2013 fiat 500 Pop, P1064 P106B P0304

[KellyfromVA]

OK,

Is there anything other than a blown head gasket that could be tripping this Block Check test fluid?

FYI, oil is clean. There is an audible suction / clicking coming from the passenger side timing cover area that repeats every 20 seconds when idling and warmed up.

The clicking is probably just a solenoid opening and closing during warm up. Based on what you describe, that's the least of your worries.

As mentioned prior; if you're seeing traces of combustion gasses in the coolant, chances are you have a blown head gasket, cracked head, or cracked block. Just because your oil is clean doesn't mean you don't have coolant transfer into the combustion chamber somewhere.

I once had a Saab 99 with a pin hole coolant leak right behind one of the intake valves. The coolant would be drawn into the cylinder on the intake stroke only. That was a real b*tch to find. Had to pull the head three times before finally discovering that one.

[sparkyj]

I'm leaning toward thinking it might be something like that. I think it goes away once it warms up a bit. I don't think the head comes off this block without dropping the whole engine out the bottom. As well, cam alignment is a real process and involves special tools. Makes my 02 mini look like a cake walk. There is a bit of vacuum - push / pull going on when you remove the oil cap, btw. The only way to know for sure is to pull the head.

Can any of you guys tell me if you see a slight misty vapor in your coolant reservoir when you pop the cap off?

[bryanintowson]

Can't say I've seen any vapor in the overflow tank.

I will say this, there were a few months where I was losing coolant. Took it to the shop for a pressure test and it passed. Eventually I noticed little puddles of coolant intermittently on the driveway. I *think* it was a clamp that was not holding properly. It any event, it stopped. No idea what caused it or why it went away.

[sparkyj]

I DID have a clamp issue! The upper overflow tank hose (larger hose) was weeping and I was getting drips, leaking to ground. Was thrilled when I discovered that. I had a sort of "Eureka!" moment. However there still seems to be an evaporation. Yesterday (in the rain) the car simply went back to the "no-start" issue, and cranking would not get it to light up. I then had the dreaded P0300 random misfire code. I tested the battery and it was 12.5v (no ignition on), 12.2v (ignition on) and down to 10v while cranking. So thinking 'bad battery" I put a charger on it for about 45 minutes, 12v @6a. Then managed to get it started, albeit a LOT of cranking. One of the cyls defiantly sounded dead. Took the battery to Autozone to have it checked. Their portable battery tester device gave a "Battery OK" reading. Hmmm. I don't know if these new testers put the battery under load though..... SOOOO, put the old battery back in last night (in the rain). tested this AM....Car starts. Not a perfect start but it starts and idles fairly normally. So there might be a oil pressure, fuel rail delivery or coil pack issue when there is a slight voltage drop. This of course is in addition to the possible CO2 in the coolant issue. Gads.

[KellyfromVA]

I'm leaning toward thinking it might be something like that. I think it goes away once it warms up a bit. I don't think the head comes off this block without dropping the whole engine out the bottom. As well, cam alignment is a real process and involves special tools. Makes my 02 mini look like a cake walk.

As mentioned in post number 12 of this thread: "You have two choices to remove the head: 1) remove the entire front grille and sheet metal from the front and everything behind it. That includes evacuating the air conditioning. Disconnect the exhaust system and both front axles and motor mounts. You then can rotate the engine and transmission toward the open front of the car away from the firewall. Then you can remove everything off the rear of the head and the head. Option 2): Jack up the entire car three feet above the floor and drop the entire drivetrain out the bottom. You'll have complete access to pulling the head."

Whichever option you choose, it's a b*tch to get the head off these cars. And yes, you will need special tools to remove/replace the timing belt, but that's pretty common for most cars. The tricky thing about modern Fiat's is there are no timing marks to align with. Kind of crappy video quality, but here is a training session in English on what it takes to replace a timing belt on a 1.4L Multiair engine:

[sparkyj]

Thanks Kelly. i saw this video a few times last week and just watched it again.
I think i understand your description now. guess i couldn't get my head around it until now.
Installing a complete low miles motor might not be a bad idea at this point.
I just hope i'm not getting false positives with this block tester.

here's another question: Do these fiats run at an unusually high condensation rate at the exhaust tip?
Wife just took for a drive and after running it for 1/2 hour, when i hold my hand over the exhaust it get moisture on it in a short time.

Mini Cooper doesn't do that.

