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redred
05-07-2013, 04:00 PM
Road///Race was nice enough to let me do a test fitting of their Intake as well as do some data analysis of it as well. Since i have become somewhat sensitive to heat issues with these cars I want to be sure before I purchase a new intake. I know that the ATM Holy Cowl Intake is being very, very well received, but I just don't want to deal with the added noise in the passenger cabin. I am certain it is an excellent product, but I think the RRM Intake might be a suitable option for performance, noise, and lower IAT.

Again, I used the DashDaq XL for the testing. For some odd reason, I am getting conflicting readings with my DashCommand on my iPhone using a GoPoint BT1a OBDII Bluetooth plug. I think I may not have the settings correct for my Vehicle Profile in DashCommand. For the purposes of this write up I will stick with the DashDaq XL for accuracy.

First of all, a really terrible, out of focus picture of the Intake:


http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk263/staceydodds/RRMIntakeTestFit_zpsc5156e82.png


Now at Idle, the ambient temp outside was around 79 degrees F. Car was stationary and according to the DashDaq XL my IAT (in degrees F) was 82


http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk263/staceydodds/RRMIntakeIdle_zpsebf531a7.png


During the run (sorry for the blurry pic - hard to hold the camera steady) ambient temp outside was reading 79 degrees F still. Car was running at above 6.5k RPM and the IAT was still showing a shocking 82 degrees F.


http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk263/staceydodds/RRMIntake65kRPM_zpsdd2a0841.png


To say I was impressed is an understatement. It should be noted that the car was at operating temps. The engine had been on for quite a while before we did this test run. Engine coolant temps on the DashDaq show that the car was running at correct operating temperature.

I wasn't in a position to buy it yet and had to revert back to stock, but this is definitely on my list for future upgrades.

shagghie
05-07-2013, 04:33 PM
Hey Stacey... too bad about Dashcommand and the BT1, as I was planning on using that combo as well... I should do some comparisions for us between the BT1 and my Kiwi PLX jimmy jammer.

For the tests above, was the hood open during the testing? You would think the IAT would be gobs higher with the filter located smack dab in the middle of the engine bay at the top. 3 degrees is practically no variance at all, especially considering those are *metal* pipes that aren't wrapped... What are we missing here?

Jjm4life
05-07-2013, 07:52 PM
Looks effective, but ridiculous. Nice job with datalogging though. Great to see people getting actual numbers/data

nojeebs
05-07-2013, 07:58 PM
I was going to go with this intake but losing the stock engine cover got me sad. Maybe I'll get to see this in person soon. :)

redred
05-07-2013, 08:35 PM
Hey Stacey... too bad about Dashcommand and the BT1, as I was planning on using that combo as well... I should do some comparisions for us between the BT1 and my Kiwi PLX jimmy jammer.

For the tests above, was the hood open during the testing? You would think the IAT would be gobs higher with the filter located smack dab in the middle of the engine bay at the top. 3 degrees is practically no variance at all, especially considering those are *metal* pipes that aren't wrapped... What are we missing here?

If you get a chance, it would be great to see what the Kiwi PLX does in comparison. I was shocked at the IAT reading difference between the DashDaq XL and the BTIa/DashCommand solution.

Hood was completely closed for the test (the photo of the car running at 6.5k RPM would have been very, very difficult to do with the hood up!)

As for the *metal* pipes, it is double ceramic coated using a dipping process. While the photo makes the pipe look like it's a nicely polished aluminum pipe, it's actually all ceramic. It's much nicer looking in person than my absolutely terrible iPhone photo. When I finally pull the trigger on an Intake I will take better photos.

redred
05-07-2013, 08:36 PM
I was going to go with this intake but losing the stock engine cover got me sad. Maybe I'll get to see this in person soon. :)

Ultimately I will go with this and the RRM engine cover with the carbon fiber accent piece on it. It's a gorgeous looking thing in person.

Tweak
05-07-2013, 09:00 PM
Ultimately I will go with this and the RRM engine cover with the carbon fiber accent piece on it. It's a gorgeous looking thing in person.

Me too...I spoke with DC just today as a matter of fact! :cool:

Glad you could provide better testing and results than I am capable of doing.

Seafarer61
05-08-2013, 02:08 AM
There isn't nearly as much heat in those back areas as people think. People who have data-logged engine bay temps have proven it. I've been tooling around lately in the high 80's and haven't noticed any measurable heat soak issues off the line whatsoever, which is surprising. With an open filter in this engine bay, I expected much worse but the reality is, the major heat is coming at the front end where you would expect. With a turbo blanket or better heat shield in place, things would get even better for those of us with open filters in those areas.

FWIW, I've been discussing some intake "fine-tuning" with a forum vendor here and things are promising. We both agree that removing the stock intake box and using the OEM ram air tube to force cooler air over the engine bay area and into the direction where my filter is currently located would do a great job of lowering temps and bringing even more air to the filter area. I want to do it with a RR heat shield in place but I'm not sure how to incorporate it with the OEM ram air tube. I'm curious if a new section of silicone hose could replace the accordion section but actually have a rectangular snorkel at the end of it (think vacuum cleaner section on the end of a round tube) instead of the hose ending in a round, taller section.

Think here, with Weapon R's ram air intake kit. You can see the end section that I'm referring to. Ignore everything else.
http://www.prostreetonline.com/pso/images/products/838-111_m.jpg
That way, it might actually be able to be nestled UNDER the RR heat shield and blow cooler air over the engine bay but under the shield...instead of over it, retaining the heat shield's look without draping a silicone hose over it, which I would hate.

If that could be made to work, those of us with filters residing on the left side of the engine bay can still enjoy a better performing heat shield over stock because right now, I see no advantage to retaining the stock OEM engine cover over the RR heat shield...especially when it comes to looks but in current form, that OEM ram air tube isn't really doing much, certainly not what it's fully capable of achieving.

shagghie
05-08-2013, 03:27 AM
I think everyone just getting into the CAI research /testing phases for our cars should begin here:
http://www.fiat500usaforum.com/showthread.php?8010-The-Research-and-Development-behind-Ambient-Thermal-Management%92s-%93Holey-Cowl%94-Intake

A lot of time, care, and measurements were taken in finding the best place to locate the filter, and to be sure, under the hood isn't the best place, even just based off of these numbers alone:

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/shagghie/874CDC1F-A1B8-4A0C-AD58-CE0EC444453D-2796-000001D81758ADD2.jpg

The reason they ended up going thru the trouble to design a system that put filter NOT in engine bay, wasn't serendipity or intuition... it was simply measurement and science.

