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View Full Version : When is the 50+mpg twinair .9ltr motor and 6sp MT coming over?



rmay635703
07-06-2011, 12:48 PM
Thus far the Fiat 500 although a neat little car, but has rather lackluster FE.

My current cobalt in the summer tops 50mpg highway, I should hope Fiat mans up and brings over the 6sp manual (not automated manual either) and both the Twinair 2 cylinder and the diesel.

I would be driving one today if the Naked variety with the .9 & 6sp was available here.

I also find it strange that Chrysler is surprized half of Fiat 500's are being sold with the Manual, afterall not all US citizens are handycaps needing an autotragic. I have a feeling there is pent up demand for manual transmission vehicles since most manufacturers have basically dis-allowed them in all but the most benign of cars.

Its refreshing to see a primarily manual transmission car being sold and I hope the trend continues.

I would love to see more euro spec cars coming over the lake, just hope I'm not dead before they make it.

Cheers
Ryan

joelgoodman
07-06-2011, 01:04 PM
Well the biggest issue is US government safety standards and the fact that virtually no "euro spec" cars can pass it. So even if we get a 6sp TwinAir, the car is going to have to be modified to meet US safety regulations. If you want a true euro spec car, move to Europe. You definitely won't see them in the States as-is.

panther76
07-06-2011, 01:09 PM
50 mpg in europe will not equate to that here.

the manual 500 is rated at 38 mpg highway. except the fxe (or whatever it was) version of the cobalt, cobalt is rated lower than the 500.

you are comparing what you get in a cobalt (not its epa, which im sure is mid 30's) with the epa number of the fiat....there is no logic in that comparison as the 500 can just as easily beat the epa numbers.

i have yet to get below 42.6 mpg in the 500, and that is not even all highway.

joelgoodman
07-06-2011, 02:57 PM
50 mpg in europe will not equate to that here.

Excellent point. The UK uses Imperial Gallon measurements. We certainly won't get 50 here.

rmay635703
07-06-2011, 03:59 PM
Excellent point. The UK uses Imperial Gallon measurements. We certainly won't get 50 here.

Actually the Euro spec 1.3 diesel is rated at 86mpg IMP which translates to 71mpg USA

The twinair is USA Rated 56mpg and is rated Euro 67mpg IMP highway

So no you are wrong but possibly not entirely because of the weight requirements over here.


Well the biggest issue is US government safety standards and the fact that virtually no "euro spec" cars can pass it. So even if we get a 6sp TwinAir, the car is going to have to be modified to meet US safety regulations. If you want a true euro spec car, move to Europe. You definitely won't see them in the States as-is.

LoL, you do know that that EXACT same excuse is used to explain why our cars can't be sold in Europe? They also use the same tired emissions lies to exclude our cars over there.

So, This is a huge myth, it is nearly impossible to FAIL US crash standards, if you have the bank you can have the car tested and put it on the roads regardless of its rating, whatever its rating is, it is what it is. Most manufacturers are afraid that a poor mark will mean a lot of wasted money because the consumer might backlash against a poor score.

Most of the changes that need to be made to sell a foreign car here have absolutely nothing to do with safety, they are typically all related to dimensional, weight, ride height, suspension type, paint types, fabric types, exhaust composition etc that are allowed or dis-allowed here. The really sad part is emissions, we limit NOX everywhere in the US which disallows lean burn (even though its levels would not affect 99% of the areas in the US) and Europe limits the types of emissions (particulate, CO2/CO) that our cars make more of due to the bigger/richer running engines we have here. So our cars are too dirty to pass "their" emissions and their are too dirty to pass here? I don't think you can have it both ways?

Also Euro crash specs EXCEED US standards and have for over a decade, our standards are different and by being different it means the company has to pay millions to our government to test a unique car varient. Also because we like to vary our minimum ride height, min winshield height, viewing angles etc from year to year it requires foreign manufacturers to redesign their cars to meet for the most part MEANINGLESS requirements that have no bearing on safety, the worst of these is the point of origin and material composition BS. No you can't use that fabric but you can use this dampening material. (yes I work in the auto industry)

Our government makes the laws to exclude foreign cars/manufacturers as much as possible, absolutely nothing to do with safety at all, everything to do with the almighty dollar and special interests.

It is LONG past time for us to commonize our laws with europe so our cars can go there and theirs can come back here.

Unfortuneately both sides are afraid a big interest might loose some money, the sad part is our own american manufacturers have many innovative designs in europe that far exceed the domestics they sell here in many regards, but they aren't allowed because of a line on a piece of paper, its not safety or emissions. Heck most of the laws governing car manufacturers are made by the car manufacturers, the individuals that are bought and paid for in gov. write them verbatum following industry guidelines, mainly for the purpose of keeping the US market more isolated.

I would be glad if the gray market laws were repealed just to get some euro spec american car goodness, doing that might force the auto manufacturers here to offer what we aren't allowed to have.

Read the laws and understand why they are there and what special interest they serve.

I might have to figure out how to buy a Fiat 500 glider (US) and mate the diesel in there from a Euro bone yard if Fiat isn't willing to payola the right people.

The motor is fairly small so the import cost might not be too bad.

rmay635703
07-06-2011, 04:05 PM
Excellent point. The UK uses Imperial Gallon measurements. We certainly won't get 50 here.

