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Fiat500USA
03-22-2016, 02:26 AM
Fiat500USA.com Has Just Posted the Following:

The Fiat 124 Spider Elaborazione Abarth is coming. This tongue twister may be what the Abarth 124 is called on this side of the Atlantic. At least this is what the preliminary information coming out has the car listed as. In Europe, Abarth is an actual car make and has its own dealerships and service centers. In the US...

Read about it here... (http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/Fiat500USA/~3/wVAQf4lyekQ/fiat-124-spider-elaborazione-abarth.html)

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-yiXNa_6FC58/VtWMRIeWZEI/AAAAAAAAtIg/z4xcgfJARHMbxz-DqIwUNvoE8mRRBkzbACCo/s800-Ic42/Abarth-124-Spider-Rally%2B%25287%2529.jpg

Fiat500USA
03-22-2016, 09:49 AM
Fiat500USA.com Has Just Posted the Following:

The Fiat 124 Spider Elaborazione Abarth is premiering tomorrow at the New York Auto Show. Below is the full press release and details on the car for your enjoyment.



2017 Fiat 124 Spider Elaborazione Abarth features sport suspension, mechanical limited slip differential, Sport Mode selector and sport-tuned, chrome quad-tip exhaust
Available Brembo braking system and Recaro seats for added sportiness
Powered by turbocharged MultiAir 1.4-liter engine with 160 horsepower and 184 lb.-ft. of torque, available with manual transmission or automatic transmission with paddle shifters
Aggressive look with unique front and rear fascia, 17-inch Gun Metal (metallic gray) aluminum wheels, Gun Metal exterior accents and available hand-painted hood stripe, offering a one-of-a-kind appearance
2017 Fiat 124 Spider delivers best-in-class horsepower and torque
Fiat 124 Spider models will be available in studios early this summer


Read about it here... (http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/Fiat500USA/~3/mGkM7sWmDoQ/fiat-124-spider-elaborazione-abarth_22.html)

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-b_fQFZNr7EA/VvFF6OihulI/AAAAAAAAtf4/S0txL2KI0y47jbY6dHi5wzsxKagaWTX9g/s700/Abarth-124-Spider-USA.jpg

Robert Nixon
03-22-2016, 09:56 AM
Oh yeah!

Still waiting for pricing on the 124 Spider and the regular Giulia!

unknownsir
03-22-2016, 10:06 AM
Sooo, there will be no increase in power for the Abarth version in the US? I think some people are going to be disappointed. Hopefully this is wrong info.

Fiat500USA
03-22-2016, 10:11 AM
Sooo, there will be no increase in power for the Abarth version in the US? I think some people are going to be disappointed. Hopefully this is wrong info.

It is right from the horses mouth as they say, so the information should be accurate.

Trunkout
03-22-2016, 10:12 AM
I called that! 500 Abarth engine it is!
Still needs that carbon fiber hard top....

Abarth67
03-22-2016, 10:27 AM
So, 160 horsepower huh? I guess I will NOT be buying one after all. This car needs at least 200 horsepower to really impress me. Such a missed opportunity FIAT.

Amacento
03-22-2016, 10:49 AM
I'm glad to see they up'd the torque... that matters more than the hp. But I'm a bit disappointed they didn't at least deliver 170hp. The reason behind my disappointment in the hp is this car is reportedly heavier than the 500 model. Again, I'm glad the torque was at least addressed.

Michael T
03-22-2016, 10:50 AM
So, 160 horsepower huh? I guess I will NOT be buying one after all. This car needs at least 200 horsepower to really impress me. Such a missed opportunity FIAT.

Truth. So easily had as well.

Fiat500USA
03-22-2016, 10:59 AM
I'm glad to see they up'd the torque... that matters more than the hp. But I'm a bit disappointed they didn't at least deliver 170hp. The reason behind my disappointment in the hp is this car is reportedly heavier than the 500 model. Again, I'm glad the torque was at least addressed.

According to Olivier Francois, this car makes a very easy 160 hp. So it may very well be closer to that figure than we think. gr_grin

aj3smith30
03-22-2016, 11:30 AM
That is a sweet looking car!!! WOW

Abarthman
03-22-2016, 12:40 PM
Gorgeous car, but Fiat has let us down by not having more power for the Abarth.
My understanding is that the stock 124 Spider will have 160 hp (which we really know is 170hp).
Multiple reports lead us to believe the Abarth would have more..... like 190hp.
Look, we put up with our 500 Abarths being SLIGHTLY slower than the Mini S.... and we can't compete directly with the JCW Mini without mods. Now, this. Fiat has come up short in the horsepower department AGAIN.

We all know this engine is capable of reliably producing this and much, much more in the power department. I know there would have been some extra cost at federalizing another version of the engine, but I thought the 2017 500 Abarth was going to produce more power anyway?
I am as big a Fiat fan as there is, but Fiat has ALWAYS let us down by not producing as much power as their competitors.
Now, the 124 Abarth, which should be a butt-kicking, insanely powerful sportscar, merely has the same 160hp as the 500Abarth, and not significantly more than the Miata, which weighs less???

What's going on, Fiat? Didn't want to spend the extra money on development and federalization?
Or was there some agreement with Mazda going into this project that you wouldn't embarrass them with a much more powerful version?

Whatever it was, this is a MAJOR, MAJOR disappointment.
SO much promise, but you fell short..... again.

WHY, for ONCE, could you not produce enough power to KICK YOUR COMPETITORS INTO THE WEEDS and BLOW AWAY THE AUTOMOTIVE PRESS? THIS was your opportunity to make a MAJOR SPLASH in the marketplace. But you MISSED it.
This car needed about 200hp. For starters.
Whoever made this decision is an IDIOT.

ophidia31
03-22-2016, 01:09 PM
Power disappointment? Sure. But, with A500 power, this will still wreck the A500 since its lighter, true fr setup, and actual mechanical diff and no elecronic crap going on. And they might be keeping the power down to stay within a certain price range. As we all know, when the power goes up, so does the price. Maybe they feel that this is enough power. Nobody can say this car needs such amount of power when they havent even driven the thing to even how the geraing reacts to the power now that there is a proper 6spd transmission behind it as well. So until this is out and about and people have them in their hands, no one knows that the power it has wont be more than enough for stock.

And if this truly will be a 2017 model along side the normal 124 and the price is right, then definitley going to be saving up more money.

shagghie
03-22-2016, 01:21 PM
So, 160 horsepower huh? I guess I will NOT be buying one after all. This car needs at least 200 horsepower to really impress me. Such a missed opportunity FIAT.

I am fine with it. My Abarth 500 is at 260+ whp right now with a simple tune and big turbo & supporting bolt ons. I'm glad if it helps keep the cost down, and this is a well understood and easily modified engine to get to decent power. At 250whp, the power to weight ratio will be Alfa 4C quick... also, never mind the flying miata LS1 swaps that will be coming out for the mx-5 platform that will carry over, in case anyone here wants to go for insane power/weight with a 250lb weight penalty

shagghie
03-22-2016, 01:24 PM
Gorgeous car, but Fiat has let us down by not having more power for the Abarth.
My understanding is that the stock 124 Spider will have 160 hp (which we really know is 170hp).
Multiple reports lead us to believe the Abarth would have more..... like 190hp.
Look, we put up with our 500 Abarths being SLIGHTLY slower than the Mini S.... and we can't compete directly with the JCW Mini without mods. Now, this. Fiat has come up short in the horsepower department AGAIN.

We all know this engine is capable of reliably producing this and much, much more in the power department. I know there would have been some extra cost at federalizing another version of the engine, but I thought the 2017 500 Abarth was going to produce more power anyway?
I am as big a Fiat fan as there is, but Fiat has ALWAYS let us down by not producing as much power as their competitors.
Now, the 124 Abarth, which should be a butt-kicking, insanely powerful sportscar, merely has the same 160hp as the 500Abarth, and not significantly more than the Miata, which weighs less???

What's going on, Fiat? Didn't want to spend the extra money on development and federalization?
Or was there some agreement with Mazda going into this project that you wouldn't embarrass them with a much more powerful version?

Whatever it was, this is a MAJOR, MAJOR disappointment.
SO much promise, but you fell short..... again.

WHY, for ONCE, could you not produce enough power to KICK YOUR COMPETITORS INTO THE WEEDS and BLOW AWAY THE AUTOMOTIVE PRESS? THIS was your opportunity to make a MAJOR SPLASH in the marketplace. But you MISSED it.
This car needed about 200hp. For starters.
Whoever made this decision is an IDIOT.

I agree with the above *sentiment*...but, for $300 you can buy a piggy to get it close to 200.... realistically,... emotions aside (which i am on board with all your statements above), for the actual owner, making more than enough power and making the car quick is easily done. If it keeps the price down on the sticker, I am happy.

ALso, if they do produce the 300hp rally, then i am equally happy.

morrisg
03-22-2016, 03:03 PM
Ok, so the 2017 Abarth 124 is announced with the same power as the base Fiat 124 Spider, 160hp and 184 lb-ft of torque. Disappointing, of course. But we know that this engine can easily make more power with the various tunes (both factory and aftermarket) that are available. So what's going on????

Well, from reading Mazda ND forums we know there have been manual transmission failures in 2.0L ND models with pics of the 2nd gear pair completely stripped of their teeth. In those forums we also have heard from MS85 who works for Fiat in Italy and has told us that the original ND transmission put into the Fiat 124 mules was quickly broken. Mazda then designed a stronger 15 lb heavier manual transmission for the Fiat 124 to take the added torque level (184 lb-ft) from the 1.4L Multiair Turbo. This transmission was hinted at in an article in Al Volante and Car and Driver (C&D hinted that this was an NC version transmission, but I believe that's incorrect as it would introduce too many packaging problems to adapt that case to the ND/Fiat 124.)

So my guess is that there are still drivetrain problems that were discovered with the Abarth tuned engines with even more power. I think it was too late to correct the drivetrain problems (clutch? differential? axles? only the development teams know) and keep the launch date, so someone made a hard decision to keep the power level the same and go ahead with the launch.

Will there be another redesign to beef up the drivetrain to handle more power? No one knows at this point. My guess is that if the problems are in simple things like the clutch, drive shaft or axles, then the aftermarket will respond quickly and supply stronger parts. But if the problem is in the transmission or differential, well that's an expensive undertaking and will probably be left to Mazda and/or Fiat. And we don't know if they will leave things as is or will redesign with a higher power target in mind.

Just my guesses as to what happened / will happen with the Abarth. I have no inside information whatsoever.

shagghie
03-22-2016, 04:51 PM
Ok, so the 2017 Abarth 124 is announced with the same power as the base Fiat 124 Spider, 160hp and 184 lb-ft of torque. Disappointing, of course. But we know that this engine can easily make more power with the various tunes (both factory and aftermarket) that are available. So what's going on????

Well, from reading Mazda ND forums we know there have been manual transmission failures in 2.0L ND models with pics of the 2nd gear pair completely stripped of their teeth. In those forums we also have heard from MS85 who works for Fiat in Italy and has told us that the original ND transmission put into the Fiat 124 mules was quickly broken. Mazda then designed a stronger 15 lb heavier manual transmission for the Fiat 124 to take the added torque level (184 lb-ft) from the 1.4L Multiair Turbo. This transmission was hinted at in an article in Al Volante and Car and Driver (C&D hinted that this was an NC version transmission, but I believe that's incorrect as it would introduce too many packaging problems to adapt that case to the ND/Fiat 124.)

So my guess is that there are still drivetrain problems that were discovered with the Abarth tuned engines with even more power. I think it was too late to correct the drivetrain problems (clutch? differential? axles? only the development teams know) and keep the launch date, so someone made a hard decision to keep the power level the same and go ahead with the launch.

Will there be another redesign to beef up the drivetrain to handle more power? No one knows at this point. My guess is that if the problems are in simple things like the clutch, drive shaft or axles, then the aftermarket will respond quickly and supply stronger parts. But if the problem is in the transmission or differential, well that's an expensive undertaking and will probably be left to Mazda and/or Fiat. And we don't know if they will leave things as is or will redesign with a higher power target in mind.

Just my guesses as to what happened / will happen with the Abarth. I have no inside information whatsoever.

all good info and points here. Agree... if you get one thing right, give us a strong transmission capable of handling a lot of torque!

Klasse Act
03-22-2016, 07:51 PM
So, 160 horsepower huh? I guess I will NOT be buying one after all. This car needs at least 200 horsepower to really impress me. Such a missed opportunity FIAT.

I couldn't agree more, really sad to hear this because the car looks SO aggressive! One should NOT rely on the aftermarket to fix this as some people will always worry about warranty issues. All that aggressiveness and the same power as the base car, such a pity Fiat.

ophidia31
03-22-2016, 10:17 PM
What I really want to know is, when are we getting pricing and the ability to configure on the website already. Everyone in europe has the ability and pricing and we're just over here with our cranks in our hands. It took them 5 months to even put the 124 in the line up on their website instead of a "scroll around and find the link to the information" deal.

Winoman
03-22-2016, 10:31 PM
I've already more than already expressed my disappointment WRT lower than expected power for the Abarth 124...but at least morrisg's explanation perhaps makes some sense of it. In some ways I'm surprised they are releasing such an anemic thing (compared to the regular 124 and even the Miata) as an Abarth (instead of waiting until they got a tranny capable of holding the power). As I'm not planning on buying another car for a few years I can affortd to wait and hopefully they will rectify this and make the 124 Abarth a real performer right out of the box (not that I'm unfamiliar with the potential for aftermarket upgrades....but I like to drive a car stock for a bit then start modding....enjoying the car as I go). Also that old saying about not buying a car in in first year....so we'll see how it all plays out....

Winoman
03-22-2016, 10:35 PM
Got to say though - the car does look great....

Jtpc2007
03-22-2016, 10:47 PM
everyone so disappointed with power? I still offers more hp and torque than the miata its based off of and the miata is faster than the 500 abarth here in the US. (especially if comparing the 500 carbrio abarth that I had with the new ND miata) Oh, and 6 speed gearing may help as well instead of 5-speed of 500 abarth (again, a US spec)
So it should be plenty fun seeing how well the miata has done.

My only disappointment is that the 124 Abarth here in the US doesn't have any Abarth badges like the European version. Our version is still a Fiat 124 Spider that has the Abarth package (club pack) so I suppose that's why Abarth is at the end of the name instead of the Front like it is on Euro version.

I'll miss not having a scorpion badge honestly. the Fiat emblem doesn't look as aggressive as the rest of the car.

Jtpc2007
03-22-2016, 11:02 PM
Will there be another redesign to beef up the drivetrain to handle more power? No one knows at this point. My guess is that if the problems are in simple things like the clutch, drive shaft or axles, then the aftermarket will respond quickly and supply stronger parts. But if the problem is in the transmission or differential, well that's an expensive undertaking and will probably be left to Mazda and/or Fiat. And we don't know if they will leave things as is or will redesign with a higher power target in mind.

Just my guesses as to what happened / will happen with the Abarth. I have no inside information whatsoever.

Official Fiat response to difference is that the 170hp euro version is to meet the regulations of the euro/mid-east/african markets. They didn't give a reason as to why ours is 160hp. But again, note that our version is just a package on the fiat 124 instead of an Abarth branded vehicle. Still will be sportier but not full-out Abarth with scorpion badges like Euro version.
I'm sure the market will dictate whether they make an Abarth 124 spider to top the US Fiat 124 Spider Elaboriazione Abarth package.
I'm fine with the 160hp and more torque over the miata. I'm also glad the brembo brakes are optional here as well as the different seats. In Europe, its all standard which makes the car higher price base for Abarth 124. Having the leather seats and brembos optional will hopefully help me afford this version of the 124.

shagghie
03-22-2016, 11:07 PM
everyone so disappointed with power? I still offers more hp and torque than the miata its based off of and the miata is faster than the 500 abarth here in the US. (especially if comparing the 500 carbrio abarth that I had with the new ND miata) Oh, and 6 speed gearing may help as well instead of 5-speed of 500 abarth (again, a US spec)
So it should be plenty fun seeing how well the miata has done.

My only disappointment is that the 124 Abarth here in the US doesn't have any Abarth badges like the European version. Our version is still a Fiat 124 Spider that has the Abarth package (club pack) so I suppose that's why Abarth is at the end of the name instead of the Front like it is on Euro version.

I'll miss not having a scorpion badge honestly. the Fiat emblem doesn't look as aggressive as the rest of the car.

yes, the badging and overall approach is tragic. I'm fine with the power, but not at all with the strategy and presentation of what and where this car is. The only upside is it leaves room for a real Abarth down the road...perhaps after they work out the transmission thing.
To me, this is kind of like the 500T was... less captivating. I don't want a tribute to an Abarth... I want an Abarth.

morrisg
03-23-2016, 12:15 AM
Ok, so the 2017 Abarth 124 is announced with the same power as the base Fiat 124 Spider, 160hp and 184 lb-ft of torque. Disappointing, of course. But we know that this engine can easily make more power with the various tunes (both factory and aftermarket) that are available. So what's going on????

Well, from reading Mazda ND forums we know there have been manual transmission failures in 2.0L ND models with pics of the 2nd gear pair completely stripped of their teeth. In those forums we also have heard from MS85 who works for Fiat in Italy and has told us that the original ND transmission put into the Fiat 124 mules was quickly broken. Mazda then designed a stronger 15 lb heavier manual transmission for the Fiat 124 to take the added torque level (184 lb-ft) from the 1.4L Multiair Turbo. This transmission was hinted at in an article in Al Volante and Car and Driver (C&D hinted that this was an NC version transmission, but I believe that's incorrect as it would introduce too many packaging problems to adapt that case to the ND/Fiat 124.)

So my guess is that there are still drivetrain problems that were discovered with the Abarth tuned engines with even more power. I think it was too late to correct the drivetrain problems (clutch? differential? axles? only the development teams know) and keep the launch date, so someone made a hard decision to keep the power level the same and go ahead with the launch.

Will there be another redesign to beef up the drivetrain to handle more power? No one knows at this point. My guess is that if the problems are in simple things like the clutch, drive shaft or axles, then the aftermarket will respond quickly and supply stronger parts. But if the problem is in the transmission or differential, well that's an expensive undertaking and will probably be left to Mazda and/or Fiat. And we don't know if they will leave things as is or will redesign with a higher power target in mind.

Just my guesses as to what happened / will happen with the Abarth. I have no inside information whatsoever.

Well, I got that WRONG! Here's a pic from the UK Fiat site that shows a ghost view of the mechanicals inside the Fiat 124:
http://www.fiat500usaforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=21388&stc=1
It is clear that this transmission is the NC Miata version. This is GREAT news because that transmission is good for 250hp+ in racing as proven on the track over the years! There's one in my 2009 MX-5 Touring 6 speed and it has over 40,000 miles with a CAI, header, exhaust and tuned for 190hp+ with no problems. And I compete in autocross, so it hasn't been babied. Even if Fiat doesn't provide a more powerful tune for the Abarth, the aftermarket may and there should be no problem with the transmission.