That doesn't mean our cars aren't fun to drive and listen to with the filter getting heatsoaked this summer, but it does mean we shouldn't kid ourselves, either, when/if performance is the goal.

The dyno runs should make that very apparent, and unlike some vendors, these runs were done with the hood closed, lol.

Seafarer61
05-08-2013, 03:52 AM
Shaggie, I believe you love your ATM. smtree2

No doubt, placing the filter behind the cowl is the logical place for it if absolute dyno numbers are your goal but for many, we don't prefer to have our fillings rattle in the process of achieving an ever so slight horsepower bump over the competition's offerings and whatever minute difference there is at peak, it would take a dyno for most to even register it and please, don't quote a 16hp with that intake, that is almost laughable.

You chime in on these intake threads with "put it behind the cowl" commentary but it's obvious if one peruses through the classified section and sees the brand of intake most often being sold, usually within days of purchase, absolute numbers are not what the majority of us are looking for. If I wanted to play the numbers game, I'd have stuck with my 550 hp Camaro SS.

Let's get back to reality. We own a Fiat, not an Enzo. For most of us, our Abarth is a daily driver. I realize behind the cowl is a great place for a conical filter...right up until the moment when I see it sits directly in front of a vent that leads directly into the passenger compartment and the subsequent "fine tuning" efforts like wrapping it in a "diaper" seems to have made little difference...if one is to believe the recent sellers who still think it was too loud. Twenty years ago, owning an intake that could drown out an approaching siren might have appealed to me. Not anymore.

People want an easy to install, easy to access intake that doesn't sound like a sawed-off shotgun and truth be told, doesn't require foam strips nor beg for a basket full of clips that nobody seems to have.


I always enjoy your .02 but it can't always be about numbers alone. No free lunches in mod town. To be fair to ATM, their intake definitely is a great performing one but it most certainly does come with its own negatives which to their credit, they are trying to address.

Stepping off my soap box, this thread topic isn't about which intake is the heat soak king, it's about highlighting the performance of an intake that places the filter where clearly, the majority of Abarth owners want it.

TurboBullett@Ambient Thermal Management
05-08-2013, 05:38 AM
Shaggie, I believe you love your ATM. smtree2

No doubt, placing the filter behind the cowl is the logical place for it if absolute dyno numbers are your goal but for many, we don't prefer to have our fillings rattle in the process of achieving an ever so slight horsepower bump over the competition's offerings and whatever minute difference there is at peak, it would take a dyno for most to even register it and please, don't quote a 16hp with that intake, that is almost laughable.

You chime in on these intake threads with "put it behind the cowl" commentary but it's obvious if one peruses through the classified section and sees the brand of intake most often being sold, usually within days of purchase, absolute numbers are not what the majority of us are looking for. If I wanted to play the numbers game, I'd have stuck with my 550 hp Camaro SS.

Let's get back to reality. We own a Fiat, not an Enzo. For most of us, our Abarth is a daily driver. I realize behind the cowl is a great place for a conical filter...right up until the moment when I see it sits directly in front of a vent that leads directly into the passenger compartment and the subsequent "fine tuning" efforts like wrapping it in a "diaper" seems to have made little difference...if one is to believe the recent sellers who still think it was too loud. Twenty years ago, owning an intake that could drown out an approaching siren might have appealed to me. Not anymore.

People want an easy to install, easy to access intake that doesn't sound like a sawed-off shotgun and truth be told, doesn't require foam strips nor beg for a basket full of clips that nobody seems to have.


I always enjoy your .02 but it can't always be about numbers alone. No free lunches in mod town. To be fair to ATM, their intake definitely is a great performing one but it most certainly does come with its own negatives which to their credit, they are trying to address.

Stepping off my soap box, this thread topic isn't about which intake is the heat soak king, it's about highlighting the performance of an intake that places the filter where clearly, the majority of Abarth owners want it.

The factory sensors give swayed temp readings(ALOT more on that later) we will be rectifying this as we need accurate readings to properly custom tune the car.

The only way to properly test the temps is isolated temp probes one located in an ambient area and the other prior to the compressor. Post IC temps only show the cars ability to cool the charge down in temporary situations. When testing is done this way and it doesnt matter by who 30-80 degree fahrenheiit deltas have been shown,(some use Celsius to try and numb this number down) interestingly enough these "other" testers shrug it off as "not alot" of temp difference yet they Dyno the car with the hood open OR don't dyno at all...Why?

You say there's not alot of power difference and 16hp is laughable, I can gaurantee you in the heat of the summer(especially where you live) that there's at least that much power difference between the HCI and underhood intakes and as things heatsoak likely more. We are cracking the ecu as we speak and will have complete tuning ability shortly, this ecu is AIT centric and power is really affected by heatsoak. As far as sound goes we have lowered sound levels considerably using the K&N pre filter along with a bov plate both. The reason underhood intakes are not as loud is 2 fold: you have the firewall there that absorbs the sound and underhood intake filter size as well as plumbing size(2"id vs 2.25"id is much smaller than the filter in our kit, this restricts the sound in these intakes.)

You say power is not important as we drive an Abarth not an Enzo. to us power production is important, especially if that is what you are buying an intake for. In general people generally flock to a tuner with a similar attitude I'm glad you found your match, the people that own and run our intake are the people we want as customers ... As the future unfolds and we continue to release parts that work together not against each other,this will become painfully obvious. We have been down this road before when we helped AWE develop their b5 S4 line of parts, other tuners claimed the world and tried to negate our efforts BUT when the cars started lining up on the road and track and the performance was directly compared apples to apples the truth came out, as it will in this case. Summers a comin' and things are heating up!

Seafarer61
05-08-2013, 07:12 AM
You say there's not alot of power difference and 16hp is laughable, I can gaurantee you in the heat of the summer(especially where you live) that there's at least that much power difference between the HCI and underhood intakes and as things heatsoak likely more.

