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Thad
09-21-2011, 07:57 PM
I have it through the pipeline that the first Abarth version will hit the streets for delivery in Feb. 2012. It will have the 5speed that we are seeing in the other cars. The reason for the 5 speed is, as Chris has explained here, about clearance to accommodate the additional front impact frame rails for USA. There isn't enough clearance for the 6 speed right now. It will have 130HP. There may be other Abarth versions coming later like the EsseEsse and the 695 with more HP. No word yet on pricing.

-Thad

PFVA63
09-21-2011, 08:08 PM
Hi,

Thanks for the update.

Regards

Pat

geeded
09-22-2011, 03:55 PM
5-spd, that's fine, I was expecting that.... but 130 hp? Less than the Euro version, and ours with the multi-aire engine that is supposedly at least 10% more powerful (meaning 148 minimum from the Euro) and efficient than the A500 engine? Surprising, ... actually shocking. Is FIAT trying to fail? 150 hp is the minimum that is STILL expected with fingers-crossed for over 160. Driving around in a "hot" hatchback with 130 hp and getting smoked by a stock Civic will make this (if true), a laughing-stock... a poseur's car.

Giving this info as gospel, I see a price point $2000 bucks over the price of the Sport. Anything higher and I see a bunch sitting on the lot. A zero to sixty of maybe 8 1/2 seconds isn't going to create car lust in many people. That is the power that the normal 500 actually needs to compete, much less the "performance" version. That stock HP is low for a European hot box, much less here. The US is not a nation where the norm are 1.2 litre cars.

And yes I know there is already a well-established plug-in ECU that bumps the Euro to 160+ hp but that's for the FIRE engine not the multi-aire. Hopefully this is compatible. We'll see but this info is disappointing. Obviously, it is going to be a regular production model and not a halo car.

Hey, maybe they can get JLO to sing a song in it.... or that twinky, anorexic, metrosexual guy(?) in the 500 Gucci print ad. He can bring his pocketbook.

Bullydog
09-22-2011, 08:02 PM
Thanks for the info Thad.

After waiting with bated breath for what seems like a year, it's sad to hear that it will only initially be coming with 30 more HP than the regular 500. That's just 9hp more than the base MINI Cooper comes with? The Abarth badges will be for posers I guess. Sad, just sad...My interest in this car has dissolved.

SeaDawg
09-22-2011, 08:59 PM
I wondered how long it would be before the wailing and gnashing of teeth would be heard regarding the 130 horsepower figure...less than 24 hours!

Geez, and this is just on a RUMOR.

sjmst
09-22-2011, 09:48 PM
I wondered how long it would be before the wailing and gnashing of teeth would be heard regarding the 130 horsepower figure...less than 24 hours!

Geez, and this is just on a RUMOR.

A FIAT rep on Sunday at a Fiat studio event said 130 HP. I was there.

Fiat500USA
09-22-2011, 10:18 PM
... like the EsseEsse and the 695 with more HP. No word yet on pricing.

-Thad

Just like they do in Europe... and MINI and everyone else does. Power for those who want it and affordability for others.

We are still getting the drips and drabs, but here is a scenario that I wouldn't mind:

Lets assume the base Abarth has 135hp, in Europe the esseesse that gets you 160hp is 2550 euros = $3450.66. Well the reality is you can chip your car for $500 or less and easily exceed 160hp. That means buy a base car, spend a little and have the performance of the more expensive car.

However, I will say I am struggling to reconcile what I know with the 130hp figure. Things are still fluid and I'm keeping an open mind...

sjmst
09-22-2011, 10:20 PM
Just like they do in Europe... and MINI and everyone else does. Power for those who want it and affordability for others.

We are still getting the drips and drabs, but here is a scenario that I wouldn't mind:

Lets assume the base Abarth has 135hp, in Europe the esseesse that gets you 160hp is 2550 euros = $3450.66. Well the reality is you can chip your car for $500 or less and easily exceed 160hp. That means buy a base car, spend a little and have the performance of the more expensive car.

However, I will say I am struggling to reconcile what I know with the 130hp figure. Things are still fluid and I'm keeping an open mind...

Chris, can we get more HP out of our standard Sport engines?

Fiat500USA
09-23-2011, 12:01 AM
Chris, can we get more HP out of our standard Sport engines?

Personally, I would say yes.

However, that is a tough question to get an official answer for, at least from corporate, which brings me to this; to get a confirmation for the Abarth hp is extremely difficult. Info is top secret with legal consequences and careers at risk, so I don't have 100% faith in 130hp figure, especially when Europe has more. Could it be correct? Possibly.

The question is: would dealer staff be privy to top secret information and be allowed to freely state it ahead of corporate communications?

Let me tell you a story. Back in January, I was invited to the try out pre-production cars along with others in the media. There were a few groups of us spread over the course of a few weeks. To keep everything fair, we had an embargo date of when we all could publish our info. Common courtesy, etc. However, someone didn't abide by this and broke the trust of all involved. They published information.

Now, the corporate folks I ate dinner with are good people and there wasn't talk of retribution or stuff like that, but they were disappointed with this person. They didn't say it, but in my personal opinion, I can't imagine a person that violates this trust being welcomed back into the inner circles.

Why I tell this story is to show the difficulty in getting official figures and publishing them ahead of time and also the consequences of doing so. Maintaining trust and doing the right thing are paramount.

Like I said, the 130hp may be correct, but it seems they guard this stuff too closely to let dealer staff spill the beans to anyone.

PFVA63
09-23-2011, 01:31 AM
Thanks for the info Thad.

After waiting with bated breath for what seems like a year, it's sad to hear that it will only initially be coming with 30 more HP than the regular 500. That's just 9hp more than the base MINI Cooper comes with? The Abarth badges will be for posers I guess. Sad, just sad...My interest in this car has dissolved.

Hi,

I don't know. To me this might actually be good news, as it may mean that the baseline Abarth may give the extra HP that some people have been looking for at a reasonable cost, while leaving the door open for more advanced/more powerful though more costly versions coming out later, similar to how there seems to be a base 135 HP (or so) Abarth and the more powerful 160(+?) HP Essesse Abarth in Europe as well as even more expensive other versions as well.

Regards

Pat

lirandy
09-23-2011, 02:05 AM
I have it through the pipeline that the first Abarth version will hit the streets for delivery in Feb. 2012. It will have the 5speed that we are seeing in the other cars. The reason for the 5 speed is, as Chris has explained here, about clearance to accommodate the additional front impact frame rails for USA. There isn't enough clearance for the 6 speed right now. It will have 130HP. There may be other Abarth versions coming later like the EsseEsse and the 695 with more HP. No word yet on pricing.

