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View Full Version : FINALLY! Some real tires!



jguerdat
05-20-2013, 02:15 PM
6322

Dunlop Direzza Z2s. Tried a couple of halfhearted launches to scrub mold release from them and they obviously won't melt like Pirellis. Have an event this Saturday so they should get well scrubbed in.

BTW, while I'm thinking about it, make sure your climate control is not set to any mode that includes the defroster. The A/C runs as long as the defrost vents are active. No sense in losing power when you need it most...

Abarth Five O
05-20-2013, 02:32 PM
Nice tread design! Should be good for the track and street.

abarth&911
05-20-2013, 03:07 PM
Nice, did you took them in the size of 215/40/17 ?

When the Pirelli are gone that's what I am thinking to buy. Not much choice anyway in our size.
I just ordered a set today of BFG Rival to put on my Miata for the next track event in June.
I check if those wheel (15") fit the Abarth but the center bore is too small, otherwise all the other measurement
and clearance look good. It will have been a nice set of wheel/tire for autocross.

Let us know how they are after your event Saturday.

FTY
05-20-2013, 03:09 PM
:burnout::burnout:Very nice....experience in handling totally changes with good tires....an upgrade often overlooked. Have fun on saturday!

Robert Nixon
05-20-2013, 03:57 PM
where did you find those tires? Local place or national dealer?

shagghie
05-20-2013, 04:22 PM
Nice, did you took them in the size of 215/40/17 ?

When the Pirelli are gone that's what I am thinking to buy. Not much choice anyway in our size.
I just ordered a set today of BFG Rival to put on my Miata for the next track event in June.
I check if those wheel (15") fit the Abarth but the center bore is too small, otherwise all the other measurement
and clearance look good. It will have been a nice set of wheel/tire for autocross.

Let us know how they are after your event Saturday.

which 15" wheels did you check btw?

jguerdat
05-20-2013, 04:24 PM
Tire rack in the 215/40_17 size. There's so few models available in either 16" or 17" that I had to go with these (the AD08s are an older tire that don't seem to be able to keep up with the new releases and are the only other tire that is suitable without raising the car by at least half an inch). I was watching the Rivals but there doesn't seem to be anything in the pipes that suit so I just made the plunge here.

These are rumored to be somewhat "peaky" with great longitudinal grip. Pressures seem to make a difference in that peak with lower pressures said to broaden the peak so I'll be trying a range. I tend to be a smooth driver so a narrow peak may not be an issue as long as I don't overdrive them. And the longitudinal grip should put to rest any concern about using ESC fully off, with the grip at least like limiting wheelspin although I have yet to have an issue with that (again, maybe due to my smoother style).

Saturday is currently predicted to be partly to mostly sunny and low to mid-60s. Since there'll be two drivers, we shouldn't have an issue with overheating. My real test will be next month with an SCCA event where the majority of the best drivers run. Beating up on some BMWs (this event is a BMW club one) isn't that hard with the exception one one guy in particular. I'll report back in any event...

shagghie
05-20-2013, 04:31 PM
Tire rack in the 215/40_17 size. There's so few models available in either 16" or 17" that I had to go with these (the AD08s are an older tire that don't seem to be able to keep up with the new releases and are the only other tire that is suitable without raising the car by at least half an inch). I was watching the Rivals but there doesn't seem to be anything in the pipes that suit so I just made the plunge here.

These are rumored to be somewhat "peaky" with great longitudinal grip. Pressures seem to make a difference in that peak with lower pressures said to broaden the peak so I'll be trying a range. I tend to be a smooth driver so a narrow peak may not be an issue as long as I don't overdrive them. And the longitudinal grip should put to rest any concern about using ESC fully off, with the grip at least like limiting wheelspin although I have yet to have an issue with that (again, maybe due to my smoother style).

Saturday is currently predicted to be partly to mostly sunny and low to mid-60s. Since there'll be two drivers, we shouldn't have an issue with overheating. My real test will be next month with an SCCA event where the majority of the best drivers run. Beating up on some BMWs (this event is a BMW club one) isn't that hard with the exception one one guy in particular. I'll report back in any event...

Dood awesome. Cannot wait to see how you like them and what pressures you end up with. I know down here in SD, the D1's are the most popular tire by far, with a few of the top guys recently trying out the D2's with jury still in the air as to which is better. From conversations, sounds like neither is a 'better' tire, but one might slightly suit some driving styles more than the other on balance. D1's getting harder and harder to source, too.

trevc
05-20-2013, 04:49 PM
I am very interested on how you do with these.
Tire rack told me the Dunlop Direzza ZII did not have a high enough load rating for the Abarth and instead recommended to me the BFGoodrich g-Force T/A KDW 2 in the 215-40ZR17.

shagghie
05-20-2013, 04:51 PM
I am very interested on how you do with these.
Tire rack told me the Dunlop Direzza ZII did not have a high enough load rating for the Abarth and instead recommended to me the BFGoodrich g-Force T/A KDW 2 in the 215-40ZR17.

Don't quote me on this, but I think it's ok to run a tire with 'not enough load rating' on an auto-x track with higher PSI's without any concerns. Anyone care to validate that statement...?

abarth&911
05-20-2013, 07:32 PM
which 15" wheels did you check btw?

My Miata wheels are Kazera KZ-M 15X7 you can see them on a lot of Spec Miata.
The back spacing was within 1/8” of the Abarth wheel. They are 4X100 so I will have needed wobble bolt if they will have fit. On the rear they will have been close to the to sway bar bracket, stick on weight for wheel balancing might have been a problem if in the path of the bracket.

As for load rating, I think also it should be ok; after all there is only 28lbs difference between the ZII and the stock P Zero.
But I’m no expert, maybe someone here knows more about those rating.

jguerdat
05-21-2013, 07:29 AM
Dood awesome. Cannot wait to see how you like them and what pressures you end up with. I know down here in SD, the D1's are the most popular tire by far, with a few of the top guys recently trying out the D2's with jury still in the air as to which is better. From conversations, sounds like neither is a 'better' tire, but one might slightly suit some driving styles more than the other on balance. D1's getting harder and harder to source, too.

Tirerack only lists 6 sizes still available in the Z1s with none suitable for the Abarth. Their preliminary review indicates the Z2 is an evolutionary step forward. Others have said that a Z1 setup won't work well for the Z2. Since I don't have a setup for either, there's no issue. Greater longitudinal grip should help with wheelspin and braking with lateral grip seeming to be slightly greater.

In any case, they should be a huge step forward over the Pirellis...

jguerdat
05-21-2013, 07:41 AM
I am very interested on how you do with these.
Tire rack told me the Dunlop Direzza ZII did not have a high enough load rating for the Abarth and instead recommended to me the BFGoodrich g-Force T/A KDW 2 in the 215-40ZR17.

I'm specifically going for the stiff sidewalls and performance that the KDW doesn't offer. The load rating for the Pirelli is 1102 lbs vs. 1074 lbs. for the Z2. I'm not sweating the difference, especially given the small (28 lb.) difference in the rating.

From Tirerack's description of load rating (http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=195):


Tire Specs Explained: Maximum Load

A tire's maximum load is the most weight the tire is designed to carry. Since a tire's load carrying capacity is related to the tire's size and how much inflation pressure is actually used, maximum loads are rated with the tire inflated to an industry assigned inflation pressure.

Additionally, load ranges are used to separate tires that share the same physical size, but differ in strength due to their internal construction. "Higher" load ranges are used to identify tires that have a stronger internal construction, and therefore can hold more air pressure and carry more weight.

End quote

So, tire construction plays an important part in the rating but both have virtually the same maximum air pressure (50 vs 51 psi) and the Z2 most assuredly has a stronger carcass than the Pirelli. This isn't a heavy car so I don't see why an XL load rating would be spec'ed. Maybe it was just the only tire size they wanted to use and just happened to be an XL?

jguerdat
05-26-2013, 08:23 AM
Ok, had a chance to think about stuff and try to organize my thoughts. We went to a BMW club autocross yesterday with the new tires (~100 miles on them, not really scrubbed in other than a couple of light launches and road miles). We parked next to a known BMW driver who also had Z2s who told me that his car liked the lower pressures, around 32 psi. He pointed out what truly appears to be a line where the good rubber ends as the tread wraps over towards the wear indicators and suggested we want to stay above that line. With that in mind, I decided to start with 38f/48r.

It quickly became apparent that there was no way I was lowering pressures - the fronts were rolling to the bottom of the wear indicators. The rears were fine all day and just tried adjusting them to my own taste with no concern whatever about rollover (went as high as 53 psi with no real difference based on times and personal feel). I started marking the sidewalls and went as high as 43 psi with virtually the same rollover - the marks were disappearing. End of story, I need to try lowering pressures just to see what happens. I was concentrating on trying to eliminate rollover so I never did pressures lower than 38 psi. Since the rollover happened regardless of the pressures, maybe it would be useful to carefully reduce pressure until the rollover starts to increase. I'll try that at the next event.

Performance-wise, I was pleased. I think I'm still over-driving the fronts (hence some of the rollover and the possibility that lower pressures could work as well or better) but was trying to control my driving to allow the fronts to grip. Comparing my times to others was difficult since many of the cars weren't regular autocrossers and the classing was BMW, Porsche, Mini and Others with no regard to modifications. It's too easy to say that I beat any particular car without regard to considering driver and preparation. So, I tried looking only at the people I could expect to see at an SCCA event and use their normal classes so I could calculate PAX index differences. While I ended up with 7 BMWs (at least a few running non-stock SCCA classing) and 4 Others beating me in raw times, putting me in 5th in the Others class, applying PAX to the results puts me in second by half the amount of time that I had been previously been beaten by the same driver in PAX times (BS STi with Rivals driven by a very good, aggressive driver), leaving me about 0.7 seconds behind him. There was also what would have been an HS Mini that I raw-timed but the index snuck him in halfway between the STi and myself (HS PAX is almost always a killer!). So, it appears that the tires have cut a significant amount of time compared to the stock P-Zero Neros, which is no surprise. I would highly recommend these tires for anyone competing in a road tire class, especially given the lack of anything else truly comparable.

