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View Full Version : Abarth competitor making life hard



geeded
12-02-2011, 05:59 PM
Howdy,

Just got this off of Jalopnik:

http://jalopnik.com/subaru-brz/

This from MotorTrend:

http://wot.motortrend.com/2013-subaru-brz-price-starts-at-24000-and-we-have-the-detailed-specs-142245.html

I'm of the mind that this car could very well be cross-shopped with the Abarth (at these prices, who wouldn't). 24k (Nav std) to start and topping out at $27k. Sheesh..... Man, how do you compete with that? Especially when, even if you're 6'3", you'll still fit? It has me wondering what it's going to take for Abarth to survive in such a market. Especially if they start at $24.5k...

Felnus
12-02-2011, 06:11 PM
Meh....the Abarth has more torque. Frankly, I'm trying to figure out how in the heck they are squeezing a 16" disc brake into a 17" wheel on the Limited model or did I read that incorrectly?

blefevre
12-02-2011, 06:24 PM
Meh....the Abarth has more torque. Frankly, I'm trying to figure out how in the heck they are squeezing a 16" disc brake into a 17" wheel on the Limited model or did I read that incorrectly?

That is probably a typo.

The car is tempting. It would allow me to stick with RWD and not go back to FWD.

Giallo Edizione
12-02-2011, 06:58 PM
Yawn.

txdesign
12-02-2011, 07:41 PM
Good news for Fiat and other manufacturers in this price range that the Toyota/Subaru twins don't look anywhere as sexy as the prototype shown at the New York auto show- that car was fantastic. The production model leaves me cold.
Still 24K and RWD is a nice combo.

Chris
12-02-2011, 09:11 PM
Let's not fool ourselves... this car is going to be a winner if they hit those prices. I know somebody who knows somebody that's driven it... stock it's supposedly wicked fun.

Reaperman
12-02-2011, 09:34 PM
odd that you should mention it, I was off at the scion site looking just yesterday. I didn't think it was ever aimed at the under 25k pricepoint though, and I didn't think it was so light. (I could find neither number on the scion)

I signed up for their mailing list too.
Maybe I'll swing by the toyota dealer tomorrow.

buzzny
12-02-2011, 09:44 PM
Let's not fool ourselves... this car is going to be a winner if they hit those prices. I know somebody who knows somebody that's driven it... stock it's supposedly wicked fun.

Realistically knowing Subie & Toyo Do you think performance and accessories can be delivered for this price point? I get Subies 'Drive' magazine and also Subies 'Performance' magazine which both give present Subie owners a heads up on what is soon to be coming out with what and knowing these companies to sell at this pricepoint would be one of those 'let's advertise at this price but realistically it will be about 4-5k more at sale'. OK, disagree with me, because I CAN'T stand arguments. But this is only MY opinion. Like new Subie Forester starts @ $20,595 but.... OK, ya want a little extra, ya want whats really available, ya want a little extra boost (Turbo)...NOW it starts, yes, starts at $29,895. About $9,300 more that the lure. Now... lets add what you really want. I am up to $33K. To me I spent 25,250 for my Fiat and I feel it is well worth it. My (OK, Hopeful) Abarth I expect to pay probably about $30. Boo me, go ahead, Fiat love me for saying it go ahead. But I an being realistic for what I will spend and don't forget, what I will want on it.
I will move off the soapbox now.

Scorpion
12-02-2011, 09:47 PM
A very different machine than the Abarth, but I think the original poster is right to see them as in the same cross-shopping sphere. I am SERIOUSLY considering this car. The only thing that may stop me is if my 6'3" 220lbs. self won't comfortably fit into it. I will know for certain at the Detroit International Auto Show in January.

For those that are interested, we have a long and detailed discussion going on over at Focaljet about the GT/FR-S/BRZ triplets:

http://forums.focaljet.com/team-pit-stop/656674-toyobaru-launches-early-toyota-gt-86-europe.html

Max
12-04-2011, 01:05 AM
Odd, I wouldn't consider cross shopping it. Not because its a Toyota or a Scion, I just don't see the same nostalgia behind it as in say the FIAT or Mini. When I opened the first link, before I knew it was a co Toyota Scion model/platform the first thing that came to mind was it looks like a Scion... I like Toyota's and love the FJ Cruiser but then again that falls under the nostalgia section...maybe thats what seems to appeal to me in cars these days. I also love Alfa Romeo's and can't wait till those hit the US market. A 4C (baby 8C Competizione) is looking quite nice. I also wouldn't mind seeing a new 2013 Mazda RX7 redo based on the 70's first generation rotary.