-Thad

If this is true, it's both good and bad news to me. Bad news is that I will be a little disappointed for the Abarth (I guess most people feel the same too), but the good news is that I am loving my PE more

Bullydog
09-23-2011, 02:49 AM
I wondered how long it would be before the wailing and gnashing of teeth would be heard regarding the 130 horsepower figure...less than 24 hours!

Geez, and this is just on a RUMOR.

I wondered how long it would take before someone whined about my opinion. Less than an hour. Geez...

SeaDawg
09-23-2011, 03:12 AM
I wondered how long it would take before someone whined about my opinion. Less than an hour. Geez...

Don't flatter yourself BULLYdog. It was a general comment and you were just the closest time to when I posted it.

RLove
09-23-2011, 07:38 AM
Whining about whining....geez. :dread:

I posted days ago that Road and Track said the Abarth had 135 hp and got no comment....now it's big news? I'm not going to be disappointed until I see/hear/read what Fiat has planned. Surely they [Fiat] know that 135hp will be considered a laughable performance increase. In this market they can't compete without at least 175hp - 200hp.

cmj912
09-23-2011, 09:29 AM
Hi,

I don't know. To me this might actually be good news, as it may mean that the baseline Abarth may give the extra HP that some people have been looking for at a reasonable cost, while leaving the door open for more advanced/more powerful though more costly versions coming out later, similar to how there seems to be a base 135 HP (or so) Abarth and the more powerful 160(+?) HP Essesse Abarth in Europe as well as even more expensive other versions as well.

Regards

Pat

You can't keep all of the people happy all of the time. I would say that a rumored horsepower figure is just a number, and a rumored number for now at that.

The actual experience of how the USDM Abarth performs will be just that: the actual experience. An actual experience can only be had once a physical car is tested. I'd say there's no point in getting upset about how a car performs or doesn't performs that hasn't been shared with us yet.

I am sure that even those doing the teeth-gnashing will still visit a dealer to test-drive one when they come out.

It also doesn't surprise me at all that it wouldn't have the 160+ HP. It strikes me as conservative which seems in line with market prudence given that FIAT still doesn't even have a full line of cars here OR a complete year's worth of "we're totally up and running" sales to report.

Frankly I'm surprised and pleased that the models and special editions and coming so quickly in succession to one another now that they are underway.

dmvoss
09-23-2011, 10:15 AM
This has been out there for awhile.
Dale


Chrysler Media has released detailed information on two of the new engines they’re integrating into the 2010-2014 lineup, thanks to Fiat. We already know about the 100hp, 4 cylinder, 1.4 liter Multiair engine available in the base Fiat 500, but what’s truly exciting is the turbo version putting out a whopping 170hp (and 170 lb.-ft. of torque)! That’s 45 more horses than the European Abarth and even 10 more than the Esseesse! They don’t mention it in the press release, but with the Abarth confirmed for the US, it’s obvious this will be the engine being used to power it.

geeded
09-23-2011, 02:55 PM
I wondered how long it would be before the wailing and gnashing of teeth would be heard regarding the 130 horsepower figure...less than 24 hours!

Geez, and this is just on a RUMOR.

A FIAT rep is more than just a rumor. But, I was careful to say "if true", and added a few other caveats during my "wailing". I am under the assumption that perhaps someone at FIAT actually looks at, and perhaps reads, the sites devoted to their car and its progress. IF so, here goes.

It is absolutely fair to be upset at a HP number as diminutive as 130. That figure would be considered very low for a car that is certain to weigh more than the Euro version... as well as supposedly having the "better" engine with the latest technology.

The multi-aire is advertised to be 10% more powerful and economical than the FIRE engine used in the Euro A500. Using this as a baseline, the NA car, at the equivalent level of tuning as the Euro A500, would have around 148 hp which would probably give it the same level of performance as the lighter Euro car. Anything less than that would NOT be seen (by me at least) as being a serious effort.

I lived though the drought of the '70's and 80's and I do NOT want a car that is just another "tape & sticker" package. Been there, done that. I mean, the new Chevy Sonic comes equipped with either a std 4 or a tubo 4, both with 138 hp (turbo has more torque), and a 6-spd transmission. It's made here in the USA AND the turbo will sticker less than the 500 Sport. THAT is the climate and expectation of our market. I do NOT want FIAT to fail. I WANT an Abarth that will be seen as superior to the Sonic (surely) and a valid contender (even if slightly slower) to the MINI S , the GTI, Focus ST, etc. Coming online with 130 hp will not do that. Period.

I think that the possibility of an upgrade via the "esseesse" route is possible. MINI did something similar, BUT their normal MINI S was a decent, quick ride as delivered with over 160 hp (first gen, not second). I know, we have one. IF the Abarth is delivered with the bare minimum I believe it needs to compete, i.e. 150 hp (160 would be better), that still leaves an easy on-the-shelf esseesse upgrade to 180 using the multi-aire from the Alfa Romeo Mito.

Again, I WANT them to succeed but the marketing so far is so far....shall we say...... suspect, missing the mark, failing miserably? You choose. This opinion is assuming their advertising is actually aimed at people who do not just ride the Subway in NYC and/or are over the age of 18.

My opinion only and as always, YMMV

Fiat500USA
09-23-2011, 03:18 PM
A FIAT rep is more than just a rumor. But, I was careful to say "if true", and added a few other caveats during my "wailing". I am under the assumption that perhaps someone at FIAT actually looks at, and perhaps reads, the sites devoted to their car and its progress. IF so, here goes.

It is absolutely fair to be upset at a HP number as diminutive as 130. That figure would be considered very low for a car that is certain to weigh more than the Euro version... as well as supposedly having the "better" engine with the latest technology.

The multi-aire is advertised to be 10% more powerful and economical than the FIRE engine used in the Euro A500. Using this as a baseline, the NA car, at the equivalent level of tuning as the Euro A500, would have around 148 hp which would probably give it the same level of performance as the lighter Euro car. Anything less than that would NOT be seen (by me at least) as being a serious effort.