While that says nothing about the clutch, drive shaft, differential or axles, those parts are easily addressed by the performance part aftermarket. So we should be able to do a Build Your Own Abarth if you want more power. And I definitely do!

And now, having learned nothing from my previous mistake, I will stick my neck out again. Maybe the reason for no added power for the Abarth is that the new tune failed Emissions Testing??? Again, I have no inside knowledge and this is my own speculation.

Abarthman
03-23-2016, 09:03 AM
yes, I know.

The difference is (1) what the automotive press will say, which is that this car is FAR more expensive than a Miata, but no faster, and (2) impression by most in the public who WON'T mod their cars.
To win the hearts of the buying public, you need to produce a KICK A** car OUT OF THE BOX! With 200hp, the motoring press AND the buying public would be blown away.
Now, they will just complain that, yes, it is somewhat better than a stock Miata, but NO faster for MUCH more money.

LOSER decision by them. Even if they LOST MONEY on the total project cost of developing a higher output engine and getting it federalized. Winning buyers is an INVESTMENT. Coming up short against your competition is NOT the way to win market share.

Amacento
03-23-2016, 10:00 AM
I had to reread this to wrap my head around it.

ABARTH is a trim level, now? It's been posted already, but this is a travesty. I trust this will change by the time it comes to market. As shagghie posted, this is the 500T version of what should have been. I guess I won't be purchasing one of these anytime soon. Danggit!

shagghie
03-23-2016, 10:12 AM
I had to reread this to wrap my head around it.

ABARTH is a trim level, now? It's been posted already, but this is a travesty. I trust this will change by the time it comes to market. As shagghie posted, this is the 500T version of what should have been. I guess I won't be purchasing one of these anytime soon. Danggit!

I supposed if Fiat are to be more disclosing of what their strategy and rationale is, it will likely help us Fiat/Abarth die-hards here in the states be able to support the decision and direction. Amecento and I have been fans for many decades...i grew up in the back seat of a 124 coupe in Spain in the mid 70's.... We have hearts ready to support, but not if we are left guessing at the purpose of "Elaborazione Abarth" vs. just 'Abarth'.

ophidia31
03-23-2016, 10:25 AM
which is that this car is FAR more expensive than a Miata, but no faster.

Do you know that for sure or are you just basing this off of what the price is in europe for the fully loaded actual abarth?

I'm still looking at this version as the club version and cant see it starting any more than 30k. Just because it has the abarth bumper, doesnt mean its the abarth. There arent any abarth/scorpion badges and the only thing thatd say abarth is the lettering on the back. Maybe. Think maybe it could have been called a 124S for sport or something since you are getting the better parts over the other two models.

OhSoLo
03-23-2016, 10:57 AM
I'm definitely seeing this as the sport model of the 124. Especially since it lacks the Abarth badging. It's kinda like what Mercedes is doing recently with the AMG name. They offer a model called the Mercedes-AMG C43 below the well known Mercedes C63 AMG. It's an in between version that that balances the features of both the more luxury oriented versions and the full jam high performance models. I see this version of the 124 they're giving us as similar to that. Definitely a 500T, but not a full jam Abarth. This only means we really could see a legit Abarth version for this market down the road with some serious performance. After all, when the 500 launched in North America, it was a while before they gave us the Abarth. I bought my Sport in March of 2011. Back then we didn't even know if we would even be getting the 500 Abarth.

ophidia31
03-23-2016, 11:02 AM
Yep. They are probably seeing people wanting the options that the club miata has and decided to do this as a quick remedy to possibly increase the sales. I forsee the real version possibly showing up later this year in LA. They just didnt have the time to button up a US version in time for new york and LA gives them alot of time to figure stuff out for the US market real Abarth.

Amacento
03-23-2016, 11:40 AM
I supposed if Fiat are to be more disclosing of what their strategy and rationale is, it will likely help us Fiat/Abarth die-hards here in the states be able to support the decision and direction. Amacento and I have been fans for many decades...i grew up in the back seat of a 124 coupe in Spain in the mid 70's.... We have hearts ready to support, but not if we are left guessing at the purpose of "Elaborazione Abarth" vs. just 'Abarth'.
When FIAT S.p.A. absorbed the "trim" side of Giannini they simply stopped using the name and badging. In my opinion, the 500T ought to be dubbed & badged a Giannini. The single pipe, muffler and dedicated interior touches would make a lot more sense. These "trims" are just disrespectful and confusing. I don't want my heritage/history watered down. How does donna Anneliese feel about this? His widow is still alive.

This "Elaborazione ABARTH" could have just as easily been badged a Giannini... with the promise of an ABARTH to follow.

For those unaware, Giannini was a tuning company much like ABARTH & Co... founded by Attilio & Domenico Giannini. Later, their children wanted the company to be associated more with upscale trims and fashion. The company split. FIAT owns the trim/fashion side of it. The 500T and this "Elaborazione ABARTH" are truly more in-line with the Giannini line FIAT owns.

Fiat500USA
03-23-2016, 01:23 PM
Couple of quick notes. When you see the price, the Brembos being optional will make sense. Power, the engine makes basically the same power as Europe. While it is too early to confirm, Mopar may have some things to address power. Let's see how it plays out. Also, the Abarth logo was left off the side in the press release image.

MrFiat
03-23-2016, 01:46 PM
yes, the badging and overall approach is tragic. I'm fine with the power, but not at all with the strategy and presentation of what and where this car is. The only upside is it leaves room for a real Abarth down the road...perhaps after they work out the transmission thing.
To me, this is kind of like the 500T was... less captivating. I don't want a tribute to an Abarth... I want an Abarth.

Spoken from the tongue of a true Abarthisti. beerchug Thank you !

In Italy in the 50's and 60's, Abarth was a household name -- a national symbol of pride synonymous with strong and powerful. Karl Abarth worked hard to achieve that recognition. When someone wanted a strong cup of coffee, they would say "Coffee Abarth, please" and everyone understood. That level of recognition has never been achieved here in the U.S. Great if it did but probably never will, especially if FCA allows the Abarth name to become associated with ho-hum cars with pretty badges. Abarth was always more about GO than Show and should stay that way. The A124 is a nice car, to be sure, but an Abarth it is not. It is basically a 124 with pretty badges and that is Sad indeed.

On the other hand, the Abarth rallye is, in all respects, a true Abarth. Bravo !!!! Più dello stesso favore, (translation - more of the same please.)

Those of us that grew up with the brand and understand what the Abarth Group is truly capable of will never view the A124 as a real Abarth. And those that are new to the brand will certainly get the wrong impression. The A500 was a great start here in North America and true to the spirit of the brand. But the A124 - nice car that it is - is in my opinion a step in the wrong direction.

Listen up Fiat -- Don't water down the Abarth name !

MrFiat
03-23-2016, 02:00 PM
I don't want my heritage/history watered down. How does donna Anneliese feel about this? His widow is still alive.

This "Elaborazione ABARTH" could have just as easily been badged a Giannini... with the promise of an ABARTH to follow.

Wish I had read your post before writing mine. The sentiment is the same and I couldn't agree with you more. If FCA is going to offer an Abarth they should first figure out what an Abarth really is and then sell an Abarth, not some lame approximation on one.

ophidia31
03-23-2016, 02:03 PM
Those of us that grew up with the brand and understand what the Abarth Group is truly capable of will never view the A124 as a real Abarth. And those that are new to the brand will certainly get the wrong impression.

You could probably see my attitude toward this model change over time in this thread and I dont see that this 124 should have abarth anywhere on it; badges or otherwise. Thats because I took a closer look at the press photo and saw it was fiat badges on the abarth cladding. I think they should have just left the body alone and saved that for the actual abarth version.So, thats not an Abarth to me regardless of what the lettering is on the back. On the topic of power, I think people would still be saying something about not enough power if we did only get the 10hp bump as well. If we were over in Europe, thats a different story as their 124 only has 140hp vs their Abarth that has the 170hp tune. So, over there, that model is worthy of the badges because it is a noticeable difference between their models. So, I think FCA should change the name and leave the Abarth for the actual Abarth version.

Jtpc2007
03-23-2016, 04:05 PM
This is what Fiat spokesperson said: "The engine of the EMEA [Europe, the Middle East (http://www.autoblog.com/category/middle-east/) and Africa] Abarth Spider has unique tuning developed according to European regulations, so the [horsepower] number is different," Fiat spokesperson Angela Bianchi told Autoblog.

I don't think the 10hp is that huge of a loss, but I don't see why we lose the Abarth badging and label just because our version has same power ratings as our US regular 124.

I'm sure they will come out with an Abarth labeled one with 200+hp eventually though here if the 124 sells well enough. If not, we get Europe's Abarth without the character/scorpion badges.

Bet let's all keep our heads and wait to drive the regular 124 spider when it comes out this summer. If you are happy driving a fiat 500 (abarth or not), I can't see you hating the handling and driving experience of the 124 spider. Has to be an experience.
ND miata is a blast (in manual form. not so much the auto to me) and it lacks any emotion in exhaust sound and power build through the rev range. So the 124 spider will be at least that good I'm sure except with more emotion. :)

Amacento
03-23-2016, 04:15 PM
You could probably see my attitude toward this model change over time in this thread and I dont see that this 124 should have abarth anywhere on it; badges or otherwise. Thats because I took a closer look at the press photo and saw it was fiat badges on the abarth cladding. I think they should have just left the body alone and saved that for the actual abarth version.So, thats not an Abarth to me regardless of what the lettering is on the back. On the topic of power, I think people would still be saying something about not enough power if we did only get the 10hp bump as well. If we were over in Europe, thats a different story as their 124 only has 140hp vs their Abarth that has the 170hp tune. So, over there, that model is worthy of the badges because it is a noticeable difference between their models. So, I think FCA should change the name and leave the Abarth for the actual Abarth version.
I will add this to your message, though...

Some vintage "FIAT ABARTHs" have both badges. That's not my issue. My issue is the "Elaborazione" implies there is a process at work here. Offer a true something... a Giannini version... to hold us over. There is no need to confuse with this nameplate.

Jtpc2007
03-23-2016, 04:38 PM
Finally saw real photos from NYAS. It does have one scorpion abarth badge on the side of car. the badge says "Elaborazione Abarth" next to the scorpion. All other badges (steering wheel, front hood, trunk, and wheels) are FIAT name.

Klasse Act
03-23-2016, 05:26 PM
I just saw the Mazda video of the retractable convertible...O M G! I wonder if the Fiat will get this or maybe its exclusive to the Miata?

zvez
03-23-2016, 05:38 PM
so the price premium for the abarth, no increase in power, just cosmetics, pretty disappointing, my 4c isn't in any danger of being replaced by this.

Jtpc2007
03-23-2016, 06:00 PM
so the price premium for the abarth, no increase in power, just cosmetics, pretty disappointing, my 4c isn't in any danger of being replaced by this.

Not exactly just cosmetics. Similar upgrades as getting the Club spec miata with bilstein/brembo package. The suspension, dual valve exhaust, brakes (if you upgrade to brembo), mechanical rear limited-slip diff, as well as the fact the car may weigh in slightly less than 124 spider in other trims (if we are going off of Euro abarth stats). So yeah, it has a more track-focused setup like the club miata. Not just stickers.

MrFiat
03-23-2016, 06:14 PM
Bet let's all keep our heads and wait to drive the regular 124 spider when it comes out this summer. If you are happy driving a fiat 500 (abarth or not), I can't see you hating the handling and driving experience of the 124 spider. Has to be an experience.
ND miata is a blast (in manual form. not so much the auto to me) and it lacks any emotion in exhaust sound and power build through the rev range. So the 124 spider will be at least that good I'm sure except with more emotion. :)

No argument there. The 124 should be a total blast to drive and so should the A-124. They should both be fine cars in their own right. I can't wait to drive one. The problem (for me and evidently for some others also) is the fact that FCA is insinuating that the A-124 is an Abarth. In spirit if not in reality, it simply doesn't measure up. It's like calling a Mercedes C300 an AMG.

Picture this -- Place the A-124 in between a regular 124 and the Abarth Rally and compare the three side by side. A street version Abarth should be closer in looks and performance to the Rally than it is to the stock 124. As it stands, the A-124 is much more similar to the stock 124. See the issue?

Jtpc2007
03-23-2016, 06:24 PM
No argument there. The 124 should be a total blast to drive and so should the A-124. They should both be fine cars in their own right. I can't wait to drive one. The problem (for me and evidently for some others also) is the fact that FCA is insinuating that the A-124 is an Abarth. In spirit if not in reality, it simply doesn't measure up. It's like calling a Mercedes C300 an AMG.

Picture this -- Place the A-124 in between a regular 124 and the Abarth Rally and compare the three side by side. A street version Abarth should be closer in looks and performance to the Rally than it is to the stock 124. As it stands, the A-124 is much more similar to the stock 124. See the issue?

Agreed. That's why I think the US is still labeled as a Fiat instead of calling it Abarth 124. (and lack of the abarth badges).
But I agree. Its very similar to the Cadillac CTS V-sport that looks like the Cadillac CTS-V but doesn't have the big v-8.

But yeah, I think Fiat is trying to associate this version with the Fiat 124 spider by calling this a trim package rather than a true Abarth. But it is disappointing to me seeing how its basically the same car as Europe's Abarth 124 but we miss out on the full look and identity.

Amacento
03-23-2016, 09:12 PM
No argument there. The 124 should be a total blast to drive and so should the A-124. They should both be fine cars in their own right. I can't wait to drive one. The problem (for me and evidently for some others also) is the fact that FCA is insinuating that the A-124 is an Abarth. In spirit if not in reality, it simply doesn't measure up. It's like calling a Mercedes C300 an AMG.

Picture this -- Place the A-124 in between a regular 124 and the Abarth Rally and compare the three side by side. A street version Abarth should be closer in looks and performance to the Rally than it is to the stock 124. As it stands, the A-124 is much more similar to the stock 124. See the issue?
There it is, brother. That's exactly what I'm on about.

Funny thing… FCA Corporate took the announcement off their page. I guess they didn't see the North American ABARTHisti up in arms.

shagghie
03-23-2016, 11:51 PM
And truth is it is not even us who will be the toughest critics; it is the automotive press, the car reviewers, and most of al, the kind of buyer interested in this 124 platform. Want we •don't• need is a Barbie or Gucci edition of the 124. Dealers here couldn't give those cars away...


There it is, brother. That's exactly what I'm on about.

Funny thing… FCA Corporate took the announcement off their page. I guess they didn't see the North American ABARTHisti up in arms.

Winoman
03-24-2016, 02:07 AM
yes, I know.

The difference is (1) what the automotive press will say, which is that this car is FAR more expensive than a Miata, but no faster, and (2) impression by most in the public who WON'T mod their cars.
To win the hearts of the buying public, you need to produce a KICK A** car OUT OF THE BOX! With 200hp, the motoring press AND the buying public would be blown away.
Now, they will just complain that, yes, it is somewhat better than a stock Miata, but NO faster for MUCH more money.

LOSER decision by them. Even if they LOST MONEY on the total project cost of developing a higher output engine and getting it federalized. Winning buyers is an INVESTMENT. Coming up short against your competition is NOT the way to win market share.

This - this exactly IMO....

Amacento
03-24-2016, 08:38 AM
And truth is it is not even us who will be the toughest critics; it is the automotive press, the car reviewers, and most of al, the kind of buyer interested in this 124 platform. Want we •don't• need is a Barbie or Gucci edition of the 124. Dealers here couldn't give those cars away...
The Barbie & Gucci 500s sold out up here (some were even traded up/across). Those kinds of special editions are consistent with the Cinquino… not so with the 124.

Yep… I can see the press having a field day with this watered down "performance" car.

Abarthman
03-24-2016, 08:45 AM
Do you know that for sure or are you just basing this off of what the price is in europe for the fully loaded actual abarth?

I'm still looking at this version as the club version and cant see it starting any more than 30k. Just because it has the abarth bumper, doesnt mean its the abarth. There arent any abarth/scorpion badges and the only thing thatd say abarth is the lettering on the back. Maybe. Think maybe it could have been called a 124S for sport or something since you are getting the better parts over the other two models.

Partially off of pricing in Europe; but there is talk already that the stock 124 will be a few thousand more $ than the Miata to start with (makes sense, the 1.4Turbo engine is considerably more expensive and the interior is a little nicer); and the Abarth will clearly be MORE thousands than the stock 124. Odds are, this car will be $40K +++.
All for a car that, according to published 0 - 60 times, is, in fact, SLOWER than the Miata, which can be bought for under $30k.
Yes, it looks better and handles better. That's nice. But NO faster; and possibly even slower. For probably $12k more, possibly even more than that.

There is a real problem here.

The history of Abarth is that they turned Fiats into GIANT KILLERS! Not cars that were just slightly faster than other ecomomy cars, but cars which were as fast (or almost as fast as) MUCH more upmarket cars.
Someone at FCA doesn't get it.
This car needed AT LEAST 200hp, MINIMUM.

Robert Nixon
03-24-2016, 09:09 AM
Just one guy's opinion:
1--Yes, I'd love to get a 124 Spider (FIAT or Abarth) with 200+ HP.
2--I don't think Miata has ever made one with that much power, and they've sold about a million of them since 1990, so I can't say that the current 160-170hp Spider (FIAT or Abarth) will NOT sell. Like someone else stated, this Abarth Elabaroation version is just like a tweaked Miata Club or Mazdaspeed or any of the other special versions, it does have some performance upgrades. If you really have to have this car with max power, then you can buy it retail and have Flyin' Miata install a V8 for another $40K or so.
3--I'm still waiting on pricing

ophidia31
03-24-2016, 10:07 AM
Partially off of pricing in Europe; but there is talk already that the stock 124 will be a few thousand more $ than the Miata to start with (makes sense, the 1.4Turbo engine is considerably more expensive and the interior is a little nicer); and the Abarth will clearly be MORE thousands than the stock 124. Odds are, this car will be $40K +++.
All for a car that, according to published 0 - 60 times, is, in fact, SLOWER than the Miata, which can be bought for under $30k.
Yes, it looks better and handles better. That's nice. But NO faster; and possibly even slower. For probably $12k more, possibly even more than that.

Ill respectfully disagree on the pricing and cant see the faux-abarth costing more than $30k because its just not there. What we are getting is a club package 124 with a different appearance. If you option it out, yes, thats were pricing starts to shoot up. But anyone in their right mind, knowing the aftermarket for this chassis, can get those aftermarket package bits cheaper than the package you'd buy. If they were going to use this in a-x for factory classes, thats the only way I can see someone buying those packages. If you're basing the performance of this car off of 0-60, then you'll never enjoy the car. And those are factory performance numbers. There was no head to head against the miata yet with their abarth version that has the proper lsd ini it vs the open diff thats electronic controlled. And with the 1.4t youre going to have more torque in the same area of the power band as the NA miata. With a similar equipped club package, I just cant see the miata being anywhere near the 124 on a track or twisties. But just like the A500, yeah, that 0-60 sucks and there are other faster cars hatches out there, but when you get into it, hear the exhaust and the over feel of the car, you forget all about that. But, right now for us its just all speculation with them being so tight lipped about pricing we have to basically wait to find out anything since theyre taking their sweet ass time releasing those numbers.

morrisg
03-24-2016, 12:54 PM
Well, I can only think of one good thing coming out of this E. Abarth mess…. lower pricing. I think FCA hasn't announced any pricing yet because they are trying to figure out how much demand there is for the car. And the press hasn't been very kind so far. With this E. Abarth not being a higher power level than the base 124, well, the press is going to continue to be not so kind.

