell if there was vapor coming from the tail pipe but I think so. then again there was all of that unburned gas, whew...Judging by the fact that the reservoir is loaded with the liquid copper crap, i'm going to assume the last guy was trying to remedy a blown head gasket. I will need to flush the system as well...

    I will get down to the spark plugs tomorrow and see what I find. Juicy, Steam Cleaned, gassy ???
    Can you do a compression check if the oil solenoids in the brick are bad?

    Has anyone seen a good video of getting the head off of the 500 pop?

    I'm getting a new code after starting it.

    P0300 - MULTIPLE CYLINDER MISFIRE


    Thanks for reading my update, and that for the advice. It helped get the car "started" !

  2. #12
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    It could very well have a blown head gasket, hopefully didn't slip time from bad timing belt or adjuster. Now that you got it to fire, maybe see if it will idle and smooth out. The moisture coming out of the tail pipe may just be condensation build up. Also, check the dipstick to make sure the oil doesn't look like a chocolate milkshake. If you have milkshake oil: blown head gasket, cracked cylinder wall, or cracked head.

    Honestly, having replaced the head on my wife's 2012 500 Sport, I would recommend buying a low mileage used engine and just swap it out. Especially true if you don't know what other damage has occurred.

    You have two choices to remove the head: 1) remove the entire front grille and sheet metal from the front and everything behind it. That includes evacuating the air conditioning. Disconnect the exhaust system and both front axles and motor mounts. You then can rotate the engine and transmission toward the open front of the car away from the firewall. Then you can remove everything off the rear of the head and the head. Option 2): Jack up the entire car three feet above the floor and drop the entire drivetrain out the bottom. You'll have complete access to pulling the head.

  3. #13
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    Hi Kelly
    The oil looks ok, surprisingly.... right there on the mark at the top of the High/low mark. Looks new.
    Not happy about the very slight gaseous back flow going into the reservoir. Could just be the car while it is heating up with all of that Copper crap in the system....

    You are explaining what it takes to get the head off this car? Dropping the front axles? And motor mounts? Just to lift the head out?
    This is for a head gasket?
    :-/

    I have done "front end service mode" in my 02 mini coper 2x. That is a big deal. But for more serious trans work.

    Is the engine replacement in this car a similar endeavor? And is the AC in the way?

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkyj View Post
    You are explaining what it takes to get the head off this car? Dropping the front axles? And motor mounts? Just to lift the head out?
    This is for a head gasket?
    :-/

    I have done "front end service mode" in my 02 mini coper 2x. That is a big deal. But for more serious trans work.

    Is the engine replacement in this car a similar endeavor? And is the AC in the way?
    Yes, very similar to a Mini. The challenge is the closeness of the rear of the engine to the firewall. You can't get to the fuel rail, injectors, lines, or the other stuff one has to remove to get the head off without moving the entire engine away from the firewall. Even if you want to do something as simple as an alternator replacement, you have to pull an axle, so get used to that.

    It was my experience that by the time you take to disconnect everything to move the engine forward away from the firewall, you may as well just drop the whole thing out the bottom. It's MUCH easier to work on completely out of the car. Given the amount of work to do this, may as well replace some other maintenance items that are tough to reach with the engine and transmission in the car: Timing Belt and Tensioner, Clutch Assembly and Throw-out Bearing, Water Pump, Thermostat, Hoses, Alternator Belt, Etc., If it's a high mileage car, may as well have the alternator and starter rebuilt or replaced too, as they're both stuffed in between the firewall and the lower back of the engine. The air conditioning compressor clutch is another consideration too, considering the compressor is impossible to get to between the engine and firewall. Hopefully you won't need to do all this, but be prepared for the worst and hope for the best.
    Last edited by KellyfromVA; 01-10-2019 at 11:50 AM.

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    sparkyj (01-10-2019)

  6. #15
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    Thanks Kelly,
    I do not have a way to get the car 3 feet off the ground here at home. I have this really tight space a foot off the garage at home and it is outside and in front of the car is a dirt driveway!
    makes for challenging cherry-picking! I will have to remove from the front. Hopefully can leave the automatic trans in place.
    Wonder what it would cost to have someone else do this!

