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trinME
05-04-2011, 02:44 PM
I commented on this on the May 2 blog, but I guess that doesn't get much traffic.
It's been mentioned in several places that one of the bench marks for Fiat receiving an additional 5% ownership in Chrysler is the North American production, by Chrysler, of a car getting 40+ mpg, using Fiat technology. Not clear whether it has to be badged as a Chrysler.
The press release mentioned in the blog says that bench mark will be reached in the 4th quarter of this year. This seems to mean either a new engine for the 500, or a new vehicle, with a new engine. Maybe a 500 with a new engine, re-badged as a Chrysler? Either way, my guess would be the TwinAire engine, not the diesel, as a recent press release said the first appearance of the Multijet diesel will be in a 2013 Jeep Grand Cherokee.
Comments, Chris, or anyone?
-TR

Giallo Edizione
05-04-2011, 02:49 PM
I recall I read a recent interview with Marchionne where he said the EV 500 would precede the Abarth, so maybe that's what will be introduced in Q4.

trinME
05-04-2011, 02:53 PM
You may be right. I hadn't thought of an ev as meeting the requirement, but maybe so. -TR

Fiat500USA
05-05-2011, 02:49 AM
author="trinME">
I commented on this on the May 2 blog, but I guess that doesn't get much traffic.
It's been mentioned in several places that one of the bench marks for Fiat receiving an additional 5% ownership in Chrysler is the North American production, by Chrysler, of a car getting 40+ mpg, using Fiat technology. Not clear whether it has to be badged as a Chrysler.
The press release mentioned in the blog says that bench mark will be reached in the 4th quarter of this year. This seems to mean either a new engine for the 500, or a new vehicle, with a new engine. Maybe a 500 with a new engine, re-badged as a Chrysler? Either way, my guess would be the TwinAire engine, not the diesel, as a recent press release said the first appearance of the Multijet diesel will be in a 2013 Jeep Grand Cherokee.
Comments, Chris, or anyone?
-TR


Hi TR, I meant to comment on your earlier post.

It is a new vehicle that is coming out. I'm seeing some folks in about a week and hopefully will find out more info... Although, I may have to give up a kidney to find out. LOL

Closest I heard was a B segment vehicle (this was back in 2009) badged as a Chrysler. That may have changed.

trinME
05-05-2011, 07:11 AM
Wow, they've kept this under wrap pretty well, if they're going into production this year. Thanks Chris.

But this begs the question, what engine? If it's going in a larger car, seams like it would have to be a larger version of the TwinAire, to get adequate performance. It seams unlikely a larger version of the Multiaire, in a heavier car, could get better mpg than it does in the 500.
-TR

Fiat500USA
05-05-2011, 10:42 AM
author="trinME">
Wow, they've kept this under wrap pretty well, if they're going into production this year. Thanks Chris.

But this begs the question, what engine? If it's going in a larger car, seams like it would have to be a larger version of the TwinAire, to get adequate performance. It seams unlikely a larger version of the Multiaire, in a heavier car, could get better mpg than it does in the 500.
-TR


That is a great question. One thing is that the 40mpg is measured under the older EPA ratings, so it should be easier to achieve.

The original language in the 2009 Agreement seemed to indicate that the car would just have to use a Fiat platform (E-Evo?), however, there was a revision (or clarification) that inserts 40mpg into the mix.

Giallo Edizione
05-05-2011, 10:56 AM
<quote author="Fiat500USA">
That is a great question. One thing is that the 40mpg is measured under the older EPA ratings, so it should be easier to achieve.

The original language in the 2009 Agreement seemed to indicate that the car would just have to use a Fiat platform (E-Evo?), however, there was a revision (or clarification) that inserts 40mpg into the mix.
</quote>

If they were to use the older EPA rating system, I think the US spec 500 would already qualify.

trinME
05-05-2011, 11:17 AM
You took the words out of my mouth, Giallo.
Does the requirement say it has to be badged as a Chrysler?
-TR

BrankoBox
05-05-2011, 06:00 PM
I think that “40 MPG combined unadjusted” car is new Dodge Neon, based on a Alfa Romeo Giulietta platform. It'll have less powerful version (from Fiat Bravo) of 1.4 multiair turbo engine - 140 hp and 170 lb-ft. This “40 MPG combined unadjusted” is pre-2008 epa methodology, but I believe that it'll reach same or slightly better "new" epa result than Hyundai Elantra.

Fiat 500 (USA) 1.4 MA - 30/38 USA cycle
Fiat 500 (EU) 1.4 - 29/45 EU cycle
Fiat Bravo 1.4 T MA - 32/49 EU cycle
Alfa Giulietta 1.4 T MA - 30/50 EU cycle - 168 hp and 180 lb-ft.

With Alfa double clutch TCT transmission mpg is a bit better, so I hope that they won't put some kind of mpg killer auto transmission like in Fiat 500.

