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MrFiat
01-17-2012, 10:45 AM
A tech question please regarding engine mods.

Given that our new Abarth will be delivered with the Garrett turbo & 160 hp, and that it has been repeatedly stated that 200+ hp is attainable with this setup, the question is: what specifically is involved in bumping up the power output without having to tear the engine apart to do so? Let's say that a target would be 190 hp +/- How close could I come without taking the engine apart?

I'm assuming that the first item is an ECU upgrade. Is this a simple re-flash or does the ECU hardware need to be swapped out? What would be the estimated gain ?

What about CAI? Is Abarth already optimized at the factory or is different hardware part of the power upgrade scheme?

WITHOUT removing the cylinder head, are there any other tricks to boost the output ???? and what would be the estimated gain of each?

I'm glad I still have a carburetor and a screwdriver to play with! - :stupid:- These new cars are just too dog-gone complicated!

blefevre
01-17-2012, 12:18 PM
A ECU re-flash alone will do it. I don't know the exact specs but the injectors are not maxed out at 160hp, neither is the turbo. The ECU flash will adjust the injectors/timing and add more boost. Worse case you will need new injectors to go with the boost.

MrFiat
01-17-2012, 01:31 PM
Thanks for tech talk. I really appreciate it.

Any guesses as to the amount of increase the ECU flash alone will yield? Also, has there been any talk as to what, if any, negative impact the increased pressures might have on the engine? The 160hp tune must have (we hope) been decided upon for some good reason or other.

luke_vibert_uk
01-17-2012, 02:03 PM
There are remaps for the Euro 500's and SS's but these are both using the smaller turbo.

I don't believe there are maps available for the larger Garatt Turbo/160bhp combo, as this combination doesn't exist on the Euro market... yet. So its only a matter of time if one doesn't already exist or is being worked on.

The only obvious choice would be the 695 Tributo Map which is delivered (180bhp) with the larger Garatt turbo...bolt on a free'er flowing exhaust and you could see 185bhp...

The engines are strong enough to take significantly more and proven on some of the European Forums. You just need to think about how you are going to stop it.

blefevre
01-17-2012, 02:59 PM
The Punto Abarth SS uses the same turbo and the 1.4 multi-air that we have in our 500 Abarth. We have minor tweaks, but very much the same. That version is 180hp. The engine is mostly forged so there is no question that it will take over 200hp. The biggest unknowns right now is the fuel injectors and how effective the dual intercoolers are. I would almost bet that we get a power pack with 180hp from the factory. I would be very surprised if it needed larger fuel injectors for 12-13% increase in power.

VTEC Mini
01-17-2012, 04:06 PM
Just a thought; http://www.abarth-scagliarini.com/scagliarini#!__scagliarini/tuning

blefevre
01-17-2012, 04:19 PM
Just a thought; http://www.abarth-scagliarini.com/scagliarini#!__scagliarini/tuning

Keep in mind that they have done zero testing with a North American 500 Abarth. They are making those claims on what they know about the european 1.4 multi-air and what they are hoping to hit once they can do testing with our Abarth.

VTEC Mini
01-17-2012, 04:45 PM
Keep in mind that they have done zero testing with a North American 500 Abarth. They are making those claims on what they know about the european 1.4 multi-air and what they are hoping to hit once they can do testing with our Abarth.Hence the "Just a thought" part of my post.

Felnus
01-17-2012, 04:49 PM
A cold air intake would help as would increasing the exhaust diameter and reducing restrictions in the exhaust. It is possible to run most turbo engines without a muffler and they aren't obnoxiously loud. ECU tuning to raise the boost and fuel would definitely help. Exploring the possiblity of removing the two smaller intercoolers and replacing them with one front mounted intercooler with a larger surface area to drop the intake temperatures even more could work. Finding the room in the nose of the Abarth to do that would be the issue though. Water/methanol injection is a neat little trick too but you better have your tuning ducks in a row.

blefevre
01-17-2012, 04:54 PM
Hence the "Just a thought" part of my post.\

Yep, I just didn't want anyone to get misleaded.

epb
01-17-2012, 09:49 PM
Isn't the big unkown the US transmissions? The European cars get a paddle-shift 6-speed with stronger internals, iirc.

blefevre
01-17-2012, 10:17 PM
Isn't the big unkown the US transmissions? The European cars get a paddle-shift 6-speed with stronger internals, iirc.

