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Thad
01-08-2013, 10:38 AM
I visited my local dealer yesterday and saw a 500 with it's engine out and in pieces. Bent connecting rods, valves, etc. Not pretty. The owner had installed a cold air intake and drove through a deep puddle sucking water into the engine. I do not know what type/brand of system it was. I do know it was the type that draws are from down low behind the left headlight area.
So, just a warning for you to think about stuff.

WegoFaster@Ambient Thermal Management
01-08-2013, 11:14 AM
I visited my local dealer yesterday and saw a 500 with it's engine out and in pieces. Bent connecting rods, valves, etc. Not pretty. The owner had installed a cold air intake and drove through a deep puddle sucking water into the engine. I do not know what type/brand of system it was. I do know it was the type that draws are from down low behind the left headlight area.
So, just a warning for you to think about stuff.

You live in South Jersey?

trevc
01-08-2013, 11:28 AM
That's gonna be expensive! Never did seem like a good place for an air intake.


I visited my local dealer yesterday and saw a 500 with it's engine out and in pieces. Bent connecting rods, valves, etc. Not pretty. The owner had installed a cold air intake and drove through a deep puddle sucking water into the engine. I do not know what type/brand of system it was. I do know it was the type that draws are from down low behind the left headlight area.
So, just a warning for you to think about stuff.

500ways
01-08-2013, 11:32 AM
Seems to me like poor judgement on the part of the driver.

Thad
01-08-2013, 12:30 PM
No, but it was the car at Maple Shade!

TurboBullett@Ambient Thermal Management
01-08-2013, 01:09 PM
No, but it was the car at Maple Shade!

Yeah we saw that car/engine when we were picking parts.

TurboBullett@Ambient Thermal Management
01-08-2013, 01:12 PM
Seems to me like poor judgement on the part of the driver.

Sadly, the kit manufacturer using a bypass filter would have prevented that.

bryanintowson
01-08-2013, 04:25 PM
The MOPAR unit has a bypass that should prevent that sort of thing.

sjmst
01-08-2013, 04:32 PM
The MOPAR unit has a bypass that should prevent that sort of thing.

Right. That's what I put in my Sport. And by the way, if I had 300 to spend and my choice was a sprintbooster vs CAI, the sprint booster wins. No contest.

ewflyer
01-08-2013, 07:52 PM
Don't drive through really big water puddles...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUx5wTV4XVk

Abarth Phreak
01-08-2013, 11:26 PM
I visited my local dealer yesterday and saw a 500 with it's engine out and in pieces. Bent connecting rods, valves, etc. Not pretty. The owner had installed a cold air intake and drove through a deep puddle sucking water into the engine. I do not know what type/brand of system it was. I do know it was the type that draws are from down low behind the left headlight area.
So, just a warning for you to think about stuff.

I had the same thing happen about 5 years ago on my 2005 SRT-4 ACR....Mopar intake. It had only 7,500 miles when it happened, I then built the crap outta that car and beefed it up to take over 500hp easy. It was a combination of hard rain, intake design and clogged street drain that got me literally 150 feet from my house. Picture this:

Mopar intake filter located in fender in front of left tire, designed to be about 8" off the ground barely above the car line. Kit comes with a "shield" that is placed under the filter mounted to the fender assembly to protect filter from debris and splash. I make a right turn at a corner as usual and kaplunk!!!! Dead in the street as I coast out of the water.

Luckily I was able to push the car to my house a few feet away. It was raining pretty hard.

The findings: The street corner has a stormwater grate drain exactly at that spot. It was blocked and not draining well, causing the water to rise. That filter shield actually acted as a scoop in the open gaps bringing the water in as I turned right, which let the car dip into the left corner bringing the car down maybe about 2-3 inches as cars do in the opposite corner of the turn....Hydrolocked!!!!! Bent a rod and scored the block a bit and tweaked a valve. Insurance covered it as it was a road hazard....but they originally did not want to because the intake was not stock. Since it was a Mopar part they did cover it....according to the adjuster. 30 days in the shop...due to staffing issues....and insurance hold-ups. Total repair was around 8,500...500 outa pocket. Hada new engine....so that was good...and I kept the old engine...had it machined....bought all new internals (Pistons, bearings, rods, valves, rockers, cams shafts, etc) and made a monster that I swapped out again. Miss that car. My Abarth is in memory of it. But staying away from the Mopar unit for that very reason....Its a great intake....not a good swimmer!

Tweak
01-08-2013, 11:50 PM
I wondered how long before the Mopar or Injen with the low mounted filter would result in a problem, so many were certain it would never happen but it always looked like a bad idea and I guess now we finally have some proof it is an issue under some circumstances. Thanks for the info.