Actually the Euro spec 1.3 diesel is rated at 86mpg IMP which translates to 71mpg USA

The twinair is USA Rated 56mpg and is rated Euro 67mpg IMP highway

So no you are wrong but possibly not entirely because of the weight requirements over here.


Well the biggest issue is US government safety standards and the fact that virtually no "euro spec" cars can pass it. So even if we get a 6sp TwinAir, the car is going to have to be modified to meet US safety regulations. If you want a true euro spec car, move to Europe. You definitely won't see them in the States as-is.

LoL, you do know that that EXACT same excuse is used to explain why our cars can't be sold in Europe? They also use the same tired emissions lies to exclude our cars over there.

So, This is a huge myth, it is nearly impossible to FAIL US crash standards, if you have the bank you can have the car tested and put it on the roads regardless of its rating, whatever its rating is, it is what it is. Most manufacturers are afraid that a poor mark will mean a lot of wasted money because the consumer might backlash against a poor score.

Most of the changes that need to be made to sell a foreign car here have absolutely nothing to do with safety, they are typically all related to dimensional, weight, ride height, suspension type, paint types, fabric types, exhaust composition etc that are allowed or dis-allowed here. The really sad part is emissions, we limit NOX everywhere in the US which disallows lean burn (even though its levels would not affect 99% of the areas in the US) and Europe limits the types of emissions (particulate, CO2/CO) that our cars make more of due to the bigger/richer running engines we have here. So our cars are too dirty to pass "their" emissions and their are too dirty to pass here? I don't think you can have it both ways?

Also Euro crash specs EXCEED US standards and have for over a decade, our standards are different and by being different it means the company has to pay millions to our government to test a unique car varient. Also because we like to vary our minimum ride height, min winshield height, viewing angles etc from year to year it requires foreign manufacturers to redesign their cars to meet for the most part MEANINGLESS requirements that have no bearing on safety, the worst of these is the point of origin and material composition BS. No you can't use that fabric but you can use this dampening material. (yes I work in the auto industry)

Our government makes the laws to exclude foreign cars/manufacturers as much as possible, absolutely nothing to do with safety at all, everything to do with the almighty dollar and special interests.

It is LONG past time for us to commonize our laws with europe so our cars can go there and theirs can come back here.

Unfortuneately both sides are afraid a big interest might loose some money, the sad part is our own american manufacturers have many innovative designs in europe that far exceed the domestics they sell here in many regards, but they aren't allowed because of a line on a piece of paper, its not safety or emissions. Heck most of the laws governing car manufacturers are made by the car manufacturers, the individuals that are bought and paid for in gov. write them verbatum following industry guidelines, mainly for the purpose of keeping the US market more isolated.

I would be glad if the gray market laws were repealed just to get some euro spec american car goodness, doing that might force the auto manufacturers here to offer what we aren't allowed to have.

Read the laws and understand why they are there and what special interest they serve.

I might have to figure out how to buy a Fiat 500 glider (US) and mate the diesel in there from a Euro bone yard if Fiat isn't willing to payola the right people.

The motor is fairly small so the import cost might not be too bad.

F500
07-06-2011, 04:47 PM
Thus far the Fiat 500 although a neat little car, but has rather lackluster FE.

My current cobalt in the summer tops 50mpg highway....

please keep in mind that its NOT all about "FE". the FUN of driving the 500 is worth a few MPG's to me. nothing personal, but I'll take a 500 over a Cobalt (just an updated Cavalier in my mind) any day. in fact, my wifes Prius gets 50+ and while it's a great car and has lots of displays to keep you busy, it's not FUN to drive. the 500 on the other hand.........WOO HOO!!!! :D

ciddyguy
07-06-2011, 09:27 PM
Actually the Euro spec 1.3 diesel is rated at 86mpg IMP which translates to 71mpg USA

The twinair is USA Rated 56mpg and is rated Euro 67mpg IMP highway

So no you are wrong but possibly not entirely because of the weight requirements over here.



LoL, you do know that that EXACT same excuse is used to explain why our cars can't be sold in Europe? They also use the same tired emissions lies to exclude our cars over there.

So, This is a huge myth, it is nearly impossible to FAIL US crash standards, if you have the bank you can have the car tested and put it on the roads regardless of its rating, whatever its rating is, it is what it is. Most manufacturers are afraid that a poor mark will mean a lot of wasted money because the consumer might backlash against a poor score.

Most of the changes that need to be made to sell a foreign car here have absolutely nothing to do with safety, they are typically all related to dimensional, weight, ride height, suspension type, paint types, fabric types, exhaust composition etc that are allowed or dis-allowed here. The really sad part is emissions, we limit NOX everywhere in the US which disallows lean burn (even though its levels would not affect 99% of the areas in the US) and Europe limits the types of emissions (particulate, CO2/CO) that our cars make more of due to the bigger/richer running engines we have here. So our cars are too dirty to pass "their" emissions and their are too dirty to pass here? I don't think you can have it both ways?

Also Euro crash specs EXCEED US standards and have for over a decade, our standards are different and by being different it means the company has to pay millions to our government to test a unique car varient. Also because we like to vary our minimum ride height, min winshield height, viewing angles etc from year to year it requires foreign manufacturers to redesign their cars to meet for the most part MEANINGLESS requirements that have no bearing on safety, the worst of these is the point of origin and material composition BS. No you can't use that fabric but you can use this dampening material. (yes I work in the auto industry)

Our government makes the laws to exclude foreign cars/manufacturers as much as possible, absolutely nothing to do with safety at all, everything to do with the almighty dollar and special interests.