I lived though the drought of the '70's and 80's and I do NOT want a car that is just another "tape & sticker" package. Been there, done that. I mean, the new Chevy Sonic comes equipped with either a std 4 or a tubo 4, both with 138 hp (turbo has more torque), and a 6-spd transmission. It's made here in the USA AND the turbo will sticker less than the 500 Sport. THAT is the climate and expectation of our market. I do NOT want FIAT to fail. I WANT an Abarth that will be seen as superior to the Sonic (surely) and a valid contender (even if slightly slower) to the MINI S , the GTI, Focus ST, etc. Coming online with 130 hp will not do that. Period.

I think that the possibility of an upgrade via the "esseesse" route is possible. MINI did something similar, BUT their normal MINI S was a decent, quick ride as delivered with over 160 hp (first gen, not second). I know, we have one. IF the Abarth is delivered with the bare minimum I believe it needs to compete, i.e. 150 hp (160 would be better), that still leaves an easy on-the-shelf esseesse upgrade to 180 using the multi-aire from the Alfa Romeo Mito.

Again, I WANT them to succeed but the marketing so far is so far....shall we say...... suspect, missing the mark, failing miserably? You choose. This opinion is assuming their advertising is actually aimed at people who do not just ride the Subway in NYC and/or are over the age of 18.

My opinion only and as always, YMMV

I agree with you, this market needs horsepower and I think 150 is the minimum the car should have.

geeded
09-23-2011, 06:05 PM
I agree with you, this market needs horsepower and I think 150 is the minimum the car should have.

Thanks, Chris... I thought I was about to get put in my place ;)

Cheers

Fiat500USA
09-23-2011, 10:45 PM
Thanks, Chris... I thought I was about to get put in my place ;)

Cheers

LOL!

Here is something I wrote back in September, 2009:

"... The Fiat 500 Abarth currently with 135 bhp would not be sufficient to compete with the cars in its presumed price range (low to mid $20,000's). In this country, it's always been a horsepower race. The $21,950 Mini has 172 bhp, the $23,230 VW GTI has 200 bhp and the $22,740 Mazda Speed 3 has 263 bhp (of course if the Abarth came in under $20,000, 135 bhp would look better). We could speculate that the Abarth will use the 1.4 16v MultiAir Turbo unit out of the Alfa Romeo MiTo Quadrifoglio Verde that is rated at 170 bhp."

Read the whole article here (http://www.fiat500usa.com/2009/09/fiat-500-engine-technology.html)

Here is what has me scratching my head with the 135 HP; I've been told the US car has a LOT of performance and even more so than the Euro car. I'll just say this info is "straight from the horse's mouth" ;) , so I am confident in this. It is difficult for me to reconcile what I've been told with the 135HP. As far as a special HP version, well that makes sense.

Stick around, this is going to get interesting!

Felnus
09-24-2011, 08:09 AM
I have to wonder after reading through the speculation if the 130HP figure isn't a bit of targeted 'mis-information'. There have been a lot of rumors floating around of 170-180HP for the Abarth. What if Fiat has 150 to 160HP (a ton of fun in a 2300 pound car) on tap? The internet wags would be wailing "We didn't we get 170?!?!?!? This car sucks!" However, if the rumor mill is throwing around 130 to 135 and the actual number is 150-160...

geeded
09-24-2011, 03:40 PM
Here is what has me scratching my head with the 135 HP; I've been told the US car has a LOT of performance and even more so than the Euro car. I'll just say this info is "straight from the horse's mouth" ;) , so I am confident in this. It is difficult for me to reconcile what I've been told with the 135HP. As far as a special HP version, well that makes sense.

Stick around, this is going to get interesting!

Yeah, I was also somewhat bemused. I remember the earlier quotes of "hardcore" & "enthusiast's car" so that leaves a few options. Either this 130hp quote is incorrect (possible), the earlier info you've received is false (much less probable), or FIAT has no clue how to sell to the American public (I'm up in the air on this one).

As an old advertising saying so sagely put it concerning drivers here (paraphrasing): "You sell horsepower but drive torque". That's always (please forget the 70/80's) been the case in the US. Luckily the multi-aire turbo has a decent mid-range grunt. Given a decent amount of HP (let's say 155/160) for sales and max torque below 5500 rpm, they should do well.... especially since there will be a manual. :)

Oh, and I agree totally with your posting from 2009. You were spot-on and FIAT should take that to the bank.

Cheers

PFVA63
09-24-2011, 11:09 PM
Hi,

I don't really have any issues with anyone hoping for a bit more power for their car, but to be honest I can't help but wonder if we sometimes don't get caught up a bit too much by numbers. While I know I'm not a very fast driver, overall since I don't believe that I've ever revved the engine above about 3100rpm or gone faster than about 70mph, I doubt that I've likely ever really used more than about 1/2 the output of my engine anyway.

Realistically then though, I kind of wonder how much a difference 170hp )or more) vs 135hp would mean for most people?

Being a Naval Architecture/Marine Engineer I know that on a ship putting more and more power onboard isn't always a great thing. In the end you're adding extra cost, dragging along extra weight, increasing resistance, and likely running your engine at a lower (and likely/possibly less efficient) loading fraction resulting in worse performance over what may be its more typical operating conditions.

In general, I would kind of suspect that a car might be very similar. If you have the option between a turbocharged 130ish HP engine or a 170+HP turbocharged engine for a car, even if both engines have the same displacement, I'd expect the 170+HP setup to be more costly and complex and perhaps even a bit more "sensitive" to operation at part load operations (since driving 55-65 mph with a 170+HP engine would likely put you at a lower % load than driving 55-65mph with a 130ish HP engine). In addition the air inlets for a 170+HP engine likely would need to be bigger than what you might need for a 130ish HP engine possibly leading to more drag. (In fact I believe that some modern high efficiency cars can actually close off part of their grills at low power load to reduce this type drag and improve performance when using less than full power).

As such to me, I really wonder if more and more power is really all that useful for most.

Just some thoughts.

Regards

Pat

Chris
09-25-2011, 08:23 AM
Heh- if you have never rev'd over 3100 you may be about the most gentle FIAT driver in America. ;)

The 30% difference between 130 and 170 is significant.

A critical factor, though, for real enjoyment is torque. Should the Abarth have a lousy torque curve, that 170 still might not be a lot of fun.

MrFiat
09-25-2011, 09:46 AM
Hi,

I don't really have any issues with anyone hoping for a bit more power for their car, but to be honest I can't help but wonder if we sometimes don't get caught up a bit too much by numbers. While I know I'm not a very fast driver, overall since I don't believe that I've ever revved the engine above about 3100rpm or gone faster than about 70mph, I doubt that I've likely ever really used more than about 1/2 the output of my engine anyway.

