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rtwolfe
12-09-2011, 12:31 AM
I had not seen this mentioned before (http://www.fiatpress.com/press/detail/11398). More details at the link ("http://www.fiatpress.com/press/detail/11398). It's a turbo Twin Air. Is a european option today.

Fiat! What a Cool car company. More torque, at least at the low end and 30% better in fuel economy (I'd calc that at 48/mpg highway) vs our 100 HP 1.4 Do you think USA buyers would like an 'Abarth'-ized Twin Air?

"Separate mention must be made of the 85 HP TwinAir Turbo - forerunner of a new two-cylinder engine family from Fiat Powertrain, with performance levels between 65 and 105 HP - which emphasises the fun driving qualities of this car while returning excellent performance levels, borne out by a top speed of 173 km/h and acceleration from 0 to 100 km/h in just 11 seconds. When compared with the 100 HP 1.4 engine, the 85 HP TwinAir delivers a torque increase of 25% at 2,000 rpm despite a reduction of 30% in fuel consumption."

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-xaD9GDViuho/Tt4zRDi2fDI/AAAAAAAAXXI/AJ1P1Kmr_jk/s400/NewFiat500_byAbarth_Pack11.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-kFvig6B4SeE/TtiUQQ11lfI/AAAAAAAAXNc/RvUlvo7Betg/s400/NewFiat500_byAbarth_Pack1.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ICVKelCUwG8/Tt4zQwyX4BI/AAAAAAAAXXA/yb83Lrcgz7A/s400/NewFiat500_byAbarth_Pack12.jpg

http://car-modifications.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/2012-Fiat-500-TwinAir.jpg

http://car-modifications.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/2012-Fiat-500-TwinAir-2.jpg

But no Boost Guage.

http://car-modifications.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/2012-Fiat-500-TwinAir-1.jpg

msjulie33
12-09-2011, 12:39 AM
I've love to see more powerplant options here but it seems EPA and other regs don't make it cost effective; sadly that seems to prevent efficient clean engines more often than not.

My husband's VW TDI is a great car, gutsy, fast, quick off the line with 5 people and luggage and 40mpg or so on the highway (sometimes more, less at high altitudes/heavy right foot weights).

The twin air with turbo sounds like it could be a fun runabout and when limping about in traffic, pretty efficient too. Speaking of, why can't we get stop/start technology in this country? So much time sitting at traffic lights.... sorry wandered off topic :)

Fiat500USA
12-09-2011, 02:28 AM
I had not seen this mentioned before (http://www.fiatpress.com/press/detail/11398). More details at the link ("http://www.fiatpress.com/press/detail/11398). It's a turbo Twin Air. Is a european option today.

Fiat! What a Cool car company. More torque, at least at the low end and 30% better in fuel economy (I'd calc that at 48/mpg highway) vs our 100 HP 1.4 Do you think USA buyers would like an 'Abarth'-ized Twin Air?

"Separate mention must be made of the 85 HP TwinAir Turbo - forerunner of a new two-cylinder engine family from Fiat Powertrain, with performance levels between 65 and 105 HP - which emphasises the fun driving qualities of this car while returning excellent performance levels, borne out by a top speed of 173 km/h and acceleration from 0 to 100 km/h in just 11 seconds. When compared with the 100 HP 1.4 engine, the 85 HP TwinAir delivers a torque increase of 25% at 2,000 rpm despite a reduction of 30% in fuel consumption."

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-xaD9GDViuho/Tt4zRDi2fDI/AAAAAAAAXXI/AJ1P1Kmr_jk/s400/NewFiat500_byAbarth_Pack11.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-kFvig6B4SeE/TtiUQQ11lfI/AAAAAAAAXNc/RvUlvo7Betg/s400/NewFiat500_byAbarth_Pack1.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ICVKelCUwG8/Tt4zQwyX4BI/AAAAAAAAXXA/yb83Lrcgz7A/s400/NewFiat500_byAbarth_Pack12.jpg

http://car-modifications.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/2012-Fiat-500-TwinAir.jpg

http://car-modifications.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/2012-Fiat-500-TwinAir-2.jpg

But no Boost Guage.

http://car-modifications.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/2012-Fiat-500-TwinAir-1.jpg

I did a story on the 'byAbarth Package' back in September:

http://www.fiat500usa.com/2011/09/fiat-500-twinair-at-2011-frankfurt-auto.html

I've been waiting for the pics, but of course, why would they send them to me? ;)

cmj912
12-09-2011, 11:11 AM
Most of the online video reviews I've seen of the TwinAir are genius. The sound of the engine and its driving characteristics, according to what I've seen, are quite brilliant.