    Would love to see a detailed video of this similar to what #ModMINI creates on YouTube.

    Considerations are:
    1) Can only a 2013 engine work? Any difference year to year? I've read there are.
    2) Will a manual equipped engine bolt right up to the Automatic (would make engine searches easier)
    3) AC evacuation. Would need to find a way to do this since the car is fixed now where it is parked. Driving it on this misfire is a challenge.

  7. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkyj View Post
    Wonder what it would cost to have someone else do this!

    Considerations are:
    1) Can only a 2013 engine work? Any difference year to year? I've read there are.
    2) Will a manual equipped engine bolt right up to the Automatic (would make engine searches easier)
    3) AC evacuation. Would need to find a way to do this since the car is fixed now where it is parked. Driving it on this misfire is a challenge.
    When my wife's 2012 Sport burned an exhaust valve I took it to the stealership to get an estimate for replacing the head, timing belt, water pump, hoses, ect. Even with me sourcing all the parts, the estimate based on the FCA labor flat rate was around $2,300.00. In hindsight having done the work myself, I can truly agree that a shop would be justified in charging that much.

    A complete new factory head with gasket kit was only $400. Water pump, (with a crappy plastic impeller), was almost $150. Gates timing belt was like $60. New tensioner was around $35.

    In spite of running on three cylinders, I drove the car to a local shop and had them evacuate the air conditioning system. The shop credited me the recovered 134A refrigerant, then charged me just for the labor of re-charging of the system after I was done. I believe the cost for removing and replacing the R134A was around $140.

    I didn't do a video for YouTube when I did the work on my wife's 500, which I sort of regret. I did consider doing a video, but having never torn one of these cars apart before, didn't want to risk showing some potential improper techniques, only to get ridiculed by Internet Trolls-self-proclaimed-experts for the rest of my on-line life. Now that I know what to, or not to do, I'd probably go ahead and do an instructional video to help other owners out.

    If I were in your shoes, I'd plan on only using an engine from 2013. There are some subtle differences year to year that could complicate the process. Finding low mileage used engines from junked or rear-ended cars is pretty easy. There are a lot of them out there.

    Regarding replacing an engine from a manual transmission into an automatic: I believe these engines are balanced at the factory with their flywheels (for a manual car) or flex-plate (for an automatic). Trying to remove the donor engine flywheel then replacing it with your existing flex plate might cause a severe out of balance condition.
    Last edited by KellyfromVA; 01-10-2019 at 02:09 PM.

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  9. #17
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    Oh man, the plot thickens. :-)
    Thanks for the reply.
    Dealers out here in LA wants $3935 for a new long block.
    So, you got some OK price quotes...

    Q: Can the valve cover be removed without removing engine? There is a flange from the plastic intake that is located right over the valve cover. ??
    I see guys simple break that part off.
    Maybe it just needs a MultiAir Brick (Why you just can't get separate components for this brick, I don't know)

    So today I did a compression check.
    Spark plugs 1.2.3 look wet, carbon and sort of dry to a flat black while you are holding them.
    Spark plug 4 looks new white and a tad gassy.
    Perhaps last guy fitted new plugs and the #4 still didn't fire, only washing it with gas.

    Cyl 1.2 3 Have good compression ... 190
    Cyl 4 had 30 when I first tested it and after going through all of them, I came back around and 4 tested 0 pressure.
    I am wondering if the brick's little hydraulic lifter too-dads get stuck in the open or closed position or if there is an oil pressure failure if #4 is at the end of the line causing that valve to just go soft...first. Ya know? Or maybe a valve got bent or cracked. Or a spark plug blew up in there and pieces bounced around.

    So 3 good compression Cyls and one bady. If the rings were toast I would think there would be bad compression all around.

    Still need to check the oil pressure though to rule out any bottom end wear, that said, still need to get the head off to prolly see what is going on with cyl 4.