All in all, we should expect around 30/40 from EPA.

trinME
05-05-2011, 07:04 PM
Thanks Branko. A 1.4 multiair with turbo makes sense.
But have those EU numbers been corrected for Imperial vs. US gallons? That confusion lead to some disappointment when the US 500 numbers were released.
-TR

ciddyguy
05-05-2011, 08:21 PM
author="trinME">
I commented on this on the May 2 blog, but I guess that doesn't get much traffic.
It's been mentioned in several places that one of the bench marks for Fiat receiving an additional 5% ownership in Chrysler is the North American production, by Chrysler, of a car getting 40+ mpg, using Fiat technology. Not clear whether it has to be badged as a Chrysler.
The press release mentioned in the blog says that bench mark will be reached in the 4th quarter of this year. This seems to mean either a new engine for the 500, or a new vehicle, with a new engine. Maybe a 500 with a new engine, re-badged as a Chrysler? Either way, my guess would be the TwinAire engine, not the diesel, as a recent press release said the first appearance of the Multijet diesel will be in a 2013 Jeep Grand Cherokee.
Comments, Chris, or anyone?
-TR


Hmmm... Speculations abound, I WAS going to say, perhaps the Panda as I've heard rumors it may come stateside, but badged as a Jeep instead, but it's still technically an A segment car, albeit in a more boxy, though attractive and useful design and with 4 doors for ease of rear seat egress.

I also speculated the TwinAir, but the 105HP variant of it, which should still give one more MPG than the 1.4L MultiAir, which is quite good in and of itself in that regard.

But Chris said, "B" segment so that means a model that's slightly larger than the 500 so perhaps the Mito as Alfa is slated to come stateside by next year anyway and it comes with the 1.4L version of the motor we have, but perhaps with a mild turbo boosting.

The Abarth, well, don't know what it'll actually get, but we are talking perhaps even more than 140HP with that so it has to be something else and the Mito may well be it but who knows though.

Fiat500USA
05-05-2011, 11:10 PM
author="ciddyguy">

author="trinME">
I commented on this on the May 2 blog, but I guess that doesn't get much traffic.
It's been mentioned in several places that one of the bench marks for Fiat receiving an additional 5% ownership in Chrysler is the North American production, by Chrysler, of a car getting 40+ mpg, using Fiat technology. Not clear whether it has to be badged as a Chrysler.
The press release mentioned in the blog says that bench mark will be reached in the 4th quarter of this year. This seems to mean either a new engine for the 500, or a new vehicle, with a new engine. Maybe a 500 with a new engine, re-badged as a Chrysler? Either way, my guess would be the TwinAire engine, not the diesel, as a recent press release said the first appearance of the Multijet diesel will be in a 2013 Jeep Grand Cherokee.
Comments, Chris, or anyone?
-TR


Hmmm... Speculations abound, I WAS going to say, perhaps the Panda as I've heard rumors it may come stateside, but badged as a Jeep instead, but it's still technically an A segment car, albeit in a more boxy, though attractive and useful design and with 4 doors for ease of rear seat egress.

I also speculated the TwinAir, but the 105HP variant of it, which should still give one more MPG than the 1.4L MultiAir, which is quite good in and of itself in that regard.

But Chris said, "B" segment so that means a model that's slightly larger than the 500 so perhaps the Mito as Alfa is slated to come stateside by next year anyway and it comes with the 1.4L version of the motor we have, but perhaps with a mild turbo boosting.

The Abarth, well, don't know what it'll actually get, but we are talking perhaps even more than 140HP with that so it has to be something else and the Mito may well be it but who knows though.

In the plans, it said C segment, but that 40mpg is very curious, I can't imagine the 1.4L getting 40mpg in a C segment car.

To add to the mystery are B segment cars that are shown/talked about. These are slated for 2013, but that was in 2009. It would be easier to get 40mpg out of the B segment, so these may have been moved up.

Fullsize images here:

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/rezj_ZBG5Tk3GnCgW7gsB9LlbwJwC8oj9ek1svon9-k?feat=directlink

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/eTJcRh6N_8fYbB2ddidr9dLlbwJwC8oj9ek1svon9-k?feat=directlink

http://fiat-500-usa-forum-archives.965414.n3.nabble.com/file/n2906730/Fiat500USA-Chrysler_5Year_ProductPlan.jpg

http://fiat-500-usa-forum-archives.965414.n3.nabble.com/file/n2906730/Fiat500USA-Dodge%2520product%2520plan.jpg

ciddyguy
05-06-2011, 12:39 AM
Still in all Chris, with 40MPG being the criteria NOW, who knows what they have in store, things CAN change quite a bit in over 2 years time.

But you make some valid observations and a "C" segment car making 40PG is tougher than either an A or B segment car will ever be, unless a hybrid of some sort, but that's not what's stated and I think it means as a GAS only vehicle and not a hybrid.

Only time will tell!

Fiat500USA
05-06-2011, 12:56 AM
author="BrankoBox">
I think that “40 MPG combined unadjusted” car is new Dodge Neon, based on a Alfa Romeo Giulietta platform. It'll have less powerful version (from Fiat Bravo) of 1.4 multiair turbo engine - 140 hp and 170 lb-ft. This “40 MPG combined unadjusted” is pre-2008 epa methodology, but I believe that it'll reach same or slightly better "new" epa result than Hyundai Elantra.

Fiat 500 (USA) 1.4 MA - 30/38 USA cycle
Fiat 500 (EU) 1.4 - 29/45 EU cycle
Fiat Bravo 1.4 T MA - 32/49 EU cycle
Alfa Giulietta 1.4 T MA - 30/50 EU cycle - 168 hp and 180 lb-ft.

With Alfa double clutch TCT transmission mpg is a bit better, so I hope that they won't put some kind of mpg killer auto transmission like in Fiat 500.

