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FCA says "We don't cheat" - Page 2
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Thread: FCA says "We don't cheat"

  1. #11
    Chief Car Looker Upperer Lifetime Member Andree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rnddude View Post
    On a mostly unrelated note, I am an avid cyclist, and follower of pro cycling. Seems no to long ago we had a 7 time TDF winner repeating endlessly "I have never tested positive for performance enhancing drugs." which was mostly true. It was a cagey way of saying "I have never been caught". Look what became of him once the truth final came out....
    That was in one of the articles, although I don't remember which one. Regarding the accountability and how ANYONE can be the whistle blower that causes the Goliath to fall. The article also included errors made on what had been a widely regarded research paper.

    Ah, here it is "Warning for every Company" at Forbes:
    http://www.forbes.com/sites/forbesle...every-company/

  2. #12
    Senior Member rnddude's Avatar
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    Turns out VW is not alone. The same independent company that discovered the VW issue has found that just about EVERYONE's diesel offerings are not meeting emission ratings in real world driving. Hmmmm....how does that happen other than with some active device installed to dial back emission settings when not being tested? This problem is going to get much, much bigger for the automobile manufacturers. BTW, the jeep diesels also were listed as one of the offenders, so that FCA "we don't cheat" is falling rather flat.

    http://www.marketwatch.com/story/ano...yhoof2&ref=yfp
    Last edited by rnddude; 10-12-2015 at 09:38 AM.
    2013 500e Sport, Nero Metallic, all Abarth suspension, 17" Michi's, Koni Yellows, HID's

  3. #13
    Chief Car Looker Upperer Lifetime Member Andree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rnddude View Post
    Turns out VW is not alone. The same independent company that discovered the VW issue has found that just about EVERYONE's diesel offerings are not meeting emission ratings in real world driving. Hmmmm....how does that happen other than with some active device installed to dial back emission settings when not being tested? This problem is going to get much, much bigger for the automobile manufacturers. BTW, the jeep diesels also were listed as one of the offenders, so that FCA "we don't cheat" is falling rather flat.

    http://www.marketwatch.com/story/ano...yhoof2&ref=yfp
    There's apparently a difference between VW and the rest:

    "In contrast with what the EPA called “deliberate” cheating on the part of Volkswagen, the illegal emissions found from the other company’s cars were not associated with “illegal activity,” The Guardian writes. But regardless, the cars performed better in the lab than on the road.

    The on-road tests from Emissions Analytics revealed that Honda’s diesel models emitted between 2.6 and six times the levels of NOx pollution recorded by EU government lab tests. “Honda tests vehicles in accordance with European legislation,” a Honda spokesperson told The Guardian.

    Mitsubishi diesel cars, meanwhile, produced between 1.5 and 3.4 higher NOx emissions on the road than they did in the lab. The company was blunt when faced with the data. EU’s official lab-based emissions test for vehicles, called the NEDC, “was never intended to represent real-world driving,” a spokesman for the automaker told The Guardian."

    via: http://www.newsweek.com/mercedes-ben...s-tests-381636

    And from the company that did the research:

    "From the data, we can see a number of manufacturers achieving exceedances of two to three times official NOx levels in real-world driving. While this is still represents an excess of NOx, these manufacturers such as Mitsubishi, Mercedes and Honda (among others) are out-performing the market average. What this means is that, if the new Euro 6 regulations do turn out to be tough, they will be best placed to achieve compliance quickly. This may turn out to be an important commercial advantage, in re-establishing consumer confidence in their diesel models."

    http://emissionsanalytics.com/is-air...et-to-improve/

    Two to three times is vastly different from ten to forty times with the intent to deceive.

    And this article is spot-on, Do We Blame Poor Testing or Automakers For High Emissions?

    "Speaking to The Detroit Bureau, the head of Emissions Analytics, Nick Molden, said The Guardian implied illegal activity when "no one has any hard evidence of anyone doing anything clearly illegal."

    To be clear, The Guardian does clarify, "There is no evidence of illegal activity, such as the 'defeat devices' used by Volkswagen."