Max

fiat for life
12-04-2011, 04:27 PM
Thats a different car altogether. Apples to oranges

Max
12-04-2011, 05:56 PM
Maybe I stand somewhat corrected. I went by my FIAT Studio this afternoon to return the 500C they lent me and one of the sales reps (young guy) was talking about this car and how he will want it over the ABARTH...thus I guess some may lean towards this vehicle. Lets see if it ends up coming out in the US as shown before we really compare. Actually, lets see what the ABARTH comes in at in price point and final specs too before a real compare.. Competition can only be a good thing. If FIAT feels threatened by the price point on "same" segment cars it way be forced to adjust its pricing...
I'm still placing my vote with the ABARTH over this particular Toyota/Subi/Scion frankenstein car.

Max

Fiat500USA
12-04-2011, 06:22 PM
I'm sure it will be a popular car. That is what it is suppose to be. Buying a popular car is not what I'm about, I want something others don't have from a company I can be proud of and has a legacy of contributing to the automotive world.

Not to be harsh, but Toyota has squandered all their talent into making boring, humdrum appliances and considering their size, contributed barely anything to car enthusiasts. For a car company with the resources of Toyota to do that really offends the car enthusiast in me.

Subaru? They at least have pioneered some technology and there is the WRC. But if you don't get their hottest stuff, their cars are pretty boring, too.

The Toyota/Subi/Scion will have all the figures and numbers, but that's what it will be - figures and numbers. You can't fabricate a heritage with a fancy name.

Scorpion
12-04-2011, 08:16 PM
Lets see if it ends up coming out in the US as shown before we really compare.

Both the Subaru and the Scion are confirmed for US sale, and will be out mid-2012. In fact, the Scion brand is only sold in the US.

Max
12-04-2011, 09:11 PM
Both the Subaru and the Scion are confirmed for US sale, and will be out mid-2012. In fact, the Scion brand is only sold in the US.

Hi Scorpion

I ment more "as shown". Typically Manufacturers have a history of detuning cars for our markets (US and Canada). I guess its something about the impression of Americans being fat and lazy... I don't know much about these models and admit I did not bother to read the article as neither variant interests me. Don't get me wrong I am a big fan of the Subaru non interference boxer engine. A great design with recent up dates that have finally brought the fuel economy on par with in line or V engines. I've owned a 97 Legacy GT sedan back in the day and currently have a 97 Subaru SVX (for sale if anyone wants it) so I like Subaru's. I'd be more of a WRX, a Brat or a Baja kind of guy when it comes to this brand. From Toyota the only current models that interest me are either the Prius or FJ Cruiser. Of tester years it would be the 1993-1998 Turbo Supra MKIV or better yet the 2000GT of the late 60's but all these mentioned have nothing to do with the model in question. I'm only adding it as an indication that my lack of taste for them does not stem from general dislike towards the brands.

Have they confirmed what the final full US production specs will be? I'll have to agree with "FIAT500USA" on that these cars will be just another "number" lacking heart and soul behind them. I'm sure to some it will feel like they do but to me I'd much prefer a FIAT ABARTH or Mini Cooper S or better yet JCW. I'd even prefer a KIA SOUL...:)

Max

Scorpion
12-04-2011, 11:59 PM
The ironic thing, is that a lot of people on the internet are disappointed with the 'numbers' of the '86'. As in they think it should have more HP. I don't necessarily share that view.

Also, the 86 was developed with an eye toward a history. The goal was to produce a fun-to-drive, low-weight, affordable, RWD coupe… in the vein of the original AE86.

This car will be a driver's car. Everything from the F/R balance and weight, to the CG have been well-thought out. The handling dynamic benchmark was the Cayman. And, initial driving reports suggest that the handling is very good.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of the Abarth, and still may end up with one. But, for those that LIKE to DRIVE, ignoring the 86 would be myopic.

Max
12-05-2011, 12:46 AM
The ironic thing, is that a lot of people on the internet are disappointed with the 'numbers' of the '86'. As in they think it should have more HP. I don't necessarily share that view.

Also, the 86 was developed with an eye toward a history. The goal was to produce a fun-to-drive, low-weight, affordable, RWD coupe… in the vein of the original AE86.

This car will be a driver's car. Everything from the F/R balance and weight, to the CG have been well-thought out. The handling dynamic benchmark was the Cayman. And, initial driving reports suggest that the handling is very good.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of the Abarth, and still may end up with one. But, for those that LIKE to DRIVE, ignoring the 86 would be myopic.