So MAYBE this will play into our hands in reduced pricing and / or discounts at the dealerships. I could see a base Classica at $23k and then going out and building my own Abarth: Ohlins coilovers, sway bars, wider wheels and tires, exhaust and a tune to 200hp. Maybe $5k for that which yields a nice little hot rod for under $30k if I wrench it myself. Should be easy to just piggyback off the ND MX5 suspension developments.

Oh well, disappointing but there might be a silver lining.

MrFiat
03-24-2016, 01:19 PM
Well, I can only think of one good thing coming out of this E. Abarth mess…. lower pricing. I think FCA hasn't announced any pricing yet because they are trying to figure out how much demand there is for the car. And the press hasn't been very kind so far. With this E. Abarth not being a higher power level than the base 124, well, the press is going to continue to be not so kind.

So MAYBE this will play into our hands in reduced pricing and / or discounts at the dealerships. I could see a base Classica at $23k and then going out and building my own Abarth: Ohlins coilovers, sway bars, wider wheels and tires, exhaust and a tune to 200hp. Maybe $5k for that which yields a nice little hot rod for under $30k if I wrench it myself. Should be easy to just piggyback off the ND MX5 suspension developments.

Oh well, disappointing but there might be a silver lining.

I feel the need to add my two cents one more time here. Abarth has always been a high performance brand. In Europe it still is. An Abarth has always had the reputation of being a Small but Wicked, Fire Breathing, Bone Jarring, Nasty Ass, Giant Killer !! Not a car for just anyone. That's its cashe. Always was, always should be.

FCA bought Abarth with the idea of capitalizing on the name and its reputation. That is a good thing in my opinion, but only if they carefully try to maintain the reputation of the brand. Again, the only quarrel I have with the A-124 is the reference to the name. (Elaborazione Abarth) Very confusing to the average American car buy who is "unwashed" in the ways of Italian automobiles. The A-124 is undoubtedly a fine automobile. Invent some catchy name for it, but but for goodness sake, it should not carry any association with the Abarth name. Save that for a real street Abarth creation. The new 500 Abarth is a good example.

Keep the Abarth name true to its roots. From a business perspective, the long term benefits of doing that will far outweigh the short term gains.

Winoman
03-24-2016, 02:12 PM
OK - I'll respond with my opinions -


Just one guy's opinion:
1--Yes, I'd love to get a 124 Spider (FIAT or Abarth) with 200+ HP.

Agree 110%


2--I don't think Miata has ever made one with that much power, and they've sold about a million of them since 1990, so I can't say that the current 160-170hp Spider (FIAT or Abarth) will NOT sell. Like someone else stated, this Abarth Elabaroation version is just like a tweaked Miata Club or Mazdaspeed or any of the other special versions, it does have some performance upgrades. If you really have to have this car with max power, then you can buy it retail and have Flyin' Miata install a V8 for another $40K or so.

Agree in part - but mostly disagree. The Abarth Elabaroation seems somewhat like a Miata club (perhaps) but Mazdaspeed cars have always had significant/non questionable performance (power +) upgrades over the base. The Abarth Elabaroation is more akin to an Audi S-sport or BMW M-sport or perhaps (at best) a Nizmo edition or such....basically styling queues to evoke the "real" performance version (with perhaps options for some suspension/braking upgrades) - but basically a poser. As for plopping down $40 for a V-8 - well that's a very limited market (and probably best done with a used earlier series Miata then with a new - supposedly Italian heritage/already special little sports car (IMO of course). As for Mazda selling a lot of Miatas - well of course. When introduced there were few if any real options in the class....not so now IMO...and well Mazda has built the reputation with this generation (and a very loyal fan base) while Fiats is a bit dated, not so mass appeal and well while the 500 is doing well for its niche...most who even remember the "glory days" of Fiat are what we might consider a bit long in the tooth. Am I wrong?


3--I'm still waiting on pricing

A reasonable expectation that perhaps all share...

Winoman
03-24-2016, 02:19 PM
Also, IMO, anyone who would buy a new Fiat 124 and spend another $40K to put a V-8 into it needs to be examined for sanity....when the Porsche Boxster S (or GTS even) can be had for significantly less than going this route....so come now...

And with the upcoming Honda S2000s and other offerings (Alpha 4c right out of the box) etc etc....well one would have to be a bit nuts to go this route (with a new car certainly). I can see if someone already had an older Miata or could buy one cheap and then do this mod - OK - that makes more sense...

ophidia31
03-24-2016, 03:44 PM
Well, I can only think of one good thing coming out of this E. Abarth mess…. lower pricing. I think FCA hasn't announced any pricing yet because they are trying to figure out how much demand there is for the car. And the press hasn't been very kind so far. With this E. Abarth not being a higher power level than the base 124, well, the press is going to continue to be not so kind.

So MAYBE this will play into our hands in reduced pricing and / or discounts at the dealerships. I could see a base Classica at $23k and then going out and building my own Abarth: Ohlins coilovers, sway bars, wider wheels and tires, exhaust and a tune to 200hp. Maybe $5k for that which yields a nice little hot rod for under $30k if I wrench it myself. Should be easy to just piggyback off the ND MX5 suspension developments.

Oh well, disappointing but there might be a silver lining.

I didnt think about the press bashing it, but also remembered the article about everything going on earlier this month with the dealer talks and trying to figure out new prices in terms of something they can offer outright without automatically discounting the crap out of the car right when the customer walks into the showroom. But a new name I thought about for it in terms of their 124 classica, 124 lusso lines, put the normal 124 bumpers on and get rid of the abarth bumpers (save that for the real deal) and just call this one the 124 sportivo.

Jtpc2007
03-24-2016, 05:18 PM
Are they ever going to official reveal the 124 spider Elaborazione Abarth already?????!!!!!

Every car news site has the same info (yes, well all know by now 160hp already), and the same press photo of the car in red with fiat emblems.

Road and Track is the only place I've seen a handful of photos of the US spec car that is at the NYIAS so far and the interior shot is vague. Shows the steering wheel has fiat emblem, loses the red center marker like europe, and keeps the red tachometer.

So what's the deal? Are they going to do a reveal officially so we can see more photos of the actual car in person (and hopefully a few online videos of the recaro seats fitted on the showroom model they have) or are they trying to hide at this point because of the Miata retractable fastback getting all the video press at the moment???

Jtpc2007
03-24-2016, 06:11 PM
I feel the need to add my two cents one more time here. Abarth has always been a high performance brand. In Europe it still is. An Abarth has always had the reputation of being a Small but Wicked, Fire Breathing, Bone Jarring, Nasty Ass, Giant Killer !! Not a car for just anyone. That's its cashe. Always was, always should be.

FCA bought Abarth with the idea of capitalizing on the name and its reputation. That is a good thing in my opinion, but only if they carefully try to maintain the reputation of the brand. Again, the only quarrel I have with the A-124 is the reference to the name. (Elaborazione Abarth) Very confusing to the average American car buy who is "unwashed" in the ways of Italian automobiles. The A-124 is undoubtedly a fine automobile. Invent some catchy name for it, but but for goodness sake, it should not carry any association with the Abarth name. Save that for a real street Abarth creation. The new 500 Abarth is a good example.

Keep the Abarth name true to its roots. From a business perspective, the long term benefits of doing that will far outweigh the short term gains.

I don't know about all of Europe, but I saw on the UK site they have 500 Abarths with less hp, the same hp, and a little more hp than our one and only US spec 160hp Abarth.
So if 140hp and 160hp is enough for a 500 to get abarth name in the UK, 160hp on a lightweight roadster should qualify as well.

Lets face it, hp numbers shouldn't qualify or disqualify a car from getting performance branding. A lot of cars have high HP numbers now even if just a family car. Glad to see Mazda and Fiat going a different way with it.

Hoping fiat will make a statement and talk about the US 124 spider options soon.

Jtpc2007
03-24-2016, 11:10 PM
Here are some real photos from caranddriver:

http://www.caranddriver.com/photo-gallery/u-s-spec-2017-fiat-124-spider-elaborazione-abarth-is-a-miata-club-with-an-italian-accent

Fiat500USA
03-25-2016, 12:31 AM
Here are some pics of the Spider Elaborazione Abarth for you:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-BSn9hlcE7Ac/VvS7q_Qm_FI/AAAAAAAAuDI/ETg5UikxjyAfCfLHvjUR3O-bVGjwh_-5gCCo/s800-Ic42/US-Fiat-Abarth-spider-NY.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-8Pud0iNcAvw/VvS71ubTicI/AAAAAAAAuDI/O-vtYMLmCw0MFdUGGLb5nYvDzbus6eOMgCCo/s800-Ic42/US-Fiat-Abarth-spider-NY-2.jpg

By the way, the round plug in the grille is for the tow hook.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-5z1QrDBsusY/VvS7_SatoJI/AAAAAAAAuDI/QylIuAn5JwI6iCFlybe7A_ARPcIoTRVIwCCo/s800-Ic42/US-Fiat-Abarth-spider-NY-7.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-S717QpLnhhg/VvS5WURapUI/AAAAAAAAuB4/_DkloxBn_1ANZUzbPQINyeM3fzNKYufPgCCo/s800-Ic42/US-Fiat-Abarth-Spider-NY-18d.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-BqIn3NQQ7dM/VvS5z2uwKUI/AAAAAAAAuCY/cRtw1C9ceFcwTMGTqmKzJHznxgjdmvpHACCo/s800-Ic42/US-Fiat-Abarth-Spider-NY-21d.jpg

Jtpc2007
03-25-2016, 12:45 AM
thanks! and I didn't know what the plug was when I saw it in red from Geneva photos.

Fiat500USA
03-25-2016, 12:57 AM
More images of the Spider Elaborazione unveiled at the NY Auto Show:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-x6rJlf832BY/VvS6oLDq_TI/AAAAAAAAuCk/KHjdmHtmlpUuVR9V5F9JMvbbmdq-HmvAgCCo/s800-Ic42/US-Fiat-Abarth-Spider-NY-26d.jpg


https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-1WI6XCJuL0I/VvS8-ZbCIjI/AAAAAAAAuDc/7Kaa4NY-VTIntTbuEue7IuznhpbYwQk7ACCo/s800-Ic42/US-Fiat-Abarth-spider-NY-6.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-NVCTKDRRs0Q/VvS8ZZNbKUI/AAAAAAAAuDQ/gAU463LFl3suChUS3frbcoyLIhDqxVosACCo/s800-Ic42/US-Fiat-Abarth-spider-NY-3.jpg


https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-lI2lMaEagGQ/VvS6dOvczvI/AAAAAAAAuCk/1_rS6OLQcvIl1H6X4yvnKPniKuhVHpREQCCo/s800-Ic42/US-Fiat-Abarth-Spider-NY-25d.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-I_FNSYFJwz4/VvS8jsIaRXI/AAAAAAAAuDQ/Y1SDKSWgUDkvcxYzmttcOxhh-wZlwoLWwCCo/s800-Ic42/US-Fiat-Abarth-spider-NY-4.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Bnl4p8V66O4/VvS7EI7I7GI/AAAAAAAAuC0/xUKR5sYtfiYsrPNUa80AtIKfDMnfZsPkACCo/s800-Ic42/US-Fiat-Abarth-Spider-NY-28d.jpg

Fiat500USA
03-25-2016, 01:01 AM
Fiat 124 Spider Elaborazione Abarth emblem. Why wasn't in on the press images? Here's some inside info: the emblems just came in and didn't make the image deadline.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-cPxFNo1BYxw/VvTEubAZVhI/AAAAAAAAuEA/VaMKuFMwRxMw1uqMtBN2F49WkQPvBIGHwCCo/s800-Ic42/Fiat-Spider-Abarth-at-NY_62.jpg

Fiat500USA
03-25-2016, 01:05 AM
Under car images of the Elaborazione Abarth:

Front suspension:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Pg3HsIJ61Y8/VvTEbuuL3MI/AAAAAAAAuEE/GyEALRXXcWYghq24scqD3TKBIjlatDJLgCCo/s800-Ic42/Abarth-124-Front-suspension.jpg

Trans pan and exhaust pipe:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-45CujJklV6g/VvS6GuOe_gI/AAAAAAAAuCY/fVcZoU5twQUA1qbwUrGCZEd7x9vWc9nnQCCo/s800-Ic42/US-Fiat-Abarth-Spider-NY-23d.jpg

Rear suspension:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ROOrVppmx7Q/VvTEnk494RI/AAAAAAAAuEM/jzPGeKZPEzIA1QK6AqJ__d-xhrUJ_xwkACCo/s800-Ic42/Abarth-124-rear-suspension%2B%25281%2529.jpg

Elaborazione Abarth rear muffler:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-LSW8BVhyskk/VvS6Pc3mssI/AAAAAAAAuCY/E8t-w1XxPtAFO1OtbUvQr4QAZ8h4TTvqwCCo/s800-Ic42/US-Fiat-Abarth-Spider-NY-24d.jpg

Fiat500USA
03-25-2016, 01:08 AM
thanks! and I didn't know what the plug was when I saw it in red from Geneva photos.

I remembered that and asked Bob Broderdorf about it. He actually called an engineer for us to find out!

Fiat500USA
03-25-2016, 01:17 AM
The lovely Megan Agrusa, Fiat Brand Ambassador. If Megan looks familiar, she has been representing Fiat for 6 years now and does a great job.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-vqKn9ezvW0A/VvS9IHV6bxI/AAAAAAAAuDc/LutIHgY7XakQKXFnGjvM9IPgyjclr_6agCCo/s800-Ic42/US-Fiat-Abarth-spider-NY-9-cropb.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-HKB_b8J-eHk/VvS9YiJcQrI/AAAAAAAAuDg/gbTz3wXEiP8jRiJmbcPJHuMrE1QZJcrFQCCo/s800-Ic42/US-Fiat-Abarth-spider-NY-10crop-a.jpg

Amacento
03-25-2016, 08:16 AM
Still not an ABARTH… still unacceptable AND disrespectful.

Joe
03-25-2016, 09:55 AM
I don't understand all of the hate. It's not an Abarth, they're not calling it an Abarth. They are basically calling it a FIAT 124 with Abarth modifications, or upgrades. Which is exactly what it is. What's wrong with that.....

MrFiat
03-25-2016, 11:00 AM
-- while Fiats is a bit dated, not so mass appeal and well while the 500 is doing well for its niche...most who even remember the "glory days" of Fiat are what we might consider a bit long in the tooth. Am I wrong? ...

Yes and No. I resemble that "long in the tooth" remark and proudly so. Sure, the Miata has a loyal fan base. It's a fun automobile. Its been around a long time. Also remember that it was a direct knock-off of the British Lotus Elan and that was a car with a very BIG soul. Mazda took what was already a cult classic and marketed their version of it successfully. All to their credit.

Fiat's reentry into the North American car market is obviously much more recent and hasn't had very much time to capture the heads and hearts of the newer car buying generation. But that takes time. And good marketing skill. The Fiat 500 was a very good start.

There is no doubt that Fiat is capable of building cars with enough "spirit" to give the established brands a run for their money. They certainly have the experience not only in their own right but also with the combined skill set and established image of their Abarth subsidiary. Fiat needs to use those assets carefully in order to succeed. Just the way Mazda did. What you are seeing as A-124 "hate" isn't hate at all. Think of it more as a fervant attempt at good advice for the Fiat folks.

You're right in one respect. Old goats like myself are trying hard to help Fiat return to some semblance of its glory days. Wishful thinking, perhaps. but I and many others believe it can be done. If we're right, North America will eventually be blessed with access to the kind of cars we've been clamoring for, for many years now.

Remember -- the Lotus Elan was a cult classic when the Miata was created. The Abarth Works have produced many cult classics. If Fiat leverages this asset properly, they will eventually succeed. Used improperly they will fail. --- no hate -- just good advice from one long in the tooth.

Amacento
03-25-2016, 11:00 AM
I don't understand all of the hate. It's not an Abarth, they're not calling it an Abarth. They are basically calling it a FIAT 124 with Abarth modifications, or upgrades. Which is exactly what it is. What's wrong with that.....
It's the use of the ABARTH nameplate as a trim level. ABARTH is not a trim level... ABARTH is a street & track performance marque. Let's remember that... I don't care how little USAmericans care about the name (it's a marque with some serious history).

Is the 500L an Elaborazione ABARTH? It has an ABARTH motor. Is the 500X an Elaborazione an ABARTH? It has an ABARTH motor and other performance goodies. Is a Dodge Dart an Elaborazione ABARTH or an Elaborazione Alfa Romeo? What about the Chrysler 200S?

I trust this explains the point.

Amacento
03-25-2016, 11:05 AM
... The Abarth Elabaroation seems somewhat like a Miata club (perhaps) but Mazdaspeed cars have always had significant/non questionable performance (power +) upgrades over the base... basically a poser... while Fiats is a bit dated, not so mass appeal and well while the 500 is doing well for its niche...most who even remember the "glory days" of Fiat are what we might consider a bit long in the tooth. Am I wrong?...
I edited your comment to the core statement.

The only club I like associated with ABARTH is JOLLY CLUB.

Amacento
03-25-2016, 11:21 AM
A few reasons ABARTH is not ancient history:

1. Targa Newfoundland (stock ABARTH 500 not only finishes... it finishes well in Open Class)
http://image.superstreetonline.com/f/41984240+w+h+q80+re0+cr1/epcp-1304-04-o%2Btarga-newfoundland%2Bfiat-500

2. Schumacher's son participates in Formula 4 (Powered by ABARTH)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formulaone/article-3054590/Michael-Schumacher-s-son-Mick-set-Formula-4-debut-16-year-old-protege-follows-father-s-footsteps.html

3. ABARTh 695 OT will be used for future Trofeo ABARTH competitions
http://en.wheelsage.org/fiat/500/iii/100537/pictures/wbpqhp/

4. ABARTH is a major sponsor in MotoSport
http://abarthcarsuk.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/150128_Abarth_Yamaha_1121.jpg

5. ABARTH 695 Record
http://cdn.tuttosport.com/images/2015/10/19/091124880-bddbb441-9529-43f7-b31e-e7104bbf3470.jpg

6. Romeo Ferraris Cinquone Gara
http://www.motorinolimits.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Cinquone.jpg

7. The return to WRC
http://www.carpixel.net/w/724f9ce54eb85c0783fa7eaaceb93dee/abarth-124-rally-car-wallpaper-40555.jpg

That's right... ABARTH is actually a street & track living legend.

http://www.abarthcars.co.uk/

MrFiat
03-25-2016, 11:23 AM
I don't understand all of the hate. It's not an Abarth, they're not calling it an Abarth. They are basically calling it a FIAT 124 with Abarth modifications, or upgrades. Which is exactly what it is. What's wrong with that.....