A final note, it's obvious the car needs more negative camber. I have the Neu-F rear bar on as my only mod but the potential for understeer is still there (I have to train myself to use trail-braking) and, more specifically, the sidewall rollover issue is best addressed by much more camber. Camber bolts will be added when legal (next year unless the proposed rules change that) and I'll start at -2.5 to -3 degrees. That should allow the tires to bite using their whole surface.

Here are pictures of the right side tires (the kart track was almost exclusively left turns):

6412

The above is the front tire. Note the chalk mark that isn't visible before the sidewall itself as well as the line where the good stuff stops. Yes, there's a wear indicator right where the chalk mark is - look carefully.

6413

Rear tire for comparison.

jguerdat
05-26-2013, 11:33 AM
Forgot to say that tire wear for 12 runs was negligible.

jguerdat
05-26-2013, 03:14 PM
PPS (old age) - need to reprogram my foot for launching. The Pirellis spun so easily that I had to limit my launch RPM. These definitely need more RPMs but I only got one launch like I wanted and it needed another 500 RPM for when the tires finally bit. The others were too high and caused a lot of wheels pin that had to be modulated by throttle as well as some hefty "clunks" form (apparently) the motor mounts. I'd guess about 3-3.5k RPMs would be about right, depending on available grip.

abarth&911
05-27-2013, 02:36 PM
Thanks for the feedback, when my P-zero are done il will most likely take them if nothing else is out in our size. I got an AX next Saturday that will put some more wear on the P-Zero. This afternoon i took the Miata out with the new BFG Rival and they look very good, went in the HS parking lot and did a skidpad test in both direction and they grip very good, very easy to control. We have a track event in 3 weeks we will see more there. To bad the Miata wheel doesn't fit on the Abarth i will have put them next Saturday.

Let us know how they do on your next event and what tire pressure you are trying.

jguerdat
05-27-2013, 03:56 PM
Phew! I was beginning to think that no one was interested.

Based on what I've seen so far, the Rival won't be available in a size for an Abarth. It really looks like this will be the tire to have unless someone comes out with new sizes. And, yes, you bet I'll post my pressure trials. My times were pretty consistent after the second run so increasing pressure didn't seem to hurt but no idea how lowering pressures will work out. I'll start out with what I have already used and drop for comparison. Unfortunately that won't be till the end of June - nothing going on before then.

Racerflash
05-28-2013, 09:05 AM
Hey, great to hear someone else got the ZIIs! I bought a set of the 215/40r17s three weeks ago but haven't even driven on them yet! I had bought a used set of stock 17" wheels a few months ago and have been doing research to pick the right tire. I will be using these exclusively for SCCA Autocross and occasional track days. Before the ZIIs were available, tire rack had recommended the Toyo R888s in my size. But, reading the proposed rule changes that may be coming next year, R-Comps may not be allowed in stock class any longer. So, I decided on the Dunlops as they will be legal either way, will last much longer and were cheaper!

I read that the ZIIs should be broken in for about 500 miles before used in competition for the best performance, so I'll finally have time to swap the wheels and run the tires on the street this week. First AutoX with the ZIIs in about 3 weeks.

Let's compare pressures, etc so we can get the fastests times with these new shoes!

- Flash

jguerdat
05-28-2013, 11:07 AM
I didn't have the luxury of break-in miles so I broke them in at the event. :-) R-comps won't be allowed in street class but there may be additional classes (besides SP, etc.) that would allow them. Time will tell with classing. The R888s aren't good autocross tires anyways since they're aimed at track folks. Depends on where you'd get the most benefit.

I will absolutely share pressures since I'm not as sensitive to changes as others are. My times are to be found here (http://gvc-bmwcca.org/_upload/EventResults/2013/05252013_Results.pdf), about halfway down (Jeff Guerdat) so you can try to draw some conclusions on your own. The later runs were pretty consistent but I was trying to either stabilize pressures or increasing them to reduce rollover. I'd suggest starting at 40f and adjusting up or down as you feel works for you. Maybe start off by lowering and then raising them as you have remaining runs since my testing seemed to indicate that raising pressures didn't do anything for times. I'd be interested in your results with rear pressures since you also have the Neu-F rear bar. I went high but maybe would have been better to go low.

trevc
05-28-2013, 11:13 AM
Arena Jenn put up some good times compares to yours!

Racerflash
05-28-2013, 03:20 PM
Will do. The good news is that my son is co-driving my car so we'll have double the runs and two drivers to figure out what's up. At the only event we did so far on the Pirellis and stock rear bar, we had bad understeer, but higher rear pressures seemed to help. Actually have the tires on my car today and feel good so far.

I'll keep in touch,
Flash

redred
05-28-2013, 03:33 PM
The R888s aren't good autocross tires anyways since they're aimed at track folks.

Agreed. The run times in Auto X are far too short to allow the R888's to warm up to their desired operating temperature. When cold those tires do not grip well at all.

jguerdat
05-28-2013, 03:53 PM
Arena Jenn put up some good times compares to yours!

Jen's my daughter (married). She's bound and determined to beat me but hasn't yet. Maybe has something to do with it being my car... :-)

jguerdat
05-28-2013, 04:05 PM
BTW, here's a link to a video of one of Jen's runs - hope it works ok:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=583130688384755&set=vb.100000634867229&type=3

shagghie
05-28-2013, 04:10 PM
BTW, here's a link to a video of one of Jen's runs - hope it works ok:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=583130688384755&set=vb.100000634867229&type=3

Nice! My wife Katy (who normally drives our Prima) got to go out with me at the last event and have her run at the cones... She was REMARKABLY smooth in the slalom portions!
I looked at it like this: If she understands why I want to go faster, she'll be more open to the UPS arriving at the door every week with new parts. I simply refuse to tell her that the reason my Abarth isn't fast enough to win is because of the driver.

Racerflash
05-28-2013, 05:30 PM
Agreed. The run times in Auto X are far too short to allow the R888's to warm up to their desired operating temperature. When cold those tires do not grip well at all.

Yes, I found this out when doing more research about tires. This made me not trust the "tire specialist" who I spoke to at Tire Rack! I especially told him I'd be using mostly for AutoX and occasionally track days. He just wanted to sell tires I guess and those fit the size and diameter I needed, but that's pitiful.

jguerdat
05-28-2013, 06:38 PM
Heh. I had a "specialist" call me after I placed the order for 215/40-17s, asking if I wanted the increase in diameter. I pointed out that the website's specs indicated only a .1" difference after he quoted what was apparently from a chart of calculated diameters. I do trust TR but I prefer to do everything online, doing my own research.

abarth&911
05-29-2013, 09:26 AM
Curious about the diameter, did you compare physically the 2 tire if its like they say within .1"

Thanks

Racerflash
05-29-2013, 09:58 AM
Curious about the diameter, did you compare physically the 2 tire if its like they say within .1"

Thanks

I actually put the two tires together mounted on the same stock wheels (as I have two sets) with the same air pressure. I put a level across the top and actually couldn't even notice the 1/10" difference they are supposed to have???

trevc
05-30-2013, 09:34 AM
I am fairly new to Autocross. It is interesting to see from the different videos how the interpretation of what Autocross is varies widely.
To me first and foremost it is about cones. There should be slaloms (with choice on entry and mandatory entry variations), gates, chicago boxes and turnarounds (mandatory and direction choice). The cones are there to mark the course and measure skill level hence the penalties for knocking over / moving cones.

I guess I am fortunate. We have four different groups all putting on events at various times during the year and all strive to design challenging courses.
We have two good locations with enough space to be able to make the courses a good size.


BTW, here's a link to a video of one of Jen's runs - hope it works ok:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=583130688384755&set=vb.100000634867229&type=3

shagghie
05-30-2013, 12:01 PM
I am fairly new to Autocross. It is interesting to see from the different videos how the interpretation of what Autocross is varies widely.
To me first and foremost it is about cones. There should be slaloms (with choice on entry and mandatory entry variations), gates, chicago boxes and turnarounds (mandatory and direction choice). The cones are there to mark the course and measure skill level hence the penalties for knocking over / moving cones.

I guess I am fortunate. We have four different groups all putting on events at various times during the year and all strive to design challenging courses.
We have two good locations with enough space to be able to make the courses a good size.

^^^^ yes! I've never seen an auto-x done like that before either.... that would be maddening to run... my eyes would be focused on the road's apex points, and not the cone apexes... I'm certain I would run over all those cones that were just getting in the way! More like a Star Wars adventure through the deathstar in an X-wing than an auto-cross! ha! Looked smooth around the corners, and nice inside rear wheel lift there towards the end, sheesh.

jguerdat
05-30-2013, 03:58 PM
This is a kart track. There were a few cones, primarily for speed reduction or to keep you off the grass. In any event, you almost NEVER apex on a cone - there may be no such cone. Same thing here, no real apex cones, just the inside of a turn where YOU have to decide where the apex is and turn accordingly. That's why you walk the course many times, to determine where the apex is, not where someone may or may not have placed a cone. At a National event, the course is frequently set up to give you tons of room to kill yourself with bad choises while a local/regional course may be tighter, rather forcing you into a certain line.

The great thing about a kart track is that it doesn't change so you can monitor progress and effects of changes in car and driver.

Racerflash
05-31-2013, 09:33 AM
Here's a video of my son running my Abarth at a local SCCA event. This is before the new Dunlops and NeuF bar.

https://vidgive.com/index.php?option=com_contushdvideoshare&view=player&catid=19&id=688

Abarthman
05-31-2013, 12:11 PM
Phew! I was beginning to think that no one was interested.