Thad
01-20-2013, 03:30 PM
Well, it was an Injen CAI system. It blew holes in both sides of the block because connecting rod #2 got bent. Here is the proof in the picture:4797

White Abarth
01-21-2013, 11:07 AM
I had the same thing happen about 5 years ago on my 2005 SRT-4 ACR....Mopar intake.
...
But staying away from the Mopar unit for that very reason....Its a great intake....not a good swimmer!
Did your SRT-4's version of the intake include the protective water bypass that Mopar's 500 intake has? It's specifically designed to draw air from a much higher location in just such an event.

ruben
01-29-2013, 06:27 PM
CAI's are the biggest joke and high risk for nothing. the air temp isnt enough to make a difference in horse power. 95% of the horse power increase is from the filter anyway. a short ram would suffice if theres space up top for it. worst case you could always modify the stock airbox and change the filter to something that breathes better. on turbo cars its even more pointless as the "cold air" is getting sucked into a hot turbo inlet anyway.

WegoFaster@Ambient Thermal Management
01-29-2013, 07:17 PM
CAI's are the biggest joke and high risk for nothing. the air temp isnt enough to make a difference in horse power. 95% of the horse power increase is from the filter anyway. a short ram would suffice if theres space up top for it. worst case you could always modify the stock airbox and change the filter to something that breathes better. on turbo cars its even more pointless as the "cold air" is getting sucked into a hot turbo inlet anyway.

We have already proven this misconception wrong. Look in our threads for more info.

Abarth Phreak
01-30-2013, 01:49 AM
CAI's are the biggest joke and high risk for nothing. the air temp isnt enough to make a difference in horse power. 95% of the horse power increase is from the filter anyway. a short ram would suffice if theres space up top for it...

Oh please explain based on your knowledge and experience...not just something your buddy in a crappy car told you...I love a good debate!

(Be ready to be schooled on the purpose of an intercooler and all the air sensors on cars too newb. Or why cars produce less power after heat soak....or hot days.....or high altitudes....oh nevermind....this wont get far.)

WegoFaster@Ambient Thermal Management
01-30-2013, 09:49 AM
Oh please explain based on your knowledge and experience...not just something your buddy in a crappy car told you...I love a good debate!

(Be ready to be schooled on the purpose of an intercooler and all the air sensors on cars too newb. Or why cars produce less power after heat soak....or hot days.....or high altitudes....oh nevermind....this wont get far.)

http://www.memecreator.org/static/images/memes/46903.jpg

I can somewhat understand your arguement on an existing efficienct OEM intake and intercooler system, but in the case of the Abarth this isn't so.


Prior to laying out an intake design for the Fiat 500 Abarth, we data logged probable filter location temperatures under many circumstances. We searched for the coolest location which remained cool under the most driving variables.

The filter locations tested are:
• OEM (stock intake)
• Several locations under the hood (in the engine bay)
• The area behind the firewall and under the cowl

The driving variables tested are:
• Cruising @ 40mph
• Several Wide Open Throttles at set distances in specific gears
• Cruising @ 55mph
• Sit idle for 5 minutes

Additional temperatures taken are:
• Ambient (outside) air temperature
• Air temperature in the engine bay (taken on the passenger’s side of the engine)
• Turbo inlet air temperature (taken at the boost solenoid return port)
• Intake manifold air temperatures.
• Forward Looking InfraRed (FLIR) pictures of the engine bay and turbo compressor housing

Below are the results of the test. This chart and line graph displays the difference (Delta Δ Temperature) between the turbo inlet air temperature and the outside ambient air temperature. The lower numbers show that there is little rise in air temperature from the outside ambient air. Therefore the filter location is better isolated and the intake system better insulates the from under hood heat. The Cowl location proves to be the optimal filter location, followed by the OEM intake, and lastly is the under hood.
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l247/agennello/AmbientvsturboInletTest_zpsf8eca5e5.png

The object of the next chart and graph is to show how cooler air at the turbo inlet will result with cooler air in the intake manifold. All of these tests were conducted on the very cold night with ambient temps ranging between 40°F-32°F. In order to place each test on a level playing field, the tests results were compensated for the difference in ambient air temps recorded for each test. The graph below illustrates the turbo inlet air temperatures and the intake manifold air temperatures. Again the filter placement in the cowl location proves to be optimal, with OEM and under hood following.
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l247/agennello/IntakevsAITtemps_zps7f77dc09.png

We took FLIR pictures of the turbo compressor housings after the car idled for 5 minutes. The picture on the far left is with the filter placed in the cowl area. The middle picture is the filter placed in the engine bay. The picture on the far right is the stock intake system. Once again, positioning the filter in the cowl area proved to be the optimal choice.
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l247/agennello/TifosiCompressorHousingAfter5minIdle.jpg http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l247/agennello/OtherGuysComperssorHousingAfter5minIdle.jpg http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l247/agennello/OEMCompressorHousingAfter5minIdle.jpg