It's already "the heat of the summer" here in south Florida with the temps reaching high 80's. I'm not experiencing any adverse heat soak issues to date with my intake of choice. It will occasionally get to the mid 90's beginning in June, lasting through September but usually, temps hover around high 80's, low 90's at peak. Perhaps then I'll notice a bit of bog off the line if I'm stuck in traffic and idling for five minutes but I'm not racing anyone at idle nor during gridlock so I'm not terribly concerned and let's be frank, the difference between your product and the two leading competitors at WOT would take a dyno to reveal and even then, it's not going to be dramatic. I'm far too old and have owned far too many high performance automobiles to think of candy tubes with conical ends as game changing.


We are cracking the ecu as we speak and will have complete tuning ability shortly, this ecu is AIT centric and power is really affected by heatsoak.
Recently introduced turbo blankets will address a good part of heat soak concern for us open bay filter fellas and should help considerably. As I noted, I've been driving around with temps in the mid to high 80's and I haven't noticed any drop in performance that would make me unsatisfied with my intake purchase. At WOT, it honks as it should and the short ram pulls like a freight train compared to stock.


The reason underhood intakes are not as loud is 2 fold: you have the firewall there that absorbs the sound and underhood intake filter size as well as plumbing size(2"id vs 2.25"id is much smaller than the filter in our kit, this restricts the sound in these intakes.)
You've illustrated one of my points. People choose intakes for more reasons than simply dyno numbers. As a result of a filter's location nestled in the back yet behind the firewall, the end result is an acceptable compromise that places your competition between extreme performance and livability. In truth, I don't ever recall seeing any post where the owner of a competing intake chimed in with "gee, at WOT with my intake, all I could think was, 'I wish I had bought the other one.'" Week after week, I read of satisfied customers who have purchased intakes which place the filter on the engine side of the cowl. For most of these owners, they made their own personal choice as to what was more important for them, an intake that sacrifices a few horsepower for an aggressive sound that is not intrusive or for ATM fans, one that delivers the most bang regardless of noise.


You say power is not important as we drive an Abarth not an Enzo, to us it is. Careful there. That is absolutely not what I said. Might I suggest you return to my comment and read it again. My comment was about PERSPECTIVE. Many of us are not horsepower junkies in search of every single pony to be had, regardless of any negatives which are presented as a result. I've been down that road before with many cars that would have you looking at the sky when the pedal was fully engaged. I understand that passion, believe me I do. However, most Abarth owners either by choice or necessity, have to find balance or middle ground with our aftermarket purchases and "power at all costs" is not a buying decree. You position yourself in the camp of "power...power" and yet was forced to scramble to resolve noise problems that in truth, had probably not occurred to you at introduction so to some degree, you acknowledge the importance of balance, even to your own product. My analogy with the Enzo was to highlight that a single-purposefully minded automobile like that has but one purpose. Our Abarths are usually multi-purpose, serving both to take us to work and to dodge cones or tear up the tarmac. That was the purpose of the quip. No such words by me expressed that "power is not important."

I understand your desire to want to defend your product each time I highlight the other side of the coin in these intake threads however, I did not bring up your intake in this thread. I only addressed the statements Shaggie highlighted in advancing his case that your intake should be considered the go-to option in a thread highlighting another competitor's product. That is certainly his right to "make the case" but it is also my right as someone who has purchased 20-25 intakes since 1979 to take a more balanced approach knowing for most of us, outright performance is not always our chief pursuit. We have others in the seats with us who might not see things our way. Life is full of compromises as I'm sure you're aware. I have been complimentary to your effort with regards to its purpose of providing the best bang for the buck. Clearly moving a conical filter to the cowl area is the best place for it. I've made that clear but I also feel I am being honest by reiterating the concerns of others who have chimed in quite frequently as to sound issues which ultimately forced them to sell their intake. We'll get many Abarth newbies down the road who will turn to the search engine for intake info and I think it's a good thing we're having this discourse. Nothing said here will make or break a sale. People who want performance without compromise will yield to your efforts, no doubt.

In general people generally flock to a tuner with a similar attitude I'm glad you found your match... As the future unfolds and we continue to release parts that work together not against each other,this will become painfully obvious.
You would be negligent in not defending your product. I get that. However, even tuners must at some point, will acknowledge that a balance must exist between performance and driveability if sales to the general public...and not simply results on a dyno or race track...are the goal. When I chimed in above, it wasn't to discuss the merits of your product, it was to address ways to make open bay intakes such as RR and Eurocompulsion's even better.

At some point, people need to acknowledge that there isn't just one path to the beach as it is commonly suggested during these intake threads. Several vendors make damn fine intakes for our Abarths. There isn't just one answer. You guys make a great performing intake but your own efforts to decrease its noise suggests you yourself, understood there were issues that needed to be addressed if sales to the average owner are to flourish and that has always been my point. Every coin, two sides. Performance/livability.

Nonetheless, despite our discourse, I applaud your exhaustive efforts, look forward to future products and remain a fan.

TurboBullett@Ambient Thermal Management
05-08-2013, 07:26 AM
We always strive to improve our products, for the sound guys we have done an extremely large amount of R&D and have learned alot in regards to quelling sound. When the filter cover and bov plate are used I would be willing to bet soun levels are very close to your intake.

As far as showing differences as I said Im really not a dyno person, people linking up and racing is one way doing in gear acceleration testing/time is another. This car has heat issues this heat drastically affects performance especially when the ICs heatsoak. The power curve in these situations doesn't even look like the same car, look up our dynos, go fiats original dyno and the dyno of the mm intake where heatsoak came into play when done properly with the hood closed.


It's already "the heat of the summer" here in south Florida with the temps reaching high 80's. I'm not experiencing any adverse heat soak issues to date with my intake of choice. It will occasionally get to the mid 90's beginning in June, lasting through September but usually, temps hover around high 80's, low 90's at peak. Perhaps then I'll notice a bit of bog off the line if I'm stuck in traffic and idling for five minutes but I'm not racing anyone at idle nor during gridlock so I'm not terribly concerned and let's be frank, the difference between your product and the two leading competitors at WOT would take a dyno to reveal and even then, it's not going to be dramatic. I'm far too old and have owned far too many high performance automobiles to think of candy tubes with conical ends as game changing.