    BTW I hear when getting an engine it is always a good idea to grab the harness too. That is where some of the changes between years are.
    Last edited by sparkyj; 01-11-2019 at 12:01 AM.

  10. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkyj View Post
    Oh man, the plot thickens. :-)
    Thanks for the reply.
    Dealers out here in LA wants $3935 for a new long block.
    So, you got some OK price quotes...
    Yeah I wouldn't even consider buying a new long block for one of these cars when there are an abundance of low mileage used 2013 engines and transmissions available pretty cheap. Spending that kind of money to resurrect a car that's resale value is without doubt less than the cost of a new engine, just doesn't make sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by sparkyj View Post
    Q: Can the valve cover be removed without removing engine? There is a flange from the plastic intake that is located right over the valve cover. ??
    I see guys simple break that part off.
    Maybe it just needs a MultiAir Brick (Why you just can't get separate components for this brick, I don't know)
    Yes, the valve cover can be removed without disconnecting the entire engine. You just need to be careful by not over-prying up on the cover with screwdrivers, or whatever. Best thing to do is carefully work your way around the cover with a putty knife corner. If you can't seem to get it to budge, there still may be missed bolt somewhere.

    You are correct. FCA only sells the complete actuator brick as one unit for all four cylinders and they aren't inexpensive either. There is a specific procedure for priming the assembly with oil before installing.

    Quote Originally Posted by sparkyj View Post
    So today I did a compression check.
    Spark plugs 1.2.3 look wet, carbon and sort of dry to a flat black while you are holding them.
    Spark plug 4 looks new white and a tad gassy.
    Perhaps last guy fitted new plugs and the #4 still didn't fire, only washing it with gas.
    If you found raw fuel on the #4 spark plug seems to indicate the intake valve is stuck open, or actually opening. That would reduce the chances of the hydraulic valve opening solenoid having failed. If you're getting fuel into that cylinder, I would look for a cracked cylinder wall, cracked head, bent intake valve, or edge-blown head gasket. I believe you had also suspected the coolant system was being contaminated with fuel-air anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by sparkyj View Post
    I am wondering if the brick's little hydraulic lifter too-dads get stuck in the open or closed position or if there is an oil pressure failure if #4 is at the end of the line causing that valve to just go soft...first. Ya know? Or maybe a valve got bent or cracked. Or a spark plug blew up in there and pieces bounced around.
    Anything's possible I suppose. I've never heard of a multi-air valve actuator being stuck in the open position. If I were you, I'd see if I could borrow or purchase a fiber optic bore scope, remove that spark plug and visually inspect that cylinder. If you see it's really wet, then you may have coolant in the cylinder. If you see the top of the piston looks beat up, then a bent intake valve, cracked piston, or cracked cylinder wall would be evident.

    Quote Originally Posted by sparkyj View Post
    BTW I hear when getting an engine it is always a good idea to grab the harness too. That is where some of the changes between years are.
    Sure, that might make the installation go a little easier. Assuming you buy a used engine from a 2013, the harness should transfer-over easy enough.
    Last edited by KellyfromVA; 01-11-2019 at 11:37 AM.

  11. #19
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    Thanks K
    I met someone who works at a Fiat place who had some parts and he offered to try and help.
    After a few tests it was evident we could go engine replacement or try and swap out a usable brick. After a few bricks, he managed to get the misfiring on cylinder 4 to go away. First brick caused a misfire on cylinder 2 fyi.
    So it is running. :-)

    He drained the radiator and because it had a copious amount of copper sealant crap in there, I think I need to flush it again. It smells weird. As well there is still a slight misting at the tailpipe.
    I don't know if this is usual and customary behavior for a Fiat that has been sitting for months without running and prior misfire issues.

    may have to just drive it around for a day and see what manifests. This could be condensation. It has been raining here in LA . (imagine that)

    To be continued... :-)

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  13. #20
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    Good luck and keep us posted! Kelly is a great resource since he's one of the few folks here who has really done some serious work on the 500.

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