Realistically then though, I kind of wonder how much a difference 170hp )or more) vs 135hp would mean for most people?

Being a Naval Architecture/Marine Engineer I know that on a ship putting more and more power onboard isn't always a great thing. In the end you're adding extra cost, dragging along extra weight, increasing resistance, and likely running your engine at a lower (and likely/possibly less efficient) loading fraction resulting in worse performance over what may be its more typical operating conditions.

In general, I would kind of suspect that a car might be very similar. If you have the option between a turbocharged 130ish HP engine or a 170+HP turbocharged engine for a car, even if both engines have the same displacement, I'd expect the 170+HP setup to be more costly and complex and perhaps even a bit more "sensitive" to operation at part load operations (since driving 55-65 mph with a 170+HP engine would likely put you at a lower % load than driving 55-65mph with a 130ish HP engine). In addition the air inlets for a 170+HP engine likely would need to be bigger than what you might need for a 130ish HP engine possibly leading to more drag. (In fact I believe that some modern high efficiency cars can actually close off part of their grills at low power load to reduce this type drag and improve performance when using less than full power).

As such to me, I really wonder if more and more power is really all that useful for most.

Just some thoughts.

Regards

Pat

Ahhh, at last we get to the heart of the matter. Very insightful comments indeed Pat, and technically true to be sure. Just my personal opinion, but what I think you may be missing is this: Abarth isn't for everyone. Never was. Most likely never will be. It's always been an enthusiasts car. Having owned my Abarth 750 Zagato for close to 50 years now, I can tell you two things: One, the car is Awesome! And two, that very seldom have I pushed the limits of the cars capability. (that's probably why it's still around today) But the point is, whenever I wanted to. I COULD! -- and with quite an adrenalin rush at that!
The Abarth reputation was one that was built at race tracks the world over. When an Abarth car entered a race, it usually won! It is a fact that Abarth has one of the best racing records in the business. The "Scorpione" was revered and respected by enthusiasts the world over and rightfully feared by its competitors.
The Abarth name carries with it a reputation to uphold and once it's gone, it would be difficult if not impossible to get it back. Us old guys still remember the rush of hearing an Abarth engine roar to life but because of the long absence, most Americans today have never had that pleasure. The new crop of car enthusiasts will get their first exposure to the brand and also no doubt learn of its history. As the old addage goes, " you never get a second chance to make a first impression." This holds true here. If todays new Abarth is not the adrenaline pumping "Little Giant Killer" of old, no one here in North America will take the car or the name seriously. I trust Fiat understands that. When push comes to shove, and the Mini Cooper in the next lane wants to see what the Abarth is made of, (and they will) it will find out to its cost that the Sting of the Scorpione is not something to take lightly. Macho perhaps, but that's what Abarth is all about.
So while you're absolutely right in what you've said, the idea of as much horsepower as possible in the new Abarth is as much an intrinsic issue as it is a practical one. Abarth has always tried to be (and usually succeeded in being) the little tough guy on the block that no one dared to mess with! I think most of us here have their fingers crossed that Fiat keeps upholding that image. I know I do.

small car lover
09-25-2011, 10:29 AM
A critical factor, though, for real enjoyment is torque. Should the Abarth have a lousy torque curve, that 170 still might not be a lot of fun.

I have read this often repeated statement many times and while there is some truth to it, I have a slightly different perspective. There are many low torque, higher hp motors that are VERY fun and conversely there are many high torque, lower hp motors that are not. Examples such as the Integra GSR, Integra Type R, Acura RSX, Civic Si, Celica GT-S, Honda S2000, Mazda Miata, Lotus Elise, well.... you get the picture, are all what I consider to be fun cars with relatively low torque. I can come up with many examples of vehicles that I consider boring that have high torque. A perfect examples are hybrids like the Prius or some diesels like the VW TDI. I personally have not found low pressure turbos particularly sporting in character (Volvo has been using small turbos to get max torque at a low rpm, but it's not a enjoyable by my taste).

I don't believe any one criteria determines or excludes a car being fun.

It terms of the Abarth, I have to believe the engineering team will deliver a fun, competitive vehicle. There is no reason to think otherwise based on the past history of Abarth, regardless of the final specific numbers. The closest thing we have to a official HP number is the Chrysler release already posted here (http://www.fiat500usa.com/2010/01/us-fiat-500-abarthhow-much-horsepower.html) in January. Until we get more official information from Chrysler/Fiat everything else is empty rumors (different car mags publish different numbers, one "inside" person says one thing, some other "inside" person says another).

In terms of numbers, I believe it is best to wait until the actual specifications are announced for the US Abarth later this year. I personally am not giving any weight to the rumors floating around. I'll stick with official information, and just be patient.

Chris
09-25-2011, 11:53 AM
^^ All fair points... when I said "lousy torque curve" I was being very specific. I did not mean "low torque = bad". I meant a bad application of torque relative to the car's power and RPM. All need to work in harmony.
I had a '91 Civic Si that was a great blend of torque v. revs whereas the current Si, IMO, is pretty awful in this regard.

All subjective of course.

small car lover
09-25-2011, 01:54 PM
^^ All fair points... when I said "lousy torque curve" I was being very specific. I did not mean "low torque = bad". I meant a bad application of torque relative to the car's power and RPM. All need to work in harmony.
I had a '91 Civic Si that was a great blend of torque v. revs whereas the current Si, IMO, is pretty awful in this regard.

All subjective of course.

Absolutely. I could not agree more.

PFVA63
09-25-2011, 05:19 PM
Ahhh, at last we get to the heart of the matter.... Just my personal opinion, but what I think you may be missing is this: Abarth isn't for everyone. Never was. Most likely never will be. It's always been an enthusiasts car. ....

Hi,

Thanks for the reply. I've heard that the Abarth is really meant as an enthusiast's car, and that makes a lot of sense to me. (I'm really only following news about it because I'm interested in seeing what Fiat and others can do with such small cars).

Though, on the other hand I recently read an article on the internet which suggested that for at least one dealership they've already taken about 77 pre-orders (http://www.autoweek.com/article/20110919/CARNEWS/110919882) on Abarths.

As such, it kind of makes me wonder if something similar to the baseline European Abarth (with 130-135HP?) might not make sense as a baseline tubocharged version of the 500 here in the US as well, with a more powerful version (along the lines of the European Abarth Essesse' 170+HP) also eventually being sold here, for those who are really looking for more of an enthusiasts car.

Just some thoughts.