Based on what I've seen so far, the Rival won't be available in a size for an Abarth. It really looks like this will be the tire to have unless someone comes out with new sizes. And, yes, you bet I'll post my pressure trials. My times were pretty consistent after the second run so increasing pressure didn't seem to hurt but no idea how lowering pressures will work out. I'll start out with what I have already used and drop for comparison. Unfortunately that won't be till the end of June - nothing going on before then.

The BFG Rival is coming out in additional sizes. I haven't confirmed with the engineer I know connected to that tire development,but the Rival is an EXCELLENT tire : More grip than the Z2s, or for that matter, even the Michelin Pilot Super Sport.
The BFG Comp 2 is also excellent; very comparable to the Michelin PSS, but much less expensive (and available in our size, which the Michelin PSS is NOT).

My car, with the RRM rear bar, decambered front suspension, and Comp 2 tires will pull 1g, compared to about 0.86g on a stock car. Huge, HUGE difference.

I'll say this: I spent last Saturday following a 458 Italia (on Pilot SSs) on some very winding mountains roads. When we arrived at the resturant, the 458 driver was absolutely amazed that he couldn't get away from me.

abarth&911
05-31-2013, 02:27 PM
It will be nice if they come out with a size for the Abarth. Like I said earlier I did a quick drive with the Miata and the Rival look really good. I will see more in 2 weeks when we go to CMP, we will see also how they wear with 2 drivers they will do some track mileages.

Abarthman, you are in SC still time left to register for CMP in 2 weeks……

http://thscc.motorsportreg.com/

I know I'm not driving the Abarth on track ( I do AX with it and we have 1 tomorrow ) but my son wanted to do track and the Miata is a better choice for a beginner. It is also cheaper to maintain and frankly I had as much fun with it than I had with the Porsche at VIR N 2 month ago, albeit being 10sec, slower a lap….

jguerdat
06-01-2013, 08:25 AM
The BFG Rival is coming out in additional sizes. I haven't confirmed with the engineer I know connected to that tire development,but the Rival is an EXCELLENT tire : More grip than the Z2s, or for that matter, even the Michelin Pilot Super Sport.

I can't remember where I saw it (someplace on Tirerack?) but the projected new sizes did nothing for us.

BTW, here's a thread on the S2ki.com (S2000) racing and competition forum comparing a number of different tires. The first post keeps getting updated so you don't absolutely have to read the entire thread for info. This compares the Hankook RS-3, Dunlop Z1SS and Z2, Federal 595RS-R, Bridgestone RE-11 and BFG Rivals. Different car/setup but useful info regardless:

http://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/839178-rs-3-vs-z1ss-vs-595-rs-r-vs-re-11-vs-z2-vs-rivals/

These are all tires used for and aimed at competition where the BFG Comp2, etc. really aren't or, at least, not used widely.

cgpiper
06-21-2013, 11:20 PM
The BFG Rival is coming out in additional sizes. I haven't confirmed with the engineer I know connected to that tire development,but the Rival is an EXCELLENT tire : More grip than the Z2s, or for that matter, even the Michelin Pilot Super Sport.
The BFG Comp 2 is also excellent; very comparable to the Michelin PSS, but much less expensive (and available in our size, which the Michelin PSS is NOT).

My car, with the RRM rear bar, decambered front suspension, and Comp 2 tires will pull 1g, compared to about 0.86g on a stock car. Huge, HUGE difference.

I'll say this: I spent last Saturday following a 458 Italia (on Pilot SSs) on some very winding mountains roads. When we arrived at the resturant, the 458 driver was absolutely amazed that he couldn't get away from me.

Abarthman, since you're in SC you likely know an engineer from the same place I know one, but he says he doesn't see one coming out anytime soon in the 205-40R17 size. To that end, I'm wondering if it's at all feasible (and safe) to install a Rival in one of the other sizes. Their 215-45R17 is the closest. I haven't measured the tolerances on AwBart but would 10mm width and 5mm height increases be that critical with our cars?

shagghie
06-22-2013, 01:55 AM
Abarthman, since you're in SC you likely know an engineer from the same place I know one, but he says he doesn't see one coming out anytime soon in the 205-40R17 size. To that end, I'm wondering if it's at all feasible (and safe) to install a Rival in one of the other sizes. Their 215-45R17 is the closest. I haven't measured the tolerances on AwBart but would 10mm width and 5mm height increases be that critical with our cars?

Someone else here is running 225/45/17, but with some fender rolling a cutting of the liners, and slightly decreased turning ratio I believe. Gobs of grip and more sidewall, great for the track. I think a 215/45/17 would still clear. I'm running 215/40/17 Z2's now with no problems, lowered, but with the rear a little higher than the front to keep from rubbing. The Z2's in 215/40/17 are pretty amazing tires and are very popular at the local SDR SCCA AX. I have my front fenders rolled ~5mm, but I think I would have been OK without the roll and still lowered. Try it!

cgpiper
06-24-2013, 02:00 PM
Someone else here is running 225/45/17, but with some fender rolling a cutting of the liners, and slightly decreased turning ratio I believe. Gobs of grip and more sidewall, great for the track. I think a 215/45/17 would still clear. I'm running 215/40/17 Z2's now with no problems, lowered, but with the rear a little higher than the front to keep from rubbing. The Z2's in 215/40/17 are pretty amazing tires and are very popular at the local SDR SCCA AX. I have my front fenders rolled ~5mm, but I think I would have been OK without the roll and still lowered. Try it!

Thanks for that info. I don't want to do anything to the body on mine, so I'll be somewhat conservative on things. I do want to see a definitive ruling on whether BFG will add the 205 to their stable, otherwise I may go to a tire shop and see if they'll mount a 225/45 or something else on my spare 17" wheel and see what the actual measurements are.

This may be old stuff to you guys on here, but I still have a little reservation about the tires being TOO sticky, as in R-comp. I've seen the video of the rollover at Thunderhill and even though I know it was in full race mode, the fact that the Abarth is still a bit top-heavy compared to other sport vehicle makes me a bit nervous. Not to mention the rollovers in the Italian race videos I've seen. I suppose at low Autocross speeds it's not really an issue, but as a new (first year) autocrosser I don't want to chance that kind of problem. Thoughts, anyone?

Bill

redred
06-24-2013, 02:31 PM
Thanks for that info. I don't want to do anything to the body on mine, so I'll be somewhat conservative on things. I do want to see a definitive ruling on whether BFG will add the 205 to their stable, otherwise I may go to a tire shop and see if they'll mount a 225/45 or something else on my spare 17" wheel and see what the actual measurements are.

This may be old stuff to you guys on here, but I still have a little reservation about the tires being TOO sticky, as in R-comp. I've seen the video of the rollover at Thunderhill and even though I know it was in full race mode, the fact that the Abarth is still a bit top-heavy compared to other sport vehicle makes me a bit nervous. Not to mention the rollovers in the Italian race videos I've seen. I suppose at low Autocross speeds it's not really an issue, but as a new (first year) autocrosser I don't want to chance that kind of problem. Thoughts, anyone?

Bill

I don't think that roll over had anything at all to do with sticky tires. It was a braking issue I believe

shagghie
06-24-2013, 02:33 PM
Any car on racing slicks can roll in the right conditions, and I agree the Abarth always has the potential to roll on slicks. Best thing to do is to ease up the speed gradually. you'll start to know when attacking a corner to aggressively starts to lift the wheels. I'm not sure I'd run slicks in stock trim, but once lowered and dialed in and with a rear torsion bar added, I'd start to feel more comfortable. I won't know until I see how these DOT Direzza Z2's feel next weekend... will be my first time driving around the cones on anything othe than the the stock P-Neros... which I abhor.

redred
06-24-2013, 02:55 PM
......on anything othe than the the stock P-Neros... which I abhor.

If you think the P-Neros are bad, you should try the 16" All Season P7's ;) They are terrible!

jguerdat
06-24-2013, 07:31 PM
This may be old stuff to you guys on here, but I still have a little reservation about the tires being TOO sticky, as in R-comp. I've seen the video of the rollover at Thunderhill and even though I know it was in full race mode, the fact that the Abarth is still a bit top-heavy compared to other sport vehicle makes me a bit nervous. Not to mention the rollovers in the Italian race videos I've seen. I suppose at low Autocross speeds it's not really an issue, but as a new (first year) autocrosser I don't want to chance that kind of problem. Thoughts, anyone?

As an old fart autocrossed, I'll say that I haven't seen everything but I'm quite certain a stock Abarth will NOT roll with any street tires currently available without something happening that would roll many other cars, such as sliding sideways into a curb. I'm pushing as hard as I can and don't even feel any lift-off. I have had my old 1970 Fiat 850 Sport Coupe up on two wheels so I know that it feels like. That was on racing slicks, however, which aren't comparable to these street tires.

jguerdat
06-25-2013, 09:26 AM
I've been in contact with my source and emailed the CCR Solo chair. At this point I suspect it will take persuasion to reverse the decision and it likely won't be quick. Keep the cars under control and provide useful data points to help create a knowledge base as to how safe the cars are. I'd like to hear more about cars running R-comps since that may be the biggest issue.

And thanks for the PMs. The more we share, the better...

shagghie
06-25-2013, 12:01 PM
I've been in contact with my source and emailed the CCR Solo chair. At this point I suspect it will take persuasion to reverse the decision and it likely won't be quick. Keep the cars under control and provide useful data points to help create a knowledge base as to how safe the cars are. I'd like to hear more about cars running R-comps since that may be the biggest issue.

And thanks for the PMs. The more we share, the better...

Thank you so much for your effort here... I feel at least a LITTLE better that this will be an issue at least drug out into the daylight for examination instead of one person's biased opinion based on a photo of a highly modified Ab showing off his BBK.

