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View Full Version : ECU and Intake Gains, straight from the Dyno! 15HP GAINS FROM HIGH-FLOW INTAKE!!!!!!



MADNESSLuckyJay
03-19-2013, 02:20 PM
We have several graphs all loaded up and ready for you guys to digest! Will be posting each graph individually so you have the ability to comment on each one!
We adjusted the numbers from the Dyno to compensate for loss, we calculated that 12% was the difference from the hub to the crank, so that is the number we used for adjusting, for the most part that puts the Baseline runs at (or close to) 160HP.

First up, the Baseline VS Stock ECU and our 500 MADNESS High-Flow Intake

http://500madness.com/500madness/shop/index.php?route=product/product&path=297&product_id=1360

With the adjusted numbers (crank HP) that puts the max output at 175.84 HP with the intake alone!!!!!

http://i.imgur.com/0Z6m6DQ.jpg

MADNESSLuckyJay
03-19-2013, 02:20 PM
Baseline VS 500 MADNESS ECU on setting 6

Adjusted numbers: Stock (160hp) VS 500 MADNESS ECU (180hp)

http://i.imgur.com/Gq4Lshd.jpg

MADNESSLuckyJay
03-19-2013, 02:21 PM
Baseline (160hp) VS MM ECU on Setting 1 (184.8hp)

http://i.imgur.com/bLNEAN9.jpg

MADNESSLuckyJay
03-19-2013, 02:21 PM
Baseline (160hp) VS MM ECU on Setting 1 with our 500 MADNESS High-Flow Intake (189.28hp)

http://i.imgur.com/UD7HyqK.jpg

MADNESSLuckyJay
03-19-2013, 02:22 PM
MM ECU on Setting 1 (179.2) VS MM ECU on Setting 1 with 500 MADNESS High-Flow Intake (189.28)

http://i.imgur.com/zdsotOy.jpg

MADNESSLuckyJay
03-19-2013, 02:23 PM
500 MADNESS ECU on Setting 6 VS MM ECU on Setting 2

http://i.imgur.com/CkQijur.jpg

Jjm4life
03-19-2013, 02:33 PM
How about posting the raw numbers. Wheel hp means a lot more than some calculated/adjusted numbers

MADNESSLuckyJay
03-19-2013, 02:38 PM
How about posting the raw numbers. Wheel hp means a lot more than some calculated/adjusted numbers

The raw numbers are the ones called out on each graph, just remember when you are looking at Horsepower to line it up with the Left-side numbers, the ones on the Right-side are for Torque

Jjm4life
03-19-2013, 02:46 PM
The raw numbers are the ones called out on each graph, just remember when you are looking at Horsepower to line it up with the Left-side numbers, the ones on the Right-side are for Torque

Thanks. Though to see on an iPad. Every time i try to enlarge the graph it disappears.

whatebahw
03-19-2013, 03:39 PM
Thanks. Though to see on an iPad. Every time i try to enlarge the graph it disappears.

Makes me want to rush out and buy an iPad.

Jjm4life
03-19-2013, 04:36 PM
Makes me want to rush out and buy an iPad.

i actually like it a lot. does 95% of what i need it to do. and ultimately i was able to enlarge the graphs.

Crossfirecat
03-20-2013, 10:40 AM
Looks good but, Did you not dyno the car in stock trim, then intake only, piggy back only...etc? Making a guesstimate about assumed drivetrain losses and then posting up dyno graphs based on said assumption really doesnt give us an accurate number. Why not dyno to get the true baseline WHP output. Then continue to dyno the same car after each mod, piggyback setting and so on? It will give a much more accurate and clear answer to all of this.
This is what everyone has been asking for since mods started hitting the market for these cars.

Daytona 500
03-20-2013, 12:33 PM
Looks good but, Did you not dyno the car in stock trim, then intake only, piggy back only...etc? Making a guesstimate about assumed drivetrain losses and then posting up dyno graphs based on said assumption really doesnt give us an accurate number. Why not dyno to get the true baseline WHP output. Then continue to dyno the same car after each mod, piggyback setting and so on? It will give a much more accurate and clear answer to all of this.
This is what everyone has been asking for since mods started hitting the market for these cars.