It is LONG past time for us to commonize our laws with europe so our cars can go there and theirs can come back here.

Unfortuneately both sides are afraid a big interest might loose some money, the sad part is our own american manufacturers have many innovative designs in europe that far exceed the domestics they sell here in many regards, but they aren't allowed because of a line on a piece of paper, its not safety or emissions. Heck most of the laws governing car manufacturers are made by the car manufacturers, the individuals that are bought and paid for in gov. write them verbatum following industry guidelines, mainly for the purpose of keeping the US market more isolated.

I would be glad if the gray market laws were repealed just to get some euro spec american car goodness, doing that might force the auto manufacturers here to offer what we aren't allowed to have.

Read the laws and understand why they are there and what special interest they serve.

I might have to figure out how to buy a Fiat 500 glider (US) and mate the diesel in there from a Euro bone yard if Fiat isn't willing to payola the right people.

The motor is fairly small so the import cost might not be too bad.

I don't completely buy your second argument here as the specs for Europe and the US while similar are NOT the same as they emphasize different things but the overall results are VERY similar.

For starters, when Fiat went to modify the 500 for the US, they were REQUIRED to add more stress load points in the front, rear and beneath the car to improve crumple zones and I think they had to reinforce the roof for further roller protection and we got the MultiAir 1.4L motor while Europe makes do with the regular 16V version of the same. Also, emissions specifications while similar again, are NOT the same as here so some mods are required here to make the motor pass US emissions laws - especially in low emissions states such as Washington, Oregon and California and there are other changes that don't have anything to do with safety, but enhance driving comfort and we do MUCH more freeway driving here than in much of Europe amongst other factors.

I'm a little surprised that at least half of the Fiats sold so far are manuals. The reason we don't have the 6spd manual as yet has to do with the reinforcements required here and thus the 6spd would not fit as they HAD been planning on bringing that over as well. When the car gets refreshed, I'm sure it'll have it then. No one knows if the TwinAir will be available here but one thing to note on the TwinAir is that if you drive it hard, it's not as economical as it could be but go easy on the pedal and it'll reward with great gas mileage and still be fun.

panther76
07-07-2011, 12:08 AM
Actually the Euro spec 1.3 diesel is rated at 86mpg IMP which translates to 71mpg USA

The twinair is USA Rated 56mpg and is rated Euro 67mpg IMP highway

So no you are wrong but possibly not entirely because of the weight requirements over here.



.

it still doesnt translate because they are using different (read: more lenient) test cycles.

Chris
07-07-2011, 06:50 AM
As to "surprised about stick"... everybody is surprised... stick is a dying breed across all lines... speaking generally, no line sells such a high percentage of sticks anymore so yes, this is "surprising".


What REALLY would have been surprising was for Fiat to bring the versions you ask for, which would, by most measures would likely be least popular with American drivers, here from the get-go.

We're a couple months in to a relaunch in a country after 27 years... by an American company gasping on vapors... give them time to see what sticks.

Chris
07-07-2011, 06:55 AM
Actually the Euro spec 1.3 diesel is rated at 86mpg IMP which translates to 71mpg USA



Where is it rated that high? This, from Fiat last year:

PRESS RELEASE

NEW 500 MULTIJET: MORE POWER AND PERFORMANCE; LOWER FUEL CONSUMPTION AND EMISSIONS

The Fiat 500 has been the forerunner of many new technologies and features such as Start&Stop, along with eco:Drive, Blue&Me, and Euro 5 engines. Now, Fiat's popular range of city cars is to be further enhanced with the introduction of a powerful new 1.3-litre 16-valve MultiJet diesel engine.

The range's out-going 75bhp MultiJet unit is being replaced with a more potent but also more environmentally-friendly 95bhp 'MultiJet II' version, which not only boasts improved mpg and CO2 emissions figures, but also incorporates Fiat's acclaimed Start&Stop technology to further reduce fuel consumption when driving around town. The engine will become the most powerful diesel unit available in the A segment.

The new unit introduces an innovative variable geometry turbocharger that enables it to deliver 95bhp at 4000rpm and 200Nm of torque at only 1500rpm. This output significantly improves the car's performance, taking its top speed to 112mph (from 103mph) and reducing the 0-62mph acceleration time from 12.5 to just 10.7 seconds.

Fuel consumption is improved from 67.3mpg to 72.4mpg in the combined cycle, while emissions drop to 104g/km of CO2 (from 110g/km). Together with Start&Stop, the engine also includes a DPF particulate filter for improved emissions efficiency and effectiveness from a cold start.

"This remarkable new diesel engine will add even greater excitement to the fantastic 500 range, but without adding to the cost of ownership," says Andrew Humberstone, managing director, Fiat Group Automobiles UK Ltd. "In fact, with greater fuel economy and lower emissions, everyone will benefit from this new variant."

F500
07-07-2011, 07:24 AM
Fuel consumption is improved from 67.3mpg to 72.4mpg in the combined cycle, while emissions drop to 104g/km of CO2 (from 110g/km). Together with Start&Stop, the engine also includes a DPF particulate filter for improved emissions efficiency and effectiveness from a cold start.