As a result of this testing, we decided that the cowl location is superior to all other filter locations. Now that we have the filter location, we need a conduit to flow the air. From past experience, we knew that 5 ply silicone is superior to most other materials for its minimal thermal conductivity while remaining pliable. This means that it insulates from hot under hood temps while having some play for installation differences between cars and minimizes and rattles and other noises.
The Holey Cowl intake (HCI) features a machined (like factory clip in) EVAP fitting, boost solenoid return fitting, and PCV fitting with extension hose.
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l247/agennello/IMG_2964.jpg

We have the cool filter location and an optimal insulating duct, now we need to optimize airflow. There are many ways to convey air into a tube, but there is only one optimal way. The chart below illustrates several methods and the flow coefficient for each (the high numbers are optimal). As you can see the first method proves to the best. This method is often referred to as a “bellmouth”. Air attaches itself to the smooth curved walls and maintains laminar air flow. There is little entropy (inefficient turbulence) which yields the highest flow with the least work required. This means HORSEPOWER!!!!
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l247/agennello/coefficientgraphic_zps5d5943f6.gif

For Ambient Thermal Management, this was a no brainer. We developed a custom billet aluminum bellmouth for the filter to silicone duct interaction.
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l247/agennello/Polishedbellmouth_zps634381dd.png http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l247/agennello/Polishedbellmouth2_zps4024d407.png

To complement the bellmouth, we had a custom filter manufactured to our specifications. The filter location is a tight area with high flow requirements. This filter features maximum surface area and a laminar flow cone ensuring unrestricted performance.
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l247/agennello/filter_zpsd8b18170.jpg
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l247/agennello/Filter2_zps3d88ed6b.jpg

A well designed Cold Air Intake (CAI) does make horsepower on a turbo car. We dynoed and datalogged the Abarth with back to back to back to back to back runs with each intake with approximately 1 minute between runs. We datalogged the intake air temps, engine coolant temps, ignition timing, RPM, boost. The hood was shut during the runs for both intakes, and fans were directed at the front grill of the car as well as the shut hood. The goal of this test is to replicate what you can expect from the intakes' performance on the street/track. You don't drive with your hood open so why dyno that way. If you are road racing or auto-x the car, you would have repeated acceleration/deceleration and effectively heat soak the engine bay.

What you can see in the datalog trends below are that the:
1. The Holey Cowl Intake has quicker and more Intake Air Temp (AIT) recovery between dyno runs and maintains a lower AIT overall.
2. HCI flows better than the stock intake. As a result the turbo spools much quicker and feeds a beefy torque curve.
3. As AIT really climbs into the higher temperatures, ignition timing falls off thereby reducing WHP.
4. AIT affects Engine Coolant Temps (ECT). Higher AITs will yield higher ECT. High temps reduce intake air density/WHP and increases susceptibility to detonation.
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l247/agennello/TifosivsOEMIntakeDatalogTrends.png

In the dyno plots below, we are comparing the best results in the series of dynos for both intakes. The Holey Cowl intake yielded an average increase of 17WHP and 17WTQ over the stock intake. WHP and WTQ peak difference is 13WHP and 29WTQ. These are real gains over the stock unit by the HCI's ability to make power and maintain in heat soak scenarios! Even we were surprised.
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l247/agennello/StockvsTifosiIntake.jpg

deathshead
01-30-2013, 10:29 AM
The Mopar Accessories are garbage and extremely overpriced to being with.

When I bought my SRT-4 acr It had a dealer installed Mopar CAI, the same one as the guy with the blown motor had. What a PITA to get to that thing just to check out the filter status on it.

One of the first things I did was get rid of it and get an injen short ram, When I finally ripped that thing out of the fender I found a musty, moldy ROTTEN filter with a big hole in it.

Never run an intake that's lower than the top of the motor,
Never run an intake where you are unable to easily check its operational status.

ruben
01-30-2013, 01:42 PM
http://www.memecreator.org/static/images/memes/46903.jpg

I can somewhat understand your arguement on an existing efficienct OEM intake and intercooler system, but in the case of the Abarth this isn't so.


Prior to laying out an intake design for the Fiat 500 Abarth, we data logged probable filter location temperatures under many circumstances. We searched for the coolest location which remained cool under the most driving variables.