DeeFourTay and I both took our cars to an SCCA sponsored autoX Driving School... TONS of seat time, and an extra long and technical course in the afternoon with high-speed slaloms, turns that were banked the wrong way, and deeeep breaking zones, etc. One car took out a porta potty (a white honda). I even had my wife Katy Rokit driving with us, her VERY first time every driving hard, let alone around cones, at speed. By the end of the day of instruction, her times of 56-58 seconds were below the range of the vast majority of cars/drivers on the course. And my time was like the 3rd fastest of the day, beating out all the FRS/BRS/STi crowd, and all of the Miatas that day as well. Granted, we both had an excellent instructor that pushed us both hard, but the car felt planted, fast, always predictable, and the breaking felt just as good as any of the GTi's and tuned Corrados with BBK's, etc. And this wasjust with the stock P-Nero's, and low-grade coil-overs! To describe the car as 'unstable' just doesn't make sense... there's simply NO WAY my otherwise timid (driving wise) wife would be able to get behind the wheel, flog the car, and attack the slaloms the way she was if the car felt or was unstable. The car inspires confidence and also gives TONS more feedback to the driver at the hips, steering wheel, pedals, and via engine/exhaust sounds compared most cars. Also this combines to make for a car that will only 'break loose' if simply pushed WAY too hard or driven REALLY REALLY BAD. Same thing happens in a Ferrari 458 Italia for that matter....and the irony? Isn't the Magnetti ESC code shared from the Ferrari code base??? Lol, once again this topic has made ME unstable...ha! OK, letting it go now... *takes a deep breath*

Abarthman
06-26-2013, 06:25 AM
Good points, shag.
However, there is something else going on that hasn't really been mentioned a whole lot.
My understanding is that the SCCA won't even allow the stock 500 to be raced at all because the center of mass is too high and the wheel width too narrow.
There have actually been several 500 and Abarth rollovers because of this (I personally know of one new 500 that has rolled).
The Abarth is SLIGHTLY less of a risk, because it is about 0.5" lower, and the SCCA does allow it to race - barely. However, you take a car with a modded suspension, TONS of grip from ultra-sticky rubber, and throw in hitting a curb at speed, and it could be a recipe for disaster (famous video of an Assetto Corse on two wheels here....).
For competition, or even serious street work, the Abarth REALLY needs to be lowered, AND you need wheel spacers (OR wider wheels, which I've done for autocross)...

shagghie
06-29-2013, 12:38 AM
Agree on all points Abarthman. They let 500's run too that are lowered on 2" springs or CO's. I've removed my 10mmF/15mmR spacers, and have gone from 205 P-Neros' to 215 Z2's, along with the nue-f rear torsion bar, so I'm perhaps about to find out first hand what you speak of in tomorrow's Auto-X, my first time running in this config. Tonight I swapped out my budget coil-overs for neu-f springs (linear rate in the rear) and koni yellows set to 4 out 5 firmness. Went back to the oem 'FSD's' up front...so I literally will be driving a different car from what I have been auto-x'ing in the past. Never mind the MM ECU extra power, crap. My goal tomorrow is smooooooooth, and to not be tempted to abuse the extra grip coming out of the corners before restoring the tire patch post apex. It's a simple enough goal, but in a completely different car, handling wise. Let's see what happens! No idea where to start with tire pressures, so I'm probably going to roll in at 40psi front, 34rear, and (hopefully) go down from there in the rear if I need to. (or go up if that feels better, like it did on the P-nero's). Open to starting PSI suggestions for my set up!!

I'm also in SMF now, so will be starting all over again in terms of baseline-ing against a new group of cars and drivers. Heat is going to be a big factor for engines and tires tomorrow... going to bring a spray bottle for the tires and IC's.


Good points, shag.
However, there is something else going on that hasn't really been mentioned a whole lot.
My understanding is that the SCCA won't even allow the stock 500 to be raced at all because the center of mass is too high and the wheel width too narrow.
There have actually been several 500 and Abarth rollovers because of this (I personally know of one new 500 that has rolled).
The Abarth is SLIGHTLY less of a risk, because it is about 0.5" lower, and the SCCA does allow it to race - barely. However, you take a car with a modded suspension, TONS of grip from ultra-sticky rubber, and throw in hitting a curb at speed, and it could be a recipe for disaster (famous video of an Assetto Corse on two wheels here....).
For competition, or even serious street work, the Abarth REALLY needs to be lowered, AND you need wheel spacers (OR wider wheels, which I've done for autocross)...

jguerdat
06-29-2013, 08:56 AM
My next event is tomorrow, also. Going to try lower pressures in front while watching rollover. The Z2 is said by all to be "peaky" at higher pressures with the grip window broadening as pressure decreases. I'm hoping to get to ~32 psi without additional rollover (at 42 PSI I was rolling over the little wear bar triangles completely - overdriving, most likely) to help with not needing to be quite as precise at finding the limit.

shagghie
06-30-2013, 12:29 AM
well all i gotta say is the z2's with koni rears at 4/5 firmness and neuF springs are a WIN!!
Only 3 or 4 cars were faster today. Beat a 380 N.A. mustang with full race spec suspension, rear wing, yada yada, and was only edged out in SMF by one gutted out totally dialed in Honda with an amazing driver.

The Springs/Shocks are night and day better than the coilovers I took off..
Vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eo1sOYKtCdQ

will update w pics of the shredded Z2's...

rear:
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/shagghie/DF2879B7-4AD8-4764-B8A0-A328C306BBEC-260-0000001BDF087177.jpg

front:
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/shagghie/5445E05B-91D1-4670-9B7E-D2F7E5B02BF3-260-0000001BCF37A872.jpg

front:
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/shagghie/6C41725A-FE0E-4056-A3ED-9656F6944A57-260-0000001BD7147664.jpg

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/shagghie/3FF72AC9-BB96-4146-9BE8-68E00CFDBA63-260-0000001BC71593DA.jpg

idea of the course:
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/shagghie/7C21E32E-ACC2-4BC4-9190-B7C2C2209E8D-260-0000001BB8FDBA37.jpg


could not be any happier!!

jguerdat
06-30-2013, 06:52 AM
Whoa! I wasn't getting THAT much rollover on the fronts, it stopped at the bottom of the little wear bar triangles. You need more front pressure or, much better, more camber! You're in a class where camber bolts, etc. are allowed - use them now. I don't think you're at risk of rolling the bead off the wheel but you may be close.

shagghie
06-30-2013, 10:18 AM
Whoa! I wasn't getting THAT much rollover on the fronts, it stopped at the bottom of the little wear bar triangles. You need more front pressure or, much better, more camber! You're in a class where camber bolts, etc. are allowed - use them now. I don't think you're at risk of rolling the bead off the wheel but you may be close.

that was at 42 psi front, so i'm gonna go 45 today to start with. Also gonna raise the rears from 35 to 39, not for sake of tire roll over, but rather to try and get the ass out a little more.
I didn't have any spins or break-aways, so today i'm going to try and find the limit and back off from there.

Also going to run by lowes and get a sprayer bottle;
my best run was my last run when a buddy let me borrow his... a world of difference!!!

redred
06-30-2013, 10:41 AM
A sprayer bottle??? For what? Intrigued now!

Felnus
06-30-2013, 10:49 AM
Hmm....hosed down the intercoolers...?

Racerflash
06-30-2013, 10:51 AM
I'm sure he means to spray water on the tires to cool down between runs. Since my son and I both drive my car, we really had no time to cool down the tires. On a track with straight aways and such, tires have a chance to recover in temps. But on an AutoX course they get too hot and will get "greasy". At least with the ZIIs we found. We are thinking of bringing a sprayer to the next event as well!

Congrats on some great runs and keeping the Abarth rep up there!

trevc
06-30-2013, 11:42 AM
Looks like you had a lot of fun Shagghie!

We had somebody at our last event spraying water on their tires after each run and he said it worked well.
I think I am going to try that as at my last two events with my new suspension my fastest time has been my first run. I even tried lowering the tire pressure after the first run but that didn't help. The rubber is loosing grip due to heat.

shagghie
06-30-2013, 02:11 PM
Looks like you had a lot of fun Shagghie!

We had somebody at our last event spraying water on their tires after each run and he said it worked well.
I think I am going to try that as at my last two events with my new suspension my fastest time has been my first run. I even tried lowering the tire pressure after the first run but that didn't help. The rubber is loosing grip due to heat.

indeed yes, made a massive difference!
Especially the fronts, it helps tire re-compound too if you have a newer set and loose the greasy feel.
We're talking up to a full second faster or more.

jguerdat
06-30-2013, 04:12 PM
Well, weird course and only three runs so...

I got the sidewall scuffing Shaggie did, too, and at my highest pressures 40 psi). Went to 34 and then 32 and each run was slower. I've done that in the past so it's not an absolute but it appears 40-ish is good for the front. Going up significantly may help, too. Need to see results so stay posted...

shagghie
06-30-2013, 10:48 PM
Well, weird course and only three runs so...

I got the sidewall scuffing Shaggie did, too, and at my highest pressures 40 psi). Went to 34 and then 32 and each run was slower. I've done that in the past so it's not an absolute but it appears 40-ish is good for the front. Going up significantly may help, too. Need to see results so stay posted...


vid from today....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_DZv4f2QKY

Beat the wrx's, gto's, frs/brz crowd handily!!

shagghie
07-01-2013, 02:28 AM
A buddy working while I drove said my inside rear was 6" off the ground in the sweepers and S curves!
Sidn't hit a single cone today, a first for me!
Did a fun-run with ESC partial off vs. full off, and was 2 secs faster on a 70 sec. course...
hmmmmmmm. The Z2's might change things fir ne in that regard going forward...
Here's some data logging, pushing over 1G in lateral accel:

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/shagghie/FE4561A7-F144-417A-AEBB-16E8D4C34339-193-0000001C075013C4.jpg

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/shagghie/C79C58A0-B9BD-45E6-A90F-C20EC6174CF9-193-0000001BFE163794.jpg

so much for smooth throttle...
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/shagghie/59E7A833-666F-436D-975A-0C4E897EAD78-193-0000001BEE0550AA.jpg

and x1/9, abarth 1000, and 650 all tore it up today... x1/9 was extraordinarily fast:

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/shagghie/B26D4702-3DD8-4251-B24F-26F1D1ECEB14-193-0000001C15D04B6D.jpg

jguerdat
07-01-2013, 09:17 AM
A buddy working while I drove said my inside rear was 6" off the ground in the sweepers and S curves!