Recently introduced turbo blankets will address a good part of heat soak concern for us open bay filter fellas and should help considerably. As I noted, I've been driving around with temps in the mid to high 80's and I haven't noticed any drop in performance that would make me unsatisfied with my intake purchase. At WOT, it honks as it should and the short ram pulls like a freight train compared to stock.

You've illustrated one of my points. People choose intakes for more reasons than simply dyno numbers. As a result of a filter's location nestled in the back yet behind the firewall, the end result is an acceptable compromise that places your competition between extreme performance and livability. In truth, I don't ever recall seeing any post where the owner of a competing intake chimed in with "gee, at WOT with my intake, all I could think was, 'I wish I had bought the other one.'" Week after week, I read of satisfied customers who have purchased intakes which place the filter on the engine side of the cowl. For most of these owners, they made their own personal choice as to what was more important for them, an intake that sacrifices a few horsepower for an aggressive sound that is not intrusive or for ATM fans, one that delivers the most bang regardless of noise.
Careful there. That is absolutely not what I said. Might I suggest you return to my comment and read it again. My comment was about PERSPECTIVE. Many of us are not horsepower junkies in search of every single pony to be had, regardless of any negatives which are presented as a result. I've been down that road before with many cars that would have you looking at the sky when the pedal was fully engaged. I understand that passion, believe me I do. However, most Abarth owners either by choice or necessity, have to find balance or middle ground with our aftermarket purchases and "power at all costs" is not a buying decree. You position yourself in the camp of "power...power" and yet was forced to scramble to resolve noise problems that in truth, had probably not occurred to you at introduction so to some degree, you acknowledge the importance of balance, even to your own product. My analogy with the Enzo was to highlight that a single-purposefully minded automobile like that has but one purpose. Our Abarths are usually multi-purpose, serving both to take us to work and to dodge cones or tear up the tarmac. That was the purpose of the quip. No such words by me expressed that "power is not important."

I understand your desire to want to defend your product each time I highlight the other side of the coin in these intake threads however, I did not bring up your intake in this thread. I only addressed the statements Shaggie highlighted in advancing his case that your intake should be considered the go-to option in a thread highlighting another competitor's product. That is certainly his right to "make the case" but it is also my right as someone who has purchased 20-25 intakes since 1979 to take a more balanced approach knowing for most of us, outright performance is not always our chief pursuit. We have others in the seats with us who might not see things our way. Life is full of compromises as I'm sure you're aware. I have been complimentary to your effort with regards to its purpose of providing the best bang for the buck. Clearly moving a conical filter to the cowl area is the best place for it. I've made that clear but I also feel I am being honest by reiterating the concerns of others who have chimed in quite frequently as to sound issues which ultimately forced them to sell their intake. We'll get many Abarth newbies down the road who will turn to the search engine for intake info and I think it's a good thing we're having this discourse. Nothing said here will make or break a sale. People who want performance without compromise will yield to your efforts, no doubt.

You would be negligent in not defending your product. I get that. However, even tuners must at some point, will acknowledge that a balance must exist between performance and driveability if sales to the general public...and not simply results on a dyno or race track...are the goal. When I chimed in above, it wasn't to discuss the merits of your product, it was to address ways to make open bay intakes such as RR and Eurocompulsion's even better.

At some point, people need to acknowledge that there isn't just one path to the beach as it is commonly suggested during these intake threads. Several vendors make damn fine intakes for our Abarths. There isn't just one answer. You guys make a great performing intake but your own efforts to decrease its noise suggests you yourself, understood there were issues that needed to be addressed if sales to the average owner are to flourish and that has always been my point. Every coin, two sides. Performance/livability.

Nonetheless, despite our discourse, I applaud your exhaustive efforts, look forward to future products and remain a fan.

Seafarer61
05-08-2013, 09:35 AM
As far as showing differences as I said Im really not a dyno person, people linking up and racing is one way doing in gear acceleration testing/time is another.

I agree, real-world results are where it's at but then you introduce so many other factors into the equation, it becomes nonsensical to compare products. Drivers have different skill sets and cars have manufacturing tolerances that often result in identical engines having two entirely different baselines. With that in place, it would be impossible to compare product A with product B in any kind of accelerometer testing with two different Abarths and two different drivers. Awhile back, an offer was made to compare your intake to a competitor using a stock Abarth, if memory serves me. No tune, no piggybacks. Just a wrench, install and dyno. I have yet to see that occur. It would put a lot of this back and forth to rest, wouldn't you say?

A dyno comparison, same day, same car would tell the entire story. All variables are removed. If it performs on the rollers, logic says it will deliver on the road.

I don't want to beat this into submission here as I feel most of my observations have already been made. You obviously have a horse in this race whereas I do not. I'm not trying to sell anything or defend my product that another forum member is commenting on. There has been nothing inaccurate written about my observations, shared by many, which can be summed up with "You make a great intake that is loud." However, far too many of these intake threads start with good discourse and denigrate into "my behind the cowl intake can beat up your short ram" and frankly, it's getting a bit too predictable. This thread is about an engine bay intake and an owner's favorable impression of it. I attempted to advance it by discussing ways we can make these kind of intakes even more proficient and with Pavlovian predictability, it turned into another "behind the cowl" discussion about intake temps. The owner already bought his intake, as did I. Clearly if intake temps were our primary concern, we would have chosen something else. They are not and I suspect, other Eurocompulsion and Road Race intake fans won't be selling theirs anytime soon either. The amount of satisfied owners chiming in after install pretty much says it all and I'll just leave it at that.