The filter locations tested are:
• OEM (stock intake)
• Several locations under the hood (in the engine bay)
• The area behind the firewall and under the cowl

The driving variables tested are:
• Cruising @ 40mph
• Several Wide Open Throttles at set distances in specific gears
• Cruising @ 55mph
• Sit idle for 5 minutes

Additional temperatures taken are:
• Ambient (outside) air temperature
• Air temperature in the engine bay (taken on the passenger’s side of the engine)
• Turbo inlet air temperature (taken at the boost solenoid return port)
• Intake manifold air temperatures.
• Forward Looking InfraRed (FLIR) pictures of the engine bay and turbo compressor housing

Below are the results of the test. This chart and line graph displays the difference (Delta Δ Temperature) between the turbo inlet air temperature and the outside ambient air temperature. The lower numbers show that there is little rise in air temperature from the outside ambient air. Therefore the filter location is better isolated and the intake system better insulates the from under hood heat. The Cowl location proves to be the optimal filter location, followed by the OEM intake, and lastly is the under hood.
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l247/agennello/AmbientvsturboInletTest_zpsf8eca5e5.png

The object of the next chart and graph is to show how cooler air at the turbo inlet will result with cooler air in the intake manifold. All of these tests were conducted on the very cold night with ambient temps ranging between 40°F-32°F. In order to place each test on a level playing field, the tests results were compensated for the difference in ambient air temps recorded for each test. The graph below illustrates the turbo inlet air temperatures and the intake manifold air temperatures. Again the filter placement in the cowl location proves to be optimal, with OEM and under hood following.
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l247/agennello/IntakevsAITtemps_zps7f77dc09.png

We took FLIR pictures of the turbo compressor housings after the car idled for 5 minutes. The picture on the far left is with the filter placed in the cowl area. The middle picture is the filter placed in the engine bay. The picture on the far right is the stock intake system. Once again, positioning the filter in the cowl area proved to be the optimal choice.
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l247/agennello/TifosiCompressorHousingAfter5minIdle.jpg http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l247/agennello/OtherGuysComperssorHousingAfter5minIdle.jpg http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l247/agennello/OEMCompressorHousingAfter5minIdle.jpg

As a result of this testing, we decided that the cowl location is superior to all other filter locations. Now that we have the filter location, we need a conduit to flow the air. From past experience, we knew that 5 ply silicone is superior to most other materials for its minimal thermal conductivity while remaining pliable. This means that it insulates from hot under hood temps while having some play for installation differences between cars and minimizes and rattles and other noises.
The Holey Cowl intake (HCI) features a machined (like factory clip in) EVAP fitting, boost solenoid return fitting, and PCV fitting with extension hose.
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l247/agennello/IMG_2964.jpg

We have the cool filter location and an optimal insulating duct, now we need to optimize airflow. There are many ways to convey air into a tube, but there is only one optimal way. The chart below illustrates several methods and the flow coefficient for each (the high numbers are optimal). As you can see the first method proves to the best. This method is often referred to as a “bellmouth”. Air attaches itself to the smooth curved walls and maintains laminar air flow. There is little entropy (inefficient turbulence) which yields the highest flow with the least work required. This means HORSEPOWER!!!!
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l247/agennello/coefficientgraphic_zps5d5943f6.gif

For Ambient Thermal Management, this was a no brainer. We developed a custom billet aluminum bellmouth for the filter to silicone duct interaction.
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l247/agennello/Polishedbellmouth_zps634381dd.png http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l247/agennello/Polishedbellmouth2_zps4024d407.png

To complement the bellmouth, we had a custom filter manufactured to our specifications. The filter location is a tight area with high flow requirements. This filter features maximum surface area and a laminar flow cone ensuring unrestricted performance.
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l247/agennello/filter_zpsd8b18170.jpg
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l247/agennello/Filter2_zps3d88ed6b.jpg

A well designed Cold Air Intake (CAI) does make horsepower on a turbo car. We dynoed and datalogged the Abarth with back to back to back to back to back runs with each intake with approximately 1 minute between runs. We datalogged the intake air temps, engine coolant temps, ignition timing, RPM, boost. The hood was shut during the runs for both intakes, and fans were directed at the front grill of the car as well as the shut hood. The goal of this test is to replicate what you can expect from the intakes' performance on the street/track. You don't drive with your hood open so why dyno that way. If you are road racing or auto-x the car, you would have repeated acceleration/deceleration and effectively heat soak the engine bay.