Yeah, that's pretty much a given for a hard-driven FWD car. I even pull the inside front wheel off the ground in my 850. Saw a GP Spitfire with its inside rear wheel off the ground yesterday - he wasn't spinning the tire so he musta had a locked or LSD diff.


Sidn't hit a single cone today, a first for me!

Unfortunately, I rarely hit cones. I could claim it's because of superior driving but I suspect that it's because I'm on this side of control - I need to get more to THAT side...


Did a fun-run with ESC partial off vs. full off, and was 2 secs faster on a 70 sec. course...
hmmmmmmm. The Z2's might change things fir ne in that regard going forward...

Indeed. Maybe the putzing with tire pressures is less of a factor than figuring out when to use partial ESC vs full off. Being faster in a fun run isn't uncommon but 2 seconds is an awful lot. Maybe the partial ESC was hiding some driving mistakes?

Robert Nixon
07-01-2013, 11:46 AM
Wow, the chart showign the Abarth over 1g several times tells me it was a tight course I guess!

I was driving a Miata at autocross (ZMax Dragway parking lot) yesterday and saw several cars with wheels lifting. My times were really slow, but I was able to improve each time and have fun, even though they didn't let us run the Abarths.

If I linked it to Facebook right, this shows my 4 runs, not great video, and not fast. about a minute into run 1 I spun out, so that was fun since I was able to complete the run and not get DNF. Have to admit my son killed me by 6 seconds, we were in the 80 second range, and plenty of people were going way faster.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10101307610275530&set=vb.20906971&type=2&theater

shagghie
07-01-2013, 12:02 PM
Yeah, that's pretty much a given for a hard-driven FWD car. I even pull the inside front wheel off the ground in my 850. Saw a GP Spitfire with its inside rear wheel off the ground yesterday - he wasn't spinning the tire so he musta had a locked or LSD diff.



Unfortunately, I rarely hit cones. I could claim it's because of superior driving but I suspect that it's because I'm on this side of control - I need to get more to THAT side...



Indeed. Maybe the putzing with tire pressures is less of a factor than figuring out when to use partial ESC vs full off. Being faster in a fun run isn't uncommon but 2 seconds is an awful lot. Maybe the partial ESC was hiding some driving mistakes?

Did you see the B&W pic of the three classic Fiats there? The x1/9 was incredibly fast.. one of the top cars of the day behind only a few race cars and a sprite and a Morgan.
The Abarth 1000 also was very fast in the corners, but lacking a little grunt to be able to keep up with the x1/9, but boy was it gorgeous through the slalom and corners. The 850 was having some fuel line issues, but on his best run, he was only .5 sec off from the x1/9!!!

For my part (rather, for the car's part...as I can't take credit), she was able to beat a race-tuned 380hp N.A. Mustang, all the STi's, WRX, EVO's, and one of the two FRS/BRZ.... the other one, the driver is just too damned good to beat, period. Was still beat by a gutted, auto-x spec'd Honda, and some high-powered s2000's, and a race-spec MR2. The best part for me personally was beating the gutted, modded R32, and an M3. Those are the cars I really 'care' to keep up with, and I was able to beat both of them with this set-up. The changes I made to the car from the last auto-x to this one have transformed the car and catapulted it into another class of car... I was 5-6 seconds slower than the same cars I mentioned above at the last even. And this weekend I was a full second faster than most of them, and .3 seconds or so faster than even some of what many in SMF considered to be the 'big boys'. Unless the Fortune CO's prove to be TREMENDOUSLY better, I will be sticking with this set up.. I just can't express how amazing it was to have linear rate shocks in the rear and (finally) some stiff enough shocks (koni's) to get that ass out whenever I wanted, and also to simply have the compliance over the course to 'go fast' without worrying about bumps or dips. I will never buy another set of budget coilovers again as long as I live. The springs on them were like tin can rattlesnake slinky's when I took them off, compared to the super-dense neu-F's. No WONDER I was riding the bump stops even with a california rake stance!

pic of the Rousch (sp?) stang for fun. It's my friend's car, and he is determined to prove to the world that 'stangs can compete in auto-x. But first, he needs to burn through the street-class Sumitomo tires he's running! (and THAT, my friends, is how I beat him...for now):
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/1001462_10151494363552849_2035207471_n.jpg

abarth&911
07-01-2013, 12:07 PM
Question for the one using ZII 215/40/17 on stock 17” wheel.
Are you using any wheel spacer and if yes what thickness?

shagghie
07-01-2013, 12:18 PM
Question for the one using ZII 215/40/17 on stock 17” wheel.
Are you using any wheel spacer and if yes what thickness?

I tried running 10mm F / 15mm R spacers with that same setup, and while the fronts were clearing (note, I have the front fenders rolled 5-6mm), the rears were rubbing everytime I hit the bumpstops on the Madness CO's, even with a bit of rake in the stance. I am going to try to get the rear fenders pulled (they are too thin to roll), and then I'll be going with 5mm spacers all around, for reference. Now that I'm on the Koni/NeuF in the rear, should be no problem. Note, I also forgot to order camber bolts for the fronts, so I'm only running -1.3 right now.

jguerdat
07-01-2013, 12:57 PM
Question for the one using ZII 215/40/17 on stock 17” wheel.
Are you using any wheel spacer and if yes what thickness?

No need. There's no rubbing going on.

jguerdat
07-01-2013, 01:11 PM
Did you see the B&W pic of the three classic Fiats there? The x1/9 was incredibly fast.. one of the top cars of the day behind only a few race cars and a sprite and a Morgan.
The Abarth 1000 also was very fast in the corners, but lacking a little grunt to be able to keep up with the x1/9, but boy was it gorgeous through the slalom and corners. The 850 was having some fuel line issues, but on his best run, he was only .5 sec off from the x1/9!!!

The 850 appears to be John Edwards' car - true? If so, he does a ton of modification work on both this car (Mighty Mouse) and for others. My 850 Spider has one of his reground cams in it but there's no way mine would even be close to his, what with the suspension mods and built motor. Plus, he's a good driver. I don't know the others, though.


For my part (rather, for the car's part...as I can't take credit), she was able to beat a race-tuned 380hp N.A. Mustang, all the STi's, WRX, EVO's, and one of the two FRS/BRZ.... the other one, the driver is just too damned good to beat, period. Was still beat by a gutted, auto-x spec'd Honda, and some high-powered s2000's, and a race-spec MR2. The best part for me personally was beating the gutted, modded R32, and an M3. Those are the cars I really 'care' to keep up with, and I was able to beat both of them with this set-up. The changes I made to the car from the last auto-x to this one have transformed the car and catapulted it into another class of car... I was 5-6 seconds slower than the same cars I mentioned above at the last even. And this weekend I was a full second faster than most of them, and .3 seconds or so faster than even some of what many in SMF considered to be the 'big boys'.

The big thing to concentrate on is to beat the driver. A good driver will beat you with a poor car while a bad driver makes anything look horrible. That's part of the issue with making changes to the car - it's usually the loose but behind the wheel that needs improvement. Sounds like you're getting experience - use the fast guys as your goal, at least in PAX (I like to compare raw times, too, although class differences can be misleading).


pic of the Rousch (sp?) stang for fun. It's my friend's car, and he is determined to prove to the world that 'stangs can compete in auto-x.

Actually, Mustangs (depending on year and equipment) are very competitive in the right class. Look back through the past few years of National results for Sam Strano and others, primarily in FS, maybe CP. It's having the RIGHT equipment (drag racing setups need not apply) and the right driver although Sam pretty much wins in anything he drives, unlike me...

jguerdat
07-01-2013, 01:49 PM
A point I just remembered to illustrate the above:

In the mid- to late 1970s, I had a 1970 Fiat 850 Sport Coupe - the one with the BIG engine, 903cc! The way autocrossed ran those days in the Norfolk, VA area was to run in heats according to number so I stopped by a Corvette club event on the way to my regular club's (TSCC, for those who know) event a couple of miles away. I ran and left without knowing where I ended up. Later that afternoon, when TSCC's event ended, a bunch of folks went to see if the 'Vette club was still running, which they were. Turns out I held FTD all day until my cohorts ran. I was shocked but pleased...

abarth&911
07-01-2013, 02:07 PM
No need. There's no rubbing going on.

Its more that I want to widen the track and want to know how far I can push the wheel out without hitting the fender.
Not sure when I will switch to the ZII, the Pirelli are still good for a few AX. If I know what I can get away with I might order the spacer before the tire.
By the way I spoke with Alan last Saturday.

shagghie
07-01-2013, 02:23 PM
This the guy in the green 850? http://lateapexphoto.com/p839369091/e6182f72b

and the guy with the yellow x/19 is an old-timer named Charlie...forget his last name, but a well known figure and gentleman.