"combined cycle" meaning city AND highway. I would guess that the 86 mpg mentioned was for 'highway' only.

cmj912
07-07-2011, 01:25 PM
That's got me to wondering about Start/Stop technology. We haven't seen any of that yet from any maker selling in the US, have we?
Not that I'm complaining that Fiat should bring it here, I'm just saying. :D
I completely agree that they aren't going to offer anything and everything from the get-go, nor should they = just doesn't seem like good business.

However, for fans of small cars, things like these are often matters of importance - economy, innovation, performance. I was very interested in recent articles that Fiat Group rebadges the Chrysler 300 as the Lancia Thema (again with engine choices that would not be offered here) and the Dodge Journey as the Fiat Freemont (with the Multijet diesel). But what you won't see is the Chrysler version with the Lancia's engine or the Dodge with the Fiat engine. Not yet, anyway. If fuel prices remain rising/volatile perhaps they will be more willing to invest in technology giving more choice and better economy. Not everyone wants a Prius :)

rmay635703
07-07-2011, 06:35 PM
I don't completely buy your second argument here as the specs for Europe and the US while similar are NOT the same as they emphasize different things but the overall results are VERY similar.

For starters, when Fiat went to modify the 500 for the US, they were REQUIRED to add more stress load points in the front, rear and beneath the car to improve crumple zones and I think they had to reinforce the roof for further roller protection and we got the MultiAir 1.4L motor while Europe makes do with the regular 16V version of the same. Also, emissions specifications while similar again, are NOT the same as here so some mods are required here to make the motor pass US emissions laws - especially in low emissions states such as Washington, Oregon and California and there are other changes that don't have anything to do with safety, but enhance driving comfort and we do MUCH more freeway driving here than in much of Europe amongst other factors.


I can understand the fun part but... My subaru 360 is fun to drive despite having a 25hp motor and getting 50-70mpg real world, sadly its so old now I am having trouble getting the exhaust back together. You can have fun and get good fuel economy.

Again the required stress points are NOT based on how the car crashes and have little to do with the test, they are dictated by our rules, there is a lot that goes into how a car crashes and having a "we require X" in every car does not necessarily improve anything and it limits innovation because it may be possible to build a car using a different building technique but getting the same road worthyness with being commanded by a rule that you must use "this".

Also in Europe many of our cars would not pass because of the reinforcements, they require adaptive crumple, adaptive seatbelts and adaptive airbags which do more to reduce the force exerted on the body during crashes. Few if any American made cars have adaptive crumple, seatbelt and airbag systems. Some of the safe-est cars in the world are Euro only microcars because of these technologies, however Europe is definately focused on reducing the injuries from the most common (in europe) accidents/collisions and are less focused on 75mph head ons that the US gov is more fixated on.

The reality is we need to get the laws changed and the cars should stand on their ratings not on hypotheticals that run rampant now, there is proof that NoX based emissions in non-megacenter environments actually reduces the affects of other types of pollution and reduces global warming effects.

Our current emission laws are a joke and have no basis in science, the main way of reducing emissions is by increasing fuel economy, banning certain technologies that increase fuel economy because our law dictates a certain percentage of this or that in the exhaust, as opposed to how much total the car makes is just plain stupid.

Europe in this regard is way ahead of us. Limits are based on how much you produce, not how many percent do you have.

Even with more lienient test cycles (aka slower speeds), it typically doesn't account for more than 15% anyway but how much it affects the car vrs our technique has to do with
1. weight.
2. aero.

Cars that have OK Aero and are light typically get very similar FE between the euro and US measurements.

Anyway I am hoping Fiat brings over some gas sipping options, not all of us just buy for fun.

Cheers
Ryan

rmay635703
07-07-2011, 06:44 PM
That's got me to wondering about Start/Stop technology. We haven't seen any of that yet from any maker selling in the US, have we?
Not that I'm complaining that Fiat should bring it here, I'm just saying. :D
I completely agree that they aren't going to offer anything and everything from the get-go, nor should they = just doesn't seem like good business.

Not yet, anyway. If fuel prices remain rising/volatile perhaps they will be more willing to invest in technology giving more choice and better economy. Not everyone wants a Prius :)

They should offer at least 2 motor platform offerings from their existing lineup.

And I ditto the start stop technology, I first read about it in the mid 80's.

I have been using a start stop technology of my own, if my car isn't moving the motor isn't running, its worked for the last 15yrs flawlessly.

My subaru has a kill switch and the motor isn't running if the car isn't accelerating, since it has manual steering and manual non-power brakes it drives the same with or without power.

Sadly the 1970's start stop technology found on many motor cycles and my old car was too advanced for all modern cars.

Chris
07-07-2011, 07:52 PM
That's got me to wondering about Start/Stop technology. We haven't seen any of that yet from any maker selling in the US, have we?


Start/stop is supposed to start showing up here in earnest during 2012 with Kia, Ford and a number of others sporting "microhybrid" tech.

Don't get the guys from Top gear started on start/stop ;)

ciddyguy
07-07-2011, 09:32 PM
I can understand the fun part but... My subaru 360 is fun to drive despite having a 25hp motor and getting 50-70mpg real world, sadly its so old now I am having trouble getting the exhaust back together. You can have fun and get good fuel economy.

Again the required stress points are NOT based on how the car crashes and have little to do with the test, they are dictated by our rules, there is a lot that goes into how a car crashes and having a "we require X" in every car does not necessarily improve anything and it limits innovation because it may be possible to build a car using a different building technique but getting the same road worthyness with being commanded by a rule that you must use "this".