Interesting. I'm still going with an ABARTH however you have sparked and interest in the model.
I'll go and educate myself on it.

Thanks

Max

Max

Fiat500USA
12-05-2011, 02:00 AM
Having said what I said, I still told my parents to buy a Toyota when they needed a car. It's what fit their needs.

As for this new '86' car, I'm sure it will have outstanding numbers and will be fun, and I won't take anything away from that. However, I think of it as an NSX. A car with everything, but nothing that makes me want to look back when I walk away from it.

RLove
12-05-2011, 12:32 PM
The ironic thing, is that a lot of people on the internet are disappointed with the 'numbers' of the '86'. As in they think it should have more HP. I don't necessarily share that view.

Also, the 86 was developed with an eye toward a history. The goal was to produce a fun-to-drive, low-weight, affordable, RWD coupe… in the vein of the original AE86.

This car will be a driver's car. Everything from the F/R balance and weight, to the CG have been well-thought out. The handling dynamic benchmark was the Cayman. And, initial driving reports suggest that the handling is very good.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of the Abarth, and still may end up with one. But, for those that LIKE to DRIVE, ignoring the 86 would be myopic.

+1

geeded
12-05-2011, 01:22 PM
Having said what I said, I still told my parents to buy a Toyota when they needed a car. It's what fit their needs.

As for this new '86' car, I'm sure it will have outstanding numbers and will be fun, and I won't take anything away from that. However, I think of it as an NSX. A car with everything, but nothing that makes me want to look back when I walk away from it.

It's due out in spring/summer next year. Whether or not it's a typical "Toyota" won't be known until then. However, the engineering was done mainly by Subaru whch is a big plus. I've been driving for a LONG time and one of the few Japanese cars "with soul" I've spend time with was a Subaru (being the iconoclasts that they are), so I'll withhold judgement until they arrive.

In any case, there are two things that preclude me owning one. First is that I will already be driving my new Abarth :friendly_wink: and the second is the size (slightly larger than a Miata). That means the odds of me being comfortable in it (I'm 6'4", long torso, and I look over the windshield of a Miata, can't get my legs in an S2000), are pretty slim. Also, I'm old enough that I don't want to feel like a suppository being slipped home every time I get in.....

The Abarth fits, and I'm dang-well going to enjoy it!

Cheers :friendly_wink:

MrFiat
12-05-2011, 07:13 PM
The Abarth fits, and I'm dang-well going to enjoy it!:friendly_wink:

Attaboy !

MrFiat
12-05-2011, 07:30 PM
Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of the Abarth, and still may end up with one. But, for those that LIKE to DRIVE, ignoring the 86 would be myopic.

Too many choices. Not enough money. You simply (?) have to decide what's best for your situation and go for it. I've gotta be honest here. If Suzuki were bringing the (replacement for) the GTi Swift back into the US, I would have a devil of a time deciding between it and the Abarth. But they're not, so, --whew! The good news is there are dealers and rental agencies whenever you want a short term "fix", so for the 86, I'll no doubt wheedle an extended test drive.

Reaperman
12-05-2011, 10:14 PM
If I'm honest with myself, I find the Scion to be a considerably more attractive vehicle than the Abarth, and I have an easier time with the 'suspected' price point when RWD is involved. Having a highly tuned Italian fireball with scorpions stuck all over it, does have a fair bit of appeal too. If anything, this might keep me from being a 'launch day' buyer of either, as I really want to try them both on.

That said, I know I fit into the Abarth--or at least I fit into the FIAT, where I may or may not fit into the FR-S. I certainly didn't fit into the Miata--there was a roof support bar pressing against the top of my skull, and I'm not especially tall. I am somewhat fat though, and I wonder if either dimension will cause me problems in the FR-S.

Speaking of price points, I remember Toyota used to just murder people with the pricing on their options--I wonder if Scion is any different.

geeded
12-05-2011, 11:58 PM
Speaking of price points, I remember Toyota used to just murder people with the pricing on their options--I wonder if Scion is any different.

Good question. If you were to decide on the Subaru version, it comes in two levels. Extremely well optioned and Extravagantly well optioned. Supposedly at $24 and $27k. Nothing left to add, BUT Subaru dealer might try and jack the price. OTOH, Scion has a "fixed" price so you'd just have to get in line and add the options one at a time.