Regards

Pat

geeded
09-26-2011, 03:14 PM
As the old addage goes, " you never get a second chance to make a first impression." This holds true here. If todays new Abarth is not the adrenaline pumping "Little Giant Killer" of old, no one here in North America will take the car or the name seriously. I trust Fiat understands that. When push comes to shove, and the Mini Cooper in the next lane wants to see what the Abarth is made of, (and they will) it will find out to its cost that the Sting of the Scorpione is not something to take lightly. Macho perhaps, but that's what Abarth is all about.
So while you're absolutely right in what you've said, the idea of as much horsepower as possible in the new Abarth is as much an intrinsic issue as it is a practical one. Abarth has always tried to be (and usually succeeded in being) the little tough guy on the block that no one dared to mess with! I think most of us here have their fingers crossed that Fiat keeps upholding that image. I know I do.

THIS. If any FIAT reps are reading this, please take this to your leader. FIAT NEEDS this car to be the Yin to the Yang of the JLo / Gucci blandness that has been served up lately. Use your racing heritage! As a man from France once said, "We will enjoy it" AND you will reap the benefits. Some testosterone is in dire need right about now.

sjmst
09-26-2011, 03:37 PM
Abarth needs to be a blast to drive. Not only cute. Not only novel. Not only stylish. Not only good if you really work and rev it. Straight out of the box from the tap FUN. FIAT will sell every one they can make if they make the enthusiast driver say HOLY SH%T! If not: flop. If they do that with 130 or 170 hp. or this or that torque, the bottom line is they MUST do it!

MrFiat
09-26-2011, 05:33 PM
Abarth needs to be a blast to drive. Not only cute. Not only novel. Not only stylish. Not only good if you really work and rev it. Straight out of the box from the tap FUN. FIAT will sell every one they can make if they make the enthusiast driver say HOLY SH%T! If not: flop. If they do that with 130 or 170 hp. or this or that torque, the bottom line is they MUST do it!

AMEN to that ! Here's the thing: Abarth is NOT a new brand. This car will be the resurrection of an OLD brand name. The name has a reputation for being "one blistering hot little car". Back in the day it was called "the little giant killer". There is no doubt that Fiat is relying on that reputation or they wouldn't have given this new model the Abarth name. Now they have to live up to it. Bottom line: Because of the Abarth name tag, expectations, even from the newbies will be very HIGH. And exactly as you say, anything less than a H*** S*** on the first ride and the new Abarth will likely be viewed as a failed attempt. I have to believe that Fiat understands this and has something very cool in store for us! We'll just have to wait and see ( and push and prod and even whine a lot just to get the point across ! lol :cheerful:)

PFVA63
09-26-2011, 10:19 PM
I guess alot of what has been posted above makes alot of sense. But since it seems like there may be a very high interest in the car I fear that some people are planning that if they buy an Abarth it may actually be their only car. As such, I guess there is just a bit of concern in the back of my mind that if the car is too temperamental (due to trying to pump too much HP out of the base engine with mods) or if it gives up too much in other areas (such as quirkier handling or worse capabilities away from the top end) then it actually may not be a "fun" car to everyone and that could also be seen as a negative to the car as well.

Also, since the base Abarths in Europe seem to be about 135HP or so it would seem to me that a similarly powered one over here doesn't seem to be contrary to the Abarth Vrand name reputation.

Just some thoughts.

Regards

Pat

boots11234
09-26-2011, 10:59 PM
HI! New to this forum.

I was just at the dealer today and he told me they expect the new abarth to have 170HP. Of course he couldn't guarantee that. I would just go with a Mini if it didn't have that kind of HP though.

KhalilWilliams
09-27-2011, 06:41 AM
HI! New to this forum.

I was just at the dealer today and he told me they expect the new abarth to have 170HP. Of course he couldn't guarantee that. I would just go with a Mini if it didn't have that kind of HP though.

Welcome to the forum! :)

Anyway, I myself am not so sure as to what horsepower figure they [FIAT North America] is genuinely looking to have for the 2012/13 500 Abarth, though I am hoping that they do the same for that car and cleverly adapt it for the American market in the same way they did the regular 500 and give it more power (i.e. 150-170+ HP). After all, they are resurrecting a serious Italian legend in the American marketplace, so I feel that they need to pull this car off well.

pchop
09-27-2011, 06:43 AM
170-180 HP = Abarth
130 HP = brand re-engineering

F500
09-27-2011, 07:25 AM
if all that is being said is correct, I would just go with the "standard" Abarth and buy a $500 chip. I would be concerned however as to how much HP the 5sp and clutch can handle. 130hp might be the max.........so maybe thats why we're not getting a 160hp version.

Fiat500USA
09-27-2011, 11:46 AM
170-180 HP = Abarth
130 HP = brand re-engineering

While I agree the US Abarth should have more HP in this market, I wouldn't go quite as far as categorizing a 130 HP version like that. Remember, that is what is in the original European car.

PFVA63
09-27-2011, 07:30 PM
... I would be concerned however as to how much HP the 5sp and clutch can handle. 130hp might be the max.........so maybe thats why we're not getting a 160hp version.

Hi,

I had kind of started to wonder the same thing. In general, I'm not trying to be contradictory or negative here, but rather in thinking about what the car might be like, and hearing conflicting reports on how it might be configured, its kind of got my wondering what the possible trade-offs and/or pros and cons of the different options might be. Unfotunately I'm not really that much of a car guy, but I do have a degree in Marine related stuff, so most of the questions that come up in my mind have been kind of based on my experiences in the marine field which may or may not really be all that applicable to cars.

In general, I'd suspect that any car, engine, drive train, etc probably has a bit of margin and ample safety factors etc when newly designed, which basically would allow for further upgrades in the future without the need for a complete redesign. (In marine diesel engines this is supposedly very typical, where a new engine will be conservatively rated and over time, as the manufacturer collects more real world data, conducts more tests, and has the chance to do more detailed analyses, they will often begin to re-rate the engine upward over time).

However, for a car like the 500 I wonder how much margin and factors of safety are in all the different components of the car, and whether Fiat is ready to make the leap from 101 HP straight to 170-180HP for the North American spec car directly, or if it might make more sense to do it in steps from 101 to 130ish to 170-180.