Also in Europe many of our cars would not pass because of the reinforcements, they require adaptive crumple, adaptive seatbelts and adaptive airbags which do more to reduce the force exerted on the body during crashes. Few if any American made cars have adaptive crumple, seatbelt and airbag systems. Some of the safe-est cars in the world are Euro only microcars because of these technologies, however Europe is definately focused on reducing the injuries from the most common (in europe) accidents/collisions and are less focused on 75mph head ons that the US gov is more fixated on.

The reality is we need to get the laws changed and the cars should stand on their ratings not on hypotheticals that run rampant now, there is proof that NoX based emissions in non-megacenter environments actually reduces the affects of other types of pollution and reduces global warming effects.

Our current emission laws are a joke and have no basis in science, the main way of reducing emissions is by increasing fuel economy, banning certain technologies that increase fuel economy because our law dictates a certain percentage of this or that in the exhaust, as opposed to how much total the car makes is just plain stupid.

Europe in this regard is way ahead of us. Limits are based on how much you produce, not how many percent do you have.

Even with more lienient test cycles (aka slower speeds), it typically doesn't account for more than 15% anyway but how much it affects the car vrs our technique has to do with
1. weight.
2. aero.

Cars that have OK Aero and are light typically get very similar FE between the euro and US measurements.

Anyway I am hoping Fiat brings over some gas sipping options, not all of us just buy for fun.

Cheers
Ryan

Still, your argument doesn't fly when it comes to reinforcements as the load points are to CARRY the load away from areas where crumple zones exist and to help the cabin to retain as much integrity in an accident so while the car crumples up like a tin can, it'll protect the driver like it never did in the past, that's not necessarily how Europe does it, they emphasize pedestrian safety and have MUCH different bumper specifications than we do, which means at least in the past, and may WELL still be true, the rear gets a token bumper, while the ones here are more substantial.

The Fiat has advanced seatbelts and multi stage front airbags which means pretensioners to help further hold the occupant in the seat, has pelvic airbags, full curtain airbags and a knee airbag for a total of 7 airbags, while not all are required here, they ARE included and the same goes for Europe and even in Europe, the lowliest cars get only 2 airbags, the rest as options and ABS is I think required in both countries as is ESC (it IS required here as of 2012) and Europe focuses on CO2, while we don't necessarily here.

And BTW, depending on the accident, only the appropriate airbags will deploy, if any are required to deploy in the first place, that's available here.

I think I've made my point.

ResqDogz
01-10-2014, 01:03 PM
I can understand the fun part but... My subaru 360 is fun to drive despite having a 25hp motor and getting 50-70mpg real world, sadly its so old now I am having trouble getting the exhaust back together. You can have fun and get good fuel economy.

Anyway I am hoping Fiat brings over some gas sipping options, not all of us just buy for fun.

Cheers
Ryan

My Honda 600's (AZ and AN series) were - similar to your Subie 360 - exceptionally fun to drive, as were my Sonett's and 96's, and my Citroen 2CV's, etc...

This whole prohibition/conspiracy against the importation of contemporary and (recent) "vintage", highly efficient vehicles is a complete CROCK!

I had no problem bringing in a 2004 Toyota Echo 5-door hatchback (with super low miles) for my daughter from Canada: Toyota provided a statement of origin clearly demonstrating that it not only MET, but SURPASSED our domestic safety and emissions standards: This little gem consistently returns 42+ mpg, even with an automatic transmission!

There is an entire cottage industry in Canada based upon the importation, sales, and servicing of KEI class vehicles from Japan--- the preponderance of which routinely achieve 40~60 mpg, despite being copiously equipped with all the creature comforts Detroit insists we American cannot live without.

Presently, Canadians are allowed to import - sans restrictions - vehicles that are 15 years of age or older (they're agitating for a reduction to 10), while OUR country insists on an archaic 25-years-of-age mandate.

And - like the 500 - our domestic market fails to offer ANY of the more efficient engine/transmission combinations - at ANY price!

I would immediately acquire a TwinAir hybrid (the diesel-electric iteration), if only it were sold here!

Big Oil and Big Auto = screw the American consumer!

I - like so many, many others - am WAY PAST being incensed by their TELLING me (dictating) what I want, instead of offering me the option to exercise my economic vote by purchasing the more efficient transportation alternatives available!

Fiat500USA
01-10-2014, 01:37 PM
My Honda 600's (AZ and AN series) were - similar to your Subie 360 - exceptionally fun to drive, as were my Sonett's and 96's, and my Citroen 2CV's, etc...

This whole prohibition/conspiracy against the importation of contemporary and (recent) "vintage", highly efficient vehicles is a complete CROCK!

I had no problem bringing in a 2004 Toyota Echo 5-door hatchback (with super low miles) for my daughter from Canada: Toyota provided a statement of origin clearly demonstrating that it not only MET, but SURPASSED our domestic safety and emissions standards: This little gem consistently returns 42+ mpg, even with an automatic transmission!

There is an entire cottage industry in Canada based upon the importation, sales, and servicing of KEI class vehicles from Japan--- the preponderance of which routinely achieve 40~60 mpg, despite being copiously equipped with all the creature comforts Detroit insists we American cannot live without.

