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500e Battery Degradation?

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  • nvkris
    Junior Member
    • Jan 2017
    • 1

    500e Battery Degradation?

    Hi guys!
    I just got my first 500e, and am stoked! It's a beautiful orange with white'n'orange seats. I love it!!!!!

    i've only had it for 2 months. I bought it used with 10,000 miles on it, so fairly new. I had a concerning observation and I hope some of the senior folks here can help me out...

    Yesterday, I took it for it's first long drive on the highway, with the heater on, and on coming back, the battery gauge showed 20% remaining. I plugged it into my EVSE which has an app that shows you statistics like energy added (eMotorwerks Juicebox). After charging to a 100% from 20%, the EVSE said it added only 11.9KWh of energy....

    If 80% (100-20) of capacity is 11.9KWh,
    100% = (11.9/.8) = 14.75KWh!!!!

    The capacity is supposed to be 24KWh. 14.75 capacity means that it has degraded to 60% capacity?!! Am I doing something wrong here?
  • maximizese
    Senior Member
    • Jan 2017
    • 123

    #2
    I would say keep driving it and perhaps drive it around your place (EVSE) when it gets really low. My guess is that the battery gauge (guessometer) calibration is off. I haven't heard much about battery degradation issues with the liquid-cooled Fiat, which is why I just bought one yesterday.

    Comment

    • CraigM
      Member
      • Sep 2015
      • 54

      #3
      I wish I could help you, but I just don't know.

      im guessing since it's a used 500e that you don't have the "Fiat Access" app on your phone? It gives a readout of kHw used and kWh/mile calculation. If you could get the Fiat Access app to work, you might do another road trip and see what the app tells you?

      craig

      Comment

      • jlassen
        Member
        • Nov 2016
        • 32

        #4
        How much time did it take to add that 80%? There is a pretty fixed rate at which your charger can charge (depending on its amperage).

        I would also look at amount of energy used per trip... and see if that matches up with what you are getting from the EVSE charge info... did you USE 11.9Kwh on that drive?

        another thought. You can be at zero percent on the gauge, and still have energy in the battery (ask me how I know... or take a look at my most recent post). That gauge is a very conservative estimate.. so that when Mr. Slow turtle comes on, drives still have enough energy to get somewhere safe.

        Comment

        • rnddude
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2013
          • 538

          #5
          The battery gauge % is pretty accurate, the range readout is not to be trusted as it is an estimation based on the current conditions (speed, terrain, temperature, accessory use, wind, etc.)
          2013 500e Sport, Nero Metallic, all Abarth suspension, 17" Michi's, Koni Yellows, HID's

          Comment

          • jlassen
            Member
            • Nov 2016
            • 32

            #6
            My battery gauge drops 4 % from 100 to 96 just by turning on the car and going 3 blocks.
            Not sure what its measuring... but at extream ends of the gauge, I'm not sure I trust it. Like I said... You can go a bit while at 0%. which means its not entirely based on the full charge of the battery.

            Comment

            • maximizese
              Senior Member
              • Jan 2017
              • 123

              #7
              Roll call:
              Anyone with measurable degradation in range or battery capacity? If so, what's your mileage, charging habits, and climate? We have 45K miles on a 2013 model that gets level 2 charged to full, twice a day. It generally is driven from Orange County to Century City and back each day. No signs of degradation so far.

              Comment

              • Ricksuiter
                Senior Member
                • Jun 2017
                • 196

                #8
                Consider that just because the battery is 24kWh capacity does not mean you get to use all 24kWh. The car in all likelihood limits the depth of discharge (DOD) to some degree to maximize battery life. Taking it down 100% all the time would degrade the battery faster as does charging the battery full. In general usable battery capacity goes down in colder weather also. There is a heating loop on the battery, but it only works when the car is either charging or the key is on so if the car is fully charged and sits in the cold for a while you will lose more range from having to run the battery heater loop. I know this would show up on the kWh number.

                My 2014 seems to have lost maybe a few miles overall, this is expected considering it's four years old now. Right now the guess o meter is showing the high 90's for miles in the morning after a full charge. I expect to see it go a bit closer to 110 miles which is incredible considering the EPA estimate is 87 miles.

                Comment

                • Dmitry
                  Junior Member
                  • Oct 2018
                  • 1

                  #9
                  Originally posted by maximizese
                  Roll call:
                  Anyone with measurable degradation in range or battery capacity? If so, what's your mileage, charging habits, and climate? We have 45K miles on a 2013 model that gets level 2 charged to full, twice a day. It generally is driven from Orange County to Century City and back each day. No signs of degradation so far.
                  Is there a charging station somewhere in Century city? I'm about to move to LA for work and my office will be in Century City, and I'm thinking of buying 500e. PLease advise! Thanks!

                  Comment

                  • maximizese
                    Senior Member
                    • Jan 2017
                    • 123

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Dmitry
                    Is there a charging station somewhere in Century city? I'm about to move to LA for work and my office will be in Century City, and I'm thinking of buying 500e. PLease advise! Thanks!
                    There are plenty of charging stations. My wife's garage has 12 of them and hasn't had an availability issue yet. I would suggest you look on plugshare or the chargepoint website/app to see the charging stations availability in the area. Just to update, we hit 62K miles and still no sign of any battery degradation.

                    Comment

                    • VeeDubTDI
                      Senior Member
                      • Mar 2017
                      • 135

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Dmitry
                      Is there a charging station somewhere in Century city? I'm about to move to LA for work and my office will be in Century City, and I'm thinking of buying 500e. PLease advise! Thanks!
                      Check out http://www.plugshare.com and filter by the type of station you're looking for (in this case, J-1772). There's also a phone app availalbe.
                      2013 Fiat 500e

                      Comment

                      • Marty
                        Junior Member
                        • Feb 2014
                        • 3

                        #12
                        Have 2016 500E with 20K miles. I have recently noticed that after driving fully charged for 5-10 miles the miles left goes to 67 miles. It has done this 3 times now.
                        This never happened before. I charge to full with both Level 1 and Level 2 chargers. Could it be a calibration or sensor issue? Just want to make sure the batteries are holding a charge correctly....Any advise or comments would be most appreciated. Thanks, Marty S.

                        Comment

                        • ga2500ev
                          Member
                          • Oct 2017
                          • 63

                          #13
                          What's the temperature? Temp severely affects the range meter, or more aptly named guess-o-meter (GOM). The GOM uses recent efficiency and current driving data to determine its guess of remaining range. Because of battery heating when it's cold, when a 500e first fires off in cold weather the efficiency is terrible. So the GOM rapidly drops its guess on the range.

                          On a typical 35 degree day here in Georgia, I can start off at home with the range meter sitting at 91 or 92. Within a mile it's dropped to 85-86 and within 5 miles it's down below 70 miles of range showing.
                          It'll drop even faster if the heat is on. But once the battery warms the up arrow on the GOM will activate and the range will either hold for several miles or even rise after that. This is based on the fact the the efficiency of the warmer battery is improving the potential range.

                          I know it's annoying, but it's simply not possible to trust the GOM to give anything close to accurate information. It shows 60 miles left when you are getting on the highway and push the 500e to 77 MPH. That 60 miles will drop like a brick within 3-5 miles at that speed.

                          ga2500ev

                          Comment

                          • FiatCares
                            Fiat Top Care Specialist
                            • Mar 2012
                            • 1378

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Marty
                            Have 2016 500E with 20K miles. I have recently noticed that after driving fully charged for 5-10 miles the miles left goes to 67 miles. It has done this 3 times now.
                            This never happened before. I charge to full with both Level 1 and Level 2 chargers. Could it be a calibration or sensor issue? Just want to make sure the batteries are holding a charge correctly....Any advise or comments would be most appreciated. Thanks, Marty S.
                            Hello Marty,
                            I certainly understand why this would be concerning. If you are unable to determine the cause of this with the assistance of fellow forum members, I suggest connecting with your certified dealer as they are in the best position to assist. If you decide to go this route, please know that we are available via private message if you are in need of any assistance with that process.
                            Laura
                            FiatCares
                            To start a conversation, click our username then select the ‘private message’ icon and send us your make, model year, and mileage for us to review. Staffed M-F 7:30am-5:30pm EST by the Stellantis Social Engagement Team.