Not hate at all, Joe. We love the car itself. My post above replies to that. But you are mistaken in one respect. The A-124 is being referred to as an "Elaborazione Abarth". It's badged that way and that reference alone will give the wrong impression of what the brand is all about.

Fiat has made that mistake before. They tried to capitalize on the Abarth name when they tried to mass market the Abarth OT-1000. They took the Fiat 850 spider and put a beefed-up motor in it and called it an Abarth. Sold a few of them to die-hards like myself, but overall it was a fizzle. We've seen it happen before and are trying to warn FCA not to make the same mistakes again. No hate --- just a bit of frustration with FCA's current marketing strategy.

MrFiat
03-25-2016, 11:40 AM
A few reasons ABARTH is not ancient history:

That's right... ABARTH is actually a street & track living legend.

You GO, my friend !! Seems like the dyed in the wool Abarthisti's role these days is to educate. And you are doing a mighty fine job in that respect.
But as the saying goes, "there's no teaching without learning". Looks like we've got a long hard road ahead of us. beerchug

MrFiat
03-25-2016, 01:23 PM
I don't understand all of the hate. It's not an Abarth, they're not calling it an Abarth. They are basically calling it a FIAT 124 with Abarth modifications, or upgrades. Which is exactly what it is. What's wrong with that.....

I get what you're saying, I reallly do. But please help me out here. Would you still be supportive if Fiat put in a few parts from a Mondiale instead and then put a sign on the side (as it does now) with the words "Elaborazione Ferrari" alongside the Ferrari prancing horse emblem?

Amacento
03-25-2016, 02:35 PM
You GO, my friend !! Seems like the dyed in the wool Abarthisti's role these days is to educate. And you are doing a mighty fine job in that respect.
But as the saying goes, "there's no teaching without learning". Looks like we've got a long hard road ahead of us. beerchug
There, as they say, it is. Thanks for the kind words.

Your point, regarding "Elaborazione Ferrari", is well made. Yes... there were Tributo Maserati & Ferrari ABARTHs, but they were designs for a specific purpose (mostly loaner cars for Maserati & Ferrari owners). They were not trying to use the high end marque names as a trim level for the A500.

Jtpc2007
03-25-2016, 02:48 PM
sad to see the alcantara dash of European model is missing.
guess that will be optional here like it is on Miata. :/

shagghie
03-25-2016, 02:54 PM
I am still not convinced this is how it will arrive. Either that, or perhaps the *real* Abarth version (badged and all) is being pushed out further? Put another way... 160hp engine can't be the highest engine variant this platform is destined for, and I think FCA may be playing that old game we all know and hate so well... incrementally add more engine options/power over the run of the car instead of getting it right the first time. Really, what else are we left to conclude here?

Love your examples Amacento!

Joe
03-25-2016, 04:32 PM
But FIAT isn't saying that this is an ABARTH 124 and it isn't an ABARTH 124. It's a FIAT 124 with factory ABARTH upgrades. I don't see a problem with that. MB does AMG sport appearance packages, BMW does M sport packages, Cadillac does Vsport and Audi does S-Line. I get the argument that it should be called something else, but I don't think they want to add more names and more confusion....

Amacento
03-25-2016, 05:18 PM
But FIAT isn't saying that this is an ABARTH 124 and it isn't an ABARTH 124. It's a FIAT 124 with factory ABARTH upgrades. I don't see a problem with that. MB does AMG sport appearance packages, BMW does M sport packages, Cadillac does Vsport and Audi does S-Line. I get the argument that it should be called something else, but I don't think they want to add more names and more confusion....
Right.

ABARTH isn't like AMG, SRT, RS, ST, etc. ABARTH is akin to Shelby. Does a Shelby anything resemble and perform like the non-Shelby? This F124EA is a sport package on a standard F124. Is the A500 simply a sport package on the standard F500? No. It's a different model based upon an existing design. The A500 is re-engineered... not just dressed up. That's the ABARTH way. Anything less should not bear his name. We cannot help you if you cannot understand or agree with these base facts.

shagghie
03-25-2016, 06:42 PM
It is fair enough that they are calling it an Elaboration edition however...that is a long-standing tradition in Italy, and has been done before by shops other than Abarth, like Zagato.. for example:

"Zagato Elaborazione
Between 1991 and 1992, a number of owners allowed Zagato to modify their 348 TBs into Zagato Elaboraziones. The changes were all cosmetic and the engine and running gear remained identical to the 348 TB.

At the front of the car a new bumper removed the original’s fake central grille and also replaced the Ferrari prancing horse emblem. The side intake cooling ducts were enlarged and the engine cover was replaced with a glass item allowing a view of the V8 engine. A new triple tail-light arrangement and an electronically operated spoiler were added. A double bubble roof was added, the idea being that Zagato could lower the roofline of a car, but retain enough headroom for each occupant. Other modifications included custom OZ Racing alloy wheels, external fuel filler caps and a completely reworked interior including a three-inch rear view screen and suede upholstery. Zagato initially announced a production run of 22 examples, but only 10 or 12 cars were made." -wiki

So to an Italian, perhaps the naming and marketing is appropriate.

To an American, again, I should only speak for myself, however this indicates that Fiat *have not yet built the Abarth 124" for our market. (simple as that). Will it come in 2018-2020? One can only hope, especially since we know they've built a 300hp rally version already.

Winoman
03-25-2016, 07:41 PM
Yes and No. I resemble that "long in the tooth" remark and proudly so. Sure, the Miata has a loyal fan base. It's a fun automobile. Its been around a long time. Also remember that it was a direct knock-off of the British Lotus Elan and that was a car with a very BIG soul. Mazda took what was already a cult classic and marketed their version of it successfully. All to their credit.

Fiat's reentry into the North American car market is obviously much more recent and hasn't had very much time to capture the heads and hearts of the newer car buying generation. But that takes time. And good marketing skill. The Fiat 500 was a very good start.

There is no doubt that Fiat is capable of building cars with enough "spirit" to give the established brands a run for their money. They certainly have the experience not only in their own right but also with the combined skill set and established image of their Abarth subsidiary. Fiat needs to use those assets carefully in order to succeed. Just the way Mazda did. What you are seeing as A-124 "hate" isn't hate at all. Think of it more as a fervant attempt at good advice for the Fiat folks.

You're right in one respect. Old goats like myself are trying hard to help Fiat return to some semblance of its glory days. Wishful thinking, perhaps. but I and many others believe it can be done. If we're right, North America will eventually be blessed with access to the kind of cars we've been clamoring for, for many years now.

Remember -- the Lotus Elan was a cult classic when the Miata was created. The Abarth Works have produced many cult classics. If Fiat leverages this asset properly, they will eventually succeed. Used improperly they will fail. --- no hate -- just good advice from one long in the tooth.

I'm also not a youngster (except at heart). Even so the original Lotus Elan was just a bit before my time - but I know and understand the car well. I see the potential for the 124 Abarth to be a modern day version of this car (at least in a sense....a seriously stripped down/lightened ND Miata might even more accurately fit the bill) - A 124 Abarth - with modern day power (at least reasonably so - I understand it isn't meant to be a muscle car) and with the requisite handling tweaks - could be something very special indeed. This has been my interest in this car from the start. I'm not hating this hybrid Abarth badged 124 per se....it is what it is (looks great at least)...but I am concerned that they are watering down the Abarth heritage a bit...and this will be dangerous in the long run IMO. Its also not the car I'm interested in...I want the real deal....and it seems it will come (eventually)....I can be patient. But Fiat is playing a dangerous game IMO - with its premium (sport) products reputation. Is this really a road they want to be going down?

shagghie
03-25-2016, 08:03 PM
I'm also not a youngster (except at heart). Even so the original Lotus Elan was just a bit before my time - but I know and understand the car well. I see the potential for the 124 Abarth to be a modern day version of this car (at least in a sense....a seriously stripped down/lightened ND Miata might even more accurately fit the bill) - A 124 Abarth - with modern day power (at least reasonably so - I understand it isn't meant to be a muscle car) and with the requisite handling tweaks - could be something very special indeed. This has been my interest in this car from the start. I'm not hating this hybrid Abarth badged 124 per se....it is what it is (looks great at least)...but I am concerned that they are watering down the Abarth heritage a bit...and this will be dangerous in the long run IMO. Its also not the car I'm interested in...I want the real deal....and it seems it will come (eventually)....I can be patient. But Fiat is playing a dangerous game IMO - with its premium (sport) products reputation. Is this really a road they want to be going down?

wow that last bit is really on point and expressed better than I could have done myself. They are indeed playing a risky game and going in 'soft' with the Abarth name/word is probably the MOST risky way to go when entering an American horse-power loving market. The irony here is that even those of us that are die hard fiat heads that normally defend that a car is less about straight line and more about twisties and feel/sound, etc.. even us... are aligned with the unflattering 160hp number in the year 2016. So we are ironically aligned with the 'sterotypical' American that asks first 'How many ponies does she got?" before any other question about a car.
So where is Fiat aiming here? If they are aiming for some 'middle ground' between both sides of this pendulum, they will hit *nothing*. I can't think of a buyer for the car that won't think that 160 is a little bit of a nose-in-the-air approach to entering a market in 2016. If the car weighed 1750lbs, sure... put 160hp in a Dallara and I'm there...

Winoman
03-25-2016, 08:12 PM
Its funny - I'm not a Fiat guy per se - never owned one. I have always appreciated the 2 seat roadster segment and fully understand what its all about. These cars - Fiat, Triumph, Lotus, MG, Austin Healy etc - always appealed to me over the normal desired muscle cars of the day. My version of these cars was a 1989 Supercharged MR2 that I owned for around 20 years and 130K+ miles (that my neighbor still owns and daily drives). I've always been a fun in the twisties kind of guy. All the same - I appreciate some oomph....and owning some pretty heavily modded cars of late - I can't go back (to something that isn't at least quicker than a modern mini van). I may not be your typical 124 buyer or Fiat enthusiast....but perhaps I am someone that Fiat might be interested in selling a car to. I'm certainly interested Fiat - so offer me a car that hits my buttons....you're almost there...

MrFiat
03-25-2016, 08:45 PM
It is fair enough that they are calling it an Elaboration edition however...that is a long-standing tradition in Italy, and has been done before by shops other than Abarth, like Zagato.. for example:

"Zagato Elaborazione
Between 1991 and 1992, ----

So to an Italian, perhaps the naming and marketing is appropriate.

To an American, again, I should only speak for myself, however this indicates that Fiat *have not yet built the Abarth 124" for our market. (simple as that). Will it come in 2018-2020? One can only hope, especially since we know they've built a 300hp rally version already.

Alas, perhaps you're right, Shagghie. Maybe this is really what the North American market wants right now. The purist in me still rebels at the idea, at least in principle. But then again, who am I to blow against the wind? Fingers crossed that FCA will see fit to do the right thing where Abarth is concerned. Time will tell.

Robert Nixon
03-25-2016, 09:21 PM
We already have the Miata, the 124 Spider coming, so I am looking for an Abarth version to be more. Like the FIAT 500 circa 100HP makes a huge improvement to the 160HP Abarth with tighter suspension, there should be a big deal difference.

On a related note, with the VW GTI RS and the Focus RS coming out way, (by that I mean 230-300HP hatches), an Abarth hatch like that would be great while we're at it!

Amacento
03-25-2016, 10:52 PM
It is fair enough that they are calling it an Elaboration edition however...that is a long-standing tradition in Italy, and has been done before by shops other than Abarth, like Zagato...

So to an Italian, perhaps the naming and marketing is appropriate.

To an American, again, I should only speak for myself, however this indicates that Fiat *have not yet built the Abarth 124" for our market. (simple as that). Will it come in 2018-2020? One can only hope, especially since we know they've built a 300hp rally version already.
I tend to disagree, my friend. I don't think you'll find many Italian models with this usage. Why? ABARTH & Co. did not partake in this type of thing. Even the Giannini trim/fashion plate side of the family business simply called the FIATs they tricked out Giannini. What's curious is that part of the business only produced "elaborations" of the standard FIATs. Of course, in some cases, one could purchase performance kits. You used the example of Zagato. Zagato didn't even always use "Elaborazione". The reason being Zagato, a design house, was often hired by the true carrozzerias to develop the skins and/or interiors. This allowed camps, like ABARTH & Co., to focus on the suspensions, engines, transmissions, exhausts and other mechanical improvements. This F124EA doesn't follow any Latin automobile tradition I've heard/read about… and I am Latin.

FIAT doesn't need to hire ABARTH (and that isn't what happened). ABARTH is a wholly owned marque under the FIAT umbrella. It is a division that specializes in street/track performance versions of standard FIATs… nothing like Zagato. In fact, Karl "Carlo" Abarth (himself) hired Zagato on a few occasions. But thanks for trying to make sense of this nonsensical call on the part of FIAT USA.

morrisg
03-25-2016, 11:46 PM
My fingers are still crossed that Fiat tried to get a 200hp tune through the EPA and didn't quite make it and that's why this EA version arrived with the same engine tune as the base 124. But I may be completely dreaming this up and will soon stub my toe and awaken with tears running from my eyes. If so, I will watch the aftermarket carefully, waiting for someone to crack these new ECUs so they can offer me what I really want: all 200 horses in a lightweight stylish package.

shagghie
03-26-2016, 01:12 AM
My fingers are still crossed that Fiat tried to get a 200hp tune through the EPA and didn't quite make it and that's why this EA version arrived with the same engine tune as the base 124. But I may be completely dreaming this up and will soon stub my toe and awaken with tears running from my eyes. If so, I will watch the aftermarket carefully, waiting for someone to crack these new ECUs so they can offer me what I really want: all 200 horses in a lightweight stylish package.

I don't see why a voltage clamp piggyback for $300 wouldnt solve most of this for us....

Amacento... Excellent thank you, and makes very much sense.

Rags747
03-26-2016, 06:25 AM
I'm definitely seeing this as the sport model of the 124. Especially since it lacks the Abarth badging. It's kinda like what Mercedes is doing recently with the AMG name. They offer a model called the Mercedes-AMG C43 below the well known Mercedes C63 AMG. It's an in between version that that balances the features of both the more luxury oriented versions and the full jam high performance models. I see this version of the 124 they're giving us as similar to that. Definitely a 500T, but not a full jam Abarth. This only means we really could see a legit Abarth version for this market down the road with some serious performance. After all, when the 500 launched in North America, it was a while before they gave us the Abarth. I bought my Sport in March of 2011. Back then we didn't even know if we would even be getting the 500 Abarth.

Yes I agree with this post as it pretty much sums up what I have been thinking. This is Not an Abarth, it is a Fiat 124 Abarth Line...just as BMW does with their M Line or as MB does with their AMG pkg. This gets more choices on the dealers floors this summer, a real Abarth badged car will arrive 6 months later just as it did with the 500 and u can bet Fiat will charge a pretty penny for it.

Amacento
03-26-2016, 08:04 AM
It's already been mentioned, but FIAT could have just as easily called this the 124 Spider Sportivo (that is a historical name… just the 500 Sport is historical -- 1958 don Dante Giolito). That would give them three (Classico, Lusso, Sportivo) versus the current two trim levels without watering down the ABARTH name.

ABARTH & Co. is nothing like AMG. Abarth is the name of a man who did a very specific thing for the worlds of Alfa Romeo, Autobianchi, Cisitalia, Ferrari, FIAT, Lancia, Porsche and Simca. There are seven FIATs, eight with this one, in history that bear the ABARTH name without being developed by ABARTH & Co. They only one that enjoyed a real measure of success is the Punto ABARTH… now defunct. The Punto had a cult following and the stung version is a big part of the reason ABARTH & Co. division was restored. The first true modern ABARTH is the A500. The Grande Punto ABARTH (including Evo version) was also introduced in 2007. So, we have this wonderful tradition revived and, then, this happens?

http://media.autoblog.it/a/aba/abarth-punto-evo-e-500c/abarth_punto_evo_500c_01.jpg

ophidia31
03-26-2016, 09:20 AM
I was just taking sportivo from the shoe company. No idea that fiat used that before. lol

MrFiat
03-26-2016, 12:56 PM
With all the modifications I've made over the years, I think that badge would be much more appropriate on my car !! If Fiat wants to donate one, I wouldn't object. :eagerness:

http://i67.tinypic.com/n4a4jk.jpg

http://i64.tinypic.com/mhr47b.jpg

Fiat500USA
03-26-2016, 01:18 PM
Trying to make sense of this, a question that comes to mind is what are enthusiasts expectations and wants for the car? Obviously more horsepower, but how much? 200hp just seems like too much a stretch for the 1.4L engine keeping in mind that the OEM needs to guarantee emission compliance for 8 years/80,000 miles, and the nature of people that complain about high performance cars using more oil and such, but what do you say?

Wondering if we can agree the European Abarth 124 is a genuine Abarth? It does have the 30 hp or so more than the standard European car, so that seems to check the hp box. Plus it has all the suspension and brake goodies as well as the trim, which Abarth was never shy about applying to his cars.

Now let's look at our car. Horsepower is pretty close to what the Europeans get and the torque is the same. Don't let the stated hp figures fool you. The Spider engine makes a very easy 160 hp here under very strict SAE guidlines. In Europe, according to a well placed source, the engine calibration is very similar but also there are different standards and more leeway so the actual hp difference is not as great as what is on paper. The point is only the sharpest professional driver would notice differences like this.

So if we have pretty much the same power, what else is missing? The standard Brembo brakes and the Racing Alcantara trim kit which is Alcantara trim on the dash and the steering wheel. And then we are missing the Abarth badging front and rear. Other than that, everything else is there.

According to my company source, these things that are missing as standard keep the price of our car down compared to the European Abarth which lists at €40,000 - or €7,000 more than a Lusso Spider. Value for money was a major part of the equation, so when we find out the price some of this may start to come together.

So it seems to all boil down to horsepower. What realistic figure would make everything right?

MrFiat
03-26-2016, 02:01 PM
Trying to make sense of this, a question that comes to mind is what are enthusiasts expectations and wants for the car? Obviously more horsepower, but how much? 200hp just seems like too much a stretch for the 1.4L engine keeping in mind that the OEM needs to guarantee emission compliance for 8 years/80,000 miles, and the nature of people that complain about high performance cars using more oil and such, but what do you say?

Wondering if we can agree the European Abarth 124 is a genuine Abarth? It does have the 30 hp or so more than the standard European car, so that seems to check the hp box. Plus it has all the suspension and brake goodies as well as the trim, which Abarth was never shy about applying to his cars.

Now let's look at our car. Horsepower is pretty close to what the Europeans get and the torque is the same. Don't let the stated hp figures fool you. The Spider engine makes a very easy 160 hp here under very strict SAE guidlines. In Europe, according to a well placed source, the engine calibration is very similar but also there are different standards and more leeway so the actual hp difference is not as great as what is on paper. The point is only the sharpest professional driver would notice differences like this.