What you can see in the datalog trends below are that the:
1. The Holey Cowl Intake has quicker and more Intake Air Temp (AIT) recovery between dyno runs and maintains a lower AIT overall.
2. HCI flows better than the stock intake. As a result the turbo spools much quicker and feeds a beefy torque curve.
3. As AIT really climbs into the higher temperatures, ignition timing falls off thereby reducing WHP.
4. AIT affects Engine Coolant Temps (ECT). Higher AITs will yield higher ECT. High temps reduce intake air density/WHP and increases susceptibility to detonation.
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l247/agennello/TifosivsOEMIntakeDatalogTrends.png

In the dyno plots below, we are comparing the best results in the series of dynos for both intakes. The Holey Cowl intake yielded an average increase of 17WHP and 17WTQ over the stock intake. WHP and WTQ peak difference is 13WHP and 29WTQ. These are real gains over the stock unit by the HCI's ability to make power and maintain in heat soak scenarios! Even we were surprised.
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l247/agennello/StockvsTifosiIntake.jpg

thanks for the write up and info! did you by any chance do the same run with just a replacement filter on the stock airbox or modified airbox to compare to the CAI plots?


and lol @ vin diesel above thinking he knows everything. i used to drive a vw gti 18t and heard all the horror stories of hydrolocking engines with CAIs i ran one myself till hurricane season and decided it wasnt worth the risk. swiched to a short ram intake and had better results on the low end.

WegoFaster@Ambient Thermal Management
01-30-2013, 01:48 PM
thanks for the write up and info! did you by any chance do the same run with just a replacement filter on the stock airbox or modified airbox to compare to the CAI plots?


and lol @ vin diesel above thinking he knows everything. i used to drive a vw gti 18t and heard all the horror stories of hydrolocking engines with CAIs i ran one myself till hurricane season and decided it wasnt worth the risk. swiched to a short ram intake and had better results on the low end.

We did not, but we did try it without a filter. The biggests issues with the OEM airbox are the restrictions and more so the location at top of the motor where it heatsoaks terribly.

Abarth Phreak
01-30-2013, 11:36 PM
I think you totally misunderstood my post....directed at the other poster's comment about cold air not providing any benefit....which is total Bukkake. But I loveeeeee the oh really picture...lol.


http://www.memecreator.org/static/images/memes/46903.jpg

I can somewhat understand your arguement on an existing efficienct OEM intake and intercooler system, but in the case of the Abarth this isn't so.


Prior to laying out an intake design for the Fiat 500 Abarth, we data logged probable filter location temperatures under many circumstances. We searched for the coolest location which remained cool under the most driving variables.

The filter locations tested are:
• OEM (stock intake)
• Several locations under the hood (in the engine bay)
• The area behind the firewall and under the cowl

The driving variables tested are:
• Cruising @ 40mph
• Several Wide Open Throttles at set distances in specific gears
• Cruising @ 55mph
• Sit idle for 5 minutes

Additional temperatures taken are:
• Ambient (outside) air temperature
• Air temperature in the engine bay (taken on the passenger’s side of the engine)
• Turbo inlet air temperature (taken at the boost solenoid return port)
• Intake manifold air temperatures.
• Forward Looking InfraRed (FLIR) pictures of the engine bay and turbo compressor housing

Below are the results of the test. This chart and line graph displays the difference (Delta Δ Temperature) between the turbo inlet air temperature and the outside ambient air temperature. The lower numbers show that there is little rise in air temperature from the outside ambient air. Therefore the filter location is better isolated and the intake system better insulates the from under hood heat. The Cowl location proves to be the optimal filter location, followed by the OEM intake, and lastly is the under hood.
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l247/agennello/AmbientvsturboInletTest_zpsf8eca5e5.png

The object of the next chart and graph is to show how cooler air at the turbo inlet will result with cooler air in the intake manifold. All of these tests were conducted on the very cold night with ambient temps ranging between 40°F-32°F. In order to place each test on a level playing field, the tests results were compensated for the difference in ambient air temps recorded for each test. The graph below illustrates the turbo inlet air temperatures and the intake manifold air temperatures. Again the filter placement in the cowl location proves to be optimal, with OEM and under hood following.
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l247/agennello/IntakevsAITtemps_zps7f77dc09.png

We took FLIR pictures of the turbo compressor housings after the car idled for 5 minutes. The picture on the far left is with the filter placed in the cowl area. The middle picture is the filter placed in the engine bay. The picture on the far right is the stock intake system. Once again, positioning the filter in the cowl area proved to be the optimal choice.
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l247/agennello/TifosiCompressorHousingAfter5minIdle.jpg http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l247/agennello/OtherGuysComperssorHousingAfter5minIdle.jpg http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l247/agennello/OEMCompressorHousingAfter5minIdle.jpg

As a result of this testing, we decided that the cowl location is superior to all other filter locations. Now that we have the filter location, we need a conduit to flow the air. From past experience, we knew that 5 ply silicone is superior to most other materials for its minimal thermal conductivity while remaining pliable. This means that it insulates from hot under hood temps while having some play for installation differences between cars and minimizes and rattles and other noises.
The Holey Cowl intake (HCI) features a machined (like factory clip in) EVAP fitting, boost solenoid return fitting, and PCV fitting with extension hose.
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l247/agennello/IMG_2964.jpg