Presently, Canadians are allowed to import - sans restrictions - vehicles that are 15 years of age or older (they're agitating for a reduction to 10), while OUR country insists on an archaic 25-years-of-age mandate.

And - like the 500 - our domestic market fails to offer ANY of the more efficient engine/transmission combinations - at ANY price!

I would immediately acquire a TwinAir hybrid (the diesel-electric iteration), if only it were sold here!

Big Oil and Big Auto = screw the American consumer!

I - like so many, many others - am WAY PAST being incensed by their TELLING me (dictating) what I want, instead of offering me the option to exercise my economic vote by purchasing the more efficient transportation alternatives available!

Welcome to the forum!

I drove an executive to a function a while back and we had a long conversation about the MultiJet and the TwinAir. It isn't that they don't want to bring them here. Think about it, they have the cars and would love to sell them. The problem is it has to make good business sense. All the regulations on the diesel would add about $3,000 to the price of the car. On top of the $1,000 the engine costs. That is a lot of money to add to the price of the 500, a car that is already not an inexpensive car. As for the TwinAir, that was evaluated and it had to be driven so high up in its duty cycle to keep up with US road conditions, its fuel efficiency advantage was compromised. The new 105 hp version may be different. Look to your legislators and pressure them. They are the ones who are keeping you from having the lovely delicacies that the rest of the world has.

Tweak
01-10-2014, 04:40 PM
Welcome to the forum.

rnddude
01-10-2014, 04:52 PM
I predict, Heck, I almost guarantee, that start-stop will be on virtually every new car sole in the US by the end of the decade.

ResqDogz
03-20-2014, 01:27 PM
Welcome to the forum!

I drove an executive to a function a while back and we had a long conversation about the MultiJet and the TwinAir. It isn't that they don't want to bring them here. Think about it, they have the cars and would love to sell them. The problem is it has to make good business sense. All the regulations on the diesel would add about $3,000 to the price of the car. On top of the $1,000 the engine costs. That is a lot of money to add to the price of the 500, a car that is already not an inexpensive car. As for the TwinAir, that was evaluated and it had to be driven so high up in its duty cycle to keep up with US road conditions, its fuel efficiency advantage was compromised. The new 105 hp version may be different. Look to your legislators and pressure them. They are the ones who are keeping you from having the lovely delicacies that the rest of the world has.

"it had to be driven so high up in its duty cycle to keep up with US road conditions"???

Not exactly certain as to what you're referring to, here?

I - for one (and I'm fairly certain I speak for a massive amount of others, too) - would WELCOME a vehicle that wouldn't "demand" instant acceration to freeway speeds and sustained performance at 75-80+mph, and - for the sake of maximum fuel economy - would gladly pay those premiums for that opportunity, if given that chance!

After all, TwinAir's ARE capable of being operated on the autobahn, correct?

And my little twin-cylinder Honda 600's - geared like their motorbikes - had no problem handling freeway speeds with aplomb, returning 40+ mpg performance back in the early '70's!

Give us the chance to prove the pundits wrong: OFFER them here - even if on a limited trial basis, initially - and SEE if there's a market... or offer them on a special-order basis to those of us who don't give a damn what corporate America dicates "our" preferences to be??!!

S'far as "look to your legislators" goes, ever since the election (and re-election) of an articulate, impassioned, intelligent, even-temperamented President, these pompous congressional buffoons have time and again demonstrated they're incapable of finding their own asses with two hands and a flashlight.. let alone, passing ANY legislation... unless some huge corporate conglomerate greases their bank accounts sufficiently... There HAS to be an "end-run" around the current overly/blatently protectionist regulations??!!

Thanks for your prompt and candid response!

Feel free to contact me directly at resqdogz@gmail.com?

Stephen Lee Phillips

Fiat500USA
03-20-2014, 02:12 PM
"it had to be driven so high up in its duty cycle to keep up with US road conditions"???

Not exactly certain as to what you're referring to, here?

I - for one (and I'm fairly certain I speak for a massive amount of others, too) - would WELCOME a vehicle that wouldn't "demand" instant acceration to freeway speeds and sustained performance at 75-80+mph, and - for the sake of maximum fuel economy - would gladly pay those premiums for that opportunity, if given that chance!

After all, TwinAir's ARE capable of being operated on the autobahn, correct?

And my little twin-cylinder Honda 600's - geared like their motorbikes - had no problem handling freeway speeds with aplomb, returning 40+ mpg performance back in the early '70's!

Give us the chance to prove the pundits wrong: OFFER them here - even if on a limited trial basis, initially - and SEE if there's a market... or offer them on a special-order basis to those of us who don't give a damn what corporate America dicates "our" preferences to be??!!

S'far as "look to your legislators" goes, ever since the election (and re-election) of an articulate, impassioned, intelligent, even-temperamented President, these pompous congressional buffoons have time and again demonstrated they're incapable of finding their own asses with two hands and a flashlight.. let alone, passing ANY legislation... unless some huge corporate conglomerate greases their bank accounts sufficiently... There HAS to be an "end-run" around the current overly/blatently protectionist regulations??!!

Thanks for your prompt and candid response!

Feel free to contact me directly at resqdogz (at) gmail.com (resqdogz@gmail.com)?

Stephen Lee Phillips

Welcome to the forum.