All in all, we should expect around 30/40 from EPA.


Hi BrankoBox, welcome to the forum!

These mpg figures are really the missing link. The 30/50 for the Giulietta looks outstanding and your 30/40 for the US sounds plausible. If the US MultiAir Turbo gets this kind of mileage, looks like the mystery is solved. Good Job! <smiley image='anim_handshake.gif'/>

Fiat500USA
05-06-2011, 01:10 AM
author="ciddyguy">
Still in all Chris, with 40MPG being the criteria NOW, who knows what they have in store, things CAN change quite a bit in over 2 years time.

But you make some valid observations and a "C" segment car making 40PG is tougher than either an A or B segment car will ever be, unless a hybrid of some sort, but that's not what's stated and I think it means as a GAS only vehicle and not a hybrid.

Only time will tell!


Ciddyguy, looks like BrankoBox supplied the missing mpg into the equation, so we'll see how it plays out. This is getting interesting!

Giallo Edizione
05-06-2011, 11:24 AM
From Motor Trend April 29:

Fiat is expected to obtain another 5 percent of Chrysler soon to bring its interest to 51 percent, provided it introduces a 40-mpg (highway) EPA-rated car built in the U.S. wearing a Chrysler brand badge before the end of 2011. With Fiat and Chrysler pulling the plug on electric car development, the 40-mpg car is likely to be a 1.4-liter Multijet-powered Dodge Caliber. The Caliber is scheduled for replacement in model year 2013, so the Multijet version could be a 2012 model only, with the powertrain carried on to its replacement.

So: a) it's 40MPG _highway_
b) it's Chrysler branded
c) it's not EV ( first I heard this was off the table)

Will be interesting to see how they squeeze another 2mpg _highway_out of the 1.4L MJ in what is today a bigger car than 500. Can't use tricks like auto off, CVT, turbo-boost etc. for the highway end of the scale. Super tall high gear? 4-2 cyl MDS? Skinny eco-firendly tires? Bribe the EPA? Maybe the new Caliber body will be introduced earlier and is lower profile and has a better C of D than 500.

trinME
05-06-2011, 12:29 PM
Well, that's interesting, and confusing.

Remember that the Multijet is the diesel, so that explains how they could get better mpg than with the Multiaire.

But that contradicts the recent press release, which said the first US appearance of the Multijet technology would be in the 2013 Jeep Grand Cherokee.

-TR

Giallo Edizione
05-06-2011, 01:21 PM
Good point. Maybe it will be the diesel after all. That would definitely make sense having abandoned electric technology.

trinME
05-06-2011, 01:33 PM
They're certainly keeping us guessing.
I'll be disappointed if they really have abandoned the EV, I might have considered that option. Any other source for that information?
-TR

BrankoBox
05-06-2011, 02:01 PM
It won't be diesel, that's for sure. 1.4 is Multiair, multijets are 1.3, 1.6 and 2.0.
New car will have sleeker body and lower height than 500, so it'll get lower aerodynamic drag.

Fiat 500 does 70 mph at 2900 rpm
Alfa Giulietta with manual does 70 mph at 2700 rpm
Alfa Giulietta with TCT does 70 mph at 2400 rpm. TCT (like vw dsg) - dual clutch automated manual with tall gearing.
I guess that lower drag and lower rpm on highway will yield couple of extra mpgs.

We know that they'll put TCT in Chrysler 200, so it'll be shame not to put it in "new C car" and improve mpg.

BrankoBox
05-06-2011, 02:13 PM
One more thing, 2 mpg at 40 mpg is a lot lower than 2 mpg at 30 mpg, so it won't be hard to squeeze a couple more mpg to get 40.

MPG ratings are not intuitive as gallons per 100 miles. Almost everyone will tell you that one will save more by going to 75 mpg car from 40 mpg, than one going from 12 to 14 mpg vehicle. But it's not true.

trinME
05-06-2011, 03:22 PM
Yep, I'm definitely confused.

For one thing, I wish that Fiat had come up with better names for their technologies than Twinair, Multiair and Multijet. They sound too much alike, and don't suggest the fundamental differences between them.

I suspect some writers may have gotten them confused as well.

-TR

ciddyguy
05-06-2011, 08:54 PM
Having read what brankobox has said, I think he may WELL be onto something there and as for the XXXjet/air nomenclature, I generally don't get them mixed up, it's when I don't pay close attention and let my mind mis-parse the text I might get them mixed up temporarily. When I read TwinAir, I know it's the new 2 pot motor, MultiAir is the variable valve variant of the gas motors and MultiJet for the diesels.

In essence, either a tweaked MultiAir motor of say, 1.4L displacement in perhaps turbo form OR a diesel, but he says it may well not be the diesel, but who knows though with the larger sized MultiJet II diesel being fitted to the new Jeep Grand Cherokee.

trinME
05-07-2011, 08:37 AM
I found the Motortrend article referred to above by Giallo, here:
http://motortrend.automotive.com/159938/1104-fiat-keeps-gobbling-up-chrysler/index.html
The quote was accurate, it definitely says 1.4 Multijet in a Dodge Caliber.
I can think of at least 2 possibilities:
1) The writer was confused, he should have said "Multiair".
2) The writer was correct, but so is Branko. There will be a Caliber with Multijet, and there will be a new vehicle with Multiair and better aerodynamics, that gets 40+ mpg.