So if we have pretty much the same power, what else is missing? The standard Brembo brakes and the Racing Alcantara trim kit which is Alcantara trim on the dash and the steering wheel. And then we are missing the Abarth badging front and rear. Other than that, everything else is there.

According to my company source, these things that are missing as standard keep the price of our car down compared to the European Abarth which lists at €40,000 - or €7,000 more than a Lusso Spider. Value for money was a major part of the equation, so when we find out the price some of this may start to come together.

So it seems to all boil down to horsepower. What realistic figure would make everything right?

An interesting dilemma, to be sure, Chris. Perhaps horsepower is not the primary issue at the heart of this controversy. And perhaps we have two disparate argument going on at the same time. I believe the 124 was designed by Fiat, not their Abarth division. Am I correct on that point? If so, here's a question (which may or may not help clear things up). Was the A-124 designed by the Abarth division or did Fiat design the car on their own, borrowing parts from their Abarth division?

The A-124 appears to be a 124 with some Abarth parts installed. If true, I think the argument becomes philosophical. Some of us feel that if the Abarth division designed the car then it should be called an Abarth. If Fiat designed the car, it should be called a Fiat. The problem for some of us is not with the car, but with name they're placing on the side of it. Yes, the badge is technically accurate (to a point). but most North Americans don't have a clue what "Elaborazione" means. The badge says "Abarth" and that is what the average North American will read and absorb. I suspect that was intentional on the part of the marketeers. A bit sleazy in my opinion. Truth is, if it is not an Abarth designed car, then it's a Fiat and without direct design input from the Abarth division there should be no reference to the name attached to the car no matter how much horsepower it has. Does any of that make any sense?

I'm completely willing to be overruled on any of this, by the way.

ophidia31
03-26-2016, 04:20 PM
What it boils down to is: Enthusiasts wanted the alfa motor. Plain and simple. De-tuned or not. If this was a case of EPA, there shouldn't have been any issue getting it re-certified as the 4C is already certified. When they (enthusiasts) didn't see the Alfa motor in there, they got pissed when it has not much more power than a sport Miata. Me, I could care less about the motor thats in there now as I know the potential on the 1.4t, but would have been happy with the 1.7t as well. I was just glad it wasnt the 2.0 NA from the Miata. So, if this was even a de-tuned 1.7t, this thread wouldn't even be as big as gotten.

MrFiat
03-26-2016, 04:57 PM
What it boils down to is: Enthusiasts wanted the alfa motor. Plain and simple. De-tuned or not. If this was a case of EPA, there shouldn't have been any issue getting it re-certified as the 4C is already certified. When they (enthusiasts) didn't see the Alfa motor in there, they got pissed when it has not much more power than a sport Miata. Me, I could care less about the motor thats in there now as I know the potential on the 1.4t, but would have been happy with the 1.7t as well. I was just glad it wasnt the 2.0 NA from the Miata. So, if this was even a de-tuned 1.7t, this thread wouldn't even be as big as gotten.

That is absolutely true. But it seems to me that there are two separate complaints being discussed in this thread. On one hand there is the issue of the motor and the hp it produces. This group seems uninterested in how the name is used as long as there is sufficient horsepower.

Then there is the other group that objects to the use of the Abarth name in principle since the car was not created by the Abarth division.
(the jury is out on that one, I hope Chris , or someone that really knows can yay or nay that point.)

In both instances, at the end of the day, the concerns of both groups may or may not hold water, but the interested parties are certainly passionate about their respective positions on the matter.

doverosx
03-26-2016, 06:25 PM
The North American Abarth want created by Abarth either.... More like SRT. That said SRT brought their changes to Abarth and got the Abarth nod of approval. I think we can all accept the above process as being legit enough for the NA market. SRT knows more about tuning for NA than Abarth does.

The 124 Abarth doesn't need a whole bunch of power, how many here have driven or raced a Miata? I autocrossed an NA Miata and that thing put a smile on my face with less than 100whp. That car with our engine will kick ass. But I do think that an Abarth version should never be milked like the version we see, any other name is good in my book but a successful Abarth treatment process has already proven itself, why change anything?

MrFiat
03-26-2016, 07:21 PM
The North American Abarth want created by Abarth either.... More like SRT. That said SRT brought their changes to Abarth and got the Abarth nod of approval. I think we can all accept the above process as being legit enough for the NA market. SRT knows more about tuning for NA than Abarth does.

The 124 Abarth doesn't need a whole bunch of power, how many here have driven or raced a Miata? I autocrossed an NA Miata and that thing put a smile on my face with less than 100whp. That car with our engine will kick ass. But I do think that an Abarth version should never be milked like the version we see, any other name is good in my book but a successful Abarth treatment process has already proven itself, why change anything?

I hear you, but I believe the 500 Abarth was first introduced in Europe and Abarth was the principal designer. I'm pretty sure it was an Abarth creation right out of the box. SRT most likely had a great deal of input (if not most or all) on the NA version, but that was strictly improvements on the original Abarth design.

I do agree that a big bunch of power is nice but unnecessary. I've had tons of fun in cars with 47 hp. I'm fine with 160 in the 124. It's a blast in the 500. Should be great in the 124. The A-124 (correct me if I'm wrong) was a Fiat creation, not an Abarth division model. I still think Fiat should use the Abarth brand name exclusively for cars that were designed with heavy input from the Abarth works. It's a Fiat for goodness sake. Market it as one.

I probably sound like a broken record, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it. :soapbox:

Amacento
03-26-2016, 08:39 PM
I hear you, but I believe the 500 Abarth was first introduced in Europe and Abarth was the principal designer. I'm pretty sure it was an Abarth creation right out of the box. SRT most likely had a great deal of input (if not most or all) on the NA version, but that was strictly improvements on the original Abarth design.

I do agree that a big bunch of power is nice but unnecessary. I've had tons of fun in cars with 47 hp. I'm fine with 160 in the 124. It's a blast in the 500. Should be great in the 124. The A-124 (correct me if I'm wrong) was a Fiat creation, not an Abarth division model. I still think Fiat should use the Abarth brand name exclusively for cars that were designed with heavy input from the Abarth works. It's a Fiat for goodness sake. Market it as one.

I probably sound like a broken record, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it. :soapbox:
They could have worked on the AR Giulietta (get it ready for the NA market). We don't require tons of power… we're doing things the F1 way (lighter).

SRT works in concert with ABARTH & Co. on FCA product brought to NA. Let's be very clear… no matter how difficult it is for USAmericans to wrap their craniums around… Maserati-Alfa Romeo-ABARTH performance group is the principle source of tech for FCA. The new Challengers & Chargers will benefit from the AR Guilia. That group was born from the Ferrari-Maserati relationship… not FIAT S.p.A. purchasing CDJR. We'd see a Viper that could out perform a Maserati and/or Ferrari if SRT was so key to FIAT USA performance. By the way, the Dodge plants are tooled by FIAT.

What I think most naysayers require is an A124 that out performs an F124 in more than just turns. It doesn't take much to do that… no need to upset the EPAngels. I don't see 200hp as necessary. 180hp, that is 20 more than the A500, would be adequate.

Finally, don Roberto Giolito promised FIATisti & ABARTHisti the new generation of ABARTHs would be more distinguished from the FIATs they are based upon. How does the F124EA accomplish that? And who are the Dodge boys to screw with our heritage… especially seeing their entire 2 year campaign has been based upon heritage.

Does that make sense?

MrFiat
03-26-2016, 09:41 PM
They could have worked on the AR Giulietta (get it ready for the NA market). We don't require tons of power… we're doing things the F1 way (lighter).

SRT works in concert with ABARTH & Co. on FCA product brought to NA. Let's be very clear… no matter how difficult it is for USAmericans to wrap their craniums around… Maserati-Alfa Romeo-ABARTH performance group is the principle source of tech for FCA. The new Challengers & Chargers will benefit from the AR Guilia. That group was born from the Ferrari-Maserati relationship… not FIAT S.p.A. purchasing CDJR. We'd see a Viper that could out perform a Maserati and/or Ferrari if SRT was so key to FIAT USA performance. By the way, the Dodge plants are tooled by FIAT.

What I think most naysayers require is an A124 that out performs an F124 in more than just turns. It doesn't take much to do that… no need to upset the EPAngels. I don't see 200hp as necessary. 180hp, that is 20 more than the A500, would be adequate.

Finally, don Roberto Giolito promised FIATisti & ABARTHisti the new generation of ABARTHs would be more distinguished from the FIATs they are based upon. How does the F124EA accomplish that? And who are the Dodge boys to screw with our heritage… especially seeing their entire 2 year campaign has been based upon heritage.

Does that make sense?

It sure does. This answers several key questions that I've been wondering about for awhile now. Especially the fact that the Maserati-Alfa Romeo-ABARTH performance group is the principle source of tech for FCAm not just the Abarth division. Thanks for pointing that out. It brings a lot of otherwise fuzzy things into focus.

rustbucket
03-26-2016, 11:46 PM
We'd see a Viper that could out perform a Maserati and/or Ferrari if SRT was so key to FIAT USA performance.

That Viper already exists- the 2016 Viper ACR which holds 13 track records, "the most track records of any production car in the world" according to Hot Rod. One cannot deny the talent of the people in Auburn Hills or their contributions (much of 500X/Renegade for example) or the Chrysler 300C's contributions to the Maserati Ghibli. Engineering knowhow flows in both directions (plus some others) and we are better off for it.

Fiat500USA
03-27-2016, 12:54 AM
What it boils down to is: Enthusiasts wanted the alfa motor. Plain and simple. De-tuned or not. If this was a case of EPA, there shouldn't have been any issue getting it re-certified as the 4C is already certified. When they (enthusiasts) didn't see the Alfa motor in there, they got pissed when it has not much more power than a sport Miata. Me, I could care less about the motor thats in there now as I know the potential on the 1.4t, but would have been happy with the 1.7t as well. I was just glad it wasnt the 2.0 NA from the Miata. So, if this was even a de-tuned 1.7t, this thread wouldn't even be as big as gotten.


True, the 1750 Turbo Benzina would certainly be something special and it is used in the Abarth 124 Rally. For the street car, it is hard to imagine they could come up with a reasonable price point using this engine, though. The 1750 TBi is an expensive, Direct Injected engine, with dual continuous variable valve timing plus was revamped with the help of Ferrari for use in the 4C. With a power range of 240 - 300 hp, it seems like quite a lot of engine for an reasonably affordable roadster. Detuning it would also seem to be a waste of such an engine. The 1.4L also holds an advantage of being lighter, which fits the light weight roadster concept which is the hallmark of the chassis. The choice of this engine makes sense in this context. Now if they were building a Z4 priced competitor that would be different.

Amacento
03-27-2016, 01:04 AM
That Viper already exists- the 2016 Viper ACR which holds 13 track records, "the most track records of any production car in the world" according to Hot Rod. One cannot deny the talent of the people in Auburn Hills or their contributions (much of 500X/Renegade for example) or the Chrysler 300C's contributions to the Maserati Ghibli. Engineering knowhow flows in both directions (plus some others) and we are better off for it.
I'll tackle this one in parts.

1) All [honest] USAmerican rags have qualified Viper ACR performance with the inclusion of a price range. The only car that has ever been tested against LaFerrari (no longer the fastest Ferrari on the planet) is the Porsche 918… the rarer AWD as opposed to the Spider the Viper bested. That is easy to verify. Holding 13 records is only significant IF those records matter among Super & Hyper cars. Take it to European tracks and test it in endurance Motorsport. Hell, Lamborghini can bring on their cars… but they are not endurance tested. Also, the braggadocios claims on the USA Viper ACR qualify by using "production car". That doesn't mean it holds the most records of any car. I would take a note from CDJR and not be so quick to brag.

2) The 500X & Renegade are built in Melfi. The 500X was designed & engineered by don Roberto Giolito. He is the head of all FIAT design. The folks at Auburn Hills had ZERO to do with developing the FIAT Wide platform. Despite these facts, FIAT has been very gracious with their inclusion of the USAmerican counterparts. Still, the F.I.R.E. power plant was created ages before FIAT was entertaining the notion of buying CDJR. Don't take my word for it… research beyond USAmerican magazines.

3) The 300 is an MB platform. The Ghibli has seen a few incarnations since 1966. The current (third) generation has a power plant engineered & built by Ferrari. Are you prepared to claim Ferrari F1 cars are running on the MB 300 platform?

4) The SRT group helps prep these cars for the NA market. In reality… even for the most hardcore Mopar or No car person… that is very close to the limit of what they do. I'm not claiming it's an insignificant contribution. I'm just stating USAmericans need to grab hold of some humility and accept the truth.

shagghie
03-27-2016, 01:05 AM
The 1.4L MA can make ~260whp with bolt ons, big turbo and tune.... This means power to weight for the 124 will be close to the 4C after mods. That said, the 1.7L can make 320hp with factory turbo,
Mods, and tune. (Or more). That is getting into crazy HP/weight though...

MrFiat
03-27-2016, 07:10 AM
True, the 1750 Turbo Benzina would certainly be something special and it is used in the Abarth 124 Rally. For the street car, it is hard to imagine they could come up with a reasonable price point using this engine, though. The 1750 TBi is an expensive, Direct Injected engine, with dual continuous variable valve timing plus was revamped with the help of Ferrari for use in the 4C. With a power range of 240 - 300 hp, it seems like quite a lot of engine for an reasonably affordable roadster. Detuning it would also seem to be a waste of such an engine. The 1.4L also holds an advantage of being lighter, which fits the light weight roadster concept which is the hallmark of the chassis. The choice of this engine makes sense in this context. Now if they were building a Z4 priced competitor that would be different.

An interesting thought came to mind when you said " Now if they were building a Z4 priced competitor that would be different".

The automobiles that Abarth produced were alway very expensive. In 1960 when the Abarth Zagato was sold in the US, the list price was $3400.00 That was huge back then. During that same time period one could easily buy the latest Ferrari or an E type Jaguar for well less than $3000. I guess my point is that Abarth always built high priced specialty automobiles and became legendary doing it.

If the brand were to stay true to its roots, does it not stand to reason that the Abarth SHOULD carry a much higher price tag and be built to compete with the likes of Porsche and the performance BMW's ? Now THAT would be something to get excited about.

Amacento
03-27-2016, 08:36 AM
An interesting thought came to mind when you said " Now if they were building a Z4 priced competitor that would be different".

The automobiles that Abarth produced were alway very expensive. In 1960 when the Abarth Zagato was sold in the US, the list price was $3400.00 That was huge back then. During that same time period one could easily buy the latest Ferrari or an E type Jaguar for well less than $3000. I guess my point is that Abarth always built high priced specialty automobiles and became legendary doing it.

If the brand were to stay true to its roots, does it not stand to reason that the Abarth SHOULD carry a much higher price tag and be built to compete with the likes of Porsche and the performance BMW's ? Now THAT would be something to get excited about.
I'm onboard with much of what you posted here, but some thoughts came to mind while reading it.

The ABARTH & Co. you're writing about was known throughout the world for producing superior machines. FIAT has done very little to bring that rep stateside.

The Targa Newfoundland proved the stock A500 can outperform much more powerful cars on a real road course. But Marchionne (and his North American team) has chosen to do close to zero to advertise it. Why? I have no idea. The other participating cars (Ford had a Shelby or two in there) had a lot better aftermarket support than ABARTH USA… not a difficult fete, as the A500 had none. So, a stock ABARTH (with suspension upgrade and a gutted/race prepped interior) outperformed many more powerful cars with great aftermarket support? Is that right? Yes, it is. The rainy week and city street & open road mix (varied terrain) was a perfect playground for our little Scorpione.

http://www.automotiveaddicts.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/500-Abarth-Targa-Newf.jpg

I also mentioned, earlier, ABARTH involvement in F4. That is great news for young people and the older crowd. Don't you think you'd want people to know the motor in the runabout you peddle is powering an FIA recognized sport? Keep in mind, this is happening in more than one country. Add to that -- Ferrari F1 cars bore the FIAT logo.

http://www.automobilesreview.com/uploads/2014/11/ADAC-Formula-4-With-Abarth-Engines-651.jpg

I've read Marchionne lacks interest in Motorsport. Yes, Scuderia Ferrari really got their game together under his leadership. But it took LOTS of convincing for him to allow production of the A124 Rally. I am at a loss for an acceptable reason he isn't keen on touting FIAT and ABARTH ties to excellence in motoring.

http://www.autogaleria.hu/autok/fiat/24-hp-corsa-1902/fiat_24-hp-corsa-1902_r1.jpg
1902 FIAT 24hp Corsa… the first purpose-built race car, yes, is a FIAT.

"Elaborazione ABARTH"? No.

shagghie
03-27-2016, 09:22 AM
There is so much to Amacento's points actually... Books and books and volumes very unique and exceptional racing and heritage! I love this one... Pictures worth a 1000 words in here. watching this... Makes me think ... Imagine all the new models they could produce if they got it right! Abarth X1/9!


http://youtu.be/1CU8s9v-bio

MrFiat
03-27-2016, 09:58 AM
@ Amacento & Shagghie --- Right on the mark, guys. You said what I was trying to say but you both said it much better than I ever could.

Oh, as an aside -- we got an up close and personal look at the Targa Newfoundland A500 rally car. It was at the Abarth track Experience in New Jersey for all to admire.

shagghie
03-27-2016, 10:15 AM
http://youtu.be/2YwCfBVTIzY. Teaching an EVO with 2x the HP ...

21437

Fiat500USA
03-27-2016, 12:26 PM
An interesting thought came to mind when you said " Now if they were building a Z4 priced competitor that would be different".

The automobiles that Abarth produced were alway very expensive. In 1960 when the Abarth Zagato was sold in the US, the list price was $3400.00 That was huge back then. During that same time period one could easily buy the latest Ferrari or an E type Jaguar for well less than $3000. I guess my point is that Abarth always built high priced specialty automobiles and became legendary doing it.

If the brand were to stay true to its roots, does it not stand to reason that the Abarth SHOULD carry a much higher price tag and be built to compete with the likes of Porsche and the performance BMW's ? Now THAT would be something to get excited about.


That would be cool. When I was a teenager in the 70s I had Fiat Abarth pictures hanging up all over my room, so I'm a huge fan and see the value of the Abarth name. I would love to see a full range of Abarth cars here. especially a halo car with killer performance.


However, I can't help thinking an Abarth Z4 competitor wouldn't work here in this country at the moment. There isn't enough brand awareness or volumes to justify the existence of a car like that. How many times do you read about even owners complaining about the price of our cars. I happily paid full list for the cars I bought, so I see the value in the car and the name, but there are many that sadly don't. Advertising, promotion and education would help, no doubt, but with the tiny volumes these cars generate there doesn't seem to be a lot budgeted for that.


Sports cars are really tough to sell now. Remember, without a partner, the odds of there being a new Miata were not looking good. Everything is volume now. Regulations and development costs have precluded making a lot of the little niche models we grew up with. Look at what Alfa is doing and the amount of money being spent to restart their brand. There isn't a lot of money left over to catapult Abarth up where it should be. At least not right now.


As you point out the full fledged Abarth cars were expensive and rivaled the costs of the most expensive cars in the day. Abarth also produced models using Fiat bodies that weren't cheap either, but they were more affordable. Some of these cars just had mild upgrades, too, with plenty 'flash' ( I guess it would be called 'bling' now.LOL). This may be where our Elaborazione fits in, because besides the curious lack of a horsepower increase, there is definitely some elaborazione (suspension tuning, exhaust, trim) done to the standard car.


Abarth was absorbed into Fiat SpA and now FCA, so as far as who designed what, it is not like pre-1971 or even into the 1980s. All styling is now done under Fiat Centro Stile and I can imagine now engineers are assigned different projects to work on and they are probably get moved around. Sometimes they'll do a Fiat, next time a Lancia, maybe an Abarth, etc. I'll see if I can get some more info on who did what as I'm hoping to get a drive in one of the cars at some point. But from what I understand the suspension tuning was "done by Abarth", for whatever that means now in a global company.


I can say that when we went out to Auburn Hills to preview the new Fiat Spider, we were specifically told that the suspension tuning and engineering was done by Italians. The lead engineer Enrico Genchi talks about it here. Note the authentic accent.laugh2



http://youtu.be/Bdf6RjcsgNU

morrisg
03-27-2016, 02:59 PM
I think most of my disappointment comes in not having a "performance" version of the base model in the Fiat 124 EA. Now I understand suspension tuning performance having built a 2009 MX-5 for STR competition: Ohlins, higher rate springs, sway bars, OS Giken LSD, 17x9 wheels & tires, CAI, header + exhaust, aftermarket tune to 190hp+. And I think the Fiat 124 EA has much improved suspension tuning over the factory ND MX5 and possibly more performance / less "comfort" than the base 124 suspension tune. I'm looking forward to test driving both models. But without the engine tune for more power than the base 124, I think the 124 EA falls short and this is where most of my disappointment comes from.

I think there is a market for lightweight high performance cars and it frustrates me that Mazda has never addressed this market. So when Fiat announced the turbo 1.4L MA engine for the 124 I was very very hopeful. And then when the Abarth model was announced my hopes went through the roof. And now the reality, of performance that is on par with the 2.0L NA SkyActiv, well that's just disappointing. What I was hoping for was a model from the factory that approached what I had built for STR, and the 190hp+ tune was an integral part of that build.

Ok, so I know what will be offered in the marketplace, and I will drive all the available models to experience their performance on the road. I will check the pricing and see where things stand. And I will purchase the model that brings me closest to my build starting point at the lowest price, so I have the most money left to complete my build. And I will share what I find with others on this list so we all help each other get to where we really want to be: a car worthy of the Abarth designation, a car that is head and shoulders above what we have seen offered by Mazda and Fiat so far, a car we can have fun with every time we drive it. And I salute the manufacturers for getting closer to what we really want because without a base to build upon we would have nothing.

So, Thank You to all who are keeping their eyes and ears open to the latest developments and sharing information and helping everyone to understand where things are and where they may be a few months from now so we can make our plans with as much real info as possible.

Amacento
03-27-2016, 03:39 PM
Abarth was absorbed into Fiat SpA and now FCA, so as far as who designed what, it is not like pre-1971 or even into the 1980s. All styling is now done under Fiat Centro Stile and I can imagine now engineers are assigned different projects to work on and they are probably get moved around. Sometimes they'll do a Fiat, next time a Lancia, maybe an Abarth, etc. I'll see if I can get some more info on who did what as I'm hoping to get a drive in one of the cars at some point. But from what I understand the suspension tuning was "done by Abarth", for whatever that means now in a global company.

I can say that when we went out to Auburn Hills to preview the new Fiat Spider, we were specifically told that the suspension tuning and engineering was done by Italians. The lead engineer Enrico Genchi talks about it here. Note the authentic accent.laugh2



http://youtu.be/Bdf6RjcsgNU
While I agree with the lack of feasibility in bringing back the hardcore (and very expensive) ABARTHs, it's worth noting there were also lower cost ABARTH tuning upgrade packages, I still don't accept any claim FIAT USA cannot offer a true A124.

http://www.autoblog.com/2016/03/24/2017-fiat-124-spider-elaborazione-abarth-new-york-2016/

When don Karl "Carlo" Abarth sold his baby to FIAT S.p.A. he stayed on as the head of engineering. That is major. The energy his widow puts into the Carlo Abarth Foundation is inspiring. The fact she's doing this so long after his death is major. She was asked to serve as the Guest of Honor at the ABARTH Classiche (where Auto Italia became sure there would be an A124) this year. So, it's clear FIAT still sees value in heritage. This makes the F124EA even more confusing… and makes me angrier about FIAT USA not getting it.

MrFiat
03-27-2016, 06:13 PM
@Amacento
Just a heads-uo, your PM inbox is full so I sent an email to your creamcity blog. Excellent website by the way !!

Amacento
03-27-2016, 09:01 PM
@Amacento
Just a heads-uo, your PM inbox is full so I sent an email to your creamcity blog. Excellent website by the way !!
Sorry about that, friend. Thanks for the hands-up… 'performed the necessary "cleaning". I'll check your message.

Thanks for the kind words.

Rags747
03-28-2016, 09:41 PM
So after all this what is an Abarth, what is not an Abarth...Will we be seeing an A124 with approx 180-190 hp down the road or are we saying that the current Abarth Line 124 is all there is, if so that would be truly disappointing. Can the current 1.4 be bored out to 1.5 for an additional 25-30hp? Just makes no sense to me that this will be the so called Abarth 124, I say no way this is it.

Amacento
03-28-2016, 10:12 PM
So after all this what is an Abarth, what is not an Abarth...Will we be seeing an A124 with approx 180-190 hp down the road or are we saying that the current Abarth Line 124 is all there is, if so that would be truly disappointing. Can the current 1.4 be bored out to 1.5 for an additional 25-30hp? Just makes no sense to me that this will be the so called Abarth 124, I say no way this is it.
The 1.4 doesn't need to be bored out to make more power. The 695 Biposto proves that.

shagghie
03-29-2016, 12:58 AM
The 1.4 doesn't need to be bored out to make more power. The 695 Biposto proves that.. I'm making 250-265 whp on stock internals with just a lightly modded turbo and bolt-ons, on pump 93 and depending on peak boost between 25 and 28lbs and timing.

It is a matter of will, and a matter of respect to the name's heritage and *singular* purpose. No one ever said an Abarth needs to have:
*good gas mileage
*excellent safety
*low emissions
*great reliability
*lots of features
*comfortable seating position


NONE OF THAT MATTERS, FCA!

You are putting Abarth's name on it, so it must BE an Abarth!

Abarth: small, fast, handling, attitude.

It is the only marque that doesn't have to be a compromise. even modern Porsches are compromised designs. Forgetaboutit. Abarth must remain loyal, or else it risks the only strength it has ever had as a marque.

if FCA want to make a new spider and paint the hood black, that is fine; but please at least do not call it an Abarth of it is not an Abarth. And your integrity must tell you this is not one.

Amacento
03-29-2016, 08:37 AM
. I'm making 250-265 whp on stock internals with just a lightly modded turbo and bolt-ons, on pump 93 and depending on peak boost between 25 and 28lbs and timing.

It is a matter of will, and a matter of respect to the name's heritage and *singular* purpose. No one ever said an Abarth needs to have:
*good gas mileage
*excellent safety
*low emissions
*great reliability
*lots of features
*comfortable seating position


NONE OF THAT MATTERS, FCA!

You are putting Abarth's name on it, so it must BE an Abarth!

Abarth: small, fast, handling, attitude.

It is the only marque that doesn't have to be a compromise. even modern Porsches are compromised designs. Forgetaboutit. Abarth must remain loyal, or else it risks the only strength it has ever had as a marque.

if FCA want to make a new spider and paint the hood black, that is fine; but please at least do not call it an Abarth of it is not an Abarth. And your integrity must tell you this is not one.
I wasn't even gonna go into what the garagistas are doing.

FIAT-ABARTH has proven they can produce a factory safe 1.4L @ 190hp. That would be more than ample for this Spider. To me, they could have done the 160hp if the standard 124 wasn't already there (at 160hp). They dropped the ball there… and chose to cover it up by coming up with this scheme. It was so second thought the badge wasn't ready for the press release photos. Really? ABARTH is not a second thought. For many, the name is the only thought.

MrFiat
03-29-2016, 10:57 AM
. I'm making 250-265 whp on stock internals with just a lightly modded turbo and bolt-ons, on pump 93 and depending on peak boost between 25 and 28lbs and timing.

It is a matter of will, and a matter of respect to the name's heritage and *singular* purpose. No one ever said an Abarth needs to have:
*good gas mileage
*excellent safety
*low emissions
*great reliability
*lots of features
*comfortable seating position


NONE OF THAT MATTERS, FCA!

You are putting Abarth's name on it, so it must BE an Abarth!

Abarth: small, fast, handling, attitude.

It is the only marque that doesn't have to be a compromise. even modern Porsches are compromised designs. Forgetaboutit. Abarth must remain loyal, or else it risks the only strength it has ever had as a marque.

if FCA want to make a new spider and paint the hood black, that is fine; but please at least do not call it an Abarth of it is not an Abarth. And your integrity must tell you this is not one.

HOORAY !! Thank you, Shagghie. Very well said. The idea of putting the Abarth name on a car without considerably more "sting" and "unobtanium" than the base model is not in keeping with the history of the brand.

FCA, you folks did it right with the 500 line -- why not do the same with the 124? Call the model a "Sportivo" and save the Abarth emblem for a car that you know is more worthy of the name.

There is value in heritage. Don't ruin that value chasing short term gains.

Amacento
03-29-2016, 12:30 PM
HOORAY !! Thank you, Shagghie. Very well said. The idea of putting the Abarth name on a car without considerably more "sting" and "unobtanium" than the base model is not in keeping with the history of the brand.

FCA, you folks did it right with the 500 line -- why not do the same with the 124? Call the model a "Sportivo" and save the Abarth emblem for a car that you know is more worthy of the name.

There is value in heritage. Don't ruin that value chasing short term gains.
Along these lines... I thought to myself, while writing a related blog entry, "why didn't they drop the F500T power plant in the F124 and the A500 power plant in the A124?" Then, I wrote it into the entry. HaHa!

There are so many easy solutions here. Neither model is on the market yet... there is time to fix this (proper-like).

Don't come up with sorry excuses to explain why your "creative" team lacks creativity. Demand it of them, because the purists will demand it of you.

Winoman
03-29-2016, 01:07 PM
I'd be curious as to the tranny being used for the 124 Rally. Obviously it fits and can hold the power. Understood it may not be a standard consumer (affordable) item....but it seems as if the issue might be that Fiat doesn't have a proper transmission to handle the greater power/torque....either this or perhaps there is some deal with Mazda for the 124 to not be too much better than the Miata - hopefully not....and hopefully Fiat will surprise us with a real Abarth version of the 124 sometime in the future...here's to hoping they don't ruin the name in the meanwhile...

morrisg
03-29-2016, 02:00 PM
Ok, here's an article that hints at what may have happened to the Abarth 124: http://www.automobilemag.com/news/5-things-know-2017-fiat-124-spider-elaborazione-abarth/

First paragraph alludes to the fact that whatever tune they were considering, it didn't pass USA emissions testing. And with the VW diesel scandal in the headlines, well nobody wants to go there. So the GOOD news is that a reworked tune MIGHT be in development for a real Abarth 124 somewhere down the line.

In the meanwhile, we get most of the look and go fast bits (mechanical LSD!) at the price of an ND Club model…maybe…crossing my fingers on this one. I'm sure hoping the suspension tune is a real handler so I don't have to spend big money on coilovers and sway bars to get what I want.

shagghie
03-29-2016, 02:36 PM
Ok, here's an article that hints at what may have happened to the Abarth 124: http://www.automobilemag.com/news/5-things-know-2017-fiat-124-spider-elaborazione-abarth/

First paragraph alludes to the fact that whatever tune they were considering, it didn't pass USA emissions testing. And with the VW diesel scandal in the headlines, well nobody wants to go there. So the GOOD news is that a reworked tune MIGHT be in development for a real Abarth 124 somewhere down the line.

In the meanwhile, we get most of the look and go fast bits (mechanical LSD!) at the price of an ND Club model…maybe…crossing my fingers on this one. I'm sure hoping the suspension tune is a real handler so I don't have to spend big money on coilovers and sway bars to get what I want.

well that is interesting isn't it. I can say after going from open-diff to a wavtrac, the mechanical LSD makes a CRAZY difference in the car (granted FWD A500, but still). Very happy about that.

Amacento
03-29-2016, 02:49 PM
Ok, here's an article that hints at what may have happened to the Abarth 124: http://www.automobilemag.com/news/5-things-know-2017-fiat-124-spider-elaborazione-abarth/

First paragraph alludes to the fact that whatever tune they were considering, it didn't pass USA emissions testing. And with the VW diesel scandal in the headlines, well nobody wants to go there. So the GOOD news is that a reworked tune MIGHT be in development for a real Abarth 124 somewhere down the line.

In the meanwhile, we get most of the look and go fast bits (mechanical LSD!) at the price of an ND Club model…maybe…crossing my fingers on this one. I'm sure hoping the suspension tune is a real handler so I don't have to spend big money on coilovers and sway bars to get what I want.
Thanks. This article is what inspired me to post this:

Along these lines... I thought to myself, while writing a related blog entry, "why didn't they drop the F500T power plant in the F124 and the A500 power plant in the A124?" Then, I wrote it into the entry. HaHa!

There are so many easy solutions here. Neither model is on the market yet... there is time to fix this (proper-like).

Don't come up with sorry excuses to explain why your "creative" team lacks creativity. Demand it of them, because the purists will demand it of you.

It's such an easy solution I doubt the "official" word even more.

Rags747
03-29-2016, 08:07 PM
The 1.4 doesn't need to be bored out to make more power. The 695 Biposto proves that.

Agreed, not sure what I was thinking here. I still find it hard to believe or accept that there will not be a true Abarth 124. I still think we see one by spring of 2017. At this point I see no real benefit to buying the Abarth Line Spider over the Fiat Spider. I'll keep the 500 Abarth and continue to watch the progress of the 124 with an eager eye always on the 4C.

Winoman
03-30-2016, 01:07 AM
well that is interesting isn't it. I can say after going from open-diff to a wavtrac, the mechanical LSD makes a CRAZY difference in the car (granted FWD A500, but still). Very happy about that.

Agreed...I have a Wavtrac on my GTI and I see it as a must have....of course I'm at 420 hp & 400 lb ft torque.....so even then I can spin through my first 4 gears when I'm on the gas if I'm not careful how I shift. It still makes a huge difference - particularly when pulling through fast corners....couldn't imagine driving the car without it...

Amacento
03-30-2016, 07:48 AM
Hello all!

A new CC5C blog entry went live this morning… it is topical to this thread. Check it out: http://creamcitycinquecentoclub.blogspot.com/2016/03/heralds-of-heritage.html

shagghie
03-30-2016, 09:08 AM
The irony of mixed messaging from FCA when we see the right social media message but the wrong strategy for US:
https://instagram.com/p/BDkdh9tMDcA/

MrFiat
03-30-2016, 10:39 AM
Hello all!

A new CC5C blog entry went live this morning… it is topical to this thread. Check it out: http://creamcitycinquecentoclub.blogspot.com/2016/03/heralds-of-heritage.html

Excellent blog post !!! Excellent !!! Excellent !!! Excellent !!! beerchug

rnddude
03-30-2016, 10:57 AM
. I'm making 250-265 whp on stock internals with just a lightly modded turbo and bolt-ons, on pump 93 and depending on peak boost between 25 and 28lbs and timing.

It is a matter of will, and a matter of respect to the name's heritage and *singular* purpose. No one ever said an Abarth needs to have:
*good gas mileage
*excellent safety
*low emissions
*great reliability
*lots of features
*comfortable seating position


NONE OF THAT MATTERS, FCA!

You are putting Abarth's name on it, so it must BE an Abarth!

Abarth: small, fast, handling, attitude.

It is the only marque that doesn't have to be a compromise. even modern Porsches are compromised designs. Forgetaboutit. Abarth must remain loyal, or else it risks the only strength it has ever had as a marque.

if FCA want to make a new spider and paint the hood black, that is fine; but please at least do not call it an Abarth of it is not an Abarth. And your integrity must tell you this is not one.

I concur, love the car, but not the Abarth badge. Someone should start a new thread with "Hey FCA, wake up about this faux Abarth 124!" Maybe it will get them thinking....

Amacento
03-30-2016, 11:03 AM
Excellent blog post !!! Excellent !!! Excellent !!! Excellent !!! beerchug
Thank you for the feedback. With any luck at all, we can build on this situation and further fortify the community.

ophidia31
03-30-2016, 11:14 AM
That was a good read from the blogpost.

This is a snippet of whta I pretty much just posted over on the miata forum and my true feelings about the EA:

"Its not the rest of the car, its the power theyre giving us and trying to pass it off with an abarth name sake on the side. Personally, thats not going to stop me from buying one if the price is right as its everything I wanted to be added to the normal 124. Just going to take any abarth lettering or scorpion badges off the exterior since I dont see it as a true abarth and just a "club" 124 and doesnt deserve the abarth name or badges on it. May even go as far as buying miata/124 replacement parts for the interior if there is abarth stuff in there like the euro abarth."

MrFiat
03-30-2016, 11:26 AM
The irony of mixed messaging from FCA when we see the right social media message but the wrong strategy for US:
https://instagram.com/p/BDkdh9tMDcA/

I have had some first hand experience with this, Shagghie. When Fiat first came back to the US in 2011 and announced the Fiat 500, it was a dream come true for me. The heritage was touted at first and the "keepers of the faith" were rewarded with the first 100 Primas but that's as far as it went.

Time and again I wrote to Fiat USA corporate, offering my Abarth and several others in our vintage Abarth group to use as advertising to promote the heritage of the new cars they were about to introduce. Every offer fell on deaf ears. The most positive reply (of the very few I received) said thanks but no interest. If they ever wanted to do something like that they would use cars at the Fiat museum in Italy. Very clear message -- We didn't matter -- History didn't matter.

When I consulted a friend with ties to the Fiat USA organization, it was explained to me that the company was staffed with younger folks who neither knew the brand's history nor had any appreciation for the marketing value that the heritage and vast accomplishments of the Fiat and Abarth organizations had to offer. We were in trouble from the get-go.

I see some small changes occuring but too little and too slowly. Amacento is quite correct. It's up to the people who DO understand and appreciate the heritage to educate and be the lobby for change before it's too late to make a difference. Like it or not -- that's us.

Amacento
03-30-2016, 12:05 PM
When I consulted a friend with ties to the Fiat USA organization, it was explained to me that the company was staffed with younger folks who neither knew the brand's history nor had any appreciation for the marketing value that the heritage and vast accomplishments of the Fiat and Abarth organizations had to offer. We were in trouble from the get-go.

I see some small changes occuring but too little and too slowly. Amacento is quite correct. It's up to the people who DO understand and appreciate the heritage to educate and be the lobby for change before it's too late to make a difference. Like it or not -- that's us.
Thanks, ophidia31 and MrFiat.

This is THE correct strategy for the North America AND ties into what FCA already does for Dodge [Brothers ads] and Jeep. They do "get" it... they're simply uninterested in putting in the work to do it for the parent brand.

The fact FCA Corporate stripped the entire internet of their official press release clips ought to send a LOUD & CLEAR message to enthusiasts... You Matter. I can tell you the FCA Corporate page was alight with unfriendly posts the moment the F124EA stuff was added. The posts were off the page in a matter of 1-2 hours. You Matter. I'm done hearing and/or reading USAmericans claiming any less than... You Matter. Let's do some edu-taining.

MrFiat
03-30-2016, 02:23 PM
Thanks, ophidia31 and MrFiat.

This is THE correct strategy for the North America AND ties into what FCA already does for Dodge [Brothers ads] and Jeep. They do "get" it... they're simply uninterested in putting in the work to do it for the parent brand.

The fact FCA Corporate stripped the entire internet of their official press release clips ought to send a LOUD & CLEAR message to enthusiasts... You Matter. I can tell you the FCA Corporate page was alight with unfriendly posts the moment the F124EA stuff was added. The posts were off the page in a matter of 1-2 hours. You Matter. I'm done hearing and/or reading USAmericans claiming any less than... You Matter. Let's do some edu-taining.

You're right, of course we do matter. We're the customers, the bread and butter of the company. The point I was trying to make is that one voice is easy to ignore, (and it was) but many voices saying the same thing is not so easy to overlook.

Jtpc2007
03-30-2016, 02:42 PM
I'm not offended by the small abarth badge on the side of the car. I'm offended more by the large FIAT red badges all over the rest of the car. Sounds dumb, but I'm more attracted to the euro abarth 124 than i am our US version.
So yeah, even though I know its a better overall car than an Abarth 500, the 124 spider elaborazione isn't a sure thing on my buying list over an abarth-badged 500. I just like the character and personality.
I know its just silly badges that make the difference, but its still a disappointment about the elaborazione being a half-abarth/half-fiat to me after thinking we'd have the exact same car as Europe.

MrFiat
03-30-2016, 02:54 PM
Here's a thought.

Why not simply put the already existing Abarth 695 Biposto engine into the A-124? There's your 190 horsepower. There's your "sting" It's available and the same size as the A-500. It's a drop in.

More cost? -- so what? There's your your exclusivity. There's your "unobtanium".

Badge the car as an Abarth, not Elaborazione, and that should solve everyone's concerns.

Perhaps it may take a bit of work to meet emissons specs, maybe not, but that's been done before and it's a small price to pay for creating a real winner. Hell, If I could scrape up the $$$ I'd buy one of those!

rnddude
03-30-2016, 02:58 PM
There are two things that I would deem relevant in earning an "Abarth" designation...More speed (horsepower) and faster thru the twisties (suspension upgrades). The current "124 Abarth" has the second but not the first. That makes it a "club" model, certainly worthwhile, and even worth paying a bit more for, but certainly not in the spirit of a true Abarth. It muddies the waters about if and when a "true" Abarth model will appear, if ever. I had been anxiously awaiting a true 124 Abarth to replace my Pontiac Solstice GXP (which has 265HP BTW), but I am very disappointed in what they are offering as an Abarth.

shagghie
03-30-2016, 03:05 PM
anyone 'disagree' with everything that's been said here? abarthisti are very loud like our cars...but are there those reading this thread that feel differently and have a different perspective? I am sensing a pretty 'unanimous' sentiment overall, in varying degrees of intensity, but unanimous overall regardless. Would be curious to hear some different opinions out there if they exist.

rnddude
03-30-2016, 03:19 PM
Anyone remember the "Cimmaron"? a badge does not a Cadillac make....

Amacento
03-30-2016, 03:42 PM
You're right, of course we do matter. We're the customers, the bread and butter of the company. The point I was trying to make is that one voice is easy to ignore, (and it was) but many voices saying the same thing is not so easy to overlook.
I gotcha, friend. I just did a lousy job of letting you know. I was expounding on your post.

Amacento
03-30-2016, 03:43 PM
Anyone remember the "Cimmaron"? a badge does not a Cadillac make....
'Possibly the best one line argument against the F124EA on the entire thread.

smark
03-30-2016, 08:10 PM
The Cadillac Cimmaron, was nothing but a upscale Chevy Cavalier. Wire wheels, leather interior, sunroof, digital dashboard. The Cadillac grill, and hood ornament.

No different then a 500 Pop, Easy, Lounge. From 50 feet away, can't tell the difference. Same 101 hp power plant.

A 1969 Camaro, the same. From the side view. Is it a RS, SS, or Z28. What engine stuff under the hood. A straight 6 307, 327, 350, 396.

The average consumer here, doesn't even know what the Abarth brand is. Karl would turn over in his grave, if he knew his name was on a Japanese made car. The current Miata is a world class roadster. The Fiata, will have the Abarth engine, one up the Miata. Fiat can charge $38K for cosmetic decorations

Rags747
03-30-2016, 08:18 PM
anyone 'disagree' with everything that's been said here? abarthisti are very loud like our cars...but are there those reading this thread that feel differently and have a different perspective? I am sensing a pretty 'unanimous' sentiment overall, in varying degrees of intensity, but unanimous overall regardless. Would be curious to hear some different opinions out there if they exist.
Yeah my different opinion or more like a question is this, Has fiat confirmed that we will not be getting an official Abarth 124 or are we just all disappointed with the current Fiat version? I still believe that we will see an Abarth 124 scorpion badged by spring of 2017. Am I missing something?

Amacento
03-30-2016, 09:02 PM
… No different then a 500 Pop, Easy, Lounge. From 50 feet away, can't tell the difference. Same 101 hp power plant.

The average consumer here, doesn't even know what the Abarth brand is. Karl would turn over in his grave, if he knew his name was on a Japanese made car...
First line must be a trick… Pop? A 500. Lounge? A 500. Easy? A 500? No… it's an Elle. Poor example.

ABARTH isn't about the average consumer… that is the point of not watering it down.

I tend to disagree with this statement… as don Carlo was multinational. The models he introduced were multinational as well. He did engines, transmissions, suspensions and the like. All those are done by ABARTH & Co. for the modern A124.

I know you're not a fan of ABARTHs and think they are over-priced. But they're relatively inexpensive compared to what they ran enthusiasts while El Maestro was living.

Amacento
03-30-2016, 09:40 PM
Yeah my different opinion or more like a question is this, Has fiat confirmed that we will not be getting an official Abarth 124 or are we just all disappointed with the current Fiat version? I still believe that we will see an Abarth 124 scorpion badged by spring of 2017. Am I missing something?
'No confirmation that I'm aware. Of course, FIAT USA has yet to even hint there is an intent to deliver a full-fledged A124. I am holding out hope there will be one… and it could be born of this F124EA. Of course, hope is not a strategy.

A member of our local club reached out to FCA and included a link to the blog. He received an answer… basically thanking him and making the official statement they could not accept unsolicited suggestions. Glass half-empty? The actually replied in less than 10 hours.

morrisg
03-30-2016, 11:52 PM
Ok, let me take a shot at my unhappiness with the Fiat EA trashing, err, non-Abarthness. If I bought a Fiat EA with the stiffer suspension, mechanical LSD, flat black paint scheme and EA badges and then went to the aftermarket and had a tune installed that ripped out 200hp and 220+ lb-ft of torque across the board, would THAT be Abarth enough for the Abarthisti or would a full set of badges be required as well????

Yes, I'm being a troll but my point is that you are all being a bit harsh on the development team. They didn't know the Euro Abarth tune was going to fail USA emissions testing. It was a surprise to them as well. Rather than dropping the model completely until they can recover, they did a halfway strategy so they could offer an improved performance model at initial release. Cool, I applaud that as those are features that I want available right away.

So is all the sturm und drang (German thunder and lightning, or as my grandpa once said "A storm in a glass of water") on these boards then merely about the use of the words "Elaborazione Abarth" in the model name rather than "Sportivo" or some other non-Abarth word???? Cmon, I get the desire to restrict the Abarth name to only the highest performance models, but a bit less histrionics, nay even a calm demeanor could be used to convey that thought. Or maybe I'm the odd one out and just don't understand argument on an Italian car forum! :wavey: Ok, gimme a few more months while I get the hang of this. Thanks!

Fiat500USA
03-31-2016, 12:02 AM
Abarth was a shrewd business man and if he could work a deal where he could tune a car and it would make sense to attach his name to it, I wouldn't be surprised if he would attach his name to it. Back in the 70s and 80s Mazda was the most Italian like Japanese car company, and the longtime Fiat owners will remember Al Cosentino of FAZA fame associated himself with the company and Mazda had a lot of respect for the marque.

Amacento
03-31-2016, 06:20 AM
Ok, let me take a shot at my unhappiness with the Fiat EA trashing, err, non-Abarthness. If I bought a Fiat EA with the stiffer suspension, mechanical LSD, flat black paint scheme and EA badges and then went to the aftermarket and had a tune installed that ripped out 200hp and 220+ lb-ft of torque across the board, would THAT be Abarth enough for the Abarthisti or would a full set of badges be required as well????

Yes, I'm being a troll but my point is that you are all being a bit harsh on the development team. They didn't know the Euro Abarth tune was going to fail USA emissions testing. It was a surprise to them as well. Rather than dropping the model completely until they can recover, they did a halfway strategy so they could offer an improved performance model at initial release. Cool, I applaud that as those are features that I want available right away.

So is all the sturm und drang (German thunder and lightning, or as my grandpa once said "A storm in a glass of water") on these boards then merely about the use of the words "Elaborazione Abarth" in the model name rather than "Sportivo" or some other non-Abarth word???? Cmon, I get the desire to restrict the Abarth name to only the highest performance models, but a bit less histrionics, nay even a calm demeanor could be used to convey that thought. Or maybe I'm the odd one out and just don't understand argument on an Italian car forum! :wavey: Ok, gimme a few more months while I get the hang of this. Thanks!
Hmm… It's not going to be a stretch to assume you didn't bother reading my blog. I actually refer to the F124EA as beautiful. FIAT chose that nameplate, I didn't. Why didn't they simply label it an ABARTH? Keeping that in mind, why are you blaming us for reaffirming what FIAT USA has already done? I referred to the model as "otherwise beautiful"… it's just not an ABARTH (again, a fact already established by the automaker).

Harsh on the development team? There was no need to offer a simultaneous ABARTH version of the F124. They already have the Classico, Lusso and Prima versions at launch. They could have detuned the EPA-friendly 160hp MultiAir in the F124 (Hello, 500T) and reserved the fully tuned A500 motor for an A124. Problem solved… easy. Why didn't they? Is it haterism to characterize a lack of creativity as, well, a lack of creativity? Instead, they are charging a premium for brake and seat upgrades… I find bundle packages at this point [for a car the company is already conceding is not an ABARTH] unnecessary gouging. But, yessir, you are free to applaud them.

Again, you obviously didn't read the blog entry I poured days into the writing. I poured the time it deserves into the piece… for the fans of these cars. I actually read over my entries [one more time] the morning after and tweak lines I think can still read better. My blog is free… they're charging a premium for the F124EA.

Make sense?

Amacento
03-31-2016, 06:31 AM
Abarth was a shrewd business man and if he could work a deal where he could tune a car and it would make sense to attach his name to it, I wouldn't be surprised if he would attach his name to it. Back in the 70s and 80s Mazda was the most Italian like Japanese car company, and the longtime Fiat owners will remember Al Cosentino of FAZA fame associated himself with the company and Mazda had a lot of respect for the marque.
Hear-hear!

I concur. Sr. Abarth worked with German-Austrian (Porsche), French (Simca) and Italian (Alfa Romeo, Autobianchi, Cisitalia, Ferrari, FIAT, Lancia, etc.) automakers. There is no reason to think he would not approve ABARTH tuning [including bodywork] on a Japanese chassis. I'll chalk up smark's comment to lack of familiarity with the King. No harm, no foul.

Mazda would not likely exist today if not for Giorgetto Giugiaro. He designed the Mazda Familia. MOST (if not all) modern Mazdas can draw their lineage back to that model. The FAZA connection is also important.

All well stated, sir.

MrFiat
03-31-2016, 02:09 PM
Ok, let me take a shot at my unhappiness with the Fiat EA trashing, err, non-Abarthness. If I bought a Fiat EA with the stiffer suspension, mechanical LSD, flat black paint scheme and EA badges and then went to the aftermarket and had a tune installed that ripped out 200hp and 220+ lb-ft of torque across the board, would THAT be Abarth enough for the Abarthisti or would a full set of badges be required as well????

Yes, I'm being a troll but my point is that you are all being a bit harsh on the development team. They didn't know the Euro Abarth tune was going to fail USA emissions testing. It was a surprise to them as well. Rather than dropping the model completely until they can recover, they did a halfway strategy so they could offer an improved performance model at initial release. Cool, I applaud that as those are features that I want available right away.

So is all the sturm und drang (German thunder and lightning, or as my grandpa once said "A storm in a glass of water") on these boards then merely about the use of the words "Elaborazione Abarth" in the model name rather than "Sportivo" or some other non-Abarth word???? Cmon, I get the desire to restrict the Abarth name to only the highest performance models, but a bit less histrionics, nay even a calm demeanor could be used to convey that thought. Or maybe I'm the odd one out and just don't understand argument on an Italian car forum! :wavey: Ok, gimme a few more months while I get the hang of this. Thanks!

Since I'm about as guilty as anyone here (perhaps more) in being vocal about the approach FCA is taking with the F124EA, I would like to offer a different perspective as to why that is so.

First, the calm and supportive approach hasn't worked with FCA up to now. I've tried on numerous occasions since the introduction of the 500 in 2011 to get their attention on other matters. Check my previous posts. It all fell on deaf ears. But why is this of any importance? There are a couple of reasons. Aside from being a big fan of the Fiat and Abarth & Co. for many years, there is also a purely selfish financial reason.

As a result of the success of the A-500, the Abarth name gained a general measure of notariety here in the US. With that name recognition came an increased demand for the vintage vehicles bearing the Abarth name. The auction value of the vintage Abarth machines more than doubled in that 4 year period. Now many are easily into the six figure bracket. A big concern is that IF the F124EA is introduced in its present form, it will diminish the image of the brand and in turn lower the value of the vintage machines. There's more of us affected than you might realize.

The F124EA is an obvious mistake, So, vocal, yes. Calm hasn't worked in the past. I'm trying to protect a valuable investment. Given similar circumstances, wouldn't you do the same?

MrFiat
03-31-2016, 05:40 PM
And sometimes it's simply better to :chairshot than to :banghead:

MJAB
03-31-2016, 08:04 PM
The reason why it is named Fiat 124 Elaborazione Abarth, in my opinion, is more due to certification costs than other "technical" reason.

Some notes:
1) european Fiat 124 version maximum output is rated 140 CV =138 HP. Why it is not used that tuning for U.S.A. version?
2) european Abarth 124 maximum output power is 170 CV, that are 167,67 HP, so the difference is not 10 HP vs european Abarth 124. To add that in Europe the "standard" base gasoline has higher octane number and uniformity of gasoline is higher than in U.S.A. (also is ultra low sulphur gasoline) so that it is easier to tune itto comply with emissions rules without having to lower power.
3) as "Elaborazione Abarth" and using same engine tuned same way as standard version they need to certify only one vehicle.

So my conclusion is that U.S.A. Fiat 124 is already half Abarth and the european Fiat 124 is the "standard" base Fiat 124.
So the Fiat 124 U.S.A. is an Abarth 124 "esse" (Sport) and the "Elaborazione Abarth" is the "esseesse" (Super Sport) version.

Amacento
03-31-2016, 08:17 PM
Interesting theory, but no.

Fiat500USA
04-01-2016, 12:28 AM
Healthy discussions by passionate enthusiasts of the brand. Sounds good to me, and what could be better? Of course, we want to be considerate and respectful so everyone can feel free to share their opinion because this is an interesting and important topic. Your opinion counts! And you never know who is reading this.

MrFiat
04-01-2016, 10:28 AM
The reason why it is named Fiat 124 Elaborazione Abarth, in my opinion, is more due to certification costs than other "technical" reason.

Some notes:
1) european Fiat 124 version maximum output is rated 140 CV =138 HP. Why it is not used that tuning for U.S.A. version?
2) european Abarth 124 maximum output power is 170 CV, that are 167,67 HP, so the difference is not 10 HP vs european Abarth 124. To add that in Europe the "standard" base gasoline has higher octane number and uniformity of gasoline is higher than in U.S.A. (also is ultra low sulphur gasoline) so that it is easier to tune itto comply with emissions rules without having to lower power.
3) as "Elaborazione Abarth" and using same engine tuned same way as standard version they need to certify only one vehicle.

So my conclusion is that U.S.A. Fiat 124 is already half Abarth and the european Fiat 124 is the "standard" base Fiat 124.
So the Fiat 124 U.S.A. is an Abarth 124 "esse" (Sport) and the "Elaborazione Abarth" is the "esseesse" (Super Sport) version.

Yes, but isn't it also true that the American car buyer will only be comparing the 124EA to the other 3 versions of the F124? We can't buy European cars. Apples to apples ? Compared to the NA F124 the EA simply doesn't offer the North American car buyer the Abarth experience.

Winoman
04-01-2016, 11:00 AM
I don't know either Fiat or Abarth nearly as much as most of you here do. Still - I feel your pain and think I understand why most of you are (rightly) upset at the offering of the 124EA - as an Abarth - and in place of a "true" Abarth (at this time). Even with how little I understand Abarth - its clear to me that Fiat is playing with fire here in potentially diluting the brand name....and personally (for me) its not the car I was hoping for....

All that being said - I'm at least excited about this forum and its enthusiast. I've learned a lot already and have a greater appreciation for Fiat and Abarth than I had before....and I'm still excited about this car. In general its a great move IMO - to re-introduce the 124....and there is still the promise (I think) of a more rip roaring Abarth version to come....what's not to like....

MrFiat
04-01-2016, 11:43 AM
I don't know either Fiat or Abarth nearly as much as most of you here do. Still - I feel your pain and think I understand why most of you are (rightly) upset at the offering of the 124EA - as an Abarth - and in place of a "true" Abarth (at this time). Even with how little I understand Abarth - its clear to me that Fiat is playing with fire here in potentially diluting the brand name....and personally (for me) its not the car I was hoping for....

All that being said - I'm at least excited about this forum and its enthusiast. I've learned a lot already and have a greater appreciation for Fiat and Abarth than I had before....and I'm still excited about this car. In general its a great move IMO - to re-introduce the 124....and there is still the promise (I think) of a more rip roaring Abarth version to come....what's not to like....