We have the cool filter location and an optimal insulating duct, now we need to optimize airflow. There are many ways to convey air into a tube, but there is only one optimal way. The chart below illustrates several methods and the flow coefficient for each (the high numbers are optimal). As you can see the first method proves to the best. This method is often referred to as a “bellmouth”. Air attaches itself to the smooth curved walls and maintains laminar air flow. There is little entropy (inefficient turbulence) which yields the highest flow with the least work required. This means HORSEPOWER!!!!
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l247/agennello/coefficientgraphic_zps5d5943f6.gif

For Ambient Thermal Management, this was a no brainer. We developed a custom billet aluminum bellmouth for the filter to silicone duct interaction.
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l247/agennello/Polishedbellmouth_zps634381dd.png http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l247/agennello/Polishedbellmouth2_zps4024d407.png

To complement the bellmouth, we had a custom filter manufactured to our specifications. The filter location is a tight area with high flow requirements. This filter features maximum surface area and a laminar flow cone ensuring unrestricted performance.
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l247/agennello/filter_zpsd8b18170.jpg
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l247/agennello/Filter2_zps3d88ed6b.jpg

A well designed Cold Air Intake (CAI) does make horsepower on a turbo car. We dynoed and datalogged the Abarth with back to back to back to back to back runs with each intake with approximately 1 minute between runs. We datalogged the intake air temps, engine coolant temps, ignition timing, RPM, boost. The hood was shut during the runs for both intakes, and fans were directed at the front grill of the car as well as the shut hood. The goal of this test is to replicate what you can expect from the intakes' performance on the street/track. You don't drive with your hood open so why dyno that way. If you are road racing or auto-x the car, you would have repeated acceleration/deceleration and effectively heat soak the engine bay.

What you can see in the datalog trends below are that the:
1. The Holey Cowl Intake has quicker and more Intake Air Temp (AIT) recovery between dyno runs and maintains a lower AIT overall.
2. HCI flows better than the stock intake. As a result the turbo spools much quicker and feeds a beefy torque curve.
3. As AIT really climbs into the higher temperatures, ignition timing falls off thereby reducing WHP.
4. AIT affects Engine Coolant Temps (ECT). Higher AITs will yield higher ECT. High temps reduce intake air density/WHP and increases susceptibility to detonation.
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l247/agennello/TifosivsOEMIntakeDatalogTrends.png

In the dyno plots below, we are comparing the best results in the series of dynos for both intakes. The Holey Cowl intake yielded an average increase of 17WHP and 17WTQ over the stock intake. WHP and WTQ peak difference is 13WHP and 29WTQ. These are real gains over the stock unit by the HCI's ability to make power and maintain in heat soak scenarios! Even we were surprised.
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l247/agennello/StockvsTifosiIntake.jpg

Abarth Phreak
01-30-2013, 11:51 PM
Talk about vin diesel...spilner. Clearly you know enough to post bad info, but maybe I misunderstood your post to start. Regardless...air temp has a great deal to do with performance. Even turbos benefit from denser cold air. But you saw wego's info so it's clearly creating power.

WegoFaster@Ambient Thermal Management
01-31-2013, 10:11 AM
I think you totally misunderstood my post....directed at the other poster's comment about cold air not providing any benefit....which is total Bukkake. But I loveeeeee the oh really picture...lol.

You are right. I quoted the wrong post. oopsie

ruben
01-31-2013, 04:00 PM
lol i know enough not to waste my money on a pipe with a filter at the risk of hyrdolocking my engine. maybe if i lived in vegas where it hardly rains and the temp may be enough.

but as your dyno's clearly show, these are all back to back runs. so unless youre racing stop light to stop lights (for whatever reason) its not going to make a drastic difference in performance.

and ill take splinter as a compliment :]

WegoFaster@Ambient Thermal Management
01-31-2013, 04:03 PM
lol i know enough not to waste my money on a pipe with a filter at the risk of hyrdolocking my engine. maybe if i lived in vegas where it hardly rains and the temp may be enough.

but as your dyno's clearly show, these are all back to back runs. so unless youre racing stop light to stop lights (for whatever reason) its not going to make a drastic difference in performance.

and ill take splinter as a compliment :]

Well actually there is without a doubt a noticable increase in HP by bolting it on and driving. Within the next week you should start seeing people posting about it. I'll let them do the talking about it from here on.

MADNESSLuckyJay
01-31-2013, 05:37 PM
CAI's are the biggest joke and high risk for nothing. the air temp isnt enough to make a difference in horse power. 95% of the horse power increase is from the filter anyway. a short ram would suffice if theres space up top for it. worst case you could always modify the stock airbox and change the filter to something that breathes better. on turbo cars its even more pointless as the "cold air" is getting sucked into a hot turbo inlet anyway.