I guess we'll have to wait for Chris to shed more light on this mystery.
-TR

Fiat500USA
05-07-2011, 09:10 AM
Doing some research on the 1.4L MultiAir turbo in the Alfa Giulietta shows it to get GREAT gas mileage, just as BrankoBox posted. I think that is the key, plus it will get the TCT trans, which will definitely help.

trinME
05-08-2011, 06:21 PM
Hi Chris- Do you have any comments on the above Motortrend article?
Has Fiat "pulled the plug" on the 500 EV ?
Will there be a new engine option this year for the Caliber, "1.4 Multijet", or other?

Maybe you can ask those folks you'll be seeing this week. I'm sure the forum can come up with a spare kidney to help. :>)

-TR

Fiat500USA
05-08-2011, 11:19 PM
author="trinME">
Hi Chris- Do you have any comments on the above Motortrend article?
Has Fiat "pulled the plug" on the 500 EV ?
Will there be a new engine option this year for the Caliber, "1.4 Multijet", or other?

Maybe you can ask those folks you'll be seeing this week. I'm sure the forum can come up with a spare kidney to help. :>)

-TR


Chrysler has access to all Fiat technologies including MultiJet II. Diesel engined Chryslers are the best kept secret, so no news on them. We also know that MultiAir will be added to the 2.4L engines, but again, no news on the fuel economy of that engine, either.

Right now, other than the product plans I posted, there is only a lot of speculation on what's in store. Even the product plans are subject to change. Having said that, I'll add my 2 cents: I really think the MultiAir Turbo/TCT combo will be the in the 40mpg car and that will be a new body.

I also think the 500 EV is still go... again, my guess.

I may take you up on that kidney offer! I'll see some folks next week.

navy48
05-11-2011, 04:52 PM
LOL....while I LOVE charts, graphs and statistics, I don't believe a word of it until I see the product. what really irked me is that when Chrysler/Fiat went before Congress to ask for a bailout, they showed up with all of these "EV" vehicles: a Jeep Wrangler Unlimited EV, a Chrysler T&C Minivan EV and a Dodge EV concept 'sports car'. ALL of these were awesome vehicles and Chrysler was given the "loan" based on what Congress saw and was told. so, where are these "EV" vehicles? in a scrap heap somewhere, along with the plans to produce them. :(

so when Chrysler says they'll have a car that gets 40mpgs in the next year or so.......I'll believe it when I see it....or better yet, DRIVE IT.

btw....I LOVE CHRYSLER. just VERY disappointed in their actions.

Fiat500USA
05-12-2011, 12:35 AM
author="navy48">
LOL....while I LOVE charts, graphs and statistics, I don't believe a word of it until I see the product. what really irked me is that when Chrysler/Fiat went before Congress to ask for a bailout, they showed up with all of these "EV" vehicles: a Jeep Wrangler Unlimited EV, a Chrysler T&C Minivan EV and a Dodge EV concept 'sports car'. ALL of these were awesome vehicles and Chrysler was given the "loan" based on what Congress saw and was told. so, where are these "EV" vehicles? in a scrap heap somewhere, along with the plans to produce them. :(

so when Chrysler says they'll have a car that gets 40mpgs in the next year or so.......I'll believe it when I see it....or better yet, DRIVE IT.

btw....I LOVE CHRYSLER. just VERY disappointed in their actions.


From what I understand, they are still doing work on this, so I don't know what Motortrend is referring to. Chrysler has also completed an application for a Government grant on EVs. What Chrysler did is sell off GEM. Here's what they say:

" Chrysler Group is continuously evaluating strategic requirements in the rapidly changing regulatory environment for alternative propulsion vehicles. GEM has contributed significantly to Chrysler's ongoing Zero Emissions Vehicle (ZEV) compliance activities in California and the other Mandate States. Chrysler will pursue a range of other ZEV options moving forward, focusing on full-function EVs. "

trinME
05-12-2011, 08:33 AM
Thanks Chris.
Still trying to catch up here. What is/was GEM, and who was it sold to?
-TR

Fiat500USA
05-12-2011, 09:47 AM
author="trinME">

Thanks Chris.
Still trying to catch up here. What is/was GEM, and who was it sold to?
-TR


Hi trinMe,

Here's some info on GEM:

Chrysler Group Global Electric Motorcars LLC (GEM), is a wholly owned subsidiary of Chrysler Group LLC, and produces the GEM vehicle line of battery-electric vehicles. The GEM line is the market leader in the low-speed vehicle industry and more than 45,000 vehicles are on the road worldwide. GEM has been in business since 1998.

On April 26, Chrysler announced the sale of substantially all of the assets of GEM and NEV to Polaris Industries, Inc. Chrysler Group explained the sale saying: (they) " decided to focus its energies on its core automotive business".

http://fiat-500-usa-forum-archives.965414.n3.nabble.com/file/n2931827/gem_e2_oncitystreet__mid.jpg

trinME
05-12-2011, 11:02 AM
Ah, the mist is dissipating.

Seems likely that is what the Motortrend article was referring to. And there's hope for the 500EV.

-TR

sketch
05-13-2011, 07:16 PM
It will not be a diesel. America is still very diesel-averse. The CRD offered in the Liberty did not sell well, and it's in a <i>truck</i>. Diesel may do somewhat better in the Grand Cherokee, but I don't expect it to be a huge success.


author="navy48">
LOL....while I LOVE charts, graphs and statistics, I don't believe a word of it until I see the product. what really irked me is that when Chrysler/Fiat went before Congress to ask for a bailout, they showed up with all of these "EV" vehicles: a Jeep Wrangler Unlimited EV, a Chrysler T&C Minivan EV and a Dodge EV concept 'sports car'. ALL of these were awesome vehicles and Chrysler was given the "loan" based on what Congress saw and was told. so, where are these "EV" vehicles? in a scrap heap somewhere, along with the plans to produce them. :(

so when Chrysler says they'll have a car that gets 40mpgs in the next year or so.......I'll believe it when I see it....or better yet, DRIVE IT.

1) Those EV concepts were just that: concepts. They were never destined for production.
2) The 40 mpg compact with FIAT technology is a federal requirement of Chrysler which will allow FIAT to increase ownership byanother 5%. The question is not if, but when, it will happen.
3) Remember that the Hyundai Elantra you can buy right now makes 40mpg highway EPA without MultiAir, direct injection, forced induction...

ciddyguy
05-13-2011, 09:44 PM
author="sketch">
It will not be a diesel. America is still very diesel-averse. The CRD offered in the Liberty did not sell well, and it's in a <i>truck</i>. Diesel may do somewhat better in the Grand Cherokee, but I don't expect it to be a huge success.

[QUOTE]author="navy48">
LOL....while I LOVE charts, graphs and statistics, I don't believe a word of it until I see the product. what really irked me is that when Chrysler/Fiat went before Congress to ask for a bailout, they showed up with all of these "EV" vehicles: a Jeep Wrangler Unlimited EV, a Chrysler T&C Minivan EV and a Dodge EV concept 'sports car'. ALL of these were awesome vehicles and Chrysler was given the "loan" based on what Congress saw and was told. so, where are these "EV" vehicles? in a scrap heap somewhere, along with the plans to produce them. :(

so when Chrysler says they'll have a car that gets 40mpgs in the next year or so.......I'll believe it when I see it....or better yet, DRIVE IT.

3) Remember that the Hyundai Elantra you can buy right now makes 40mpg highway EPA without MultiAir, direct injection, forced induction...

Or so Hyundai claims and we know it's possible, but generally ONLY on smaller sized cars, often with small sized motors and the Elantra isn't small, it's a compact at best as far as smallness goes and has a motor larger than in the Fiat too.

sketch
05-13-2011, 10:01 PM
That's the real number—the Elantra is rated 29/40 by the EPA, automatic transmission, standard feature. It isn't just some unfounded claim: that isn't allowed in advertising anymore.

The car called for in the government's plan for Chrysler is a 40 mpg EPA highway car in the C segment. That's the same segment as the Elantra, Cruze, Focus, Civic, Caliber, and so on. Cruze, Focus and Civic all have special editions which make 40 on the highway too (Eco, SFE, HX). The government's requirement is basically "make a car that can compete with Ford, GM, Honda, and Hyundai", which is something they should be doing anyway.

Fiat500USA
05-14-2011, 12:23 AM
All I can say is Fiat and Fiat Powertrain can make a car that gets 40mpg just like those others. No worries about that (and they will be cool to drive while getting the 40mpg).

cogtooth
05-14-2011, 03:11 PM
I would think that many of us already get over 40 mpg highway. My mixed use this tank what with trying to drive using ecodrive suggestions is 38.6 mpg. This no fun mode only works when in traffic when you can't go too fast anyway. Some cars are just made to pass the EPA testing, and other companies don't worry about it, and maybe Fiat did not have time to perfect the EPA requirements.

Fiat500USA
05-14-2011, 09:59 PM
author="cogtooth">
... Some cars are just made to pass the EPA testing, and other companies don't worry about it, and maybe Fiat did not have time to perfect the EPA requirements.


The feeling I get when talking to the engineers is drivability and fun were paramount. They could have tuned the car for maximum fuel economy, but that is not what this car is about.

I think you put your finger on something. Fuel economy is all some cars have to offer.

Giallo Edizione
05-15-2011, 10:32 AM
author="Fiat500USA">
[QUOTE]author="cogtooth">
... Some cars are just made to pass the EPA testing, and other companies don't worry about it, and maybe Fiat did not have time to perfect the EPA requirements.
</quote>

The feeling I get when talking to the engineers is drivability and fun were paramount. They could have tuned the car for maximum fuel economy, but that is not what this car is about.

I think you put your finger on something. Fuel economy is all some cars have to offer.

Agree. Midpoint for Elantra is 34.5mpg and for 500 it is 34. Amost nobody drives all highway, most are mixed. For that small difference I will take the FIAT thank you. Yes I know the Elantra is an automatic-its also an Elantra.

sjmst
05-15-2011, 11:17 AM
I'm getting 38+ in mixed use. And I'm not babying it.

F500
06-17-2011, 11:04 AM
I was lucky enough a month ago to drive a 500 Sport for the weekend. it had the 6sp auto and for my weekend jaunts (approx 180 miles of driving, city and highway) I averaged OVER 34mpg. this is quite promising as I was NOT driving it easy and was playing with the "Sport Mode" button and the autostick feature.

once I get locked in on what's best for my driving style, I believe I can improve on that......maybe even hit 40 with the auto!

panther76
06-17-2011, 11:29 AM
if you look at the real world mileage thread, you will see some of us fiat 500 owners are getting well over 40 mpg's.

buysfiat
09-06-2011, 01:04 AM
299
The Fuel economy.gov site has the Elantra at 29/40 but the actual users have it at 23/38 with a combined average of 31.9
My 500auto with regular gas has averaged 35.7 for 3200miles. Why?