The 5-speed is the same C510 box that is in the Euro cars.

buzzny
01-17-2012, 10:46 PM
A tech question please regarding engine mods.

Given that our new Abarth will be delivered with the Garrett turbo & 160 hp, and that it has been repeatedly stated that 200+ hp is attainable with this setup, the question is: what specifically is involved in bumping up the power output without having to tear the engine apart to do so? Let's say that a target would be 190 hp +/- How close could I come without taking the engine apart?

I'm assuming that the first item is an ECU upgrade. Is this a simple re-flash or does the ECU hardware need to be swapped out? What would be the estimated gain ?

What about CAI? Is Abarth already optimized at the factory or is different hardware part of the power upgrade scheme?

WITHOUT removing the cylinder head, are there any other tricks to boost the output ???? and what would be the estimated gain of each?

I'm glad I still have a carburetor and a screwdriver to play with! - :stupid:- These new cars are just too dog-gone complicated!
Spoken like a true CNY musician!

epb
01-17-2012, 11:39 PM
The 5-speed is the same C510 box that is in the Euro cars.

In the Abarths?

geeded
01-18-2012, 12:12 AM
In the Abarths?

Yep, same one and it's the weak point, not the engine. The C510 has a max torque of 203 nm I think and our cars top out at 230 nm. It's the same as the Euro Abarths. The ones with higher output use different transmissions.

Our engine is a version of the one used by Alfa Romeo. That engine is rated at either 170 or 180 bhp. The easiest way to increase hp is using a plug & play kit from, for instance, TMC Motorsports in England. They have a very good reputation in the forums and are very well known. The best part is you can put it in or take it out when you go in for service.

I'd check with them since they already make a kit for the Alfa engine. I think it ups the power to 190 or 200 bhp. But I'd take it easy on the transmission :)

Cheers

blefevre
01-18-2012, 12:49 AM
I forgot about that pesky transmission. That is a serious question that needs to be answered. When driving in non-sport mode it limits the torque. I really hope they don't pull a "well your transmission broke because you used sport mode a lot"

VTEC Mini
01-18-2012, 10:04 AM
I thought I read somewhere it was beefed up for the U.S. market- I think it might have been the MT "Fiat issue"...... I am probably wrong...

MrFiat
01-18-2012, 11:10 AM
Yep, same one and it's the weak point, not the engine. The C510 has a max torque of 203 nm I think and our cars top out at 230 nm. It's the same as the Euro Abarths. The ones with higher output use different transmissions. -------------. But I'd take it easy on the transmission :)

Cheers

This one is for Chris V.

I think this is a great question to ask the Abarth engineers. Have they "beefed up" our gearbox? Or is the max torque spec on our 5 speed box still lower than the 160 hp/230nm numbers our engine can put out.

Wouldn't that severely limit the practicality of upgrading the engines for more hp?

Geeded --thanks for bringing this point up. The wily Terlingua Rabbit strikes again! And a BIG thanks to BLef & ALL of you for the comments in this thread. Thanks to you folks, I'm learning a lot about the ins & outs of this newer technology we call "cars". This new Abarth is gonna be a barrel of fun but honestly, I really want my carburetor back! :sentimental:

Thomas
01-18-2012, 12:24 PM
I also read that the transmission was beefed up in a few areas, but was approaching limitations of what it could take.

luke_vibert_uk
01-18-2012, 03:48 PM
I would be very suprise Abarth sell a car with a gear box not suited to the engine.

The boxes on the Euro spec 500 are strong and reliable enough to take more than the standard Euro Esseesse set up....there are enough threads out there of people doing serious mods out there with no reliability issues.

MrFiat
01-18-2012, 05:00 PM
Thanks Luke,
Here's a bit of an unrelated question: How's the cabin noise level compared to a stock 500? Is it reasonably unobtrusive for a long road trip?

luke_vibert_uk
01-22-2012, 04:50 AM
Noise wise its noticable. There is deffinatly more of an induction growl than the thrum of an engine...as to how noisy here are the facts!

http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/9485/a500data.jpg

I've got the whole article if anyone is interested - all based on a UK Spec 500...and makes a lot of comparisons with the Cooper S.

Thomas
01-22-2012, 08:20 PM
Thanks for this Luke. I thought that the 0-60 times would be more like in the low 7s. I think that 0-60 measure itself is a bit over stated in terms of how critical it is to real world driving, but nonetheless.