Overall, I'd suspect that even going from 101 to 130ish will require some changes to some components including different suspension, perhaps different breaks, and maybe even a new crankshaft, etc, but I do kind of wonder about other parts of the entire car. As you noted above there is the gearbox to consider, but what about perhaps any sort of camshafts, rods, belts, bearings, pumps, fans, cooling system components and the like? Beyond that, I guess that there could also be issues with even the welds, brackets and ties on the car itself. I wonder whether there will there will need to be any structural re-inforcements to the body, brackets and mounts to absorb any of the increased loads that you might expect from the car if the engine power has been increased by 30ish% or even 70-80%?

Also, I've even started to wonder about the wheels. I've already seen a couple posts (either here or on other similar boards) where some people have experienced damage to their alloy wheels potentially from potholes or similar obstacles. What then happens if we are now talking about increasing the power output of the car's engine by 30-80%? Will the wheels need to be different?

Also, I guess there is also the thought in the back of my mind about how the car may operate when not at full power. On a trip today I noticed I was doing about 60-65mph @ about 2500-2700rpms while going down the highway. Just doing a quick back of the envelope check, looking at power and torque curves that some have posted for the baseline engine suggests that at 2500-2700rpm the engine may be putting out just under half is max power of 101HP (lets say 48HP for the sake of discussion). For a 130HP car (neglecting any potential resistance increases from changes to the air inlets and spoilers, etc for the time being) if you still require about 48HP to do this 60-65mph that would suggest that you are only using about 37% of the engines rated max output. For a 180HP car this may be about 27%. I guess then the question comes up in my mind whether, if you are on a long road trip, would operating a turbo-charged engine at such a relatively low % load for a long period of time be detrimental to it?

Stuff like this does make me kind of wonder if a two step approach in increasing power may be a logical appraoch or not. In addition, if there are more overall changes to the car required to fully accomdate the overall impacts of a 170-180HP engine over what may be required to accomodate a 130ish HP engine, would a 170-180HP powered car end up being a fair bit more expensive than a lot of people have suggested that they are hoping the price of the car to be?

Anyway, I guess I'm just kind of thinking out load here, but I thought that I'd post my thoughts.

Regards

Pat

sjmst
09-27-2011, 07:43 PM
My dealer says the tranny is very stout and can easily handle 170 hp...or more.

smoove7410
09-27-2011, 10:50 PM
I'm not new to this game.....a rep is not a reliable source. This "rep" read about the European abarth and is quoting that figure, plain and simple. Car companies do not leak information to reps. Those pretty faces you see on the car stands...yeah, those are reps. Last one I talked too was Ms. Michigan and she wasn't very knowledgeable on anything with wheels. She could, however, recite a few paragraphs written for her about the newest concept. Dealers also do not know....you really think trusted information is given to these car salesmen, LOL?

Basically, don't worry.

MrFiat
09-28-2011, 09:56 AM
It's an Abarth ! 'nuff said? :loyal:

geeded
10-04-2011, 10:05 PM
"By the way, behind the scenes reports indicate the North American version of the 500 Abarth will offer even more performance than the Euro versions shown here. Stay tuned because this will be the hottest car debut of the year!"

Okay gang, the above was posted on the main page concerning the upcoming NA Abarth. The only two stock, FIAT offered models shown in the videos are the base A500 (135 HP) and the esseesse (165 HP) version. Soooooo, if our NA version is going have MORE performance than these two.... that leaves us to guess 1. How exactly "performance" is measured and 2. How much HP we're gonna get.

Given the above, I'm going to go with the good old USA definition of performance i.e. HP, and go with the original nearly year old post from Chrysler/FIAT.... 170 HP. Sure sounds better than 135.

Any other guesses? (Be sure to show your work)

By the way Chris, I loved watching that drive on the Nurburgring. Sweet.

Cheers

Chris
10-04-2011, 10:12 PM
There are already two threads on this same subject ;)

Fiat500USA
10-05-2011, 11:42 AM
"By the way, behind the scenes reports indicate the North American version of the 500 Abarth will offer even more performance than the Euro versions shown here. Stay tuned because this will be the hottest car debut of the year!"

Okay gang, the above was posted on the main page concerning the upcoming NA Abarth. The only two stock, FIAT offered models shown in the videos are the base A500 (135 HP) and the esseesse (165 HP) version. Soooooo, if our NA version is going have MORE performance than these two.... that leaves us to guess 1. How exactly "performance" is measured and 2. How much HP we're gonna get.

Given the above, I'm going to go with the good old USA definition of performance i.e. HP, and go with the original nearly year old post from Chrysler/FIAT.... 170 HP. Sure sounds better than 135.

Any other guesses? (Be sure to show your work)

By the way Chris, I loved watching that drive on the Nurburgring. Sweet.

Cheers


There are already two threads on this same subject ;)

I'll merge this with the other "rumors" post...

Fiat500USA
10-05-2011, 12:05 PM
"By the way, behind the scenes reports indicate the North American version of the 500 Abarth will offer even more performance than the Euro versions shown here. Stay tuned because this will be the hottest car debut of the year!"

Okay gang, the above was posted on the main page concerning the upcoming NA Abarth. The only two stock, FIAT offered models shown in the videos are the base A500 (135 HP) and the esseesse (165 HP) version. Soooooo, if our NA version is going have MORE performance than these two.... that leaves us to guess 1. How exactly "performance" is measured and 2. How much HP we're gonna get.

Given the above, I'm going to go with the good old USA definition of performance i.e. HP, and go with the original nearly year old post from Chrysler/FIAT.... 170 HP. Sure sounds better than 135.

Any other guesses? (Be sure to show your work)

By the way Chris, I loved watching that drive on the Nurburgring. Sweet.

Cheers

My feeling is that it would be able to lap the Nurburgring quicker than the Euro car.

It is just an "Angrier" car. ;)

I love the video, too. Good visual demonstration of how HP effects the lap time.

txdesign
10-05-2011, 10:04 PM
I'll be interested no matter how much hp the US Abarth has. I had a ball in my 84 Rabbit GTI which had all of 90 hp.

geeded
10-06-2011, 01:16 AM
My feeling is that it would be able to lap the Nurburgring quicker than the Euro car.

It is just an "Angrier" car. ;)

I love the video, too. Good visual demonstration of how HP effects the lap time.

So.... to be sure, is the "it" highlighted above our very own Abarth? Also, assuming yes, "Angrier" is a word that is making very happy that I'm second in line at my dealer for our forthcoming ankle biter. ;)

Fiat500USA
10-06-2011, 02:14 AM
So.... to be sure, is the "it" highlighted above our very own Abarth? Also, assuming yes, "Angrier" is a word that is making very happy that I'm second in line at my dealer for our forthcoming ankle biter. ;)

Yes, "it" is it ... err... our Abarth. "Angrier" as relayed to me by someone who should know...

geeded
10-06-2011, 01:04 PM
Yes, "it" is it ... err... our Abarth. "Angrier" as relayed to me by someone who should know...