Noz
09-06-2011, 04:11 AM
While the MPG of the 500 is good, why is the SMOG score of this car so low? I thought the multiair technology was supposed to reduce emissions and perform better than a regular IC? What gives? The EPA rates this car's smog score as 4/10....to compare a Fiesta gets 6/10 and a CRZ gets 9/10. Remember...I'm talking about the SMOG score.

Any ideas?

F500
09-06-2011, 05:34 AM
While the MPG of the 500 is good, why is the SMOG score of this car so low? I thought the multiair technology was supposed to reduce emissions and perform better than a regular IC? What gives? The EPA rates this car's smog score as 4/10....to compare a Fiesta gets 6/10 and a CRZ gets 9/10. Remember...I'm talking about the SMOG score.

Any ideas?

I wondered that myself. why such low scores and ratings? its as if the government 'bailed out' Chrysler with the FIAT deal yet they still want it to fail? makes no sense to me. of course I don't know what kind of emissions my 500 is exhailing, but my MPG's for my 6sp auto is MUCH higher than the EPA ratings. with over 2300 miles on "Gumby", I'm AVERAGING 38.3 on this tank of gas. last one was well over 36. not bad for a car that's only rated at 27/34.

cmj912
09-06-2011, 08:58 AM
I feel like it is either some sort of mistake or the car has not been formally tested.
When I go to the drive clean website and I search for other cars with a score of 8 and 4, I get only one other matching car: the Altima 2.5 -
And the gasoline-engine Golf is cleaner?

The scores make no sense except for the highest ones.

Have each of these cars been physically tested for their scores?

Fiat500USA
09-06-2011, 11:41 AM
299
The Fuel economy.gov site has the Elantra at 29/40 but the actual users have it at 23/38 with a combined average of 31.9
My 500auto with regular gas has averaged 35.7 for 3200miles. Why?

Because the car manufacturer tests their own car and submit the "EPA" numbers. EPA reviews the results and confirms about 10-15 percent of them through their own tests at the National Vehicles and Fuel Emissions Laboratory.

I was told by Fiat insiders that they were careful to make sure that the figures would readily be obtainable by real people...

Noz
09-06-2011, 03:17 PM
Because the car manufacturer tests their own car and submit the "EPA" numbers. EPA reviews the results and confirms about 10-15 percent of them through their own tests at the National Vehicles and Fuel Emissions Laboratory.

I was told by Fiat insiders that they were careful to make sure that the figures would readily be obtainable by real people...

That makes no sense...the EPA most definitely does the testing. Car manufacturers do not do their own testing. I've never ever heard of that.

FIAT would not score its own car so low and draw criticism.

Fiat500USA
09-06-2011, 03:45 PM
That makes no sense...the EPA most definitely does the testing. Car manufacturers do not do their own testing. I've never ever heard of that.

FIAT would not score its own car so low and draw criticism.

Surprising, right? Go here and read about it: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/how_tested.shtml :apple:

I was told this a while ago a few times by folks, and it surprised me, too. I cut and pasted this sentence off of their site, 'cause I was lazy:
"EPA reviews the results and confirms about 10-15 percent of them through their own tests at the National Vehicles and Fuel Emissions Laboratory."

Noz
09-06-2011, 06:38 PM
Surprising, right? Go here and read about it: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/how_tested.shtml :apple:

I was told this a while ago a few times by folks, and it surprised me, too. I cut and pasted this sentence off of their site, 'cause I was lazy:
"EPA reviews the results and confirms about 10-15 percent of them through their own tests at the National Vehicles and Fuel Emissions Laboratory."

Then that speaks poorly for FIAT's emissions...4/10 for a supposedly new engine in such a light car....not good:(

cmj912
09-07-2011, 09:25 AM
I did read someplace that the engine is LEV, not ULEV or S-ULEV.

But how it could be a 4/10 just doesn't make sense to me. If anyone has to get their car emissions tested soon, perhaps the could post their reading. I doubt it is going to be soon given that everyone's cars are so new - but still -

re: Noz - maybe not the car for you? Or wait until a different engine is offered?

Abarthlyness
09-07-2011, 10:42 AM
I did read someplace that the engine is LEV, not ULEV or S-ULEV.

But how it could be a 4/10 just doesn't make sense to me. If anyone has to get their car emissions tested soon, perhaps the could post their reading. I doubt it is going to be soon given that everyone's cars are so new - but still -

re: Noz - maybe not the car for you? Or wait until a different engine is offered?

X2

Noz, maybe this car isn't really your cup of tea, if you are that worried about the emissions of this tiny little engine.

I personally will feel great about my purchase, as I will be going from a 2.4 liter turbo, to a naturally aspirated 1.4 liter.

So, I'm likely cutting my emissions in half ;)

Chris
09-07-2011, 11:40 AM
That makes no sense...the EPA most definitely does the testing. Car manufacturers do not do their own testing. I've never ever heard of that.

FIAT would not score its own car so low and draw criticism.