TurboBullett@Ambient Thermal Management
05-08-2013, 01:17 PM
We would definitely put our intake up against any other same day same car 3rd gear acceleration run 2000-6000 rpm, run datalogs and compare time stamps, this can't be fudged, as well as same day dyno testing. As far as compromises yeah it's louder for the reasons given in my prior post. The HCI also makes ALOT more power all the time this is by design as we have a large unrestricted filter with internal velocity cone that matches our velocity stack and larger diameter silicone. This power increase is always there independant of the cars speed. As you have said people choose parts for different reasons, our customers understand the data we show and can clearly see that underhood intakes actually lose power with the hood closed(not my opinion there are at least 3 INDEPENDANT dynos on 2 different intakes that show this) if this weren't the case and temps dont make a difference then intake manufacturers would dyno the intakes with the hood closed and not resort to correction factors. These underhood intakes are going to great for our FMIC sales as people can get back the power and efficiency lost on the inlet side of the turbo by improving pressure and temperature drops on the charge side.

As far as sound we have quieted the HCI considerably with the foam cover and bov plate, it's honestly very liveable and the sounds we were dealing with and the above parts address are both caused by the factory bypass valve system (wot whistle and resonance when the bypass reintroduces air back into the compressor inlet).

Just an FYI we are going to be custom making a forum member an assetto corsa intake and have custom developed a filter that will shield against engine bay temps, if this works out and makes power compared to the factory box in same conditions) we may manufacture them for the public as it will be based off of our current silicone tube.




I agree, real-world results are where it's at but then you introduce so many other factors into the equation, it becomes nonsensical to compare products. Drivers have different skill sets and cars have manufacturing tolerances that often result in identical engines having two entirely different baselines. With that in place, it would be impossible to compare product A with product B in any kind of accelerometer testing with two different Abarths and two different drivers. Awhile back, an offer was made to compare your intake to a competitor using a stock Abarth, if memory serves me. No tune, no piggybacks. Just a wrench, install and dyno. I have yet to see that occur. It would put a lot of this back and forth to rest, wouldn't you say?

A dyno comparison, same day, same car would tell the entire story. All variables are removed. If it performs on the rollers, logic says it will deliver on the road.

I don't want to beat this into submission here as I feel most of my observations have already been made. You obviously have a horse in this race whereas I do not. I'm not trying to sell anything or defend my product that another forum member is commenting on. There has been nothing inaccurate written about my observations, shared by many, which can be summed up with "You make a great intake that is loud." However, far too many of these intake threads start with good discourse and denigrate into "my behind the cowl intake can beat up your short ram" and frankly, it's getting a bit too predictable. This thread is about an engine bay intake and an owner's favorable impression of it. I attempted to advance it by discussing ways we can make these kind of intakes even more proficient and with Pavlovian predictability, it turned into another "behind the cowl" discussion about intake temps. The owner already bought his intake, as did I. Clearly if intake temps were our primary concern, we would have chosen something else. They are not and I suspect, other Eurocompulsion and Road Race intake fans won't be selling theirs anytime soon either. The amount of satisfied owners chiming in after install pretty much says it all and I'll just leave it at that.

redred
05-08-2013, 01:23 PM
I am definitely not knocking the ATM HCI. I think it is a pretty cool setup. However, when it comes down to having to choose between my Intake or my Wife, then I am sorry, but the Wife wins. She will NOT stand for that sort of noise levels. Perhaps the mods decrease the noise somewhat, but not entirely (as outlined in several posts).

I think it is great what ATM is doing for the hard core guys. ATM to me is like Jeremy Clarkson with only one thing on his mind..... POWER!!!! I think that is great and I look forward to seeing what else they come out with. However, as Seafarer61 points out above, there is a large portion of the community who have to have these cars as a daily driver and need to compromise between all out power upgrades, and sensible ones that give you excellent gains, but are a little more subdued.

One other thing that should be noted. I was able to do this test fitting for one big reason. This thing is extremely easy to install. And it is also extremely easy to remove and put the stock box back on. The intake uses the same vacuum hoses that the stock one uses. I think that is a crucial piece to this. If you should ever choose to sell the car, or god forbid, have to take the car in for some serious service, then it is nice to know that you could install the stock air box easily. There are other options on the market for Intakes, and most of them are just as easy to install and remove. However, some are not.

By the way.... don't break the stock hose part. Mine was split when it was removed (not this time, but another time) and I had to order a replacement from Fiat. They don't sell just that one part. You have to order the whole assembly. It is called the Wastegate Solenoid Harness and it snakes around the engine bay. It costs around $84.00 and it looks like it will take about an hour or two to install.

This is the part that was removed from my car with the previous intake installed:


http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk263/staceydodds/file_zps61a55980.jpg


http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk263/staceydodds/file_zps2cdb1e92.jpg


This is the replacement.


http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk263/staceydodds/file_zps2f79e231.jpg


I have outlined on the photo where the original part was removed on the previous install. The rest of the harness was still in the car, but Fiat will not sell just the hose assembly after the T-Junction. You have to buy the whole part from them.

TurboBullett@Ambient Thermal Management
05-08-2013, 01:52 PM
The HCI uses all factory lines...

In your pics It looks like the hose was cut with a razor to remove in that pic. As far as the noise those that have done the foam cover and bov plate have all said how much more sedate the intake has gotten(some have said too quiet) both parts are needed as they address 2 different issues with the bypass valve system. My point is and I'm saying this as an ecu tuner not someone with an intake to sell is ingesting hot air robs power on these cars, if it didn't then dynos would be done correctly with the hood closed without correction factors. They may make power on a cold car but once things heat up this heat heatsoaks all the other components including your intercoolers oil and coolant. I've been tuning turbo cars for over 20 years and this is by far the worst in regards to underhood heat and the ecu 's response to it. As I said if you want the power back + our FMIC will give it to you as it gives back on the charge side what is lost on the inlet side.


Oh and thanks for the Jeremy Clarkson comparison I like that...Wego thinks he's the Stig.

I am definitely not knocking the ATM HCI. I think it is a pretty cool setup. However, when it comes down to having to choose between my Intake or my Wife, then I am sorry, but the Wife wins. She will NOT stand for that sort of noise levels. Perhaps the mods decrease the noise somewhat, but not entirely (as outlined in several posts).

I think it is great what ATM is doing for the hard core guys. ATM to me is like Jeremy Clarkson with only one thing on his mind..... POWER!!!! I think that is great and I look forward to seeing what else they come out with. However, as Seafarer61 points out above, there is a large portion of the community who have to have these cars as a daily driver and need to compromise between all out power upgrades, and sensible ones that give you excellent gains, but are a little more subdued.

One other thing that should be noted. I was able to do this test fitting for one big reason. This thing is extremely easy to install. And it is also extremely easy to remove and put the stock box back on. The intake uses the same vacuum hoses that the stock one uses. I think that is a crucial piece to this. If you should ever choose to sell the car, or god forbid, have to take the car in for some serious service, then it is nice to know that you could install the stock air box easily. There are other options on the market for Intakes, and most of them are just as easy to install and remove. However, some are not.

By the way.... don't break the stock hose part. Mine was split when it was removed (not this time, but another time) and I had to order a replacement from Fiat. They don't sell just that one part. You have to order the whole assembly. It is called the Wastegate Solenoid Harness and it snakes around the engine bay. It costs around $84.00 and it looks like it will take about an hour or two to install.

This is the part that was removed from my car with the previous intake installed:


http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk263/staceydodds/file_zps61a55980.jpg


http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk263/staceydodds/file_zps2cdb1e92.jpg


This is the replacement.


http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk263/staceydodds/file_zps2f79e231.jpg


I have outlined on the photo where the original part was removed on the previous install. The rest of the harness was still in the car, but Fiat will not sell just the hose assembly after the T-Junction. You have to buy the whole part from them.

shagghie
05-08-2013, 02:00 PM
There isn't nearly as much heat in those back areas as people think. People who have data-logged engine bay temps have proven it. With a turbo blanket or better heat shield in place, things would get even better for those of us with open filters in those areas.

Hey Seafarer61... I'm sorry, I didn't mean to stir up a hornet's nest. I was half asleep when I made that post last night. Re-reading your original post, I pulled out the bits that I meant to address directly with my post, in the edited quote from you above ^^^. I basically just meant to say "there IS much more heat under the hood than people realize, and that this should not be minimized when selecting an intake for this engine in particular. I don't disagree with 95% of what you wrote afterwards, either. Indeed there are always compromises and *most* of us may not like as loud an intake. I'm 40 years old and I am close to that age too, where you like a more civilized experience in the cabin. That said, I think ATM is correct in saying after getting a BOV and adding the filter sock, the ride is more than just tolerable, it's actually much closer to how any intake I've ever had installed sounds like from the cabin in the VAG tuning world I'm familiar with.
My post wasn't meant to come across as 'ATM fanboy'...even though clearly I am, but that fanaticism is indeed tied to max performance, as well as my experience in dealing with them and the amount of care, time, and testing they put into all their products...but even more than anything, their willingness to listen, do R&D, and respond with solutions. It wouldn't even surprise me if they came out with an entirely different filter location altogether, in other words. ATM is not 'synonymous' with behind the cowl filter place, in other words. But you have subsequently already pointed that out about them in other posts here and elsewhere.

On the turbo-blanket...I have one on order as well, and I like the idea very much. I'm not certain it will help under-hood temps in general, however, as I look at it more in terms of keeping the cold side of the turbo cooler, and the hot side hotter for faster exhaust egress velocities. Whether that means the back of the engine bay will end up a few degrees cooler, I don't know either way. :-)

Last thing I must say after having worked on Fiats since I was 7 years old with my pop, and all through my life...is that the name 'Abarth', if it means anything, and if this car exists on earth to be ONE thing, it is to be maxed out in performance however small are large the performance increment is, and all in the name of going faster in a small car and pushing the envelope. Almost as much as any other tuning name on earth, ABARTH means precisely that. I don't mean that as a soapbox, and I know you more than most based on other posts we've shared in together already, already know that and LOVE it as much as I do. But this car, to me at least, is about that more than anything... the hack, the journey, the dream, of micro-improvements, that when combined, equal the smallest most wicked car you could ever hope to drive. And all this only backs up everything you just recently said, too... a car is different to each owner, indeed. My two closest local Abarth friends are DeeFourTay and DJHace... and I LOVE that DJHace looks at me like I'm crazy half the time for even touching a car that is so damned near perfect out of the box. And DeeFourTay that flogs the CRAP out of his Abarth around the cones, came in first in the Abarth Experience auto-cross out of 50 people, but still wants his car to look and sound/feel as clean as possible on the street. I even have mornings I wake up wishing I had just left well-enough alone and didn't have to clear out another P1CEA code because of a $1.95 check valve mod to address a boost leak we are still trying to nail down. But now it's about the journey to do so, and not about the 6hp potential gain of addressing the boost leak, lol. It's personal. It's OCD. It's game time.
I'm just as happy to see RedRed install the RRM intake and engine cover as anyone else, in other words... especially after everything he went through with the first intake he owned. The best part about this fledgling community is how the vendors are all stepping up and taking risks for this 'new' car here in North America, something for everyone already, and it's only getting better with time. That's one reason I'm running the HCI, too... because as we start to push into the next stages of tuning, the air intake will end up being the single biggest limiting factor and/or unlock for the tune. I mean I have never seen in 20 years, an 10% increase in power that you can FEEL in the seat of your pants, with the simple addition of a CAI... a sure indication that once we get a tune, all hell is going to break loose on the street AND the track! :-)

I'm about as long-winded as you are apparently when it comes to these cars... my apologies to RedRed for taking this thread down a comparison path, as opposed to a data logging path on the intake he just tested. I am bummed about the comment that the data we get off of OBD2 isn't always reliable, too, as I monitor AFR, IAT, etc. constantly via DashCommand every day.... darn!

redred
05-08-2013, 02:42 PM
Well said Shaggie. In the end there are many of us who are absolute fanatics about these cars. I simply LOVE the fact that there are vendors out there trying to make things better for these cars and I really love guys like you who are willing to make serious changes to their cars just to get a little bit more out of them. I think it's great and I applaud it.

After my previous experiences, I want to be 100% sure of the mod I put on my car. I do not want to have to go through what I went through the last time so I am being quite a bit more cautious.

Seafarer61
05-08-2013, 03:46 PM
Shaggie, it's all good. We're all being respectful in here about our passion for these wonderful rides. My initial point which may have been misinterpreted was to illustrate that the temps in the back of the engine bay, nestled alongside the firewall, aren't nearly as hot as those in the front, which definitely DO get ridiculous. People tend to view the engine bay as one big heat soak area when in fact, some areas are significantly cooler than others. ATM confirmed this themselves with their own findings. Now, HOW much difference is either going to be acceptable to some or not. All I can say is I've had my Abarth out there, flogging in temps that are already "summer time heat" for the majority of the country, and have noticed no significant drop in performance, either off the line or especially during WOT. My Abarth with the Eurocompulsion flat out scoots. I suspect the turbo blanket will improve things as well. Despite what some might infer, I'm a big fan of the ATM intake and I definitely can understand the passion you guys have for it but in truth, that enthusiasm often comes across as dismissive towards the other vendors and their alternatives and I do appreciate your willingness to see that perhaps, that passion might come off as such. Obviously some manufacturers....or shall we say, vendors, have stumbled a bit with one or two of their offerings but I believe those issues were quickly resolved. My favorite intake for this car is Road Race's but I couldn't justify the expense. I like ATM's but felt there were too many "fix-its" in the works for me to go that route. Clips, covers, foam tape, etc. I like to chase final editions, so to speak, and have much less time than I would like, to tinker with a new purchase to make it work the way I would like. For others, that is inconsequential and thus we're back to original points about personal reasons and why we chose what we chose.

Perhaps if there was a dyno comparo between theirs and a few of the others, all of this back and forth would be put to rest. I think the end result can only really be one of two scenarios. Either the ATM kills the other intakes or the difference is marginal, which then changes the narrative entirely and truth be told, would hurt sales, so I can see why this hasn't been done to date by either parties. It might be awhile before someone has the scratch to buy two or three intakes to test them out and it doesn't appear as though any of the vendors are willing to go that route themselves so in the end, we must appeal to ourselves and figure all this out as real-world Abarth owners, which leads me back to my original point. We all make our decisions but that certainly doesn't mean we have to stop tinkering to make our purchase even better. I like short rams...always have. I don't view an intake on a turbocharged car as anything game changing. I prefer better flow, less bends...a bit of honk and I'm fine. Others might have more extreme goals and that's ok too. There are some areas in which I don't like to compromise much at all (wheels for example, I prefer 16-inch and the lighter the better....why? Because I'm 6-4, 265 :p ). I guess if I hadn't come out of several cars in the past, all pushing more than 500 horsepower, I'd be more inclined to chase ponies with my Abarth but truth be told, in bone stock form with absolutely zero mods, it's a gem as is. Warts and all.

Three pedals...one road. We're all crazy Abarth owners who have much more in common than what separates us. As always, appreciate your passion and input.

redred
05-08-2013, 04:00 PM
Three pedals...one road. We're all crazy Abarth owners who have much more in common than what separates us.

Best quote I've read all day!

"Three Pedals, One Road" could be an amazing marketing slogan for someones company.

TurboBullett@Ambient Thermal Management
05-08-2013, 08:33 PM
Best quote I've read all day!

"Three Pedals, One Road" could be an amazing marketing slogan for someones company.

That is an awesome quote, sorry if we come across strong at times but that's how much we believe in our parts on a personal as well as scientific level backed by over 20 years of tuning and designing parts for turbo vehicles.

Again we will put our intake up head to head against any other as long as the testing is fair and done by a competent party with no bias.

Dr. FIAT
05-08-2013, 09:58 PM
As someone with only a stock intake, I would like to applaud all of you for the maturity of the posts. We all want different things. But to see vendors and customers so passionate about their products, and most of all, the Abarth enthusiasts about their own cars, makes me so glad that I purchased this awesome vehicle. I drove around pissed off the first few weeks because I couldn't understand how ANYONE couldn't see how special this car is....then I realized that I KNEW IT. And that's all that matters really.

Redred- looking forward to hearing more about this intake. Thanks for posting!

Darin

Seafarer61
05-08-2013, 11:46 PM
That is an awesome quote, sorry if we come across strong at times but that's how much we believe in our parts on a personal as well as scientific level backed by over 20 years of tuning and designing parts for turbo vehicles.


Without the aid of looking at another automobile enthusiast in the eyes, it's easy within auto forums for us all to read words but hear annoyance. If I come across as anything but passionate, I have failed in making my points. I remember ten years ago...the first time I met 20-odd local S2000 owners I would engage in online...during a local gathering between us and NSX owners. We all got along great but you would think within the first ten minutes, there was going to be a "knock down, drag out" based on previous forum brawls amongst ourselves :p Ultimately, using Shaggie as an example, how could I not get along great with someone who appreciates my Abarth as much as I would no doubt, admire his...and you guys should be applauded for taking Fiat tuning so seriously. We all know there is so much untapped potential with these Italian gems, we need serious tuners who want to raise the barometer the right way and clearly, you guys get that.

On the way into work tonight, at a stoplight, right after I downshifted to it...someone began waving their hands at me while idling alongside. I lowered my window and all the guy wanted was to tell me...and I quote..."good God man, that thing sounds incredible." A tiny-four cylinder gets flagged down for a spittin' and backfiring rally-esque exhaust note.

gotta love it.

http://media-cache-ak1.pinimg.com/originals/51/66/10/5166101b7c53287ef6890ca94a8756e8.jpg

redred
05-09-2013, 06:04 PM
Man that Assetto Corse race car looks sooooo good! That is such a great pic!

I too have had several people pull up to me asking me if I have an aftermarket exhaust. I just smile and tell them that it is stock from the factory and they are always amazed. It truly is an amazing sounding car! Even if you do put an aftermarket exhaust on the car, it still has a very distinct tone to it.

Abarth Five O
05-09-2013, 07:43 PM
Nice pic, Seafarer61! Thanks for sharing. I'm liking the metal Abarth front grill more and more...

erland
05-10-2013, 07:55 PM
That's a great picture. I am glad I am not in the car, but the picture is cool.

redred
05-15-2013, 04:38 PM
Well after much consideration I am going to be going with this intake on the car. Price, fit, finish and performance all fit my needs. I'll post some more review info once it's installed on the car.

Tweak
05-16-2013, 12:23 AM
Well after much consideration I am going to be going with this intake on the car. Price, fit, finish and performance all fit my needs. I'll post some more review info once it's installed on the car.