But no, msjulie, you're right. We tend to get the short-end of the stick when it comes to technologies popular in Europe - diesel and TwinAir among them. It seems that the failure of many American bastions of the automotive industry over the past couple of years have not taught us to innovate and diversify. I think we're 'protected' from this kind of thing in certain ways to guarantee that we keep buying the inefficient and outdated. We also do not receive too many incentives/rewards for buying more efficient/greener/better/smaller. Sure, if you buy a hybrid, you get a bit of a tax break but those cars still aren't really that affordable in general.

But a TwinAir? You should get credits for going with something like that - like how it is cheaper to own a kei car in Japan or a smaller diesel-enginer car in Norway.

Oh, and the 500 above? Also genius. A little more swag without the hit you'd take in Europe for the full-on performance version.
Although I'd buy it for the growly little turbocharged engine alone...

luke_vibert_uk
12-09-2011, 11:21 AM
Lets just say that the quoted TwinAir results and real world results are somewhat different.

A lot of the Big Boy Auto Mags have been running them as 'Long Term test cars' and struggling to get anywhere near the quoted MPGs.

geeded
12-09-2011, 12:15 PM
I had not seen this mentioned before (http://www.fiatpress.com/press/detail/11398). More details at the link ("http://www.fiatpress.com/press/detail/11398). It's a turbo Twin Air. Is a european option today.

Fiat! What a Cool car company. More torque, at least at the low end and 30% better in fuel economy (I'd calc that at 48/mpg highway) vs our 100 HP 1.4 Do you think USA buyers would like an 'Abarth'-ized Twin Air?


Nice idea, but I think, no. FIAT can't sell 100hp 500's, so I certainly can't see them selling an 85hp version. An "Abarth" version means nothing now, because the Abarth has no history here and hasn't even started selling its HiPo version. If it is successful and Abarth becomes a "Performance" mark such, as the VW GTI, then maybe... but not with a LESS powerful version than the 500.

FIAT is currently in an enviable position as far as MPG is concerned. Buyers usually get a higher number than the EPA combined. This is in stark contrast to Hyundai, where they are getting bad publicity over the actual MPG their cars achieve.

Let's get the Abarth successfully launched, followed by Alfa Romeo, then think about an auto that makes a niche car seem mainstream.

As always, YMMV.
Cheers

epb
12-09-2011, 12:26 PM
Nice idea, but I think, no. FIAT can't sell 100hp 500's, so I certainly can't see them selling an 85hp version.

^WHS. I've seen 2 chief criticisms of the 500 since getting mine - that 100hp is not enough horsepower, while 38mpg is not enough mileage. Such irrational thinkers would not be appeased by a torquier 85hp Fiat with better mileage, unless it was the size of a Chrysler 300C, faster than a Corvette, and cheaper than a salvage-title 1970 VW Beetle.

Fiat500USA
12-09-2011, 01:03 PM
Remember, there is a 100 hp TwinAir that has more torque than our 1.4L. That is the one we'll get (if we get it). ;)

fiat for life
12-09-2011, 02:17 PM
^WHS. I've seen 2 chief criticisms of the 500 since getting mine - that 100hp is not enough horsepower, while 38mpg is not enough mileage. Such irrational thinkers would not be appeased by a torquier 85hp Fiat with better mileage, unless it was the size of a Chrysler 300C, faster than a Corvette, and cheaper than a salvage-title 1970 VW Beetle.
Probably one of the funniest things Ive read on this forum ahahahah

cmj912
12-09-2011, 02:46 PM
^WHS. I've seen 2 chief criticisms of the 500 since getting mine - that 100hp is not enough horsepower, while 38mpg is not enough mileage. Such irrational thinkers would not be appeased by a torquier 85hp Fiat with better mileage, unless it was the size of a Chrysler 300C, faster than a Corvette, and cheaper than a salvage-title 1970 VW Beetle.

And you forgot: "could withstand an 85MPH crash with a Range Rover completely unscathed".

msjulie33
12-09-2011, 05:07 PM
And you forgot: "could withstand an 85MPH crash with a Range Rover completely unscathed".

ha exactly! :)

epb
12-09-2011, 06:34 PM
And you forgot: "could withstand an 85MPH crash with a Range Rover completely unscathed".

Yeah, I've never gotten the whole "what if you're hit by a semi?" comment - what passenger car can handle that? My response is always "Well, first I'll make sure the driver is okay, and then exchange insurance information..."

rtwolfe
12-14-2011, 12:35 AM
Just found a You Tube - with subtitles - for the Fiat TwinAir 500 - "byAbarth" Pack.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XldWkrKpKfs

geeded
12-14-2011, 02:01 AM
Remember, there is a 100 hp TwinAir that has more torque than our 1.4L. That is the one we'll get (if we get it). ;)

That's interesting but I still think that it was a mistake to sell the 500 with only 100hp, so another car with 100 hp seems pointless. If FIAT could have found another 10 or better, 20 hp, I think people would be giving FIAT more of a look. This is not because the 500 needs more but that the buying public here needs more to feel comfortable. I don't see this changing.