EPA doesn't have the staff to keep up with the regulations they are technically responsible for. And don't get me started on the FDA.

Chris
09-07-2011, 11:43 AM
If I read this gibberish right... the SMOG number MIGHT come from a 2009 test... likely not the car we are driving right now.

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/cert/veh-cert/cert-tst/09actrr-late-verify-01-21-11.csv

Fiat500USA
09-07-2011, 12:01 PM
If I read this gibberish right... the SMOG number MIGHT come from a 2009 test... likely not the car we are driving right now.

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/cert/veh-cert/cert-tst/09actrr-late-verify-01-21-11.csv

That's the certification numbers for the Alfa Romeo 8c Competizione. I'll go on record saying I want my emissions to be exactly the same as that car! :love-struck:


http://youtu.be/vX93trcL57o

SeaDawg
09-07-2011, 01:49 PM
That makes no sense...the EPA most definitely does the testing. Car manufacturers do not do their own testing. I've never ever heard of that.

FIAT would not score its own car so low and draw criticism.

In other words, 'damned if they do and damned if they don't'. As someone else said, FIAT's aren't for everyone. From your initial post it would appear that you are infatuated with Honda's. Perhaps you should just go with them.

cmj912
09-07-2011, 02:43 PM
In other words, 'damned if they do and damned if they don't'. As someone else said, FIAT's aren't for everyone. From your initial post it would appear that you are infatuated with Honda's. Perhaps you should just go with them.

I just went to the EPA's website. It makes no sense. Bizarre!

do I want to defend Fiat? Not exactly. It just doesn't seem to make sense.

That said, I think you're right, it is rather moot. Customer Noz might just do well with a Honda.

PFVA63
09-07-2011, 04:13 PM
Hi,

It all seems a little confusing, but from what I understand the SMOG rating appears to be based on the California Air Resources Board ratings and according to this link (http://www.autotrader.com/research/article/buying-car/26186/exhausting-choices.jsp):

"California and a few other states require a smog index on the window sticker of every new car. A given model's relative pollution can be gauged with a quick look at a bar-graph rating on the window sticker. The index is simply a relative rating of compliance to the state's standards for hydrocarbons, not any other pollutants. Still, it's a good relative comparison to pay attention to when shopping. Just as with actual emissions equipment, automakers will usually include this smog index only in states where it's required."

Additionally, looking at the driveclean.ca.gov (http://www.driveclean.ca.gov/) website it appears (if I am understanding correctly) all LEV cars are by definition rated 4 on the SMOG score (http://www.driveclean.ca.gov/Know_the_Score/Understand_the_Smog_Score.php).

Finally, if you look at the EPA.gov Green Vehicle Guide (http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/Advsearch.do) you'll see that all the Fiat 500's listed are given a "Smartway" (http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/Advsearch.do) recommendation, where;

"The SmartWay designation is earned by those vehicles that have combined Air Pollution and Greenhouse Gas Scores that place them in the top tier (approximately the top 20%) of environmental performers. SmartWay Elite is reserved for the best of the best."

http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/SmartWay_2012.pdf

Regards

Pat

Chris
09-07-2011, 05:20 PM
Great post 63-

Displayed on scale as it is, I have seen it turn off windowshoppers... but sounds like they'd react that way to most cars if 4-10 is the LEV standard. Just means the bar is set high.

Noz
09-07-2011, 07:23 PM
I don't get the attacks in regards to "This perhaps isn't your car."

I know people who like this car and have bought this car feel the inherent need to protect their decision egos, but there is nothing wrong in admitting that the car doesn't perform well in a particular area.

I like the car, I wouldn't mind owning the car, but I'm man enough to admit there is a problem with the emissions and the thus the car...and I believe it's a completely legitimate concern and issue to bring up given the fact that in today's competitive world, there are better performing technologies at very similar price points.

It has nothing to do with being a window shopper. These scores translate to physical emissions levels that IF you are care about at all, you would take into consideration.

People cannot go around making excuses for proper issues just because other aspects of the car have merit...which we all recognize and acknowledge anyway.

Come of folks ...the attitude of "If you don't like it, get out" is REALLY OLD and doesn't solve any problems you want to scrub under the rug.

Perhaps the emissions rating of 4/10 for SMOG is flat out wrong and FIAT simply threw it out there....but that makes no sense either as this would bring up concerns for people like myself who are considering the car. Remember, 4/10 is BELOW the average for a new car in 2011/2012.

It would be nice to get a legitimate answer to the question. It would be nice to find out that FIAT has underscored their car.

Noz
09-07-2011, 07:26 PM
In other words, 'damned if they do and damned if they don't'. As someone else said, FIAT's aren't for everyone. From your initial post it would appear that you are infatuated with Honda's. Perhaps you should just go with them.

Not sure why you are getting so defensive...it's almost like insulted your mother or something.

Just because I compared the merits of one car has absolutely nothing to do with infatuation....cross shopping for cars when making a decision SHOULD be part of the process. Perhaps I'm missing something. I'm not a blind FIAT fan if that's what you were expecting. Nor a blind Honda fan.

cmj912
09-08-2011, 08:38 AM
I don't get the attacks in regards to "This perhaps isn't your car."

I know people who like this car and have bought this car feel the inherent need to protect their decision egos, but there is nothing wrong in admitting that the car doesn't perform well in a particular area.