Nice work beating the Vette's that day! I plan to do a Porsche Day event on the 16th to show the main guy what the Ab can do. He wrote an article on the original 500 Prima that was NOT very flattering and he is very critical of the car, so I have an ulterior motive in showing up beyond just having fun. Fiat is giving him an Ab Cabrio to test drive again to try and sway his opinion, so between that and letting him drive mine with better rubber, etc., hoping we can sway his (apparently influential) opinion prior to his review write-up... He did at least admit he was impressed by my times. My buddy in in a stock Abarth yesterday was in the mid-80's while I was in the upper 60's...quite a big delta, but as you say, it is more about the driver, as this was his first time around the cones in the bone stock Ab!. :-) It amazes me how in a 70 second course, that times between the top drivers can be as close as 1/1000th of a second, regardless of the car each is driving, and that championships are won/lost in the 1000ths' of a second as well. 80% of the drivers yesterday (including me) were breaking in the 2nd turn prior to the slalom. When I worked that section, I noticed the top drivers were not breaking at all. So I tried it, and though it was a bit uncomfortable and required a lot more anticipation and looking much further down course to pull off, I made up at least a full second with that course adjustment alone. Reading the course better, for me personally, and watching what the other top FWD drivers are doing out there, has really helped me go from mid-pack to upper third, or (as far as yesterday), even better.

abarth&911
07-01-2013, 04:22 PM
I plan to do a Porsche Day event on the 16th to show the main guy what the Ab can do. He wrote an article on the original 500 Prima that was NOT very flattering and he is very critical of the car, so I have an ulterior motive in showing up beyond just having fun. Fiat is giving him an Ab Cabrio to test drive again to try and sway his opinion, so between that and letting him drive mine with better rubber, etc., hoping we can sway his (apparently influential) opinion prior to his review write-up... He did at least admit he was impressed by my times.

Knowing the Porsche drivers I think you should do really good.
In my PCA region we are just a few that have a lot of AX experience.
Last April we had an AX school follow by an AX. I ended up going with the Abarth.
We had a really long and fast course around 110sec. and I had to go in 3rd a few time per run.
Me and another experience guy driving a Boxster Spyder keep exchanging the best time
each time we run, he was running after me and he did the best time on his last run, but it was close.

vak9girl
07-01-2013, 05:39 PM
This weekend I participated in my first AX - hope to do it again! :)

shagghie
07-01-2013, 07:41 PM
This weekend I participated in my first AX - hope to do it again! :)

Awesome girl! What class are you running?

jguerdat
07-02-2013, 07:59 AM
Its more that I want to widen the track and want to know how far I can push the wheel out without hitting the fender.
Not sure when I will switch to the ZII, the Pirelli are still good for a few AX. If I know what I can get away with I might order the spacer before the tire.

Ahhh... What about more offset rather than spacers? Maybe no one makes one but it would be potentially easier to mount wheels (not sure if the spacers bolt on and then the wheel bolts to the spacer or if you have to use longer bolts).


By the way I spoke with Alan last Saturday.

Did he even acknowledge that he knew me?? ;)

jguerdat
07-02-2013, 08:15 AM
This the guy in the green 850? http://lateapexphoto.com/p839369091/e6182f72b

That looks like Craig Way's 850. Never seen a picture of him that for some reason that person strikes me as a female. Maybe Craig's just pretty. ;)


It amazes me how in a 70 second course, that times between the top drivers can be as close as 1/1000th of a second, regardless of the car each is driving, and that championships are won/lost in the 1000ths' of a second as well.

I once took 3rd, about .004 second slower than 2nd place. I was also .021 second behind 1st...


80% of the drivers yesterday (including me) were breaking in the 2nd turn prior to the slalom. When I worked that section, I noticed the top drivers were not breaking at all. So I tried it, and though it was a bit uncomfortable and required a lot more anticipation and looking much further down course to pull off, I made up at least a full second with that course adjustment alone. Reading the course better, for me personally, and watching what the other top FWD drivers are doing out there, has really helped me go from mid-pack to upper third, or (as far as yesterday), even better.

Yup, looking ahead (and memorization of the course) works wonders. Nice thing about FWD is that you can use the front wheels to pull you through a turn, even if the rear is rotating (withing reason). I hafta say that I use the brakes a bit much but I'm trying to work on that. That said, it's better to over-brake and then have to accelerate than it is to plow through a turn trying to brake. ABS only does so much - physics sucks. Sounds like you're not only observant but also a quick learner. Many people can't master that.

abarth&911
07-02-2013, 09:46 AM
Did he even acknowledge that he knew me?? ;)

Yes, but he was not happy that you mention his name in the e-mail you send out.

cgpiper
07-02-2013, 11:23 AM
I do want to see a definitive ruling on whether BFG will add the 205 to their stable,

Update: I received a reply from my query to BFG and they said they have no plans to manufacture a 205/40-17 in their Rival series. Dang.

shagghie
07-02-2013, 11:25 AM
Update: I received a reply from my query to BFG and they said they have no plans to manufacture a 205/40-17 in their Rival series. Dang.

what about 215/40-17 or 225/40/17? And what about the 16" options?

shagghie
07-02-2013, 11:32 AM
That looks like Craig Way's 850. Never seen a picture of him that for some reason that person strikes me as a female. Maybe Craig's just pretty. ;)



I once took 3rd, about .004 second slower than 2nd place. I was also .021 second behind 1st...



Yup, looking ahead (and memorization of the course) works wonders. Nice thing about FWD is that you can use the front wheels to pull you through a turn, even if the rear is rotating (withing reason). I hafta say that I use the brakes a bit much but I'm trying to work on that. That said, it's better to over-brake and then have to accelerate than it is to plow through a turn trying to brake. ABS only does so much - physics sucks. Sounds like you're not only observant but also a quick learner. Many people can't master that.


he might have had his woman or daughter driving... there were a ton of women drivers on Sunday, especially in and around the classic cars. One was even driving a 190hp 1958 vw bug with 10" (wide!) slicks.... talk about a fast car around the cones!

I do think I learn quickly, but there is just nothing that compares to seat time at the same time, for that feel and rhythm. I would say that Sunday was the very first time in autocrossing that I had a lap (out of over a dozen over the weekend) where I was 'in the zone' the entire time for the entire length of the run. Nothing 'extra' running through my head other than the rhythm of the course and my breath. If I spend the rest of my auto-x years just trying to get back to that moment, it will be worth it...and go figure, it was my fastest lap of the day by a full second. :-)

jguerdat
07-02-2013, 12:31 PM
Yes, but he was not happy that you mention his name in the e-mail you send out.

Crap. I thought I had taken names out.

ScorpionQueen
08-04-2014, 05:05 PM
No need. There's no rubbing going on.


Great! I think this will be my next tire choice :apple:

cgpiper
08-05-2014, 04:07 PM
It's been a couple of months since all this activity with the 215/40-17 ZII's and I wonder if there's been some sort of consensus as to the best TP for the front and rear? I think the last I read was that 42 or 40 was being tried on the front but with excessive rollover. I've been running about 45F and 38R on my Coopers (yeah, I know- bad choice of a tire) but had a little higher pressure on the original Pirellis in order to minimize the roll.

I have a new set of ZII's that I'm going to run for the first time in a few weeks and I was going to start with 45F and 35R. Thoughts at this point?

nilfinite
08-05-2014, 04:16 PM
Bill,

I'm running those specs on cold tires on the ZII and they seem to be working well. I am getting a good amount of rollover but I'm attributing that to me going too hot into corners.

Rears, I might let out air depending on how tight the course is and how much I need the car to oversteer.

jguerdat
08-06-2014, 08:40 AM
I have a new set of ZII's that I'm going to run for the first time in a few weeks and I was going to start with 45F and 35R. Thoughts at this point?

Not a bad start but I think it will ultimately be too high, especially in the front. I believe that the rollover is due to 1) lack of camber for autocross (might be great for track) and 2) simply overdriving. On the former, I'm cheating and using camber bolts for -2.5 degrees in front and still getting rollover when overdriving. Don't forget that the ZII and similar tires typically have a MUCH stiffer sidewall than almost any other tire so rollover isn't a tire issue, it's a driver one (ask me how I know :) ). On the latter point, slow down to go faster. I'm really trying to do that but sometimes I'm just "eat up with the dumb ass", as my wife would say...

Gharbeson
08-11-2014, 07:08 PM
Any car on racing slicks can roll in the right conditions, and I agree the Abarth always has the potential to roll on slicks. Best thing to do is to ease up the speed gradually. you'll start to know when attacking a corner to aggressively starts to lift the wheels. I'm not sure I'd run slicks in stock trim, but once lowered and dialed in and with a rear torsion bar added, I'd start to feel more comfortable. I won't know until I see how these DOT Direzza Z2's feel next weekend... will be my first time driving around the cones on anything othe than the the stock P-Neros... which I abhor.I run Hoosier slicks on the track. for top speed events such as the Texas Mile I use 17" wheels with a much harder compound. For everyday tracking I have been using the stock 16" with Toyo Proxxes 1R although they have seen their last heat cycle and need to be replaced. I'll probably try the Dunlops which so many of you seem to like so well. After an afternoon club racing or just track lapping I just can't get up for changing wheels so the Toyo's have done double duty on the street and track. I'll miss them!

jguerdat
08-12-2014, 07:50 AM
The Dunlops may not be the best for track. They have a narrow grip range (I tend to overdrive, exceeding that range too frequently) and I *think* they have a tendency to overheat with multiple autocross drivers and track use. Check into that before you spring for them.