Any changes to FIAT's engines should ONLY be higher hp not static or lower. We all know that a higher torque number means easier driving but most people focus on hp because they've always been sold hp. Let's face it, here in the USA, almost all engines had plenty of torque (being large displacement), so you have to sell something. Times change but the buying public... not so much.

I hope I'm wrong but I will have had a deposit down for a year or more before I finally get, you guessed it, a 500 with more hp. Hey, I never said I was immune.....

YMMV

Fiat500USA
12-14-2011, 09:54 AM
That's interesting but I still think that it was a mistake to sell the 500 with only 100hp, so another car with 100 hp seems pointless. If FIAT could have found another 10 or better, 20 hp, I think people would be giving FIAT more of a look. This is not because the 500 needs more but that the buying public here needs more to feel comfortable. I don't see this changing.

Any changes to FIAT's engines should ONLY be higher hp not static or lower. We all know that a higher torque number means easier driving but most people focus on hp because they've always been sold hp. Let's face it, here in the USA, almost all engines had plenty of torque (being large displacement), so you have to sell something. Times change but the buying public... not so much.

I hope I'm wrong but I will have had a deposit down for a year or more before I finally get, you guessed it, a 500 with more hp. Hey, I never said I was immune.....

YMMV

Fiat needs to do a better job at telling their story and not the Lopez story. Ok, we know that the 500 has 100 hp and MultiAir, but what the general public needs to be made aware of is MultiAir is about driveability and especially works at part throttle. It optimises the torque there and at low rpms - that's why you can shift under 2,000 rpms and still drive the car. If this car didn't have MultiAir, it would lose a lot of driveability.

People see 100 hp or read some road tester short shifting the car and get the wrong idea. The owners here know, if you use the car properly, you have no problem staying out in front in most traffic situations.

VTEC Mini
12-14-2011, 10:35 AM
That's interesting but I still think that it was a mistake to sell the 500 with only 100hp, so another car with 100 hp seems pointless. If FIAT could have found another 10 or better, 20 hp, I think people would be giving FIAT more of a look. This is not because the 500 needs more but that the buying public here needs more to feel comfortable. I don't see this changing.

Any changes to FIAT's engines should ONLY be higher hp not static or lower. We all know that a higher torque number means easier driving but most people focus on hp because they've always been sold hp. Let's face it, here in the USA, almost all engines had plenty of torque (being large displacement), so you have to sell something. Times change but the buying public... not so much.

I hope I'm wrong but I will have had a deposit down for a year or more before I finally get, you guessed it, a 500 with more hp. Hey, I never said I was immune.....

YMMV+1

luke_vibert_uk
12-14-2011, 02:41 PM
That's interesting but I still think that it was a mistake to sell the 500 with only 100hp, so another car with 100 hp seems pointless. If FIAT could have found another 10 or better, 20 hp, I think people would be giving FIAT more of a look. This is not because the 500 needs more but that the buying public here needs more to feel comfortable. I don't see this changing.

I think this is a perception based on the differing markets. Here in the UK, small city cars do not tend to have more than 100bhp some are even as low as 50bhp. The Fiat Panda 100bhp (http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evolongtermtests/208163/fiat_panda_100hp.html) is also held in regard as better than the Abarth 500.

What you need to remember is that a lot of the EU tax laws are based on emissions and the range of vehicles is established to reflect this.

To give you an idea, as a driver of the UK roads I have to pay a Road Fund Licence (RFL). The amount you pay is based on each vehicles CO2g per KM output, the higher the output the higher RFL you pay.

So to give you an idea, my 2.0 Performance French hatchback is in Band K @395 per year - grossly inefficient but high performance powerful engine. My 1.4 Abarth 500 Esseesse sits in Band E @ so is 165 per year. Some of the Fiat 1.2/1.4 engines are in Band B, 35 per year and the Twin Air is in Band A and is therefore 0.

This provides you an incentive to go for the eco option as the RFL is increasing year on year to discourage inefficient cars. My French Hatchback was sold as in two years I could potentially paying 500 a year just to keep it legal, meanwhile the increasing RFL hits used vehicle valuations. In addition to this, our fuel prices are 85% tax and expensive, therefore manipulating your choices towards the more efficient options.

I personally dont see less than 100bhp an issue. Some small capacity screamers are an absolute joy to blast about.

VTEC Mini
12-14-2011, 03:49 PM
I think this is a perception based on the differing markets. Here in the UK, small city cars do not tend to have more than 100bhp some are even as low as 50bhp. The Fiat Panda 100bhp (http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evolongtermtests/208163/fiat_panda_100hp.html) is also held in regard as better than the Abarth 500.

What you need to remember is that a lot of the EU tax laws are based on emissions and the range of vehicles is established to reflect this.