I would imagine that a loaded Subaru would be cheaper than a loaded Toyota, assuming you get in line and refuse to pay a premium. Myself, I'd rather own a Subaru than a Scion, even if it's the same car. I'm just too dang old for a Scion. The same rules will apply with the Abarth, except we know the Abarth's options, just NOT how much they're planning on charging for the car, much less the options.

Such is life. You pays your money and takes your chances. I'm not hopeful on the size though. The Abarth went tall so I understand the room, but the 86 cars are only about 52" high. That's another point in the Abarth's favor. A much more graceful entrance and exit for a man of my height, age, and <ahem> portliness.

Cheers

Reaperman
12-27-2011, 05:34 PM
I don't know if anybody here pays too much attention to the video game world, but the 2012 Toyota version of this car hit Gran Turismo 5 a couple weeks ago as a free inclusion with the current patch. I finally drug the wheel out to give it a spin over the weekend. I highly recommend anybody with the game give it a shot.

I hope the in-game engine sound is not representative of the real deal, but it seemed to handle well.
There's no Abarth in the game to compare it to, but I built up a 500 Lounge to roughly the spec trying for some type of comparison. Lap times were really close, but even with a generic "sport suspension," the Lounge still pretty much cornered like a front wheel drive car creating some scary moments when the road got tight.

Itgb
12-27-2011, 06:56 PM
I will definitely be cross shopping these cars when they come out next year. I sat in the Abarth at the LA auto show and it was fantastic. Only drawbacks for me are rear seating space and the small gas tank(10.5g). The BRZ STI concept was also there in it's beautiful WRC blue color and left me drooling. The FR-S/BRZ is going to have the same rear seating issue, but at least it has a 13.2g tank. Guess I will just be patiently waiting for pricing and reviews early next year before making any decisions.

RE: GT5 I just downloaded the patch and will check out the FT-86. Too bad there's no Abarth in the game, but I will probably do the same as you did and build up a normal 500 as close as possible.

grapefish
12-27-2011, 07:58 PM
EDIT: Whoops, got my figures wrong. =)

I have no doubt that [the BRZ] will be a blast to drive. As fun/funky as the 500? Well, that remains to be seen.

a2cpc
01-05-2012, 11:38 AM
Let me say this first. I am a Subaru guy. I have had 5 in the last 10 years and loved all but one, and I liked that one. That being said the Abarth looks like it could be great fun to drive and I expect to test drive one as soon as I can find one to do so. As far as the FRS/BRZ go, I will drive one of those too. The levels of the BRZ Subaru is selling will drive many to the Toyota verion of the cars. If I am buying a car like that, I want max performance and few frills. I am 60 years old and the low slung seating of the BRZ doesn't appeal to me, but I am not who they are marketing to either. Personally, I think Subaru built this car to make money off of Toyota and to get some of their technology to use in their upcoming WRX/STI due out in 2013/14. I am waiting to see what that brings before I buy anything new. The Abarth is at the top of the list and in a couple of years should be improved.

geeded
01-05-2012, 07:02 PM
If I am buying a car like that, I want max performance and few frills. I am 60 years old and the low slung seating of the BRZ doesn't appeal to me, but I am not who they are marketing to either. Personally, I think Subaru built this car to make money off of Toyota and to get some of their technology to use in their upcoming WRX/STI due out in 2013/14.


Yeah, Subaru makes it VERY clear that the car was engineered by them and Toyota only had a hand in the styling. I'm a little North of your age, and after decades containing a variety of MGB's, a Triumph TR3, TR6, an Austin Healy 100/6. heck, even a Nash Metropolitan convertible in the way back (cost me $125), dropping down into a car is a whole lot easier than levering myself out.

The magazines say that the 500's seating position is too high... but that is either a negative OR a positive, depending on the buyer. Our MINI is not too bad but the Abarth will be even more comfortable...to me at least.

After lurking on a few of the 86's forums, I am now certain that their main buyer (if they have the money), is a 20-something with bad grammar, poor manners, and someone who does NOT know the difference between to, too, two, or there, their, they're, etc or seem to care. Drives me nuts...but that's a personal problem...those dang young whipersnapers! :) I feel much more at home here and with the Abarth. The attributes of the Abarth are somewhat lost on the young I'm afraid...unless, of course, they saw the Seduction commercial...Whoa, Mamma, my kinda car.... "I shall call her either Gina or Sophia".:encouragement:

Cheers

Bladecutter
01-06-2012, 03:57 PM
I look forward to the Scion/Subaru arriving at the same time as the Abarth.

Currently, I drive an RX-8, that is very stylish, interior and exterior, and has fantastic driving feel and dynamics.
The Scion Subaru clones should be interesting to see how they compare against my RX-8 in regards to driving dynamics, interior quality, and road feel.

I know gas mileage will be better, because I don't think its actually possible for it to be worse than the RX-8, short of being a Maserati Gran Turismo.

BC.

Reaperman
01-06-2012, 05:10 PM
After lurking on a few of the 86's forums, I am now certain that their main buyer ...
This 'image problem' actually kept me away from even trying out an s2000--which otherwise always looked to be a pretty slick car.

Personally, I'm leaning more toward BRZ/FRS than the Abarth these days, but maybe a visit to a Scion forum will change that for me.

a2cpc
01-07-2012, 09:30 AM
The magazines say that the 500's seating position is too high... but that is either a negative OR a positive, depending on the buyer. Our MINI is not too bad but the Abarth will be even more comfortable...to me at least.

The car I really learned how to drive in(survival driving) was a VW Bug, so sitting up high isn't a problem.



After lurking on a few of the 86's forums, I am now certain that their main buyer (if they have the money), is a 20-something with bad grammar, poor manners, and someone who does NOT know the difference between to, too, two, or there, their, they're, etc or seem to care. Drives me nuts...but that's a personal problem...those dang young whipersnapers! :) I feel much more at home here and with the Abarth. The attributes of the Abarth are somewhat lost on the young I'm afraid...unless, of course, they saw the Seduction commercial...Whoa, Mamma, my kinda car.... "I shall call her either Gina or Sophia".:encouragement:
Cheers

Since I have the heavy Subaru background I see/hear many present Subaru owners looking at it this way...The Scion will be what the " 20-something with bad grammar, poor manners, and someone who does NOT know the difference between to, too, two, or there, their, they're, etc or seem to care." types buy. The better appointed, more mature, Subaru seems to want to attract current Subaru owners and the same type of folks that bought the WRX when it was introduced in 2002, the younger(25 -30ish) professional.

Every Subaru Person I know that has driven a 500 loves them! As I have said before, I want to know what people's Winter/Snow driving impressions are.

buzzny
01-07-2012, 09:52 AM
Every Subaru Person I know that has driven a 500 loves them! As I have said before, I want to know what people's Winter/Snow driving impressions are.
I too have notice that Subaru owners are either looking at buying or have already bought a 500 or are considering an Abarth. '06 Baja XT Limited & '09 Forester XT Limited owner. I have 500C Lounge and am considering an Abarth but I have decided to wait to see what other Abarths may follow.
As far as winter driving for me I park the 500 if there is rain or snow but have driven it where there was severe ice and some snow on the road. I was pleased and felt safe in regards to how it handled and responded.

SeaDawg
01-07-2012, 10:35 AM
As far as winter driving for me I park the 500 if there is rain or snow but have driven it where there was severe ice and some snow on the road. I was pleased and felt safe in regards to how it handled and responded.

The www.500fans.com (http://www.500fans.com) 500 owners in Norway and Finland would probably get a good snicker out of parking the car when it rains or snows.:onthego:

buzzny
01-07-2012, 11:44 AM
The www.500fans.com (http://www.500fans.com) 500 owners in Norway and Finland would probably get a good snicker out of parking the car when it rains or snows.:onthego:

Hea,hea... Yea, I know. Since I have some AWD vehicles to drive in those conditions, might as well pamper the other ones. The BIG problem with driving various vehicles all the time is the configurations of wipers, sport modes, etc.. are all different and I make mistakes doing something at 1st!

akp04
01-16-2012, 08:58 PM
That's funny. I too own a Subaru, and bought my 500 tonight! I am keeping the Subaru for three reasons- trips to Home Depot, hauling mutts and cats :), and of course, the one snowy day we *might* get in Southeastern Virginia each year.

buzzny
01-16-2012, 09:31 PM
That's funny. I too own a Subaru, and bought my 500 tonight! I am keeping the Subaru for three reasons- trips to Home Depot, hauling mutts and cats :), and of course, the one snowy day we *might* get in Southeastern Virginia each year.

I can see it now '4 out of 5 Subaru owners prefer Fiat 500's' Ha-ha!!
Welcome to the forum akp04!

Fiat500USA
01-17-2012, 12:31 AM
That's funny. I too own a Subaru, and bought my 500 tonight! I am keeping the Subaru for three reasons- trips to Home Depot, hauling mutts and cats :), and of course, the one snowy day we *might* get in Southeastern Virginia each year.


Welcome aboard!