Hey Ruben, thanks for that post, it's great when a non-vendor backs up what has been previously said!

MADNESSLuckyJay
01-31-2013, 05:39 PM
Hey Ruben, thanks for that post, it's great when a non-vendor backs up what has been previously said!

By the way, i was referring to what you said about the air going into a hot turbo, a lot of people ask about a genuine CAI for their turbo cars, and we've been letting people know that on a turbo it isn't necessary, because as soon as the air gets to the turbo it's going to get hot. However I can't say I agree that a CAI on a non turbo is a high risk for nothing

ruben
01-31-2013, 05:45 PM
Well actually there is without a doubt a noticable increase in HP by bolting it on and driving. Within the next week you should start seeing people posting about it. I'll let them do the talking about it from here on.

And I never questioned the gains!

Let me be clear[er] on the point I'm trying to convey

The difference In power from a short ram or filter change to a higher flowing filter is negligible. and running a cai low to the ground is way riskier when rain and flooding is taken To account.

Your data is comparing cai vs non cai. I've also read and witnessed aluminum/metal intakes rusting inside. I'm not a fan of overpriced pipes with filters :)

Abarth Phreak
01-31-2013, 10:24 PM
Nobody is questioning the risk of a low intake. I speak from experience on hydro-locking. I did it to my car...as stated in the earlier post. It wasn't the CAI that hydrolocked my car...it was a combination of chance. Heck I live in California...was I expecting 10" of standing rain at the corner I turned at where water was never at before? I had driven with the CAI for 3 years before it happened...in the rain. Had the splash guard itself been better designed it would not have happened. So live on right...

Your comment "CAI are a Joke" is what is at the table. I am simply disputing your statement about cold air in general. If you think a possible 5-10 HP over a shorty is negligible....then Yes...you personally should not shop for a CAI. Yes, turbo housings are hot...so is the engine block...so is everything under the captive hood...now what? Why did my car make power using a GT-3076R turbo...and more power using a Mopar intake compared to a short ram...verified on a Dynopack....same filter....about 7HP more??? I don't see that as negligible personally. Why did my car make more power after I added a Meth Injection kit? Why did my car make even more power with an upgraded intercooler??? All of these changes got me power from somewhere. I think you are stuck on the fact that cold air is not what is making the power...that's true. Its that cold air is infact denser...and the more air the more fuel added...the more power can be created.

As WEGO said...the truth will be on the streets soon...one mile at a time.

Abarth Phreak
01-31-2013, 10:36 PM
I've also witnessed aluminum intakes rusting inside.

bsflag

Aluminum does not "rust", it corrodes and self protects via a layer of powdery aluminum oxide that stops any further issue beneath it. You may have seen some garbage alloy that had iron in it...but it wasn't just aluminum.

Abarth Phreak
01-31-2013, 10:45 PM
By the way, i was referring to what you said about the air going into a hot turbo, a lot of people ask about a genuine CAI for their turbo cars, and we've been letting people know that on a turbo it isn't necessary, because as soon as the air gets to the turbo it's going to get hot. However I can't say I agree that a CAI on a non turbo is a high risk for nothing

Jay...do you also tell them that a short ram is not necessary either?

For me personally, it is not just a CAI. I personally think a kits appearance is important also. Do you tell customers they don't make power???

Abarth Phreak
01-31-2013, 10:46 PM
You are right. I quoted the wrong post. oopsie

LOL...no worries.

deathshead
02-01-2013, 09:37 AM
bsflag

Aluminum does not "rust", it corrodes and self protects via a layer of powdery aluminum oxide that stops any further issue beneath it. You may have seen some garbage alloy that had iron in it...but it wasn't just aluminum.

The Mopar units such as the CAI for the SRT-4s were actually made by AEM. These units were steel
and painted. those get crusty after a while. I would assume that mopar just buys from the lowest bidder, DO any of the newer mopar intakes even come in aluminum?

Idk, I like a nice heavy duty silicone. It moves, it insulates from heat, does not scratch of rust..

Pinecone
02-01-2013, 10:29 AM
By the way, i was referring to what you said about the air going into a hot turbo, a lot of people ask about a genuine CAI for their turbo cars, and we've been letting people know that on a turbo it isn't necessary, because as soon as the air gets to the turbo it's going to get hot. However I can't say I agree that a CAI on a non turbo is a high risk for nothing

Cold air still helps. Turbos give you a temperature increase based on the amount of compression (gas laws). If you start with colder air, you end up with colder air. Yes it is hotter than it was going in, but the temperature increase is the same.