To give you an idea, as a driver of the UK roads I have to pay a Road Fund Licence (RFL). The amount you pay is based on each vehicles CO2g per KM output, the higher the output the higher RFL you pay.

So to give you an idea, my 2.0 Performance French hatchback is in Band K @395 per year - grossly inefficient but high performance powerful engine. My 1.4 Abarth 500 Esseesse sits in Band E @ so is 165 per year. Some of the Fiat 1.2/1.4 engines are in Band B, 35 per year and the Twin Air is in Band A and is therefore 0.

This provides you an incentive to go for the eco option as the RFL is increasing year on year to discourage inefficient cars. My French Hatchback was sold as in two years I could potentially paying 500 a year just to keep it legal, meanwhile the increasing RFL hits used vehicle valuations. In addition to this, our fuel prices are 85% tax and expensive, therefore manipulating your choices towards the more efficient options.

I personally dont see less than 100bhp an issue. Some small capacity screamers are an absolute joy to blast about.I think what he was referring to was here in the U.S. "bigger is better" here. That's why we have Hemi Dodges, Roush/ Shelby Mustangs, Camaro SS, Big SUV's and trucks. Even in 2008 when gas prices spiked people complained big time but refused to down size. Not to mention small cars have a bad reputation in the land of giants. America has been this way since the dawn of the automobile. There are very few cars below 100 HP in America and viewed as cheap, worthless, gutless, death traps. I have right now a 2011 Honda CR-Z at 122HP and 124 Torque and to be honest, it is the one thing I don't like about the car. It is hard to get going and keep up in Southern California traffic.

A new law was passed that by 2025 all cars must meet 50 MPG. Add to it we are about to be taxed for even breathing I suspect sooner than latter Americans will be forced to go toward a smaller car route.

geeded
12-14-2011, 04:37 PM
I think this is a perception based on the differing markets. Here in the UK, small city cars do not tend to have more than 100bhp some are even as low as 50bhp. The Fiat Panda 100bhp (http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evolongtermtests/208163/fiat_panda_100hp.html) is also held in regard as better than the Abarth 500.

What you need to remember is that a lot of the EU tax laws are based on emissions and the range of vehicles is established to reflect this.

To give you an idea, as a driver of the UK roads I have to pay a Road Fund Licence (RFL). The amount you pay is based on each vehicles CO2g per KM output, the higher the output the higher RFL you pay.

So to give you an idea, my 2.0 Performance French hatchback is in Band K @395 per year - grossly inefficient but high performance powerful engine. My 1.4 Abarth 500 Esseesse sits in Band E @ so is 165 per year. Some of the Fiat 1.2/1.4 engines are in Band B, 35 per year and the Twin Air is in Band A and is therefore 0.

This provides you an incentive to go for the eco option as the RFL is increasing year on year to discourage inefficient cars. My French Hatchback was sold as in two years I could potentially paying 500 a year just to keep it legal, meanwhile the increasing RFL hits used vehicle valuations. In addition to this, our fuel prices are 85% tax and expensive, therefore manipulating your choices towards the more efficient options.

I personally don't see less than 100bhp an issue. Some small capacity screamers are an absolute joy to blast about.

Agreed. I understand how the Euro system works, and has worked for many decades, and that FIAT is totally inculcated in that system. However, we are talking about selling the 500 here. The US system is TOTALLY different. The entire car manufacturer (GM, Ford, etc) has to meet a set mileage figure, so some cars or trucks can get low mileage, some high, and the average is all that matters (along with the EPA smog figures). NO additional price for a large or small engine, extra only if the vehicle is grossly fuel inefficient (Ferrari, Rolls, etc). Therefore, people buy what they like and only worry about fuel mileage when the price goes up....and stays up. The engine displacement doesn't enter into the equation. That's the way it has been here since 1968. Before that, it was "run what you brung" which is one big reason why we sell "horsepower" not torque. High torque was a given.

Not saying which system is better, only that FIAT has to understand the market here. HERE is where they are trying to crack the market. You (or me) can talk until we're blue in the face about Co2 and minimum acceptable hp BUT unless it correlates with the expectations of the buying public, you're going to have trouble.

So, here in the good 'ol USA, most will only drive an "eco" car if it looks like an eco car (think Prius) so the drivers of these vehicles get positive feedback from their like-minded friends (be sure to check out the "South Park" episode "Smug Alert"). Just peruse the sales figures of hybrid vehicles that look the normal, non-hybrid version. Heck, we like 5.0 liter cars with over 400 hp even though there are very few places to actually use such power. We can, therefore we do... It's sort of why we are what we are, I think. FIAT has to understand this and act on it. The market here is changing, but very slowly.

As always, YMMV

Cheers

F500
12-14-2011, 05:44 PM
I loved that South Park episode, but then again, I love MOST South Park episodes......LOL