It appears that is what they did, compare base line -v- MM box, Madness box, Madness CAI, CAI with MM box, etc... WHP is the actual graph numbers, crank hp = printed caption with an estimated 12% loss through the drive line. Unless I am missing something...

Crossfirecat
03-21-2013, 10:40 AM
It appears that is what they did, compare base line -v- MM box, Madness box, Madness CAI, CAI with MM box, etc... WHP is the actual graph numbers, crank hp = printed caption with an estimated 12% loss through the drive line. Unless I am missing something...

Actually, I think I missed something! As in the first graph! Not too mention I guess I was too tired to understand the "12%" estimate. I was too focused on baseline WHP(the graph I somehow overlooked).

My apologies...Carry on.

MADNESSLuckyJay
03-21-2013, 01:04 PM
Actually, I think I missed something! As in the first graph! Not too mention I guess I was too tired to understand the "12%" estimate. I was too focused on baseline WHP(the graph I somehow overlooked).

My apologies...Carry on.

No problem!

Daytona 500
03-21-2013, 01:04 PM
Actually, I think I missed something! As in the first graph! Not too mention I guess I was too tired to understand the "12%" estimate. I was too focused on baseline WHP(the graph I somehow overlooked).

My apologies...Carry on.

No worries, we all want the same thing, go fast goodies.

whatebahw
03-21-2013, 02:06 PM
This is almost exactly what I need to make up my mind and pull the trigger on one of these devices. I know I sound like a broken record...but is there no way to see the corresponding AFRs with these combinations? ( I do remember seeing a stock vs MADNESS ECU AFR dyno supposedly on the setting 6 as seen here but that doesn't help me compare to AFRs caused by the MM version and doesn't help me decide how AFR is affected by the intake and combining the ECU with the intake) Is it really that hard to get AFRs from a dyno or do we just not get to see the results because they aren't pretty?

...or is it that people who buy piggybacks don't care about AFR? If they don't then I must not be a piggyback guy because I do care.

MADNESSLuckyJay
03-21-2013, 02:30 PM
This is almost exactly what I need to make up my mind and pull the trigger on one of these devices. I know I sound like a broken record...but is there no way to see the corresponding AFRs with these combinations? ( I do remember seeing a stock vs MADNESS ECU AFR dyno supposedly on the setting 6 as seen here but that doesn't help me compare to AFRs caused by the MM version and doesn't help me decide how AFR is affected by the intake and combining the ECU with the intake) Is it really that hard to get AFRs from a dyno or do we just not get to see the results because they aren't pretty?

...or is it that people who buy piggybacks don't care about AFR? If they don't then I must not be a piggyback guy because I do care.

Ask and ye shall receive! Had some of these posted in another thread, here is the AFR graph that shows the MM ECU on setting 2 and our 500 MADNESS box on 6

http://i.imgur.com/OfLg24V.jpg

shagghie
03-21-2013, 02:35 PM
Ask and ye shall receive! Had some of these posted in another thread, here is the AFR graph that shows the MM ECU on setting 2 and our 500 MADNESS box on 6

http://i.imgur.com/OfLg24V.jpg

Do you have the data logs for these pulls by chance? Would love to see the actual min and max AFR's and what RPM's they occur at. This graph (like most dyno graphs) is too 'smooth' and averaged out to know if the boxes hit lean/rich peak/outlier conditions. If you can paste the data log (it will be large), we can sift through it.

MADNESSLuckyJay
03-21-2013, 06:23 PM
Do you have the data logs for these pulls by chance? Would love to see the actual min and max AFR's and what RPM's they occur at. This graph (like most dyno graphs) is too 'smooth' and averaged out to know if the boxes hit lean/rich peak/outlier conditions. If you can paste the data log (it will be large), we can sift through it.