So if the boost gives a 100 degree rise, if you feed the turbo 100 degree air, you get 200 degree air. If you feed it 200 degree air, you get 300 degree air (not EXACTLY, but close).

Pinecone
02-01-2013, 10:34 AM
The difference In power from a short ram or filter change to a higher flowing filter is negligible.

Maybe, maybe not. It depends on whether one system is tuned or not. Although feeding a turbo negates intake length tuning (upstream of the turbo) as tuning depends on pulses.

But a blanket statement like you made is suspect, as things are seldom black or white.

TurboBullett@Ambient Thermal Management
02-01-2013, 02:57 PM
Cold air still helps. Turbos give you a temperature increase based on the amount of compression (gas laws). If you start with colder air, you end up with colder air. Yes it is hotter than it was going in, but the temperature increase is the same.

So if the boost gives a 100 degree rise, if you feed the turbo 100 degree air, you get 200 degree air. If you feed it 200 degree air, you get 300 degree air (not EXACTLY, but close).

I'll expand on this subject. It certainly seems as though some people have never taken a physics class before?
Anyone here can play with this calculator it shows inlet air temperatures affect on compressor outlet temperatures.
http://www.stealth316.com/2-turbotemp.htm

If anyone would care to look at the extensive data we compiled and posted you can see how much intake air temps can vary for various intake locations and driving types(standing still, low speed cruise/city, high speed cruise/highway). You can also see in this data the affects that the inlet air temps have on component temperatures. The bottom line is that:
hotter air in=hotter air out=more thermal stress on the intercooling system
Hotter air in= hotter compressor cover temps
Hotter air in= hotter engine bay temps

**Hotter air in forces the turbo into a more inefficient island on its compressor map, but that's a post for another day...

Let's play with the above calculator shall we?

We have shown that under many driving circumstances that underhood temps can vary 35-70 degrees higher than ambient temps so let's input an ambient temp of 50-85-120 to show these differences real affect on compressor outlet temps.
To input the data
-use any temps you'd like to see in the input temperature
-input pressure is 1 atmosphere at sea level = 14.5psi
-output pressure= 17psi which is what I see in my car in sport mode
-compressor efficiency is a constant in this test, the Abarth turbo is nearly maxed out so let's chose 65% as a constant, **even though in actuality hotter intake air renders the compressor less efficient as hotter air is less dense forcing the compressor to spin faster to meet the same airflow and pressure(again a post for another day)
-outlet temperature is the temperature as it leaves the turbo before the intercooler


Input Temperature 50ºF
Input pressure 14.5 psi
Output pressure 17 psi
Compressor efficiency 65%
Output temperature 243 degrees

Input Temperature 85ºF
Input pressure 14.5 psi
Output pressure 17 psi
Compressor efficiency 65%
Output temperature 291 degrees
**35 degree inlet temp increase = 48 degree temp(291-243=48) rise at 17 psi boost

Input Temperature 120ºF
Input pressure 14.5 psi
Output pressure 17 psi
Compressor efficiency 65%
Output temperature 339 degrees
**70 degree inlet temperature rise = 96 degree temp(339-243=96) rise at 17 psi

This is the physics of compressing air-Boyles Law and Ideal Gas Law, it's been proven its fact! If anyone here wants to dispute these laws simply prove them wrong and as an added bonus you would get a new law of physics named after you:birthday:

TurboBullett@Ambient Thermal Management
02-01-2013, 04:28 PM
but as your dyno's clearly show, these are all back to back runs. so unless youre racing stop light to stop lights (for whatever reason) its not going to make a drastic difference

Or zipping around the city, or an autocross, or a road course, or the staging lanes before your run at a dragstrip etc etc... Why leave power on the table when you can have it all the time? I've asked naysayers on multiple posts to answer a simple question:
Is your Abarth faster on a cool winter day or a hot summer day?

Abarth Phreak
02-01-2013, 11:50 PM
This is the physics of compressing air-Boyles Law and Ideal Gas Law, it's been proven its fact! If anyone here wants to dispute these laws simply prove them wrong and as an added bonus you would get a new law of physics named after you:birthday:

gun2

You win...:slap:....:bowdown:

Abarth Phreak
02-01-2013, 11:51 PM
Yessir...it was painted. Never had an issue with mine....other than that stupid puddle...lol.


The Mopar units such as the CAI for the SRT-4s were actually made by AEM. These units were steel
and painted. those get crusty after a while. I would assume that mopar just buys from the lowest bidder, DO any of the newer mopar intakes even come in aluminum?

Idk, I like a nice heavy duty silicone. It moves, it insulates from heat, does not scratch of rust..

ruben
02-02-2013, 02:57 PM
youre right it was some metal. i believe it was an AEM or APC that made it.