Gharbeson
08-12-2014, 10:52 AM
The Dunlops may not be the best for track. They have a narrow grip range (I tend to overdrive, exceeding that range too frequently) and I *think* they have a tendency to overheat with multiple autocross drivers and track use. Check into that before you spring for them.
Thanks, I will. There are not a lot of choices but enough to get something I can track and still drive on wet streets. Hope your season is going well. Our little cars seem to excel in Autocross and I have enjoyed following you guys. On the track... Not so much. They will never be a track monster with the weight bias and FWD, which is why I'd love to see more FWD cars this size out racing on the track so we can have a bit more competition. The few times I have been with other Abarths on the track it has been a blast. ciao

abarth&911
08-12-2014, 12:57 PM
For AX I am running 38f and 32r on my ZII, keeping the same pressure for the street. I just install a new set last Saturday.
The first set lasted me 8k miles, 2k more than the stock Pirelli with about the same # of AX. The wear was pretty even across the tread,
with the outside edge more rounded, the inside edge was more square/flat most likely because of the camber. Nothing to worry about.
Might do an AX next Sunday, we will see how fresh tire do.
I got the ZII also on the Miata for the track, they work really good, even with 2 drivers on it, but the weight distribution is quite different, more like 50/50.
If I will be tracking the Abarth I will be staying with the ZII.
By the way the new ZII Star Spec, seem to be available now at Tire Rack.

Robert Nixon
08-12-2014, 02:09 PM
Since you asked about tire pressure on ZII: I've done 42/34 and still have some wear on the sides of the front, while the back tires are right on the wear bar triangles, so I'm planning on going higher on front, maybe 46 to start and see how that wears. Will keep 34 in back.

Racerflash
08-12-2014, 02:23 PM
I've been running the ZIIs as well, but only a couple of AutoXs with these new tires. I have the Neu-F rear bar, balance of suspension is stock. Higher pressures up front are a big improvement, but still having some understeer problems on fast sweepers. Anyone have any pressure combos or other suggestions for curing this??

Thanks,
Flash

abarth&911
08-12-2014, 03:48 PM
I can see with a stock suspension running higher pressure. With the suspension that I got the lower one are working for me.

cgpiper
08-25-2014, 04:10 AM
I ran my first autocross with my new ZIIs Saturday and they are definitely an improvement. After my Pirellis wore out at 15K, I decided to experiment with a set of Cooper Zeons. Bad choice, but at least they weren't any worse than the Pirellis, except that they, too, only lasted about 15K or so (two are at the wear line and the other two were mostly on the rear and not quite so worn).

I started with 45psi front and 40 rear. On my first run I ended up a few 10ths AHEAD of a fellow who had been beating me by at least 3 or 4 seconds in every event since I started last year. He ultimately beat me by improving a bit on his second run, while I got progressively worse, but still, I ended up only 0.3 seconds behind him and that means I got at least 2-4 seconds improvement with the Dunlops. I think my runs got worse for a couple of reasons...I got a bit cocky over the first run and didn't focus on the next one. On the last two, I went into a couple of tight "U"s too hot and lugged it coming back out, losing time (and hitting a cone each time).

Also, the tires seemed pretty hot and squirmy after the first run and I didn't have anything to cool them down (will fix that next time). Even at the 45F, there seemed to be more rollover than I expected and I didn't want to go any higher. I'm sure that pushing too hard through the runs didn't help, but on the other hand --- 2-4 second improvement is a big deal for me.

Next time I'll focus more on my corner entry/exit and hopefully my improvement will stabilize. I really didn't place much stock in all the guys who kept telling me that great tires make ALL the difference, but I'm sold NOW! I appreciate all the comments and feedback in this thread.

BigDaddySRT
08-25-2014, 06:39 AM
I started with 45psi front and 40 rear. On my first run I ended up a few 10ths AHEAD of a fellow who had been beating me by at least 3 or 4 seconds in every event since I started last year. He ultimately beat me by improving a bit on his second run, while I got progressively worse, but still, I ended up only 0.3 seconds behind him and that means I got at least 2-4 seconds improvement with the Dunlops. I think my runs got worse for a couple of reasons...I got a bit cocky over the first run and didn't focus on the next one. On the last two, I went into a couple of tight "U"s too hot and lugged it coming back out, losing time (and hitting a cone each time).

Also, the tires seemed pretty hot and squirmy after the first run and I didn't have anything to cool them down (will fix that next time). Even at the 45F, there seemed to be more rollover than I expected and I didn't want to go any higher. I'm sure that pushing too hard through the runs didn't help, but on the other hand --- 2-4 second improvement is a big deal for me.

Next time I'll focus more on my corner entry/exit and hopefully my improvement will stabilize. I really didn't place much stock in all the guys who kept telling me that great tires make ALL the difference, but I'm sold NOW! I appreciate all the comments and feedback in this thread.

You openly admitted you were "over driving" the car.

At 45psi (cold) fronts you should have not been rolling the tires over.

"You have to go slow to be fast."

Smooth in the transitions. Smooth throttle applications. Apply the brakes hard and swift, only in a straight line... don't ever turn the wheels with your foot on the brake... lightly apply the throttle after a hard braking zone to help settle the rear of the car.

jguerdat
08-25-2014, 06:52 AM
I'll disagree that you can't get rollover at 45 psi in the front with a stock alignment. Yes, overdriving makes it worse (I'm the president of that club) but the aligment is more for track rather than autocross use. I'm currently running -2.5 degrees camber in front and still get more rollover than I'd like. My driving is slowly migrating to braking slightly earlier so I don't plow and it's working but it's a nose heavy FWD car.

I'll also disagree with straightline braking. There are cars where you want to do this unless you're a better driver than I but this car can benefit from some trailbraking to help rotate the rear. I don't left foot brake so it's not my forte but my driving style won't get rotation without some braking in the turn. Unfortunately, the only times I've gotten rotation due to braking in the turn is when I'm a little late and have to carry the braking into the turn by accident. I need to be able to train myself to do this repeatably.

doverosx
08-25-2014, 07:10 AM
I'll disagree that you can't get rollover at 45 psi in the front with a stock alignment. Yes, overdriving makes it worse (I'm the president of that club) but the aligment is more for track rather than autocross use. I'm currently running -2.5 degrees camber in front and still get more rollover than I'd like. My driving is slowly migrating to braking slightly earlier so I don't plow and it's working but it's a nose heavy FWD car.

I'll also disagree with straightline braking. There are cars where you want to do this unless you're a better driver than I but this car can benefit from some trailbraking to help rotate the rear. I don't left foot brake so it's not my forte but my driving style won't get rotation without some braking in the turn. Unfortunately, the only times I've gotten rotation due to braking in the turn is when I'm a little late and have to carry the braking into the turn by accident. I need to be able to train myself to do this repeatably.

Definitely trail break with this car. Trail breaking in the winter is a good technique to develop anyway because it allows you to fully tame what will happen on corner exit. Smoothness is very much the key but that doesn't mean slow, most importantly, seating yourself is of utmost importance. Using the CG lock of the belt and the dead pedal have been key to my success this past year.

How is the -2.5 up front? Did you need a camber bolt to achieve that?

BigDaddySRT
08-25-2014, 07:55 AM
Definitely trail break with this car. Trail breaking in the winter is a good technique to develop anyway because it allows you to fully tame what will happen on corner exit. Smoothness is very much the key but that doesn't mean slow, most importantly, seating yourself is of utmost importance. Using the CG lock of the belt and the dead pedal have been key to my success this past year.

How is the -2.5 up front? Did you need a camber bolt to achieve that?

If you're really up for rotation and like trail braking a FWD... add an extremely large rear torsion bar and add in the Factory Toe Setting!!!!
Let the Rotation begin!!!!

BigDaddySRT
08-25-2014, 07:58 AM
I'll disagree that you can't get rollover at 45 psi in the front with a stock alignment. Yes, overdriving makes it worse (I'm the president of that club) but the aligment is more for track rather than autocross use. I'm currently running -2.5 degrees camber in front and still get more rollover than I'd like. My driving is slowly migrating to braking slightly earlier so I don't plow and it's working but it's a nose heavy FWD car.

I'll also disagree with straightline braking. There are cars where you want to do this unless you're a better driver than I but this car can benefit from some trailbraking to help rotate the rear. I don't left foot brake so it's not my forte but my driving style won't get rotation without some braking in the turn. Unfortunately, the only times I've gotten rotation due to braking in the turn is when I'm a little late and have to carry the braking into the turn by accident. I need to be able to train myself to do this repeatably.

You'd find that if you set your speed prior to turn in... you'd be faster out.

"Slow in, Fast Out."
It's a hard taste to acquire.

nilfinite
08-28-2014, 06:51 PM
I ran my first autocross with my new ZIIs Saturday and they are definitely an improvement. After my Pirellis wore out at 15K, I decided to experiment with a set of Cooper Zeons. Bad choice, but at least they weren't any worse than the Pirellis, except that they, too, only lasted about 15K or so (two are at the wear line and the other two were mostly on the rear and not quite so worn).

I started with 45psi front and 40 rear. On my first run I ended up a few 10ths AHEAD of a fellow who had been beating me by at least 3 or 4 seconds in every event since I started last year. He ultimately beat me by improving a bit on his second run, while I got progressively worse, but still, I ended up only 0.3 seconds behind him and that means I got at least 2-4 seconds improvement with the Dunlops. I think my runs got worse for a couple of reasons...I got a bit cocky over the first run and didn't focus on the next one. On the last two, I went into a couple of tight "U"s too hot and lugged it coming back out, losing time (and hitting a cone each time).

Also, the tires seemed pretty hot and squirmy after the first run and I didn't have anything to cool them down (will fix that next time). Even at the 45F, there seemed to be more rollover than I expected and I didn't want to go any higher. I'm sure that pushing too hard through the runs didn't help, but on the other hand --- 2-4 second improvement is a big deal for me.

Next time I'll focus more on my corner entry/exit and hopefully my improvement will stabilize. I really didn't place much stock in all the guys who kept telling me that great tires make ALL the difference, but I'm sold NOW! I appreciate all the comments and feedback in this thread.

Nice job Bill. Glad you have the right tires for AX now! The sidewalls on the ZIIs are so stiff that rolling over on the shoulder isn't uncommon. Slow in fast out is super important. And trailbraking as the other guys on the forum have mentioned.