I'll do some digging and see if I can find it, not sure though

stealthy1ss
03-21-2013, 06:38 PM
Please tell me that you are not using a sniffer to measure AFR's! The only way to get an accurate reading is to tap into the wideband which should be located before the cat in the downpipe.

Abarth Five O
04-02-2013, 12:35 PM
Jay,
Any update on when the MM ecu 2nd revised tune will be available on line?

GoFiatGo!
04-02-2013, 04:21 PM
500 MADNESS ECU on Setting 6 VS MM ECU on Setting 2

http://i.imgur.com/CkQijur.jpg


Something isn't right here... Are you still testing on a Dynapack like always? The same dyno? Same Car? What weather conditions changed?
The reason I'm bringing this up is because the numbers you just posted are "12% corrected to crank numbers" but way back when you tested the MM module on the #2 setting you pulled "The ABARTH with the Magneti Marelli Module hit 196.5 Horsepower. No other mods were on this car besides the module."
So from the dyno you just posted you made 165-170HP at the crank but from your old dynos you made 197 at the hub... Please feel free to correct me on my information if I am wrong.
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f392/btilim/500%20MADNESS%20at%20HB%202012/8d9747aa.jpg



Edit to add, Jay has PMed saying he would find out more information about the Dyno information I posted. The Dyno I posted which most are familiar with come from Madness themselves
http://500madness.com/500madness/forums/showthread.php?1190-ABARTH-Engine-Module-Comparison-Dyno#.UVt78leReQl
Here was Boris's word on it.
Guys I just seen this thread for the first time and read through the entire 9 pages of it.
Here is my personal reply in brief:

1. We did our Dyno Runs on the same day on a DynoPack Dyno using stock 91 California Fuel. No additives of any kind.

2. It is important, very, very important that when you use a Dyno on a Multi Air Engine that you have Airflow. A Big Dyno Fan going to the car. Some Dyno Shops use little fans. While that is OK for a Honda, Toyota and many others it is not for the Multi Air Engine. If the engine senses that it is not getting enough airflow it will start tuning itself down to maximize fuel economy/performance. Remember, now days getting the fuel mileage rating is more important for a manufacturer then a peak horsepower rating. This is something we learned from our partners at Pogea Racing. If you are using a dyno make sure you have proper cooling.

3. We did not alter the dyno in ANY way. I wouldn't even know how and do not run our business that way. We like both products and both suppliers and are happy with both of their products.

4. Someone made a comment that we "own" these forums. That's really not fair. Talk to the owner of this forum and ask him whether or not we are constantly requesting edits. You will find your answer. The only time I personally asked him to look in to a matter for me was when a new member logged in to this forum with multiple IDs and started to post inaccurate data and slander our business in order to boost his own. We do not control information that is posted in any way. If an issue is brought up to our attention and it is something that I or a team member did not do right, then it is our wake up call and we learn from that and try to do better.

5. Dyno runs will be different EVERY time because the location, weather, fuel, car, the person running the dyno, the amount of air going in to the dyno, dyno set up, maintenance and dyno manufacturers are all different. We do not use dynos to sell a product and have ALWAYS stated a disclaimed when we posted dyno numbers.

6. Lastly... All the boxes out there have programing that can be changed. In the TMC Box there is a dial in the MM Box there are percentages. While one setting can give you nice gains another setting can give you numbers and running results that may not be as good. We set the boxes we ship on numbers that we feel give someone the best combination of performance gains and safety. We can always custom tune each box to the customers preference. Example: We have some that race their cars and have the boxes set at much higher settings, but this is not something that we recommend for daily use.

Please remember we own and drive these cars ourselves and have invested our lifetime savings in to our MADNESS Business. Every dollar in profit generated gets reinvested right back in to new products. That is why we are continuously introducing new items.

We build custom cars, install parts in house, fabricate in house, tune, assist with builds across the entire country, work with race teams all over and stock over 1,000 different products for the 500. We have a great team of dedicated guys and gals that love what they do and always do our best to assist a fellow owner.