[KellyfromVA]

here's another question: Do these fiats run at an unusually high condensation rate at the exhaust tip?
Wife just took for a drive and after running it for 1/2 hour, when i hold my hand over the exhaust it get moisture on it in a short time.

My wife's 2012 500 Sport has been relegated to living outside since she primarily commutes in her new Volvo XC60. The Volvo now lives in the garage with my cars and motorcycles. Even with the unusually wet and recently cold weather here in Northern VA. I've been driving the Fiat around running local errands. Can't say I've ever seen all that much exhaust condensation or vapor. Even the other day with the temps in the single digits, there wasn't much water vapor out the exhaust when warming up.

Before replacing the engine, I'd consider doing a coolant system pressure test and maybe a cylinder leakdown test, just to be sure. The fact you have a positive test for combustion products in the coolant, is a pretty good indicator that engine probably has some serious issues. If you REALLY want to keep and drive this car for the long-haul, because the resale value on these cars are one notch over a Yugo, then a low mileage used engine will be your best option.

[sparkyj]

Hey Kelly- Eureka again. The coolant system pressure test idea. Duh. i did this once years ago on my mother-in-laws 95 Lexus sc300 (the worlds most ridiculous intake manifold).
You pressurize the tank and wait about a minute and watch for pressure drop right?

RE: leakdown. I think my weekend dealership mechanic did this test and felt it was ok. And again: compression 190, 190, 190, 180+

Curious how you actually spotted the pin-hole leak in the Saab. Magnifying glass!?

Yes: we drive cars into the ground out here in LA. (and the roads suck!) The 02 Mini Cooper- 206,000 miles - totaled 2x, 1 top end, 3 clutches, one major trans rebuild with parts from UK - (I did work myself) 3 computers, a sucker for punishment. (and you know what? it drives pretty good still). We should get a trophy. :-/

[KellyfromVA]

Hey Kelly- Eureka again. The coolant system pressure test idea. Duh. i did this once years ago on my mother-in-laws 95 Lexus sc300 (the worlds most ridiculous intake manifold).
You pressurize the tank and wait about a minute and watch for pressure drop right?

Correct.

RE: leakdown. I think my weekend dealership mechanic did this test and felt it was ok. And again: compression 190, 190, 190, 180+

A cylinder leak down test isn't quite the same as compression. These engines with multiair valve control systems are tricky and have a specific procedure for testing compression anyway. Cylinder leak-down is like a cooling system pressure test, but with each cylinder. You pressurize each cylinder with compressed air and measure the differential pressure between the in-going and escaping air. Unlike compression, the piston remains in place as you charge the cylinder with air. Leakage is shown on one of the two gauges. A cylinder leak-down test is better for things like determining valve sealing, piston ring, head gasket condition, or cracked cylinder wall.

Curious how you actually spotted the pin-hole leak in the Saab. Magnifying glass!?

Like I mentioned, it took me three times removing the head before discovering how the coolant was getting into the #3 cylinder. After inspecting the differences in the spark plug color and condition, I knew something was going on in that cylinder. Since nothing else seemed obvious, I removed both intake and exhaust valves on cylinder #3. I stood the head up on end and the light caught a tiny drip on the wall behind the intake valve. I wiped the wall out with a rag, and noted another tiny drop forming in the same spot. Next I tilted the head aiming down and stuck a light and inspection mirror could see much clearer and drip forming on the wall behind the valve. Ultimately I took a Dremel tool and routed the hole in the cooling jacket behind the valve to a more defined hole. Next I took the head to an old school welder on Capitol Hill in Seattle who welded-up the hole. Finally I smoothed out the weld with the Dremel stone and put everything back together. Problem solved!

Yes: we drive cars into the ground out here in LA. (and the roads suck!) The 02 Mini Cooper- 206,000 miles - totaled 2x, 1 top end, 3 clutches, one major trans rebuild with parts from UK - (I did work myself) 3 computers, a sucker for punishment. (and you know what? it drives pretty good still). We should get a trophy. :-/

One of my son's works as a Tech for Scanwest Imports in Seattle. For some reason they keep sticking him with any BMW Mini's that come through the door. He's not a fan of working on a Mini for the same reason you mentioned. I told him just wait till you get a Fiat 500 that needs a timing belt, water pump, air conditioning compressor, or anything between the engine and firewall. Ultimately my fatherly advice was just plan on dropping the whole drivetrain out the bottom.

[sparkyj]

K, Can you avoid the AC recharge issue if it comes out the bottom?

Q: Anyone know what engine and years are interchangeable with the 2013 500 Pop?