Thanks... Now I'm going to close all the blinds and do my Happy Dance!.... This is something that should never be witnessed by any living creature.....

I love pizza
11-10-2011, 03:54 PM
Granted the dealers (studios) are often last to know, but I saw on another message board that some dealers are saying 170hp and $24,900 as the USA price. Could be a dealer pretending to be in the loop. Got a few more days to know for sure.

buzzny
11-10-2011, 04:53 PM
I visited my Studio yesterday and the manager has no info on specifications or actual availability date, bummer.

sjmst
11-10-2011, 05:15 PM
Granted the dealers (studios) are often last to know, but I saw on another message board that some dealers are saying 170hp and $24,900 as the USA price. Could be a dealer pretending to be in the loop. Got a few more days to know for sure.


I think this is right...

SeaDawg
11-10-2011, 06:52 PM
I think this is right...

+1

Fiat500USA
11-11-2011, 01:54 AM
All .... I ....... can ......... say................ somewhere between 150 - 170 hp ;)

blefevre
11-11-2011, 11:15 AM
Well let's hope that it's 169 then! :)

sjmst
11-11-2011, 12:52 PM
I guess 160!

MrFiat
11-11-2011, 01:37 PM
All .... I ....... can ......... say................ somewhere between 150 - 170 hp ;):hopelessness: All I can say is it's gotta be a real B**** having the answers and not being able to talk about them! Not an easy thing to do. "Attaboy" from the old guy for hanging tough, -- :loyal: -- especially when everyone here is so eager to know.:congratulatory:

5*10^2
11-11-2011, 11:54 PM
I am just reading all these rumours and thinking, didn't Chrysler media released a statement in 2010, that they are going to manufacture two 1.4L variants: 100hp and 170hp?

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/chrysler-group-llc-transforms-powertrain-strategy-80956822.html

So it has to be 170hp, no?

I sold my PE two months after owning it. The dealership is trying to make things up to me by putting my name on their Abarth list, supposedly, I am #1.

Whatever.:D

johnnyquest
11-12-2011, 01:26 AM
I'm interested to see what the Abarth will be, I mostly want to know what the price will be and what kind of fuel economy it gets. Actually, what I would love more than enchiladas on Christmas is for Fiat to put a 135 horse turbocharged engine in the current 500 sport coupe. It would be perfect for my needs/desires...a bit more power for pulling mountain hills but with a small enough hp bump to hopefully still get 36-38 mpg on the highway. Santa, please bring me this car and a plate of enchiladas. Thank you.

JQ

Fiat500USA
11-12-2011, 01:46 AM
I'm interested to see what the Abarth will be, I mostly want to know what the price will be and what kind of fuel economy it gets. Actually, what I would love more than enchiladas on Christmas is for Fiat to put a 135 horse turbocharged engine in the current 500 sport coupe. It would be perfect for my needs/desires...a bit more power for pulling mountain hills but with a small enough hp bump to hopefully still get 36-38 mpg on the highway. Santa, please bring me this car and a plate of enchiladas. Thank you.

JQ

Along with horsepower there are a tremendous amount of other upgrades needed in order to make the turbocharged car live a long life. After seeing these upgrades , I'd have to say the odds of them bolting a turbo onto the 500 Sport to make it an "economy" Abarth look slim.

I'll fill you in on all the upgrades next week when I get the OK. This car is Built...

sjmst
11-12-2011, 11:19 AM
This is just the next step FIAT needs.

Reaperman
11-12-2011, 11:51 AM
Granted the dealers (studios) are often last to know, but I saw on another message board that some dealers are saying 170hp and $24,900 as the USA price. Could be a dealer pretending to be in the loop. Got a few more days to know for sure.
I certainly hope not. That would put it over the MX-5, which gives me a real dilemma. In the UK the Abarth w/ esseesse kit still comes in a hair under a (very) base mx-5. I guess I've only got 4 days to wait before I see what kind of a dilemma I have.

SeaDawg
11-12-2011, 03:24 PM
Along with horsepower there are a tremendous amount of other upgrades needed in order to make the turbocharged car live a long life. After seeing these upgrades , I'd have to say the odds of them bolting a turbo onto the 500 Sport to make it an "economy" Abarth look slim.

I'll fill you in on all the upgrades next week when I get the OK. This car is Built...

I'm not one of those that equates HP with virility, but wouldn't it be much easier to use a NON intercooled turbo which wouldn't take so much underhood room (for an upgraded, shall we say, Super Sport). However, underhood is rather crowded on a standard 500 to say the least. I'm happy with the 1.4 liter my current sport has. In town it drives as well as the 2.2 liter in the HHR I traded in as well as driving fast enough out on the interstate.

Sounds like you have lots of tech details to divulge. That's GREAT as I'm much more interested in the upgrades that were done to support the added HP.

Felnus
11-12-2011, 05:47 PM
I could be very wrong but the $24900 price tag sounds a bit high. The photos on the internet showing the red Abarth seemed to show no other changes to the interior besides the obvious Abarth touches(boost gauge, seats, badges) versus a base Sport(manual AC, no Sirius radio, etc.). A seven thousand dollar jump for the Abarth interior,exterior, engine, exhaust and suspension pieces is a bit much. I could see $22900.

Reaperman
11-13-2011, 01:08 PM
Don't know the full extent of credibility, but this is from another forum I visit (a radio control forum). However a rumor thread is a rumor thread. I've known the guy for years, but it's still very secondhand info. Sounds too light too, but generally in line with what we've been talking about.


According to a report I read the other day, 160HP, 2100lbs. Essesse wheels come from the factory. Some sort of "upgrade" should bump output to just under 200.

A friend of mine (Chrysler Engineer), who is also a big Neon guy said they ride A LOT better with the 16" wheels vs the 17s. Apparently it's just an aesthetics thing.