                            Comment

                            • PLP
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2016
                              • 602

                              #15
                              Originally posted by ga2500ev
                              What's the temperature? Temp severely affects the range meter, or more aptly named guess-o-meter (GOM). The GOM uses recent efficiency and current driving data to determine its guess of remaining range. Because of battery heating when it's cold, when a 500e first fires off in cold weather the efficiency is terrible. So the GOM rapidly drops its guess on the range.

                              On a typical 35 degree day here in Georgia, I can start off at home with the range meter sitting at 91 or 92. Within a mile it's dropped to 85-86 and within 5 miles it's down below 70 miles of range showing.
                              It'll drop even faster if the heat is on. But once the battery warms the up arrow on the GOM will activate and the range will either hold for several miles or even rise after that. This is based on the fact the the efficiency of the warmer battery is improving the potential range.

                              I know it's annoying, but it's simply not possible to trust the GOM to give anything close to accurate information. It shows 60 miles left when you are getting on the highway and push the 500e to 77 MPH. That 60 miles will drop like a brick within 3-5 miles at that speed.

                              ga2500ev


                              Well, I am not sure about that.

                              As I mentioned earlier, I have been using ScanGauge to monitor battery/charger/motor parameters. One of them is HV battery temperature. It also reports the cooling/heating loop inlet/outlet temperatures.
                              I have found that no matter how cold it was, the battery would not be heated. Sure, it would warm up itself by charge/discharge cycles when driving, but the battery heating loop will not kick in at all.

                              The lowest temp I found of the battery was +25 F with ambient being around +15 F.
                              However, when charging the heater turns on.
                              There are two stages it turns on, though. One when you plug in and walk away (ignition off) then the heater is at about 2 kW.
                              However, when you are sitting in the car when plugged in, say ignition is ON, then the heater kicks in at 7-8 kW and tries to increase the battery temp very quickly. The loop would easily hit over 100 F. Max I recorded was slightly over 120 F (inlet).


                              With this being said - I did notice a quick range drop after fully charged. I guess that is a quick adjustment to what battery management thinks will happen based on the current conditions.
                              Keep in mind a few things.
                              When you take off with full charge, regen braking is very limited and actually not available for the first 2-5%. Then it is up to 10 kW or so.
                              Add cabin heating - the range will be adjusted accordingly. This one is very peculiar, because it takes a large power draw in the first minutes to ramp up the temp inside and then it goes into steady, med/low load.


                              Finally, I personally NEVER reached the range presented by the meter.
                              I had a few times shown 122 miles after full charge. I could squeeze max 80 miles and that was coming back with over 160 MPGe average and 2% left. What that tells me is that the battery has some degradation in capacity. My current capacity reported by the battery management system is at 49.9 Ah. To get kWh from it, multiply Ah by number of batteries (94 cells) and their nominal voltage (or fully charged voltage, 4.25 V vs 3.75 - nominal). I get 20 kWh or 17.5 kWh for nominal voltage.
                              I believe FIAT used the 4.05 V not 3.75 V as otherwise you will get 22 kWh vs 24 kWh.
                              Another explanation could be - it is truly 22 kWh battery, but to recharge it it takes 24 kWh... You loose about 10% when charging.


                              Sorry for long post. It might help a bit.
                              Current rides: 2003 Porsche Boxster, 2019 Chevy Bolt LT, 2016 Audi Q5 Premium
                              Previous rides: 2014 FIAT 500e, 2016 KIA Forte5 SX 1.6 T-GDI, A/T, 2016 FIAT 500X Trekking Plus AWD, 2015 KIA Forte5 SX 1.6 T-GDI, M/T, and many more...

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