We would not try to throw all that away just to sell a couple more ECU Boxes.

Respectfully,
Boris T.
Principal


Just looks like some strange stuff to me which is why I am wondering about the Dyno conditions. The mods you have now aren't coming close to your old post and that's even allowing for dyno error. With the MM box/Intake/Exhaust you hit 202.1HP according to this.
What changes did you make to your intake to go from 3-5HP to 16HP? (Not sure how much the exhaust contributed to original pulls)
[IMG]http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f392/btilim/500%20MADNESS%20at%20HB%202012/bcf127b9.jpg[IMG]

shagghie
04-02-2013, 06:27 PM
I'll do some digging and see if I can find it, not sure though


Any luck?

GoFiatGo!
04-04-2013, 09:24 PM
So from the dyno you just posted you made 165-170HP at the crank but from your old dynos you made 197 at the hub... Please feel free to correct me on my information if I am wrong.


Bump. Still wondering how you lost all that power with better mods.

MADNESSLuckyJay
04-05-2013, 12:11 PM
Hey guys, sorry! I've been editing video the last couple days of when we revealed a customer's car! the dyno graph I posted is on a Dynapack, the numbers on the graph are at the hubs, not the crank. The power at the crank can be calculated from the numbers at the hub, the loss can be up to 20% or more!

GoFiatGo!
04-05-2013, 01:00 PM
Hey guys, sorry! I've been editing video the last couple days of when we revealed a customer's car! the dyno graph I posted is on a Dynapack, the numbers on the graph are at the hubs, not the crank. The power at the crank can be calculated from the numbers at the hub, the loss can be up to 20% or more!

So both graphs are at the hub. So could you explain how with the same box and a better intake your still losing over 30hp?

redred
04-05-2013, 01:09 PM
the dyno graph I posted is on a Dynapack

If that is the case, can we just see the actual dynapack graphs?

GoFiatGo!
04-08-2013, 05:32 PM
Bump. Surely you have some idea as to why you lost 30HP with better/more mods?

MADNESSLuckyJay
04-08-2013, 05:56 PM
Hey guys, I think that the older graph that was re-posted shows numbers that are already adjusted to the crank, and the graphs that started the thread are at the hub, with corrections in the (). The older dyno run was done before I worked here so it's taken a little time to track down all the info, still on it though...

GoFiatGo!
04-08-2013, 06:43 PM
Hey guys, I think that the older graph that was re-posted shows numbers that are already adjusted to the crank, and the graphs that started the thread are at the hub, with corrections in the ().

Straight from y'all.
http://500madness.com/500madness/forums/showthread.php?1190-ABARTH-Engine-Module-Comparison-Dyno#.UWNHoleReQk
"This horsepower is measured at the wheels. We used a dynapack dyno to get the results"

MADNESSJoseph
04-08-2013, 07:56 PM
Hey everyone I just wanted to get back to you all and address the question GoFiatGo! posted above. The first graph that we posted way back when was corrected to reflect Horsepower and Torque at the crank and not at the wheels. Now I know that many of you car guys are probably asking yourselves ‘Why would they give the advertised HP and Torque numbers at the crank rather than the Hub/Wheels???’ as that is the standard practice for most tuning shops. The reason that we corrected the numbers to crank output was because we did not want there to be a misunderstanding for the casual customer who might have stumbled upon a thread while searching for more info on one of the ECU Modules. Seeing as how the car is rated at 160HP the casual observer might think that number is based at the wheels when we all know it is rated at the crank.

Our error in posting these dyno’s is that we were not consistent in keeping the output under the same measurement (i.e. crank vs. Hub Horsepower.) The reason for the large disparity in the two dyno’s posted is because you are looking at a crank numbers (first dyno) vs. Hub numbers (Subsequent dynos.) Also, the original Dyno was done when the boxes and the cars were first released before the ECU updates had been issued by FIAT. Once the ECU update was announced Magneti Marelli had to adjust their tune (firmware 2 update) that changed the peak HP output so that customers could no overboost their motors and go into limp mode. Those combined changes amount to the differences in the old and new dyno’s. Not only that but we used different vehicles and different dyno’s (Models of the Dynapack , Operators & Locations) between the two separate dyno’s. Not to mention other smaller variables that can affect the overall outcome.