Felnus
11-13-2011, 07:09 PM
Definitely too light. If anything, the Abarth should be a bit heavier than a Sport with the turbo and intercooler. Hopefully all this and more will be answered in three days.

fredfrey
11-14-2011, 04:27 PM
LOS ANGELES AUTO SHOW
Fiat's new Abarth model will offer 1.4-liter turbocharged engine


The Abarth will get an imported version of the 1.4-liter engine with turbocharging that will deliver 160 hp, compared to 101 hp for the standard 500 and 500C.
Bradford Wernle
Automotive News -- October 31, 2011 - 12:01 am ET
DETROIT -- Chrysler Group's Fiat brand will stage the global launch its sporty 2012 Fiat 500 Abarth model at the Los Angeles auto show in mid-November.
The Abarth model will feature the first turbocharged version of Fiat's 1.4-liter MultiAir engine. The show's press days are Nov. 16-17.
The Abarth will get an imported version of the 1.4-liter engine with turbocharging that will deliver 160 hp, compared to 101 hp for the standard 500 and 500C. Compared with the stock 500, the Abarth will come with a stiffer suspension, wider tires and performance-oriented exterior and interior design. The Abarth will be pitched against such competitors as the Mini Cooper S.
The Abarth will join the Fiat 500 and 500 Cabrio in Fiat's U.S. lineup. Dealers have been eagerly awaiting the sporty Abarth model, which will bring performance credibility to the Fiat brand.
High interest


The Abarth brand's history goes back to 1949
Some dealers have reported high interest in the Abarth model and some customers are putting money down in advance. There are currently 123 Fiat dealerships open nationwide and the company plans for a total of 150 by year-end.
Abarth is Fiat's performance brand. The brand's history goes back to 1949, when an Austrian-born motorcycle racer named Karl Abarth founded a company called Abarth & C,according to an Abarth history issued by Chrysler.
After a motorcycle crash nearly took his life in 1939, Abarth and a partner produced aftermarket performance products for production cars following World War II. They soon formed their company. Abarth put his expertise to use designing and manufacturing performance exhaust systems. In 1958, Abarth got a big break when Franklin D. Roosevelt Jr., son of the U.S. president, went to Italy and signed a deal to distribute Abarth products and vehicles in the U.S.
When the original Fiat 500 first came out in 1958, Abarth adapted the car for racing, jacking up the compression ratios, retuning the suspension and adding one of his performance exhaust systems. His tweaks doubled the horsepower from 13 to 26.
The ensuing race car, the Abarth 595, broke six international records and won 900 races by 1965. Abarth badged his race cars with a distinctive scorpion badge, chosen because his astrological sign was Scorpio.
An Abarth coffee
In Italy, the term Abarth entered the vernacular. Customers in cafes and restaurants would ask for an "Abarth coffee" when they wanted a strong coffee or a coffee with a shot of alcohol.
In 1971, Abarth was absorbed by Fiat Auto. The Abarth brand was relaunched in Europe in 2007, the same year Fiat resurrected the Fiat 500.
Karl Abarth died in 1979.

blefevre
11-14-2011, 05:30 PM
Well, I guess it's better then 135hp. Let's hope the price is set correctly then, or an optional "power pack".

sjmst
11-14-2011, 05:40 PM
Yep, 160.

Also the Dundee plant has laid off its workers as they don't need any 500 engines at the moment. There is a backlog of 184 unsold 500s in the US.

I would say not to worry.
Some things will happen to spur sales

1) The Abarth and its "halo" effect
2) Better marketing
3) More dealerships open
4) More owners telling their neighbors they love the car and that it got through the snow just fine.

einy
11-14-2011, 09:29 PM
The backlog of unsold 500's isn't 184 units, it's 184 days supply, with 130 dealerships currently open per Automotive News' article tonight. The dealership in Cincinnati area is showing 115 available on their lot right now per their website. I can only speculate that the dealer groups who put up considerable $$'s to build the mandatory design, stand-alone studios are saying "help! ... send me some other products to sell!". I think the Abarth will help, but VW doesn't exist on Golf's and GTI's alone, to draw a (weak, admittedly) parallel.

Scorpion
11-14-2011, 09:48 PM
Regarding price, I'm as eagerly awaiting the additional info on Wed. as much as anyone. But, there is a strong chance that Fiat will NOT announce pricing then.

Many times pricing is not announced at the production car reveals. Also, sometimes the manufacturers themselves are actually still determining what the MSRP is going to be up until the last minute.

fredfrey
11-15-2011, 10:05 AM
In regards to the above article that I posted; I believe there are some errors in it. Firstly stating the engine from the Abarth will be "an imported version" of the 500 multi-air". I doubt FIAT would do this as part of the agreement with the US Government was that the car partially be manufactured in the USA and since Detroit is making the standard motor, why not the Abrarth version too? Also, with the Euro so high right now, it can not be cost efective for FIAT to import euro motors. Guess will see soon enough.

txdesign
11-15-2011, 10:48 AM
The 500 is assembled in Toluca Mexico. Are you saying they are building the engines in the US and shipping them to Mexico?

buzzny
11-15-2011, 11:00 AM
The 500 is assembled in Toluca Mexico. Are you saying they are building the engines in the US and shipping them to Mexico?

Look at the window sticker on all North American 500/500c's. Engine=USA, Automatic Tranny= Japan, Assembly point = Mexico

Chris
11-15-2011, 11:44 AM
^Yup

sjmst
11-15-2011, 01:16 PM
The backlog of unsold 500's isn't 184 units, it's 184 days supply, .

Oh, sorry, thanks for the correction. Makes more sense.

fredfrey
11-15-2011, 08:52 PM
Yes, engines are from Detroit. Now why would FIAT import them from Italy for the Abarth as reported by the article above. Also, we standard transmission owners can be proud that at least part of our cars are truly Italian as the manual transmissions are made in Italy!

sjmst
11-15-2011, 08:54 PM
Yes, engines are from Detroit. Now why would FIAT import them from Italy for the Abarth as reported by the article above. Also, we standard transmission owners can be proud that at least part of our cars are truly Italian as the manual transmissions are made in Italy!

Werd. :friendly_wink:

Felnus
11-16-2011, 02:42 AM
The embargo must have lifted at midnight. The article is a bit snarky but plenty of info.

http://www.caranddriver.com/news/2012-fiat-500-abarth-news

txdesign
11-16-2011, 03:22 AM
And so the rumors are laid to rest: 160 hp. Now for the price...?

KhalilWilliams
11-16-2011, 07:44 AM
Yes, engines are from Detroit. Now why would FIAT import them from Italy for the Abarth as reported by the article above. Also, we standard transmission owners can be proud that at least part of our cars are truly Italian as the manual transmissions are made in Italy!
That is truly something interesting of the FIAT 500/500c/Abarth! I honestly did not know that the manual gearbox used for this car was made in Italy! :smug: