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Guest
01-17-2011, 03:09 PM
I have a dealer who has taken a deposit to be on a waiting list for the waiting list for the Abarth. I am changing my car in 12 months and am wondering at the lack of recent rumours if the Abarth is EVER coming to our shores! If not then Im going to have to look elsewhere.... Anyone have any insider info??? Thanks

Fiat500USA
01-17-2011, 08:57 PM
author="fidgell">
I have a dealer who has taken a deposit to be on a waiting list for the waiting list for the Abarth. I am changing my car in 12 months and am wondering at the lack of recent rumours if the Abarth is EVER coming to our shores! If not then Im going to have to look elsewhere.... Anyone have any insider info??? Thanks



Hi fidgell,

Welcome to the forum!

The car is definitely coming here, so no worries. I just posted a video on Marchionne where he talks about the car. We're expecting it here first quarter of 2012.

Guest
01-18-2011, 04:26 PM
Cant open the link in work.... Any mention of the engine the Abarth is getting?? Do you know what RON of gas it will need? Thanks

Fiat500USA
01-19-2011, 02:04 AM
author="fidgell">
Cant open the link in work.... Any mention of the engine the Abarth is getting?? Do you know what RON of gas it will need? Thanks



The Abarth will have a 1.4L MultiAir turbo, similar to the MiTo Quadrifoglio. It is not the same engine in the current European Abarth. The European car uses Unleaded, at least 95
R.O.N. (Specification EN 228) which I believe is 91 octane as listed on our US pumps.

Marchionne speaks (http://fiat500usa.blogspot.com/2011/01/sergio-marchionne-at-2011-detroit-auto.htm)

5hundy
01-30-2011, 11:59 AM
Planning on trading in the PE once the Abarth arrives (as long as its south of $30k)

Gavin
01-30-2011, 06:02 PM
I plan to trade in the PE for the EV when it comes out

Gavin

Mike S
01-30-2011, 07:13 PM
I plan on trading the PE for the 500C in 6 months then 6 months later the Abarth. If the Alfa is out by then I may get one of those to. I'm not rich but I have priorities before I die.

Gavin
01-30-2011, 07:21 PM
Hey Chris...

If the Abarth is coming early 2012, when is the electric coming?

I had thought it was Pop/sport/lounge in early 2011, convert 6 months later, EV six months later, then Abarth...is it now Pop, convert, Abarth then electric?

Thanks

Gavin

Gavin
01-30-2011, 07:40 PM
Mmmmm, from the Wall Street Journal...

<quote>Pop, Sport and Lounge will be joined by the convertible Cabrio in the second quarter. The Abarth arrives in the first quarter of calendar year 2012 followed by an all electric vehicle in the fourth quarter.

</quote>

so that is actually fine by me...2 years with the PE and then get the electric...I wonder if I can do a two year lease on the PE?

Gavin

CaliberSRT4
01-31-2011, 12:24 AM
I think we were fooled by that Autoblog article Gavin. The one which stated the EV would launch before the Abarth:
http://green.autoblog.com/2010/11/19/fiat-500-abarth-coming-to-u-s-all-electric-500-bev/

All other evidence seems to refute the claims in that article. The prevailing evidence points to the Abarth being scheduled before the EV, and the EV landing sometime in late 2012.

Autoblog has screwed me for the last time, haha.

Fiat500USA
01-31-2011, 12:00 PM
Here is something you might find interesting;)

http://fiat-500-usa-forum-archives.965414.n3.nabble.com/file/n2389808/Timeline.jpg

sketch
01-31-2011, 07:46 PM
Very interesting indeed... I thought the 500c was some time off!

And I've just proven to myself that I still don't realise it's 2011 sometimes... :P

sam500
02-03-2011, 03:14 PM
I'm definitely keeping an eye out for the Abarth, and will likely trade my Prima for one. Maybe if the esseesse is around, I'll go for the extra ponies. So excited to see what FIAT USA does with them :)

sjmst
02-03-2011, 03:15 PM
I want 3 500's my Prima, a cab for the wife and an Abarth!

Gavin
02-03-2011, 03:19 PM
I just hope the EV has the fixed glass roof :)...with Leather seats:) all the things I can't get with my PE.

Gavin


yes i obsessed with that roof...will likely be even more obsessed after owning the PE for 2 years wanting those 2 inches back in head room that the sunroof is taking from me.

sjmst
02-03-2011, 03:22 PM
Gavin, I called and got a fixed glass sunroof on my PE..<smiley image='anim_jump.gif'/>







JUST KIDDING!

Does the sunroof really take away headroom? It flips up and OVER the roof...

Gavin
02-03-2011, 03:53 PM
looking for exact numbers...think it is 39 without sunroof, 37 with sunroof...

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/hatchbacks/1101_2012_fiat_500/index.html

one reviews give exact numbers...will keep looking.

sketch
02-03-2011, 04:05 PM
It still has to sit above your head when it's in place‚€”glass, hardware, headliner. Doesn't matter how it opens (unless you're in the back seat, anyway).

IIRC, the figures were 37.6" with the sunroof, 39" without.

Okay, I was close, 38.9" without. It's in the specs.

http://fiat500usa.blogspot.com/2011/01/fiat-500-complete-vehicle.html

jvsgabriel
02-03-2011, 08:27 PM
Are you really going to have someone sitting in the back seat? Just angle the seat back more and lower the seat a bit. I am sure you will find a comfortable seating position. And if you do have to have someone in the backseat, make sure they stay on the passenger side. hahahaha.

But can't wait to see and test drive the Abarth. I too want to make my very own video piece like Jeremy Clarkson on Top Gear, calling it a pet mouse that kill burglars. I think if he can fit, most anyone can too. He's about 6'5" or so.

sketch
02-04-2011, 01:23 AM
Right... that's what I'm saying. The way the sunroof opens only affects rear seat headroom.

I'm confident that if Clarkson fits, I'll fit. That's actually probably the biggest thing that told me "you'll fit, don't worry about it". I can't recall whether the one he drove had a sunroof, but he's got three inches on me, anyway.

CaliberSRT4
02-04-2011, 02:24 AM
Here is a link to the Top Gear Fiat 500 review:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpAFi9nIJVQ


The Fiat 500 he drives in the beginning is equipped with a sunroof. The Abarth Esseesse he drives for most of the episode has no sunroof.

sketch
02-04-2011, 02:40 AM
Thanks for the link! I think I'll just watch the entire episode when I get home ;)

Guest
02-24-2011, 05:55 PM
Well, the wait for the Scorpion badge is killing me.... and now I spot the new Focus ST on the horizon about the same time. At the same anticipated price its going to be a tough one to decide. If FIAT shift this forward id say Abarth for sure, but sat next to each other in a heads up fight for my cash - I dont know anymore!!!

small car lover
02-24-2011, 08:10 PM
I've been watching the ST with interest as well. A couple things come to mind that may be a factor. It looks like the ST is going to be positioned as a fairly loaded sport touring car (ST) not a minimalist rally inspired RS kind of car. Saying that, I suspect the ST will be priced a significant bump over a loaded Focus Titanium. I'm speculating the ST is going to MSRP approaching $30k since a loaded Titanium approaches MSRP of $27k.

The big question will be the price of the Abarth. Low to mid 20's or High 20's?

The other issue is they are really different classes of vehicles. The Focus being Much larger and at least 500lbs heavier. It will be interesting to see how many buyers cross shop between these two very different vehicles.

The upcoming Hyundai Veloster turbo will be a interesting vehicle positioned in between the 500 and the Focus ST in terms of size and weight. That looks to be a 2600 lb car about the size of the 3rd generation Acura Integra. The Civic Si will be getting the Acura TSX motor. There are a number of interesting vehicles on the horizon. The 500 seems to be in its own class in terms of size and weight however. Interesting times...

Guest
02-24-2011, 09:48 PM
author="Small Car Lover">
I've been watching the ST with interest as well. A couple things come to mind that may be a factor. It looks like the ST is going to be positioned as a fairly loaded sport touring car (ST) not a minimalist rally inspired RS kind of car. Saying that, I suspect the ST will be priced a significant bump over a loaded Focus Titanium. I'm speculating the ST is going to MSRP approaching $30k since a loaded Titanium approaches MSRP of $27k.

The big question will be the price of the Abarth. Low to mid 20's or High 20's?

The other issue is they are really different classes of vehicles. The Focus being Much larger and at least 500lbs heavier. It will be interesting to see how many buyers cross shop between these two very different vehicles.

The upcoming Hyundai Veloster turbo will be a interesting vehicle positioned in between the 500 and the Focus ST in terms of size and weight. That looks to be a 2600 lb car about the size of the 3rd generation Acura Integra. The Civic Si will be getting the Acura TSX motor. There are a number of interesting vehicles on the horizon. The 500 seems to be in its own class in terms of size and weight however. Interesting times...


I hear what you say, but with the fun/performance car segment not being so large in NA (Im from the UK moved to Canada 8yrs ago), the competition forces buyers to expand their selection. Direct competition for the Abarth over here is really limited to the Golf GTi, Mazdaspeed3 etc, but with the 500 in my opinion costing CAD30k so probably 26k US its going to meet head on with the Focus. Now, I love the Abarth and drove one recently on a UK trip (albeit the less powerful Euro version if rumours here are correct), but it was somewhat "basic". It was great fun, but felt cheap and unrefined. I have a thing for unconventional sports cars having most recently owned an E30 M3 and a Z3M Coupe (both VERY good cars but not too practical). I would NEVER have looked at a Ford until I saw the ST at the motorshow and actually felt embarrased for writing it off previously. Ive owned only 1 Ford in my life, an RS2000 (European car from the 70s - look it up truely fantastic in its day) and have never seen another Id like - unless they resurrect the Puma and put a decent motor in it! Id like an STI or EVO but its not happening so with CAD30k the budget I feel the ST and Abarth are favorites. I feel the Abarth will be put back, and when the ST comes there WILL be a line up so if it gets here on time that may swing me, and after trying my friends Focus RS500 (which scared the life outta me) I may want right in. The Velostar doesnt do it for me on any level so I cant find a third choice but maybe the Toyota coupe will be worth a look too. If the Abarth came out tomorrow i WOULD buy one then, but its only in the planning stage for early next year and then there will be so few I wouldnt get exactly what I wanted and I think at that price it may be a compromise too far. A Fiesta ST would be even better but wont happen so its down to who comes up with the car first and Im certain that Ford will be there at the post.... BUT if they both came out the same month??? Who knows, but test drives and careful consideration are not an option in a shoot out with the hard to find and massively sort after. Exciting times indeed, but my guess will see me sitting inthe ST for a couple of years before buying the Abarth Coupe in 2014 ! ! ! Until then the JCW Mini remains with me, and I HATE HATE HATE it......

small car lover
02-24-2011, 11:06 PM
All good points. I understand your interest in a Fiesta ST. I have owned a number of fords and have been happy with all of them. When the Mazda2 came out I was really excited about the light weight platform. I was chomping at the bit for a MS2. Then news came out Mazda had no plans for such a vehicle and I was quite disappointed. I don't happen to have any interest in the extensive infotainment packages integrated into so many vehicles today, and Ford seems to be a focusing quite a bit in this area. With buying a new ford I feel I'd be paying for extensive entertainment/communications equipment I would rather not have and never use. Simplicity is a major attraction for me to the 500. Fiat has made the Blue and Me package quite inoffensive, and easy to ignore. My dream car would be a Arial Atom with a weather tight driver compartment, a windshield wiper, heat and A/C. A commuter that could be track day'ed. http://n3.nabble.com/images/smiley/anim_claps.gif

RS2000 and RS500, both great cars! Lots of fun http://n3.nabble.com/images/smiley/smiley_good.gif

sketch
02-25-2011, 02:33 AM
The Mini Cooper S is the only direct competitor to the Abarth, I think. The rest may indeed be cross-shopped by some, but then again I cross-shopped a Prius with a GLI and an A3. Realistically, they're in a different segment.

Considering the 500 Sport undercuts the $20,700 Mini Cooper by a few thousand, I'd expect the Abarth to undercut the $23,700 Cooper S similarly. Maybe $21,500 isn't a bad estimate.

CaliberSRT4
02-25-2011, 11:03 AM
I think you can get a Caterham with a roof.

My thoughts are similar to yours. My dream car would probably be a Caterham or Atom. Both the Focus ST and Fiat 500 Abarth do pique my interest. It would indeed to cool to see sport versions of Mazda2/Fiesta, but that probably won't happen. Although I did read some rumors about the Fiesta getting a new turbo engine, but that might be for fuel economy reasons and not offer much additional performance.

I also hold out hope for a rumored new SRT4. I would be happy if it offered more power and performance than Focus ST and Cruze SS for a similar or lower price.

sketch
02-25-2011, 01:39 PM
<quote author="Small Car Lover">
My dream car would be a Arial Atom with a weather tight driver compartment, a windshield wiper, heat and A/C.
</quote>
If this ever happens, I will literally eat my own shoes.

CaliberSRT4
02-25-2011, 01:47 PM
author="sketch">

author="Small Car Lover">
My dream car would be a Arial Atom with a weather tight driver compartment, a windshield wiper, heat and A/C.

If this ever happens, I will literally eat my own shoes.

One could argue that they are better without those luxuries, as they add weight. I find it funny how Caterham lists their options by how much weight they add.

"This one however has a windscreen, roof and even a heater, adding a whopping 18Kg -- Caterham list options for the Superlight by weight as well as price -- so I made up for it by packing light and skipping lunch"
http://www.pistonheads.com/roadtests/doc.asp?c=112&i=12839

sketch
02-25-2011, 01:56 PM
Not only could one argue that, that's Ariel's entire raison d'être.

The reason Lotus gives you power windows on the Exige S is not that they're trying to give you luxury, it's that the components of a power window system are lighter than those of a hand-cranked window. And that's Lotus.

Considering Ariel doesn't even give you <i>bodywork</i> for your £30,000 (or £150,000, if you want the V8), don't hold your breath. It's a lot more than just a cockpit and a wiper and an air conditioner, it's an airbag and all the reinforcement a car needs to meet American safety standards.

Consider this: the Fiat Nuova 500 we all love and are probably buying weighs 1074 kg. The original Fiat 500 from 1957 weighs 499 kg. The Ariel Atom V8 weighs 550 kg. Now, do you really want all that extra stuff? <smiley image='smiley_whistling.gif'/>

small car lover
02-25-2011, 03:41 PM
As I was typing that sentence about my dream car realized I was describing the Caterham. Although it might be a bit of a stretch to call the Caterham Roadsport weathertight. I haven't seen a roof, although I think you may be able to strap a bit of fabric over the roll cage and windscreen. For some reason I can't quite warm up to the Caterham. I don't know why. Perhaps I can't warm up to convertibles, and I perceive the Caterham akin to a vintage British convertible. I can't defend it, no logic to my perception of this.

The Exige is wonderful, and very impressive that a 2000lb car meets all fed safety regs. But way out of my price range at ~$70K. Unfortunately the slightly more affordable elise gets back to my convertible issue. Maybe I need therapy...

My hazy understanding of cars like the Atom and the Caterham is they don't have VIN numbers and need to be registered as kit cars to be driven on public roads? That's how the can avoid all almost fed standards?

CaliberSRT4
02-25-2011, 04:08 PM
author="Small Car Lover">
As I was typing that sentence about my dream car realized I was describing the Caterham. Although it might be a bit of a stretch to call the Caterham Roadsport weathertight. I haven't seen a roof, although I think you may be able to strap a bit of fabric over the roll cage and windscreen. For some reason I can't quite warm up to the Caterham. I don't know why. Perhaps I can't warm up to convertibles, and I perceive the Caterham akin to a vintage British convertible. I can't defend it, no logic to my perception of this.

The Exige is wonderful, and very impressive that a 2000lb car meets all fed safety regs. But way out of my price range at ~$70K. Unfortunately the slightly more affordable elise gets back to my convertible issue. Maybe I need therapy...

My hazy understanding of cars like the Atom and the Caterham is they don't have VIN numbers and need to be registered as kit cars to be driven on public roads? That's how the can avoid all almost fed standards?

Have you seen this review of the Caterham?

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bhnE2rAWuA">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bhnE2rAWuA</a>

I believe the 500 Abarth Esseesse was faster than the Elise on the Top Gear test track, see the vid from my post at the top of the page.

The Caterham and Atom are road legal in the UK. Not sure about the US though. Probably a kit like you said.

RacerRon
02-25-2011, 04:33 PM
Here's my two cents worth. If Fiat/Chrysler can hold the price of the 500 Abarth below $24,000 they will sell all they can make here in the U.S. with 170 hp; and without making customers buy that Esse Esse box of parts like they do in Europe. I don't think U.S. customers would "get it." I have never owned an Abarth car before, so I am waiting for the Abarth 500 to arrive.

http://fiat-500-usa-forum-archives.965414.n3.nabble.com/file/n2577969/esse_esse.jpgAs for other small sports cars, I love my '94 Mazda Miata R version and I like the Lotus Elise/Exige, but they are out of my price range. I once owned a Lotus Europa Twin Cam in the 70s and tried to use it as a daily driver, but ended up having to fix it every weekend. I thought about installing a net underneath it to catch all the parts that fell off. After the second stub axle sheared and the water pump started leaking after 30,000 miles, I got rid of it and bought a new X1/9 in '78. Not perfect, but much more reliable and it never left me stranded. If Fiat had done an Abarth version of the X1/9 and added more power, it would have done much better into the 1980s.

I see the Caterham as an expensive weekend toy. A good weather car to have fun in and maybe autocross.

RacerRon
02-25-2011, 04:38 PM
I believe the 500 Abarth Esseesse was faster than the Elise on the Top Gear test track, see the vid from my post at the top of the page.


The Abarth EsseEsse was faster around the Top Gear test track, but the Elise 's time was on a wet track. The 190 hp Elise is faster than the 160 hp Abarth, and the Elise is lighter too.

Mike S
02-25-2011, 04:51 PM
I'm sorry but 0 - 62 in 7.4 seconds does not make it very quick. I've said before that my stock Volvo wagon was faster 0-60 6.2 seconds and after reprogramming the ecu 5.6 seconds.

I want a 500 that is faster than what they offer. I'm sure the stock 500 sport will be fun to drive anyway. I think if it has Abarth script it should mean something and not be a decoration.

CaliberSRT4
02-25-2011, 04:55 PM
author="RacerRon">


I believe the 500 Abarth Esseesse was faster than the Elise on the Top Gear test track, see the vid from my post at the top of the page.


The Abarth EsseEsse was faster around the Top Gear test track, but the Elise 's time was on a wet track. The 190 hp Elise is faster than the 160 hp Abarth, and the Elise is lighter too.

It was? Usually TG denotes wet times. Maybe the track was only a bit damp?

Guest
02-25-2011, 06:24 PM
Sadly Ive been told the Focus is probably late and slated for early 2013 so the race is on and Fiat may actually get there first.... I agree the Abarth is not as quick as you would expect but believe me after driving an Esseesse in the UK last week, its not slow by any standards and to put it into the 6secs catagory would make it IMHO unuseable. It doesnt claim to be the worlds fastest but it was one of the most fun - and plenty enough power for the chasis.

I only wish I could get the ST outta my head now....

small car lover
02-25-2011, 08:31 PM
I have wondered about that 7.4 sec number myself. It does not quite add up. My '95 GS-R weighs 2650lbs, has 170hp, 128ft-lbs and has a published 0-60 time of 7.2sec. I would expect the european Abarth SS to be quicker than the GS-R, having more torque, 160hp and quite a bit less weight.

In any case I have a hope for the US Abarth. If we get the 170hp Multiair turbo as promised, I believe this is the same motor used in the Alfa Mito Quadrifoglio. Doing a little research o that motor, there is a Novitec ECU reprogramming (http://de.novitec.nl/webshop/en/alfa-romeo/mito/engine/Default.asp?prodID=127) chip available in europe to raise HP to 195.

Obviously the Novitec chip wont work in the US car, but I hoping a US tuner like Jet will develop something similar. A 195hp Abarth would be quite quick, comparable to a MS3 in terms of power to weight. The MS3 (http://www.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/displayPage.action?pageParameter=modelsSpecs&vehicleCode=MS3)weighs 3270lbs with 263hp = 12.4lbs/hp

I would expect the US Abarth come in somewhat heavier than the US 500 Sport, so Ill guess around 2450lbs. At 195hp this would yield about 12.5 lbs/hp.

Having driven th

CaliberSRT4
02-25-2011, 09:49 PM
My car is 3189/285 = 11.2 lbs/hp

As for the Esseesse, EVO magazine tested it at 6.9 seconds 0-60. That sounds correct to me based on the power and weight. Considering they did a real-world test, I have no reason to doubt that figure.

Here's a link to the EVO comparison between the Essseesse and Cooper S:
http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/cargrouptests/234172/abarth_500_esseesse_v_mini_cooper_s.html

small car lover
02-25-2011, 10:10 PM
Thanks for the link. Good review. Interesting the Abarth SS is about 230lbs heavier than the regular 500, in european trim. I wonder if the US model is going to gain that much? Hmm.

No shortage of power in the SRT4 <smiley image='smiley_good.gif'/>

CaliberSRT4
02-25-2011, 10:31 PM
<quote author="Small Car Lover">
Thanks for the link. Good review. Interesting the Abarth SS is about 230lbs heavier than the regular 500, in european trim. I wonder if the US model is going to gain that much? Hmm.

No shortage of power in the SRT4 <smiley image='smiley_good.gif'/>
</quote>
I wonder about that too. If the engineers couldn't fit a 6-speed into the regular 500 without cutting into the safety structure, will they also have trouble fitting the turbo plumbing and intercoolers into the Abarth? If they shaved off some of the structure they could save some weight and increase the workable space, but maybe that wouldn't be considered a fair compromise. They could also take out some of the sound-deadening on the Abarth model to save weight.

sketch
02-25-2011, 11:03 PM
Considering some of the rumours I've heard about power output for the Abarth, they might be doing a significant amount of reworking on it for the US market. I also vaguely remember hearing the Abarth will actually be an introduction to the next generation car?

small car lover
02-26-2011, 12:21 AM
I was having a hard time reconciling the evo test results in my head, so I re-read that review again and noticed at the very bottom of the page, after of all the performance results it notes "Conditions: Wet". I suspect that impacted the results of both cars. For example I have seen the Cooper S given a 6.2 sec to 60 <a href="http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezflow_site/storage/original/application/554f6255a0ecf8bb6535b8cba1d7f80f">here</a> versus the 6.6 in the evo review. I'm still thinking the Abarth SS might be a little quicker to 60 then the 6.9, at least in the dry.

CaliberSRT4
02-26-2011, 12:33 AM
<quote author="Small Car Lover">
I was having a hard time reconciling the evo test results in my head, so I re-read that review again and noticed at the very bottom of the page, after of all the performance results it notes "Conditions: Wet". I suspect that impacted the results of both cars. For example I have seen the Cooper S given a 6.2 sec to 60 <a href="http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezflow_site/storage/original/application/554f6255a0ecf8bb6535b8cba1d7f80f">here</a> versus the 6.6 in the evo review. I'm still thinking the Abarth SS might be a little quicker to 60 then the 6.9, at least in the dry.
</quote>
That's a very good point, I didn't catch that when I read the article. Dry conditions should shave a couple of tenths off the 0-60 times.

Out of curiosity, where did you see the Cooper S as having a 6.2 seconds 0-60? I've seen 6.5 and 6.6, but nothing as low as 6.2. Are you sure you aren't confusing the S with the John Cooper Works?

CaliberSRT4
02-26-2011, 12:36 AM
Oh sorry, I missed the link in your post at first. I see that the link goes to Car & Driver but the link doesn't seem to work for me?

small car lover
02-26-2011, 12:45 AM
The link came out of this comparo (http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparisons/07q2/2007_vw_gti_vs._subaru_impreza_wrx_tr_mini_cooper_ s_nissan_sentra_se-r_spec_v_mazdaspeed_3_grand_touring-comparison_tests/2007_mini_cooper_s_page_2), then scroll to the downloads and click on "Powertrain Chart". I had to use Internet Explorer because the Powertrain Chart would not open in Chrome for me. Hopefully that will work for you...

CaliberSRT4
02-26-2011, 01:40 AM
author="Small Car Lover">
The link came out of this comparo (http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparisons/07q2/2007_vw_gti_vs._subaru_impreza_wrx_tr_mini_cooper_ s_nissan_sentra_se-r_spec_v_mazdaspeed_3_grand_touring-comparison_tests/2007_mini_cooper_s_page_2), then scroll to the downloads and click on "Powertrain Chart". I had to use Internet Explorer because the Powertrain Chart would not open in Chrome for me. Hopefully that will work for you...
I was using Chrome on Mac Snow Leopard, so it definitely didn't work lol. No matter, I can see they claim 6.2 seconds in the article text.

Other publications seem to be getting 6.5 seconds, for example:
http://www.insideline.com/mini/cooper/2007/full-test-2007-mini-cooper-s.html
http://www.edmunds.com/mini/cooper/2009/

And there are some other places getting 7 seconds or more 0-60.

It's possible that Car & Driver had a very good driver on a very well-prepped drag strip in order to set such a good time. Based on this brief video, that appears to be the case:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ3xJL2JQBs

It seems like the differences between the cars could be consistent, whether faster or slower overall. So perhaps Car & Driver could have achieved 6.5 seconds with an Esseesse.

small car lover
02-26-2011, 12:03 PM
Caliber, I agree with your points 100%. Your point about C&D times vs other publications is very valid. For little arm chair comparisons like these, I think it's important to use the same source. Just like you point out, not much point in comparing times from different publications that use different drivers, test facilities, and possibly different methods. In the end, we are only trying to get a relative comparison between cars so we can take the number back to a frame of reference we are familiar with (a car we have driven). A published number number doesn't have much meaning to me unless I can relate it back to something I have personal experience with.

I have been reading C&D (and others) since I was kid (25+ years ago). Back in the day, in the US, there was Road and Track, Car and Driver and Motor Trend. R&T focused more on the high end while C&D focused on more common stuff. MT was the running joke. So my frame of reference has developed around the C&D results. I have a harder time evaluating results from other publications that I am not as familiar with.

Thanks for the links and the discussion. It's great to get additional perspectives.

Cheers!

CaliberSRT4
02-26-2011, 12:57 PM
author="Small Car Lover">
Caliber, I agree with your points 100%. Your point about C&D times vs other publications is very valid. For little arm chair comparisons like these, I think it's important to use the same source. Just like you point out, not much point in comparing times from different publications that use different drivers, test facilities, and possibly different methods. In the end, we are only trying to get a relative comparison between cars so we can take the number back to a frame of reference we are familiar with (a car we have driven). A published number number doesn't have much meaning to me unless I can relate it back to something I have personal experience with.

I have been reading C&D (and others) since I was kid (25+ years ago). Back in the day, in the US, there was Road and Track, Car and Driver and Motor Trend. R&T focused more on the high end while C&D focused on more common stuff. MT was the running joke. So my frame of reference has developed around the C&D results. I have a harder time evaluating results from other publications that I am not as familiar with.

Thanks for the links and the discussion. It's great to get additional perspectives.

Cheers!

That's exactly what I was getting at. Very well put.

I trust C&D's results as I consider them a very reputable source. I enjoy their comparisons, lightning laps, etc. and usually find their results to be spot-on. But I figured when I saw 6.2 seconds for the Cooper S that they must have had an amazing launch and shift in order to hit that number, so I looked at the video even though it didn't show much. FWD cars are very tricky to launch well and the acceleration times are slower. So the variance in 0-60 times does not come as that much of a surprise to me.

I'll be very interested to see a possible C&D comparison between the Abarth and Cooper S (or mini MINI S?). I thoroughly enjoyed the EVO comparison, and it seemed to hit perfectly on all the points. Of course, with the differences in wheelbase and body proportions between the two, the results are really no surprise.

Glad to hear you appreciate my very limited perspective lol. <smiley image='smiley_grin.gif'/> I'm sure you have considerably more real-world experience than I do. I mostly just read up what I can, haha.

cogtooth
03-06-2011, 01:37 PM
Anyone read a good direct comparison of an Abarth and a sport? I understand the cosmetic (such as seats) and horsepower differences, but how about the suspension and handling. I don't care too much about the 0-60 times, but I would hate to buy a sport and find the Abarth is way better at steering through the curves. I'm kind of thinking that being able to use regular gas with better economy might be a better choice if I don't sacrifice too much cornering fun with a sport. Are the ground effects lower on an Abarth going to mean that I would continue to hit a front air dam when I go into my garage, similar to my current car?

Mike S
03-06-2011, 03:11 PM
You should easily be able to modify the sport to handle as well as you like with aftermarket parts.

CaliberSRT4
03-07-2011, 12:05 AM
author="cogtooth">
Anyone read a good direct comparison of an Abarth and a sport? I understand the cosmetic (such as seats) and horsepower differences, but how about the suspension and handling. I don't care too much about the 0-60 times, but I would hate to buy a sport and find the Abarth is way better at steering through the curves. I'm kind of thinking that being able to use regular gas with better economy might be a better choice if I don't sacrifice too much cornering fun with a sport. Are the ground effects lower on an Abarth going to mean that I would continue to hit a front air dam when I go into my garage, similar to my current car?

The sport suspension is the same as the normal suspension, it is just tuned differently. The Abarth will be more serious and handle quite a bit better, for sure. Wider, stickier tires; a .5 inch lowered ride height, performance brake pads, bigger brakes.

If the US version has the esseesse changes as standard or available, the change is yet more dramatic. Even better tires, brakes, brake pads, shock absorbers, and lower springs.

What is your current car that rubs going into your garage? Unless it's something crazy, I'm guessing the Abarth would rub as well. My car definitely scrapes sometimes, and I go up steeper drives at a more careful pace. But it doesn't bother me much, and there has been no damage as of yet, just a lot of scrape marks on the plastic shield underneath the front of the car.


author="Mike S">
You should easily be able to modify the sport to handle as well as you like with aftermarket parts.

To modify the sport to be like the Abarth would seem like a lot of effort and money. I think it would make more sense to simply buy the Abarth, and have a full warranty on all those suspension components and everything.

CaliberSRT4
03-07-2011, 01:21 AM
Not a comparison of Sport vs Abarth, but here is a comparison of the Abarth vs its competition in Europe that you might enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m81afvOq4yM

Mike S
03-07-2011, 08:56 AM
He wanted handling AND fuel economy.

Sway bars, shocks and tires would be much cheaper than an upgrade to an Abarth.

fredfrey
03-07-2011, 09:20 AM
I've driven the Abarth 500 in Holland and it was a blast. Keep in mind, it was not the SS version (they are very limited in EU) and the Euro Abarth is going to be less powerful then the US (SS Spec) version. Sure, the US version can be tuned somewhat by modifying the ECU chip, but that will not compare to the turbo and all the other modifications. My prima will be going up for sale as soon as the Abarth is available.

CaliberSRT4
03-07-2011, 06:34 PM
author="Mike S">
He wanted handling AND fuel economy.

Sway bars, shocks and tires would be much cheaper than an upgrade to an Abarth.

The Abarth should have good fuel economy. First, to address his comment about the fuel type. Even the regular 500s are recommended to run Premium fuel, but can also use 87 octane (same as my SRT4). So the fuel price per gallon will be the same for the normal 500 and the Abarth.

Fuel economy will shed a few mpg, but that is still good fuel economy when you are talking 30+ mpg. My car gets 3 mpg less than the equivalent manual transmission 2.4L Caliber. So only a loss of 3 mpg with all the extra or changed body components (hood, grille/front fascia, rear diffuser, rear spoiler, side skirts), 19" wheels and wider stickier tires. 100 additional torque and over 100 additional horsepower. Plus all the suspension, exhaust, cooling, bigger brakes, larger sport seats, and countless other modifications.

To sum up my point. If the Abarth is similar to other performance models on the market as far as the price difference and fuel economy difference compared to the lower models, it would definitely be the better choice over modifying the lower model. All the modifications packed in, the OEM look and performance, all the testing, the full warranty backing, the resale value, etc. That's just my viewpoint though. Maybe he would rather just have a sport with a few mods here or there. That doesn't sound like much fun to me, compared to an Abarth (or just keeping the Sport stock), but to each his own.

edit: By the way, you make it seem simple, but I'm sure you realize the Abarth is a complete package. If he upgrades the handling, the brakes will still be inadequate and he will need to upgrade those too. Also, to cope with the extra g's you would definitely want some sport bucket seats to hug your body during turns (like those that come with the Abarth). Then I bet you before long, he will be yearning for a bit more pull. I am familiar with how the modding game goes. Eventually the costs, time, and issues start adding up and you end up wishing you had bought the performance model.

RacerRon
03-07-2011, 08:07 PM
Fred, finally took a look at all the nice Alfas and Fiats you have. Nice collection. I am waiting for the 500 Abarth too. Hope more information comes out about the U.S. version this summer.