To everyone looking over these dyno’s please note that the reasons that we post these are not to brag or bench race. We simply use the dyno to help show us what is working and how we can maximize those gains for our customers. The peak numbers don’t matter so much as the overall torque and HP curve and how it is changing to our real world driving conditions. We are always here via phone or email to discuss any changes or prospective purchases you might be thinking of! We’ve sold hundreds of these boxes and, for the money there is not better HP to dollar ratio. There have been customers that needed a little extra help and all the manufacturers have been willing to step up and get those few issues resolved in a timely manner. Thank you all again for the support.

If any of you happen to have any other questions or are in need of some assistance I will always do my best in finding the answers for you. I hope you found this information useful and I apologize for any previous confusion.

Joseph

Noblesse Oblige
04-09-2013, 08:22 PM
I am hopelessly confused. We are told in post #1 that these dyno runs are adjusted for estimated losses: "We adjusted the numbers from the Dyno to compensate for loss, we calculated that 12% was the difference from the hub to the crank, so that is the number we used for adjusting, for the most part that puts the Baseline runs at (or close to) 160HP." OK so the previous runs were also corrected to estimated crank hp. So it should be apples to apples. Then the lower numbers for this set of mods is still a mystery.

GoFiatGo!
04-09-2013, 08:37 PM
I am hopelessly confused. We are told in post #1 that these dyno runs are adjusted for estimated losses: "We adjusted the numbers from the Dyno to compensate for loss, we calculated that 12% was the difference from the hub to the crank, so that is the number we used for adjusting, for the most part that puts the Baseline runs at (or close to) 160HP." OK so the previous runs were also corrected to estimated crank hp. So it should be apples to apples. Then the lower numbers for this set of mods is still a mystery.

I already pointed that out... multiple times.
Also have asked multiple times what conditions have changed between dynos... Just don't expect an answer as you probably won't get one or expect your post to get deleted for harassment or something like that.

In all seriousness though they stated in their first post that stock they made 160HP crank, now with their new intake they said they made 175.84 crank, their words not mine. Now if you view the first graph the difference between blue lines is PEAK 8HP around the 5250 rpm mark.
Read the Graph representing the MM ECU on setting #2. The line peaks at 168, now add in their calculated 12% which is 20.16 you hit 188.16 which is still over 10HP (Way more than dyno error) away. Even the torque numbers are way off.

GoFiatGo!
04-09-2013, 11:19 PM
Another case of confusing the customer. Either the original dyno is fudged or the intake one isn't accurate. Sorry I don't buy 15 hp gains on a intake that runs over the biggest source of heat, the turbo and manifold. The only way to clear this up is to take a video of the dyno run and post it. Everyone knows photoshop these days.

I'm not saying anything like that. I'm just trying to figure out what changes have been made between the runs for the dyno's to differ so much. Could it gain 15hp? Sure but from the graphs posted, I'm not seeing it which is why I am asking.

Fiat500USA
04-10-2013, 01:47 AM
I already pointed that out... multiple times.
Also have asked multiple times what conditions have changed between dynos... Just don't expect an answer as you probably won't get one or expect your post to get deleted for harassment or something like that.


From what I've read above there were different: dynos, operators, locations, cars and the software update among all the other variables. I'm not really surprised by the results. I think it is an example of why you can't really compare dyno figures between different cars and locations.

By the way, I told you why your post was deleted in private and you said you were fine with it, but seeing you brought it up: It was deleted because you freely admitted that you were trolling in your other posts and now I see these posts are sounding the same as the others. Sorry, trolling just isn't acceptable here. I give people the benefit of the doubt, but if you actually tell me you're trolling, naturally I'm going to take action.