Put plainly, the 85 HP TwinAir would need to be thrashed to keep up with U.S. driver expectations. This would negate any fuel or emission savings. Europeans and Americans have different driving conditions and expectations. In Europe, the base 500 comes with a 69 HP engine and that is considered acceptable. In America, the 101 HP 500 is peppy, but I don't think many owners would want something with less power.

In the 1970s, we had cars with 60 HP. You don't see that anymore. Cars are heavier and too much is expected from them in terms of equipment and safety, so low HP cars are not viable. At least not for the moment.

Now that the TwinAir has a 105 HP version, we may see that here in North America, but the 85 HP version is not suited. They tested it and it wasn't worth the major expense bringing it here. They would do it if it made sense. It is not economically viable for a company to spend considerable resources on certifying an engine just to try it out. These are different times.

ResqDogz
03-20-2014, 02:28 PM
Thanks for your prompt response ... however disappointing: I refuse to believe there aren't others out there like myself, who would be perfectly content with "69 HP".... and not all the obligatory "bells-n-whistles"?

The 2004 Echo 5-door hatchback I easily imported from Canada for my daughter, has the same 1.5L driveline as my 2005 Scion xB.. and came with AT/AC/Am-Fm-CD/Power locks... but not power windows. For the 42+ mpg it returns (51, in the 5-speed) we've been eminently satisfied...

Just wish there was even an outside glimmer of hope for a "KEI" class engine size, here: There's an entire burgeoning cottage industry in Canada that's sprung up around the importation of that class of Japanese pocket-rockets (and micro-vans) that seems to show no signs of abating.... that begs to differ with the "ultimatum" that we'll never receive these gems because "Americans demand" fat, pompous, overblown and oversized 'parade floats" to motor about it....

Sigh....

ResqDogz
03-20-2014, 02:30 PM
I'd have given ANYTHING to be one of those fortunate "testing participants", if only for the unique experience of being able to say "I drove one"!

markinmad
03-20-2014, 03:10 PM
Someone needs to import their own twinair engine and put it into a US spec 500. There are VW guys already sticking imported V6 TDI engines and 4motion drivetrains into US spec cars. Usually the recipient US chassis was a gas engined vehicle, making the conversion even more difficult.

Doohickie
03-20-2014, 04:38 PM
My current cobalt in the summer tops 50mpg highway,

Sorry, I gotta call BS on that assertion (http://www.fuelly.com/car/chevrolet/cobalt).

Doohickie
03-20-2014, 04:52 PM
Put plainly, the 85 HP TwinAir would need to be thrashed to keep up with U.S. driver expectations.

Millions of North American-sold Ford Escorts prove you wrong, sir.

Ryephile
03-20-2014, 05:52 PM
Thanks for your prompt response ... however disappointing: I refuse to believe there aren't others out there like myself, who would be perfectly content with "69 HP".... and not all the obligatory "bells-n-whistles"?

The 2004 Echo 5-door hatchback I easily imported from Canada for my daughter, has the same 1.5L driveline as my 2005 Scion xB.. and came with AT/AC/Am-Fm-CD/Power locks... but not power windows. For the 42+ mpg it returns (51, in the 5-speed) we've been eminently satisfied...

Just wish there was even an outside glimmer of hope for a "KEI" class engine size, here: There's an entire burgeoning cottage industry in Canada that's sprung up around the importation of that class of Japanese pocket-rockets (and micro-vans) that seems to show no signs of abating.... that begs to differ with the "ultimatum" that we'll never receive these gems because "Americans demand" fat, pompous, overblown and oversized 'parade floats" to motor about it....

Sigh....

On paper I agree with you. We don't need cars with 620HP as everyone's daily driver, yet there are people out there DD'ing the GT-R's, ZR1's, and Shelby Mustang's. Likely those cars rarely use more than a small percentage of their power, but their owners will vehemently defend their "need" for such power. I'm afraid the problem comes down to emotion rather than reality. People in this country very often equate flooring the accelerator for an act of anger, rage, or extreme aggression, usually towards other drivers. How many times do people utterly fail to accelerate enough on an on-ramp, only to get angry they aren't merging correctly? They proceed to cut off everyone, lunge to the left lane, and then floor it in a fit of anger. It makes no sense, but I see it many times everyday. People aren't educated enough to drive logically, so they drive emotionally, usually reactively.

The other problem is a low HP car with notable total aero drag at 70 MPH [just keeping up with traffic, faster if you live in TX, UT, etc.] is often unlikely to get good fuel economy, as it needs to either be deep in-boost, acceleration enrichment, and outside it's peak VE range. There's definitely a balance in the equation of acceleration and fuel economy in ever-growing and ever-heavier cars to meet ever-increasing safety requirements. For example, the 3rd gen Prius grew its ICE from 1.5 to 1.8L in order to get closer to a VE sweet-spot for most of it's operation. As such, it gets better FE on the Interstates than the last gen smaller engine [among other reasons, but the right-sized engine is a part of it].

IMO, the 1.4L in the 500 is a little bit too small for its total aero drag. In the Abarth, the car needs about 3 pounds of boost just to stay at a steady 70 MPH. That implies relatively notable total aero drag plus not the best VE at that RPM/load. The next gen 1.4L will have a broader VE sweet-spot with MultiAir3 [or whatever they decide to finally call it], so it will get better Interstate FE with the same displacement, assuming the next gen car doesn't offset it with worse aero.