My 1978 X1/9 with Ansa exhaust.

http://fiat-500-usa-forum-archives.965414.n3.nabble.com/file/n2648653/my_x19_small.jpg

Mike S
03-07-2011, 08:37 PM
Not to argue, but it is simple. It's even easier now.

It the 70's I had to go to Torino to get cheap Abarth parts for my 124 Spider. There were a few parts Abarth would not sell because they needed them for the factory cars still in competition. No IRS for example. My carry on luggage had a header slung over my shoulder with carbs and cams and pistons in my bags. It's much easier now. The factory was so cool.

Add a turbo, modify an ECU. It's so easy. I don't want an Abarth. I want what the Abarth SHOULD be.

sketch
03-07-2011, 08:38 PM
Then buy an old Abarth.

small car lover
03-07-2011, 09:04 PM
I guess it depends on each person's idea of easy, but to get a complete package by taking a 100hp motor to 170+ (what the US Abarth is promised to be) seems to be more then just bolt on a turbo and a ECU upgrade. Usually end up being faced with injectors, potential fuel pump upgrade, clutch/flywheel, cooling issues, the tranny getting stressed with the big torque increase (syncros), potentially more torque steer then you want as the geometry was not designed for the extra torque, brake upgrade, springs, dampers, swaybar upgrade, wheel/tire upgrade. A complete package involves a sig investment. The necessary aftermarket parts may not all be available.

Having said all that, I totally understand wanting what you want. Just be prepared it may cost time and money and effort to get it.

Mike S
03-07-2011, 09:18 PM
I've had them. It's time for some of the new stuff. Abarth is a name Fiat purchased that meant something at the time. It has lost its meaning.

I'm really happy with my Volvo wagon but it should NOT be faster than an Abarth anything. I want to be happier with my Fiat.

sketch
03-07-2011, 09:21 PM
Speed isn't everything. A V6 Toyota Camry goes from 0 to 60 in 5.8 seconds--about a second and a half faster than Europe's Abarth esseesse--but it is <i>not</i> anywhere near as fun to drive, and I'm sure it doesn't feel anywhere near as fast. Which I'd wager is also true of your Volvo.

RacerRon
03-07-2011, 09:22 PM
SmallCar Lover, I agree with everything you said. In Europe there are several tuning companies that can take your 500 way beyond what Abarth has done. 200, 230, even 260 hp with even stiffer suspension, better brakes, louder exhaust, etc. Just a question of how fast you want to go and still have it streetable. I went through that with the X1/9. I had springs on it that were so low and stiff, that it wasn't comfortable to drive over a moderately bumpy road.

Having a "real" Abarth is going to make the car more valuable in the long run, if you plan to keep it for awhile.

MrFiat
07-04-2011, 03:56 PM
All the interesting new cars aside, for me the new Abarth is a clear choice. Can't happen soon enough to suit yours truly. Having lived with a 1960 vintage Abarth for close to 50 years now, I am well aware of the pros and cons of ownership. Sure, there may be faster cars around and perhaps cars that handle as well. Perhaps a matter of opinion, but all things considered, no one does the entire package better than Il Scorpione. If Abarth did that well in 1960, imagine what they have in store for 2013 ! After a 50 year wait, I'm not giving up my place in line anytime soon.

MrFiat
07-05-2011, 10:47 AM
Abarth is a name Fiat purchased that meant something at the time. It has lost its meaning.

Mike,
I hear what you're saying, and to a certain extent you have a valid point. Abarth, once a substantive force in the performance automobile world has admittedly been "coasting" a bit since being bought by FIAT, but I see that as a normal course of events. After being swallowed by a giant any previously independent company would likely need a bit of time to find its place in the new order and begin to reinvent itself. Ferrari did the same thing but given its circumstances, recovered rather quickly. It's taking Abarth a bit longer. I see a "sea-change" going on and FIAT has finally begun to utilize this excellent resource. The new 500 Abarth isn't just another FIAT with a bunch of pretty badges, rather it's a car that I think is in keeping with what the Abarth group was and is all about. The thing that made Abarth great in the first place was the way that they took ordinary cars of the time and somehow made them more exotic and exciting. Isn't that what the new 500 Abarth is? I'm in no way trying to put down all these other new and interesting cars. They're all exciting in their own right, but I don't think we should consider Abarth as a "has-been" just yet. My guess is that we'll be seeing a lot more interesting things from them in the coming months and years.

FiatGator
07-06-2011, 08:35 PM
Hey all, new to the forum.

Is there any update on the pricing of the Abarth in the U.S.? Also color options?

I'm waiting for the Abarth, but want to get it in black...something along the lines of this (without the scorpion logo, though).

http://www.diseno-art.com/images_6/Fiat_500_Abarth_Esse_Esse.jpg