I like the car, I wouldn't mind owning the car, but I'm man enough to admit there is a problem with the emissions and the thus the car...and I believe it's a completely legitimate concern and issue to bring up given the fact that in today's competitive world, there are better performing technologies at very similar price points.

It has nothing to do with being a window shopper. These scores translate to physical emissions levels that IF you are care about at all, you would take into consideration.

People cannot go around making excuses for proper issues just because other aspects of the car have merit...which we all recognize and acknowledge anyway.

Come of folks ...the attitude of "If you don't like it, get out" is REALLY OLD and doesn't solve any problems you want to scrub under the rug.

Perhaps the emissions rating of 4/10 for SMOG is flat out wrong and FIAT simply threw it out there....but that makes no sense either as this would bring up concerns for people like myself who are considering the car. Remember, 4/10 is BELOW the average for a new car in 2011/2012.

It would be nice to get a legitimate answer to the question. It would be nice to find out that FIAT has underscored their car.

I apologize if you've taken it that way if from anything I've posted to you. I think my answer wasn't defending my choice at all, rather a matter of practicality with regard to your concerns: if it is a high priority for you to purchase a vehicle with a better SMOG score and Fiat's is, in fact, truly a 4/10, perhaps it won't work for you. Different things are important to different people.

Noz
09-08-2011, 05:00 PM
I apologize if you've taken it that way if from anything I've posted to you. I think my answer wasn't defending my choice at all, rather a matter of practicality with regard to your concerns: if it is a high priority for you to purchase a vehicle with a better SMOG score and Fiat's is, in fact, truly a 4/10, perhaps it won't work for you. Different things are important to different people.

No worries...I just want to get down to the bottom of this so if indeed it's a better scoring vehicle, it's a strong option for me.

buysfiat
09-08-2011, 10:30 PM
Fiat 500 "Meets Federal Tier 2 Bin 5 emission requirements and ULEV II requirements in California, Massachusetts, New York, Maine, Vermont,
Connecticut, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, New Jersey, Oregon and Washington."
http://www.media.chrysler.com/dcxms/assets/specs/2012_Fiat_500_Specs.pdf

Abarthlyness
09-09-2011, 10:08 AM
Fiat 500 "Meets Federal Tier 2 Bin 5 emission requirements and ULEV II requirements in California, Massachusetts, New York, Maine, Vermont,
Connecticut, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, New Jersey, Oregon and Washington."
http://www.media.chrysler.com/dcxms/assets/specs/2012_Fiat_500_Specs.pdf

Based on this, it looks like a pretty clean car to me. If it meets these stringent regquirements for "ULEV II" how is it possibl;e for the car to truly score a 4/10, which is considered below average?

Noz, no offense intended. I hope you DO get the littel FIAT!! Just saying that if this (tail pipe emissions) is something you put a lot of weight on, there are technically much "cleaner" choices out there.

It sounds to me like that 4/10 rating is a load of BS though...

Noz
09-10-2011, 03:44 AM
Based on this, it looks like a pretty clean car to me. If it meets these stringent regquirements for "ULEV II" how is it possibl;e for the car to truly score a 4/10, which is considered below average?

Noz, no offense intended. I hope you DO get the littel FIAT!! Just saying that if this (tail pipe emissions) is something you put a lot of weight on, there are technically much "cleaner" choices out there.

It sounds to me like that 4/10 rating is a load of BS though...

No offense taken.

It could very well be the 4/10 score on the sticker is BS...in which case FIAT hopefully should be up in arms about it!

Indeed if it meets ULEV II standards, 4/10 is wrong.

Here is an interesting chart:

http://www.greenercars.org/highlights_byclass_sc.htm

The higher the BIN, the dirtier the emissions. The FIAT...being a Tier 2 Bin 5 is in the class of Yaris, Mini Cooper, and, Mazda2, and Elantra. All these cars are ULEV II, Bin 5.

But if we look at this chart here:

http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/AP_Score_2012.pdf

If shows that's Bin 5 is LEV II...not ULEV II. A 4/10 puts it at an even lower category of LEV II Opt 1 and Bin 6.

A score of 9/10 (such as with the CRZ) puts it in a category of PZEV.

This is confusing to say the least and frankly the information is contradictory because from the EPA site, we can't have ULEV II unless you are Bin 4...yet the first link I gave shows ULEV II standards being at a Bin 5. Go figure. Something isn't correct here.

NOW if you go to the EPA's smog score website, the FIAT gets a 5/10 for SMOG and 8/10 for GHG.

To compare, the Fiesta gets 6/10 and 8/10...the CRZ gets 9/10 and 8/10.

These are ALL for California regs....

So as best as I can tell, the FIAT is a Tier 2, Bin 5 vehicle which puts it as a LEV II.

Here is the link for look ups...

http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/Index.do

Fiat500MN
09-30-2011, 01:24 PM
The 500 EV, as of right now, should be hitting showfloors this time next year.

Have Trumpet Will Travel
11-02-2011, 11:17 PM
Have had our 500 POP / 5-speed manual for 10 days, today EVIC showed (first 63 miles on 2nd tank) 47.3 mpg & 41 mph, drove through town, parked it and EVIC indicated 46.6 mpg at average speed of 40 mph, so I'm hoping for mid-forties when I fill-up. Will post under Mileage Increasing With Age (of car) thread by 11/9/11 HTWT