I'd love to see some Kei cars here. A new-gen Honda Beat or Suzuki Cappuccino would be a blast! I do fear it just won't happen; there aren't enough of us small car fans unless there's a major sociological paradigm shift to start appreciating them "en masse".

Felnus
03-20-2014, 06:50 PM
Millions of North American-sold Ford Escorts prove you wrong, sir.

Those Ford Escorts also weighed less than 2000 pounds and would fold up like origami in an accident. Hard to believe that our little 500s weigh 2400+ pounds but they can take a hit quite well.

My old Ford Festiva had only 63 horsepower and I averaged 42 mpg with it but it only weighed 1400 pounds. I have to agree with Ryephile. I wouldn't want an engine with less power than what the base 1.4L has in the 500 in the US. The 105hp Twin-Air? Bring it on.

catman2130093
03-20-2014, 07:31 PM
I have a perfectly fine vehicle that I dearly love-a 5spd Element SC-07 vintage. It was hard to find back in 07. I'm looking at the cars for sale out there now,and "automated" transmissions aren't my cup at all. REAL manuals have levers,not paddles. I also prefer switchgear to tft screens in a dashboard. Call me old fashioned, I think of myself as a purist. Whatever,the Abarth with manual suits me just fine. I take delivery in 5 days,and can barely wait. I'm old enough to remember the Fiats sold here back in the 70s,that used crummy Soviet steel. You could watch them rust if you paid attention! My dad drove an 850 Spyder for nearly 30 years. He was from the "Red Green" school of auto maintenance-so if a Fiat could survive him, I know the new ones rock. Still wish I could have afforded that 2 door 128 Wagon back in the day! All that to say that with the slim pickings of affordable cars with real manual trans being what it is, I'm adding a leftover 013 Abarth to my life. Dad would be proud..

catman2130093
03-20-2014, 07:38 PM
oops

Doohickie
03-20-2014, 08:55 PM
Those Ford Escorts also weighed less than 2000 pounds and would fold up like origami in an accident. Hard to believe that our little 500s weigh 2400+ pounds but they can take a hit quite well.

My old Ford Festiva had only 63 horsepower and I averaged 42 mpg with it but it only weighed 1400 pounds. I have to agree with Ryephile. I wouldn't want an engine with less power than what the base 1.4L has in the 500 in the US. The 105hp Twin-Air? Bring it on.

Festiva? More like 1800 lb (http://www.edmunds.com/ford/festiva/1993/features-specs.html).

Felnus
03-20-2014, 09:05 PM
Festiva? More like 1800 lb (http://www.edmunds.com/ford/festiva/1993/features-specs.html).

Maybe one with air conditioning, sunroof, and automatic was that heavy. Mine had none of that plus the rear seats had been removed. On the scales at the drag strip(don't laugh) mine weighed in at little over 1450.

Ryephile
03-20-2014, 11:15 PM
I have a perfectly fine vehicle that I dearly love-a 5spd Element SC-07 vintage. It was hard to find back in 07. I'm looking at the cars for sale out there now,and "automated" transmissions aren't my cup at all. REAL manuals have levers,not paddles. I also prefer switchgear to tft screens in a dashboard. Call me old fashioned, I think of myself as a purist. Whatever,the Abarth with manual suits me just fine. I take delivery in 5 days,and can barely wait. I'm old enough to remember the Fiats sold here back in the 70s,that used crummy Soviet steel. You could watch them rust if you paid attention! My dad drove an 850 Spyder for nearly 30 years. He was from the "Red Green" school of auto maintenance-so if a Fiat could survive him, I know the new ones rock. Still wish I could have afforded that 2 door 128 Wagon back in the day! All that to say that with the slim pickings of affordable cars with real manual trans being what it is, I'm adding a leftover 013 Abarth to my life. Dad would be proud..

I agree with your purist perspective. :) Welcome to the forum and best of luck for a clean and tidy delivery of your soon-to-be Abarth! You're going to have a blast with it.

FWIW, there's a major uproar within automakers right now trying to figure out how to "progress" the next generation of cars and hopefully improve upon the typically awful touch interfaces. IMO, nothing beats the classic 3-dial HVAC and a good ole volume knob on the audio!

Doohickie
03-21-2014, 01:27 PM
Maybe one with air conditioning, sunroof, and automatic was that heavy. Mine had none of that plus the rear seats had been removed. On the scales at the drag strip(don't laugh) mine weighed in at little over 1450.

I had the full-dresser Aspire with the same engine and it was fine, acceleration-wise. People are spoiled and HP numbers are used for marketing.

msjulie33
03-21-2014, 01:35 PM
I do fear it just won't happen; there aren't enough of us small car fans unless there's a major sociological paradigm shift to start appreciating them "en masse".

Sadly I think that's true - too many lumbering fuel hogging SUVs :(

NORCAL SS
03-22-2014, 10:38 AM
We don't need cars with 620HP as everyone's daily driver, yet there are people out there DD'ing the GT-R's, ZR1's, and Shelby Mustang's. Likely those cars rarely use more than a small percentage of their power, but their owners will vehemently defend their "need" for such power.


my car makes almost 800 at wheels and I Love driving it. Just a question whats the most hp car you have driven and owned? Once you get past 600 rwhp the fun really beings.

Is that much power needed. Hell no!

Is that much power fun to drive on the street? Hell Yes

my fiat makes 207/228 at the wheels and thing is fun to drive i wish i could get 300 at wheels