I also strongly recommend taking the Evolution Autocross School the next time they have it at Marina Airport. I think it's on November 15 & 16. 24 runs each day, $275 per day ($510 for both days) with national-champions teaching you how to get better.

Its two seasons worth of seat time in two days. Enough time to actually practice all of the techniques (trailbraking, oversteer, the right line, etc)

I'll probably be there again with my Abarth.

cgpiper
08-29-2014, 11:35 PM
Thanks to all for the feedback. Yes, I was apparently going in to the turns too hot, so I'll work on that. I know that I started out going WAY too hot into the turns when I started so I've been trying to hit the brakes hard at the end of a straight and then coast into the curve, accelerating out. Although I saw a lot of lugging by other drivers in the hairpin curves (Stockton REALLY had tight ones), I was really bad at it. I was considering shifting down into first since I was going so slow, but that can't be good for the tranny, so I'll work on other techniques instead. My brother-in-law (racer) suggested trailbraking but I need to learn how to do it outside of the AX so I don't use up my few runs trying to figure it out.

The Evolution Autocross School looks great... and I have that weekend free, so I'll really have to investigate it. At this late stage I can use all the help I can get gr_grin . I'll look forward to seeing your Abarth again!

Thanks!!!!

jguerdat
08-30-2014, 08:00 AM
Everyone knows how to use the gas pedal but training yourself to use the brakes effectively is almost a lost art. If you're not activating ABS, you're not using them effectively. Determining where to hit them is the trick and varies widely with lots of variables. You generally want to time it so you start to turn just as you start to turn, although a bit of braking while entering the turn, trail braking, is an advanced technique that can be quite useful to help rotate the rear. Coasting is NOT the way to go - you should be accelerating, both positive and negative, as hard as conditions allow at all times. You may not time it right and end up having to accelerate into the turn a bit but definitely do not coast.

Also, downshifting doesn't hurt the transmission a bit. You do it all the time on the road. The biggest thing with downshifting to 1st gear is the torque multiplication - you risk getting the car to pitch fore and aft way too much, causing an unsettled suspension and handling. Few cars/drivers really benefit from using 1st anyplace except the launch, even in tight turns. If it's THAT slow, use 1st but try to use the proper line instead which may not be so bad in the first place.

cgpiper
08-31-2014, 12:20 AM
I could have been a bit more clear. It just seems like I'm coasting into the turn but I DO let off the brakes as soon as I start the curve and then hit the gas immediately. But in a tight turn, the low RPMs make it seem like nothing's happening and sometimes gives me the impression that I might as well be coasting. I was thinking about trying to downshift into 1st on a tight hairpin because I can get a higher RPM and better torque for a couple of seconds and launch into 2nd. But I don't know that it's feasible... the best thing would be to experiment with a single variable at a time but that's hard to do with a 4-run event and no fun runs.

But I agree that it's solely a driver issue on this stuff. Once I get more practiced in the proper lines and braking, things will start to pick up for me.

Going hot just before getting into the turns (as I mentioned before) is just a result of me overcorrecting from being too slow in previous outings. I'm still looking for the correct balance of quick straights and the proper feed into the turns. All the suggestions here are what I expect to do... it's just a matter of making them work! :frantic4yc:

And Will, I'm seriously looking at that Marina deal. Thanks again for the suggestion!

nilfinite
08-31-2014, 11:11 AM
Definitely, it's super hard to actually practice several techniques at once with just 4 runs per event. The Evo school made a huge difference for me in terms of knowing how to improve, now I just need to build the muscle memory to actually execute on those skills.

If you go, I'd definitely recommend doing both days. Day 1 is learning the most important techniques and getting tons of practice. Day 2 gives you the opportunity to try to reapply what you learned in Day 1 plus some more advanced techniques.

doverosx
09-02-2014, 03:42 PM
I could have been a bit more clear. It just seems like I'm coasting into the turn but I DO let off the brakes as soon as I start the curve and then hit the gas immediately. But in a tight turn, the low RPMs make it seem like nothing's happening and sometimes gives me the impression that I might as well be coasting. I was thinking about trying to downshift into 1st on a tight hairpin because I can get a higher RPM and better torque for a couple of seconds and launch into 2nd. But I don't know that it's feasible... the best thing would be to experiment with a single variable at a time but that's hard to do with a 4-run event and no fun runs.

But I agree that it's solely a driver issue on this stuff. Once I get more practiced in the proper lines and braking, things will start to pick up for me.

Going hot just before getting into the turns (as I mentioned before) is just a result of me overcorrecting from being too slow in previous outings. I'm still looking for the correct balance of quick straights and the proper feed into the turns. All the suggestions here are what I expect to do... it's just a matter of making them work! :frantic4yc:

And Will, I'm seriously looking at that Marina deal. Thanks again for the suggestion!

Watch this video; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Cug88zdr6E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Cug88zdr6E
The optimum use of your brakes is to "hit" ABS and then to threshold the limit of ABS just before it engages, this will become natural and you'll be able to modulate ABS on/off as you desire.

abarth&911
09-02-2014, 04:43 PM
I was thinking about trying to downshift into 1st on a tight hairpin because I can get a higher RPM and better torque for a couple of seconds and launch into 2nd. But I don't know that it's feasible... the best thing would be to experiment with a single variable at a time but that's hard to do with a 4-run event and no fun runs.


On a tight hairpin used 1st gear, look at the video below, the first 2 where fast enough to stay in 2nd the last one was too slow so I went to 1st. This car is easy to shift back to first just be careful with the clutch release, be smooth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4QLUYPsHM0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4QLUYPsHM0

cgpiper
09-08-2014, 08:29 PM
Neat! I wasn't sure if it was really feasible but you answered my question. I'll have to give it a try if the next series has the tight hairpins (and so far, they all have).

cgpiper
09-08-2014, 08:51 PM
I've been told by a few folks to try trail-braking but I need to practice somewhere besides during the 4 runs on AX day. And I tend to forget just HOW great the brakes are on the Abarth. When I first started AXing last year I was being WAY too gentle with them and taking forever to hit the corners. I suspect I'm overdoing it now, so I just need to work on the balance, or as Will said, getting my "muscle memory" up to speed.

nilfinite
09-08-2014, 11:14 PM
Exactly, 4 runs is not nearly enough to make huge improvements. Some of the groups do 7-8 runs a day which are much better (Lotus Club, BMWCCA) but those are usually in Marina, a long ass drive from Sacramento :).

I've signed up for the Evo School for November. Let me know if you do go!

cgpiper
09-09-2014, 08:40 PM
Exactly, 4 runs is not nearly enough to make huge improvements. Some of the groups do 7-8 runs a day which are much better (Lotus Club, BMWCCA) but those are usually in Marina, a long ass drive from Sacramento :).

I've signed up for the Evo School for November. Let me know if you do go!

I signed up for both days last night! See you there, Will.

doverosx
09-09-2014, 11:02 PM
I've been told by a few folks to try trail-braking but I need to practice somewhere besides during the 4 runs on AX day. And I tend to forget just HOW great the brakes are on the Abarth. When I first started AXing last year I was being WAY too gentle with them and taking forever to hit the corners. I suspect I'm overdoing it now, so I just need to work on the balance, or as Will said, getting my "muscle memory" up to speed.

You can practice on the street. Let's say that you normally brake at 25% on the street...so do the same braking of 25% but relax the brake pedal just as you start steering. You should still be braking (5-10%) as you start unwinding the wheel after "apexing", then slide your foot over to the throttle and begin to squeeze that guy (like there's an orange underneath). Now when you go to autocross, you'll have the tactile sensations all dialed in and practiced, you'll just be left with figuring out where the threshold of the tires are for the surface that you're running. Just remember everything in autocross can be practiced on the street but at a reduced level of intensity.

I recommend picking one thing to listen to when you drive. So for one cruise on a sunny day, listen to your tires; how they rumble/hum/whine/squeal (and the different levels of squealing) and how they change sound approaching/leaving the limits. On another day, try listening to the engine and so on. Eventually you'll be able to keep your tires at their happy place and will have some of the fastest runs in town ;).

I didn't get my best run on go pro (I'm a gp newb), but here is my video from the weekend. Every corner I trail braked, some less than others and once or twice I over drove the tires...also note this is with my current car (Spec-V), Mexico needs to pick up the pace!!!!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viAzoUnHtsw&list=UUbkGWebKTjbjH8owbc1ho5g

shagghie
09-11-2014, 12:22 AM
what is all this talk about braking? I never brake in auto-cross!


j/k fwiw, I wasn't able to trail-brake very well until I got the RTB installed for some reason. Driver error I'm positive, but the bar seemed to give me the confidence i needed to know where i would 'end up' under trail braking conditions. It also helps to really be thinking about the exit more than anything... looking far down the track and seeing the 'gates' if you will of where you need to be for the next one or two apexes. I don't mean literally two-cone 'gates'...I mean, like, you actually see the apexes and lines come into focus much much earlier on once you get used to looking for down the course, and this helps you know where you need to end up which ultimately informs your decision on your braking even going into the corner. it's like the corollary of "following through" in baseball.

Great advice above on practicing things on the street with less intensity. When i first got this smaller car, I had to learn the corners of the car and did so by purposely driving just inside the raised-surface 'bumps' they have in the roads in so cal (reflector bumps). Goal was to simply get as close as I could without hearing them under the tires too much.

oh wait..TIRES... man, i totally forgot what this thread was about, sorry! time for bed!

jguerdat
09-11-2014, 08:22 AM
what is all this talk about braking? I never brake in auto-cross!

My mantra is, "Wait until you see God. Then brake." Got me in "trouble" with the EVO instructors since I had a sticker of this on my helmet...

Tweak
09-11-2014, 01:09 PM
My mantra is, "Wait until you see God. Then brake." Got me in "trouble" with the EVO instructors since I had a sticker of this on my helmet...

In that case they should have considered themselves "warned". :D