Right on Stacey, I like mine and I am sure you'll enjoy yours too. :cool:

RoadRace
05-16-2013, 05:50 PM
Glad for this post, I just found it. That said we have similar results and reports of results of less than 7 degrees over outside temps on car from Canada to Florida. Furthermore, I did not go read the entire thread but I know this car and the other ones that reported this info to me since this was posted are guys that still do not have our heat shield or any kind of hood vent!!!! It can really only get better than this. Wow

ROAD/RACE

Abarth Five O
05-16-2013, 07:51 PM
Good choice Redred. I'm glad I got the heat shield. CF Trofeo styled hood vents are high up on my list.

redred
05-16-2013, 07:54 PM
Yeah the newer Heat Shield with CF backing is also very high on the list for me as well. That thing is gorgeous!

Tweak
05-16-2013, 10:27 PM
Yeah the newer Heat Shield with CF backing is also very high on the list for me as well. That thing is gorgeous!

Yes it is! :cool:

Abarth Five O
05-16-2013, 11:30 PM
Yeah the newer Heat Shield with CF backing is also very high on the list for me as well. That thing is gorgeous!

I'm tempted to send mine back to R/R for a re-do.

Abarthman
05-17-2013, 12:45 PM
[QUOTE=TurboBullett@Ambient Thermal Management;605099

Just an FYI we are going to be custom making a forum member an assetto corsa intake and have custom developed a filter that will shield against engine bay temps, if this works out and makes power compared to the factory box in same conditions) we may manufacture them for the public as it will be based off of our current silicone tube.

When you get this developed, if it has the belmouth intake and a shield around it to block the heat from the engine compartment WITH a conical, low-restriction intake, I'll take one too.....

redred
05-19-2013, 07:12 PM
Intake and Heat Shield installed:


http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk263/staceydodds/null_zps0d125725.jpg


http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk263/staceydodds/null_zps3a002cd2.jpg


http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk263/staceydodds/null_zpsbd6e7966.jpg


And the car after a nice wash


http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk263/staceydodds/null_zps3f385a2e.jpg


http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk263/staceydodds/null_zps9870f918.jpg

RoadRace
05-19-2013, 07:59 PM
Looks great but how does it run for you? By the way, when you get a chance see if it runs cooler now that you have the heat shield. I'll bet it is good for a couple more degrees!!

ROAD/RACE

Abarth Five O
05-19-2013, 08:56 PM
The black heat shield w/CF looks real sharp! Good choice!

RoadRace
05-19-2013, 08:56 PM
Again, I am loving the Shield, just hate the dusk particles.

ROAD/RACE

Tweak
05-19-2013, 10:08 PM
Jeez Stacey, couldn't even wipe off the dust before snapping the pics...lol. :p

As I said already, looks cool and sounds great, everyone is always gawking over mine at meets, can't wait to get my heat shield!!!

Mr. Man
05-20-2013, 09:20 AM
That heat shield is sexy, I'm definitely picking one up when I can

RoadRace
05-20-2013, 09:36 AM
That heat shield is sexy, I'm definitely picking one up when I can

Form and function. This is the Italian Way.

ROAD/RACE

redred
05-20-2013, 12:04 PM
Well now..... I know I need to take a new pic without all the dust. I tried cleaning off the heat shield, but my microfiber cloths were in the wash so I just used a paper towel. So... word to the wise... don't use paper towel!!!

Anyways, I cannot get over the performance. 3 - 4k RPM range is vastly improved and much more steady than stock. The thing that really impresses me is the sound. It's not just the Turbo sounds either. Yes, it has the blow off sounds and chattering, but it also has something else that I didn't expect. It sounds like an intake that is mounted on a N/A car. It has this low end rumble to it that just adds a whole new dimension to the overall sound from the front of the car. I am really, really enjoying it so far!

Under hood temps are also improved. Haven't hooked up the DashDaq XL yet, but like everyone else who has this Intake has said, you can go for a nice hard run... stop.... open the hood and put your hand right on the intake pipes. Engine is nice and toasty, but the intake pipe is only mildly warm to the touch. Very very impressive.

I have also ordered a PTP Turbo Blanket so that should only help even more with the under hood temps.

RoadRace
05-21-2013, 07:46 PM
Understand that 3-4 K surge of power is simply explained. This intake has proven to be boosting and extra 1.5 psi of boost over anything else out there. Couple that with the amazingly low intake temps and you have a solid platform to boost more like you get from the RRM ECM. So far there is nothing matching the boost levels and quick spool up of this combo. We have had the chance to try some other ones and just do some basic comparisons but it proved to be boost more and faster than the comp's. Glad you are happy. Now if we can just get these racing Abarths to stay on their wheels huh?

ROAD/RACE

Mr. Man
05-22-2013, 03:48 AM
Understand that 3-4 K surge of power is simply explained. This intake has proven to be boosting and extra 1.5 psi of boost over anything else out there. Couple that with the amazingly low intake temps and you have a solid platform to boost more like you get from the RRM ECM. So far there is nothing matching the boost levels and quick spool up of this combo. We have had the chance to try some other ones and just do some basic comparisons but it proved to be boost more and faster than the comp's. Glad you are happy. Now if we can just get these racing Abarths to stay on their wheels huh?

ROAD/RACE

In the words of Jeremy Clarkson: "Some poo has come out!"
http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Picture-111.jpg

redred
06-30-2013, 07:44 PM
Here is what impressed me immensely yesterday at Streets of Willow. On the drive home, ambient temps were 112 degrees F.

Here is what DashCommand was showing as my intake temp:

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk263/staceydodds/null_zps965ee042.png

24 degree rise in temp over ambient with a completely heat soaked engine bay. I think that's pretty impressive!

Chico Valdez
07-01-2013, 12:38 AM
Now if we can just get these racing Abarths to stay on their wheels huh?

That's just a rolling-resistance-reduction strategy...

RoadRace
07-01-2013, 11:02 AM
THanks for having the presence of mind to even try that. I know you had borderline sun stroke when you left. There were heat issues even with powder coated wheels and lugs coming loose. It was HOT. HOT like melting valve stems hot! Great info though on our intakes. Nothing gets hotter than yesterday. We were about 100 miles from Death Valley so.......

ROAD/RACE