    Molden said the problem is a testing process with "a lot of loopholes" in it. He said most emissions tests – especially European ones – don't simulate the more demanding conditions found in the real world, which means vehicles emit less pollutants in testing than they do in the real world."

    http://www.theindychannel.com/newsy/...high-emissions

    So, yes, a vehicle can pollute more in real life than it does in shop testing. Without using illegal defeat devices. It would seem that the testing is lacking and does not duplicate real world emissions. Therefore, it would be best to have all models tested in real world conditions. Some will argue that there will be no exact science to "real world testing" as it is variable. Multiple passes may be required on a test track at different times of day or season.

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    Senior Member rnddude's Avatar
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    Without a doubt the lab tests are more stringent than real world conditions, and one could argue that they are fine because they set a metric for compliance that applies to all makers equally, in spite of what happens in the real world. However, isn't the lab data what carmakers tout when they brag about their cars eco-friendliness? The problem with lab testing that doesn't truly mimic the real world is that it forces automakers to tweak their engines to produce good emission numbers during the testing, often at the expense of real world emissions. One might argue that setting (and perhaps lowering) testing protocols to be more like real world driving might let carmakers create cars with emission levels LOWER that what we are now seeing actually happening. It seems that the current emission standards are making carmakers "game" their settings to pass the tests, perhaps at the expense of what consumers get in the real world.
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    Chief Car Looker Upperer Lifetime Member Andree's Avatar
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    It's kind of tough. See, I'd reckon emissions are similar to mpg. It's going to depend on where you are and what you do. What is my reality is not your reality. And what my new reality is for mpg in Arizona is so much better than when I lived in a city with stop and go traffic in California. Which one of those three "realities" is the REAL one? They all are.

    Whose mpg is the most accurate? They all are. They are completely dependent on where we are and what we need to do.

    So the person in the Jeep diesel who tows up and down hills and carries a full passenger load will probably have both the crappy mpg and the crappy emissions. There is a maximum for testing, and it seems most vehicles will exceed the maximum in the "real world" wherever that may be. So, the question is, do we lower the testing maximum? Or do we do real world testing, and work on that number to be lower?

    I'd go for the real world to be lower, when possible. Which may mean lowering the testing number, or creating more accurate testing better to simulate real world conditions. There can be an "ideal" test track that at least has some flat spots and some hill spots. Where vehicles can be tested with just a driver, and with a full passenger and cargo load.

    Average the three. The in-shop testing. The track testing with just a driver. And the track testing with a full load (as stated by the manufacturer).

    What you may end up with is number that is right in the middle of how the vehicle may perform. Not everyone drives with a full load. Not everyone drives by themselves. Could be lower or higher.

    I suppose they could set an absolute max under full load. That might be the easiest way. If an auto can carry a full load of 900 pounds of passengers, driver, and cargo, test the vehicle with that load on level roads and hilly roads.

    Can't do much about how people drive their cars though.

  7. #16
    He is a little bits nuts...
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    its life

    Why bother selling , you loved the car the day before the scandal broke , it hasn't changed overnight into a tractor. I just said in another thread, most diesel in ENGLAND are tuned with a $80 tuning box to get more speed and fuel consumption we just unplug them at emission test time , Nobody is bothered what there pumping out there back end , look how many different cars have VW diesel engines, SEAT , SKODA ect ect they don't seem that bothered / its yesterday news

  8. #17
    Senior Member Amacento's Avatar
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    I am a lifelong fan of select VW models. The missus & I were seriously considering one a few months prior to this news. Completely unrelated to this report, we've decided on another brand.

    Bottom line is the closest brands have come to VWs 40 times the limit are the Japanese brands with 4-6 times the limit. Now, as stated in the articles, the Japanese brands comply with EU regs. They didn't cheat. Likewise, I 'm sure the Jeeps in question had EU tunes. FIAT doesn't sell diesels here. We know those had to be EU options that comply with EU regs. So, no, FIAT doesn't cheat.

    I recall, early on, my LS would always point out FIAT's epa & mpg number reporting as a negative... meaning their numbers were too high to be truly competitive. Also, the reported numbers always seemed worse than real world numbers. Well, I'm happy they report on a transparent level. 'Better to sell based on the worse case scenario than feel forced to scheme to comply.

    Finally, I guaranty more than a handful of engineers knew what was going on. I'm not that naive. VW has been getting away with a lot of nonsense for a very long time. It isn't reported outside of Europe much, but it's all there on record.
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