Bottom line is trolling = bad. Don't do it. gr_grin

redred
04-10-2013, 02:30 AM
In my opinion, the only conclusive way to resolve this is to do multiple dyno tests. 1st just bone stock. Then with the intake and then with the ECU piggyback and intake.

That is the only way to show, from a baseline, what sort of benefits you are gaining with each mod.

Noblesse Oblige
04-10-2013, 09:10 AM
In my opinion, the only conclusive way to resolve this is to do multiple dyno tests. 1st just bone stock. Then with the intake and then with the ECU piggyback and intake.

That is the only way to show, from a baseline, what sort of benefits you are gaining with each mod.

I agree with this, and on the same dyno on the same day under the same conditions. And it is best to show raw numbers uncorrected.

I do think that some trust is needed. I am OK with just the graphs, the assurance from MADNESS that the dynos and conditions were identical, and that steps were taken to prevent heat soaking.

BigT
04-22-2013, 11:30 AM
Hmm so looks like MM piggyback + power pedal + high flow intake + better flowing rear exhaust section are in my future once I correct the overly bouncy suspension :)

GoFiatGo!
04-28-2013, 02:50 PM
Huh... So If I don't like what some one has to say I can just have it deleted?

onederer
08-08-2013, 04:04 PM
One thing that I noted was that the Old MM Graph from the Dynapack was for an MM mox set to 77% and the lastest was an MM box set to 58%.
I don't know enough to say that that would makeup the power gap. But it is something else to keep in mind. Along with different temps, dynos, tire pressures...blah ,blah.

Either way, I'd like to see how this all pans out as it's my hard earned money that will be going to someone and GoFiatGo brings up points that everyone should be interested in.

majora96
09-18-2018, 04:30 PM
Why does the intake seem to give less of a hp increase when it's used with the MM ecu as opposed to by itself? Stock with the intake made 175, but looked to only net about 10hp when used together with the MM.

MADNESS eMack
09-19-2018, 01:35 PM
Why does the intake seem to give less of a hp increase when it's used with the MM ecu as opposed to by itself? Stock with the intake made 175, but looked to only net about 10hp when used together with the MM.

Hi majora96,

There could be any number of contributing factors - many of which would be hypothesis at this point 5 years down the line. I'd rather walk you through our options directly to determine which intake (and/or other parts) would be the best fit for your application and objectives. Or if you'd like to delve further into reasons for discrepancy, that's cool too. Either way, reach out.

emacgraham@madnessautoworks.com or phone @ (512) 982-9393 #202

texanbrit
09-19-2018, 04:17 PM
Why does the intake seem to give less of a hp increase when it's used with the MM ecu as opposed to by itself? Stock with the intake made 175, but looked to only net about 10hp when used together with the MM.

Power mods are usually complementary rather than strictly additive, i.e. if the intake gives you 10hp on its own and the MM gives you 10hp that almost never gives you 20hp when you add them together. There are a number of factors, firstly the MM ECU doesn't know what intake you are running or how well it works. Then there may be other restrictions that are now limiting the total power the engine can generate, e.g. exhaust, turbo inlet, intercoolers etc.

This is also why flash tunes were such an improvement over piggybacks like the MM. A flash tune can adapt better to your mods and in addition can be tuned to specifically leverage your mods.

majora96
09-19-2018, 08:46 PM
Thanks for the reply! I was mostly just curious about why it made a difference. I'm planning on purchasing the high flow intake in just a couple months. I also have the Maxpower ECM installed and was wondering if I would see similar results compared to the MM.

500MADNESS.com
09-21-2018, 06:08 PM
Thanks for the reply! I was mostly just curious about why it made a difference. I'm planning on purchasing the high flow intake in just a couple months. I also have the Maxpower ECM installed and was wondering if I would see similar results compared to the MM.

It's impossible to say with any sort of certainty. Which is part of why we stay away from talking about specific numbers. There are simply to many varibles at play in that equation including but not limited to vehicle condition, location, weather, other mods, and fuel.