Thank you, sir ! Well said. It is my suspicion that you are an excellent representative sample of all the prospective N.A. 124 buyers out there. Having followed this brand closely for well over 50 years, it's not too difficult to tell the real deal from the "wannabe's" All we are trying to do here is plead with Fiat to give us the "real deal". Much better to keep the 3 excellent F-124 models and drop the EA model altogether rather than offer us a "wannabe".

Amacento
04-01-2016, 11:56 AM
'Many outstanding POVs and ideas shared throughout the 16 pages of this thread. It's always nice to see/read/hear people of differing experiences and opinions express themselves respectfully.

Now, it's up to FIAT USA to... I guess... follow through with the best decision for all interested parties. I want to pair my A500, a proper ABARTH, with an equally proper A124. C'mon, let's have it!

rustbucket
04-01-2016, 03:33 PM
Just a WAG on my part but I suspect the big reason we don't see a more powerful engine in the U.S, spec A124 is cost. The cost of certifying engine/tranny combinations is extremely expensive and the cost of certifying another engine/transmission combo in what is already a niche automobile may have led FCA to nix the idea for the moment at least. Cars like the Viper and Shelby GT350/GT350R can better justify their low volume powerplant/transmission combos because of their much higher price points- they can afford to do so where at its relatively modest price point the 124 probably can't. It's the big reason for the demise of manual transmissions. Ford once offered a manual in the SuperDuty trucks but the "take rate" was only in the single digits and when the SD's were redesigned, Ford declined to offer a manual, feeling that it would not be profitable.

MrFiat
04-01-2016, 04:25 PM
Just a WAG on my part but I suspect the big reason we don't see a more powerful engine in the U.S, spec A124 is cost. The cost of certifying engine/tranny combinations is extremely expensive and the cost of certifying another engine/transmission combo in what is already a niche automobile may have led FCA to nix the idea for the moment at least. Cars like the Viper and Shelby GT350/GT350R can better justify their low volume powerplant/transmission combos because of their much higher price points- they can afford to do so where at its relatively modest price point the 124 probably can't. It's the big reason for the demise of manual transmissions. Ford once offered a manual in the SuperDuty trucks but the "take rate" was only in the single digits and when the SD's were redesigned, Ford declined to offer a manual, feeling that it would not be profitable.

I strongly suspect that you're right about that. But the Abarth was always priced well above the base models. It was part of their aura of exclusivity. It was always a part of the Abarth "unobtanium" mistique. I submit -- the price of the Abarth SHOULD be much higher than any of the F124's. BUT it should have the muscle to warrent the name and the price increase. Fiat should either suck it up and take the development price hit or just name the EA something else until they can afford to build a car worthy of the Abarth name.

rustbucket
04-01-2016, 05:13 PM
BUT it should have the muscle to warrent the name and the price increase. Fiat should either suck it up and take the development price hit or just name the EA something else until they can afford to build a car worthy of the Abarth name.

I agree. Having just replaced DW's vehicle a few months before I didn't even look at Abarths when I bought my '13 Sport thanks to a tight budget. Finally got around to test driving an Abarth later on and my reaction was WOW! Power, handling, the sound ... it's a whole different animal and one imho, well worth the extra $ it costs. I don't think a prospective A124 owner will have that same kind of reaction and he/she should given the Abarth name. FIAT will not be well served by diluting the Abarth name.

Bruce Winter
04-01-2016, 06:09 PM
Credible or not?

From jolly

Well It's official, the Ebarth is not the official full on 124 Abarth. In a press release translated from Italy today we have learned their actual plans. Here is the translation below:

At a press conference today in Turin Fiat executive Roberto Bertanelli revealed that the both the The European market 124 Abarth and the US market Evoluzione Abarth are intermediate models placed below the top of the line Abarth Competizione model.

The big surprise is that the 124 Abarth Competizione will feature the 2.9 liter twin turbo V6 from the Alfa Romeo Giulia detuned to 485 horsepower. "It's a natural fit" says chief project engineer Ernesto Gubanaro. The 2.9 weights only 45 pounds more than the iron block 1.4 due to it's superior architecture and it's shorter which allows it to sit farther back in the chassis." He goes on to mention that the package includes a heavy duty transmission and differential from an undisclosed source. We think it's likely these are also modified Giulia units. Mr Gubanaro explains that it's detuned to 485 horsepower to keep it below the iconic 500hp mark which will be reserved for Alfa Romeos, although he says there will be a competition spec version for off road use and we were told by more than one executive that they have already boosted it up to over 700 horsepower in track only testing.

Pricing will start at just over 55,000 euros and about 50,000 usd in North America. Only 500 units will be built per year and Fiat will start taking pre-orders today.

Bruce Winter
04-01-2016, 07:00 PM
Ahm, I wrote that. It's an April fool's post. HOWEVER, it's still a **** good idea! Thanks for checking the Jolly page though! I promise some updates in the next 7 days that WILL be meaningful to prospective owners of these cars.

Greg
Like

Rags747
04-01-2016, 07:25 PM
I strongly suspect that you're right about that. But the Abarth was always priced well above the base models. It was part of their aura of exclusivity. It was always a part of the Abarth "unobtanium" mistique. I submit -- the price of the Abarth SHOULD be much higher than any of the F124's. BUT it should have the muscle to warrent the name and the price increase. Fiat should either suck it up and take the development price hit or just name the EA something else until they can afford to build a car worthy of the Abarth name.

So well above a Fiat Abarth, I would think $40k is about the number one should expect for a full on Abarth 124 with 185-190hp, sound about right?

ophidia31
04-01-2016, 09:46 PM
Well if its anything like 500 pricing, the 500 Pop starts at $16.8k; the Abarth at $22.5k. I would expect no more than $35k for a true A124 and the EA124 no more than $30k. Reason for those pricing is the 500T is $19.7k, which I would put as the EA124. So the EA124 and the 124 Lusso should be very similar in pricing as they target different shoppers for the 124 with the Lusso possibly being higher due to convenience features. The Lusso for the more GT shopper and the EA for the track car shopper. So, my final pricing predictions are as follows: Classica ~$25k, EA ~$29k, Lusso ~$31k, Abarth ~$34k.

Amacento
04-02-2016, 12:45 AM
Guys/gals, while I appreciate the ideas explaining engineering costs involved with working out new power train/transmission combinations, I feel obliged to point out the Dodge Dart, Chrysler 200, Jeep Renegade and FIAT 500X have more powerful ABARTH-Alfa based economy options. The front end of the 124 has ample room to fit several MultiAir variations. Creative thinking, FIAT USA… please.

MrFiat
04-02-2016, 08:51 AM
Ahm, I wrote that. It's an April fool's post. HOWEVER, it's still a **** good idea! Thanks for checking the Jolly page though! I promise some updates in the next 7 days that WILL be meaningful to prospective owners of these cars.

Greg
Like
You got one of us at least, Bruce . This old goat bought into it hook, line, and stinker. :stupid: Wishful thinking, I suppose. Would have been a helluva car, though. :beerchug

Winoman
04-02-2016, 10:59 AM
Credible or not?

From jolly

Well It's official, the Ebarth is not the official full on 124 Abarth. In a press release translated from Italy today we have learned their actual plans. Here is the translation below:

At a press conference today in Turin Fiat executive Roberto Bertanelli revealed that the both the The European market 124 Abarth and the US market Evoluzione Abarth are intermediate models placed below the top of the line Abarth Competizione model.

The big surprise is that the 124 Abarth Competizione will feature the 2.9 liter twin turbo V6 from the Alfa Romeo Giulia detuned to 485 horsepower. "It's a natural fit" says chief project engineer Ernesto Gubanaro. The 2.9 weights only 45 pounds more than the iron block 1.4 due to it's superior architecture and it's shorter which allows it to sit farther back in the chassis." He goes on to mention that the package includes a heavy duty transmission and differential from an undisclosed source. We think it's likely these are also modified Giulia units. Mr Gubanaro explains that it's detuned to 485 horsepower to keep it below the iconic 500hp mark which will be reserved for Alfa Romeos, although he says there will be a competition spec version for off road use and we were told by more than one executive that they have already boosted it up to over 700 horsepower in track only testing.

Pricing will start at just over 55,000 euros and about 50,000 usd in North America. Only 500 units will be built per year and Fiat will start taking pre-orders today.

LOL - I think I would buy this car - no question.....and maybe put wings on it...

Winoman
04-02-2016, 11:05 AM
Guys/gals, while I appreciate the ideas explaining engineering costs involved with working out new power train/transmission combinations, I feel obliged to point out the Dodge Dart, Chrysler 200, Jeep Renegade and FIAT 500X have more powerful ABARTH-Alfa based economy options. The front end of the 124 has ample room to fit several MultiAir variations. Creative thinking, FIAT USA… please.

I have to say I am mostly unfamiliar with what engines are available in the Alpha/Fiat stable that would work for this car. Please enlighten us a bit if you could....suggest some options - I'd really like to hear what might be possible.

And while I'm hoping for a sub $40K 124 Abarth....I easily would consider something in the low $40s that would perform at Porsche Boxster/Boxster S levels. Ultimately I'm shooting for something that - perhaps slightly modified - would really surprise some Porsche owners...and others as well. Mostly though I want it to be (quite) fast, nimble and gobs of fun. Seems doable to me.

MrFiat
04-02-2016, 01:01 PM
The big surprise is that the 124 Abarth Competizione will feature the 2.9 liter twin turbo V6 from the Alfa Romeo Giulia detuned to 485 horsepower. The package includes a heavy duty transmission and differential.

Pricing will start at just over 55,000 euros and about 50,000 usd in North America. Only 500 units will be built per year and Fiat will start taking pre-orders today.

If they were to actually do this, I can all but guarantee that at $50K all 500 cars would be sold before the first unit hit the end of the production line.

Amacento
04-02-2016, 09:18 PM
I have to say I am mostly unfamiliar with what engines are available in the Alpha/Fiat stable that would work for this car. Please enlighten us a bit if you could....suggest some options - I'd really like to hear what might be possible.

And while I'm hoping for a sub $40K 124 Abarth....I easily would consider something in the low $40s that would perform at Porsche Boxster/Boxster S levels. Ultimately I'm shooting for something that - perhaps slightly modified - would really surprise some Porsche owners...and others as well. Mostly though I want it to be (quite) fast, nimble and gobs of fun. Seems doable to me.
The Dodge Dart & Chrysler 200 have 2.4L "Tigershark" options. That engine is based on the same tech as the 1.4L. I'd need to comb through the various options, I feel these should have been considered.

shagghie
04-03-2016, 12:29 AM
If they were to actually do this, I can all but guarantee that at $50K all 500 cars would be sold before the first unit hit the end of the production line.

Agree! Oh the irony!

MrFiat
04-03-2016, 10:56 AM
Agree! Oh the irony!

Irony it is, Shagghie! I'm still trying to wrap my head around FCA's reasoning behind the 124EA fiasco. It seems so counter productive to me.

OK, so volume and profit are key issues in today's automobile market. I get that. But, the F124 in its 3 trim levels already should provide the volume/profit required. Now, enter the EA into the picture. Same car -- higher price. How many of these Wannabe's do they think they can sell? Insinuating that it is an Abarth doesn't make it one. The people that would consider buyng it would do so because they recognize the value of the Abarth name. It's all about image. These folks already know and understand what an Abarth should be and as the current outrage suggests, they aleady know that this car simply isn't it.

Then some will say that a full blown street Abarth is not profitable to make because of this, that, and the other thing. Yes, producing it would be expensive. But could it be profitable? Damn straight it could be - if done right. Just look at the A-124 Rally. Everyone knows it's a real No-Bull**** Abarth. It has a price tag starting at $150,000 dollars. Yep, that's One Hundred and Fifty Thousand Dollars. Production hasn't even started yet and already Abarthisti are lining up to buy one. Why? Because it's the real deal and it's not even a street car. If the Racers want it, the Street Racers sure would.

Here's the problem: someone with a bit of authority decided to capitalize on Abarth's image for the sole purpose of selling a few more F124's. Nothing more. A Sleazy marketing tactic and a foolish one at that. That's where the "watering down" complaints are coming from.

If FCA did as Bruce Winter so tantalizingly dreamed up, (Thank you, Bruce) and built the true street Abarth and put a price tag on it that would turn a profit, enthusiasts would flock to buy it. In today's economy, cars in the $50K - $100K range are not at all uncommon. Just look at all the 911's you see on the road. FCA would sell a lot more of these real Abarth's than they would the Wannabe EA and in the end could make more profit doing so. And all this, while bolstering the Fiat/Abarth image instead of dumbing it down.

In marketing, image is EVERYTHING. Companies spend HUGE $$$ maintaining "image" and they do so for a very good reason.

Image Sells !!

I simply don't get it. Someone did such a great job marketing the 500 and the A-500. What went wrong? The real irony is that the people who are supposed to be elevating the Abarth image here in North America are the very ones who are doing the most to harm it.

I just don't get it. The whole idea is simply absurd.

:soapbox:

Amacento
04-03-2016, 01:03 PM
Okay… so the Dodge Dart versions of the MultiAir are:
2.0L, 160hp "Tigershark"… so weird the Mopar people have such a hard time just calling it a MultiAir.
1.4L, 160hp MultiAir… A500 donor power plant.
2.4L, 184hp "Tigershark"… also a MultiAir.

These are all EPA-friendly. I cannot justify the lack of a 170-190hp A124. It is 100% doable. The A500 is a true ABARTH… the A124 should be as well. ABARTH & Co. is the FIAT Halo brand. Respect, please.

Winoman
04-03-2016, 02:18 PM
Thanks Amacento. I actually took some time and read about the 2.4L "Tigershark" (MultiAir2) - as well as the prior 2.4 World Engine. It seems promising - with a few caveats. While the 2.4 World Engine was turbocharged for the Dodge Caliber SR-T (or such - not sure if that's the right designation) - for perhaps 285hp or so - it doesn't seem as if anyone has yet turboed the Tigershark version - and some folks seem to think that its (variable/adjustable) sized cylinder walls might not be up to the task of holding a lot of extra power. Don't know (but this would be a shame)....and some have raised this concern.

Seems to me that a 250 (or so) hp version of the 124 could really be a good thing (for us and for Fiat) - with real performance (coupled with the expected suspension tweaks on an already very nice and light platform)....anyway - here s to hoping that Fiat/Abarth engineers and Fiat bean counters see the light (as it were) and take the steps to (someday soon?) make it happen.

Sure - doing the engineering and doing so to pass emissions and such is an investment - for what would only be a small volume seller - understood. But if Fiat really wants to make a splash (particularly in the U.S. market where its not so widely known) - a true all around high performing Abarth spyder would be marketing gold....otherwise potential buyers of even the base 124 might just as well get excited to buy a Hyundai.....(IMO)

MrFiat
04-03-2016, 07:42 PM
Toro CCR 2000 Elaborazione Abarth. --- Well, why not ?

http://i67.tinypic.com/5wfdbb.jpg

(Sorry, couldn't help myself) jestera

shagghie
04-04-2016, 12:40 AM
Just remember even a piggy back will get us close to 200hp, so just add $350 (used price) to the sticker and we can all be happy that FCA don't have to raise the entry price on this EA124

Amacento
04-04-2016, 08:00 AM
Thanks Amacento. I actually took some time and read about the 2.4L "Tigershark" (MultiAir2)… Sure - doing the engineering and doing so to pass emissions and such is an investment - for what would only be a small volume seller - understood. But if Fiat really wants to make a splash (particularly in the U.S. market where its not so widely known) - a true all around high performing Abarth spyder would be marketing gold....otherwise potential buyers of even the base 124 might just as well get excited to buy a Hyundai.....(IMO)
That's my point, there is no need to invest more money… the engine is out there (in the USA).

I would never put any FIAT and Hyundai in the same sentence, but I get your point.

I feel you, too, shagghie. But some people would rather pay a little extra to get the proper factory tune.

MrFiat
04-04-2016, 09:32 AM
Just remember even a piggy back will get us close to 200hp, so just add $350 (used price) to the sticker and we can all be happy that FCA don't have to raise the entry price on this EA124

All true, but couldn't you do the same with any of the three F124 models? The EA is still no different.

ps.. I really enjoyed your track video from Harris Hill by the way. :encouragement:.

Winoman
04-04-2016, 04:37 PM
That's my point, there is no need to invest more money… the engine is out there (in the USA).

Well I'm thinking they turbo it....so perhaps there is some engineering and recertification necessary...


I would never put any FIAT and Hyundai in the same sentence, but I get your point.

I hear you (sorry). While I think Hyundai, Toyota, Honda and such make good cars...and better in many ways all the time.....for me....as someone who likes to keep a car for a long time....and who enjoys a bit of "personality" as it were....I want something a bit more special/different. For instance, another car I've owned - in addition to those I've already mentioned - was a Mazda Millennia S - with the very unique Miller Cycle turbocharged engine. In addition to the cool engine - it handled far better than most any Japanese sedan of the day (was right there with BMW IMO)....and was a really great car. In fact, back in the late 90/early 2000s I won 3 "Meatballs" (think mini-cannonball run) with that car...surprising (repeatedly) all the hot rods of various sorts and smug drivers & teams...so I get it (why a Fiat is more special)....

Jtpc2007
04-04-2016, 04:49 PM
here is footage of abarth 124 exhaust and car being trailered:

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/future-cars/videos/a28710/fiat-124-abarth-spider-sound/

after I posted this, road and track updated this article revealing the US Elaborazione abarth isn't getting the record Monza exhaust of the 124 Abarth in Europe. :/

shagghie
04-04-2016, 11:53 PM
Rocket Bunnies wuz here:

21556

OhSoLo
04-05-2016, 09:01 AM
Rocket Bunnies wuz here:

21556

*boing!*

Abarthman
04-05-2016, 02:21 PM
True, the 1750 Turbo Benzina would certainly be something special and it is used in the Abarth 124 Rally. For the street car, it is hard to imagine they could come up with a reasonable price point using this engine, though. The 1750 TBi is an expensive, Direct Injected engine, with dual continuous variable valve timing plus was revamped with the help of Ferrari for use in the 4C. With a power range of 240 - 300 hp, it seems like quite a lot of engine for an reasonably affordable roadster. Detuning it would also seem to be a waste of such an engine. The 1.4L also holds an advantage of being lighter, which fits the light weight roadster concept which is the hallmark of the chassis. The choice of this engine makes sense in this context. Now if they were building a Z4 priced competitor that would be different.

My guess is the 1750 engine costs within $500 of what the 1.4L Turbo costs, and it's probably closer than that. I don't think cost was the issue.

After observing Fiat for DECADES, I think Fiat wouldn't do it simply because they don't want to tread on the 4C's "turf".... putting the same engine in the lowly 124 that they put in the exotic 4C. Because they know that, even with an engine detuned to 200hp, the power/weight ration would be uncomfortably close to the 4C....... enough that testers would (publicly) question why would anyone spend $70k for a 4C when you could get virtually identical performance from a $40k 124 spider Abarth. Especially knowing the 1750 engine could EASILY be tuned to a LOT more HP.

I think it's a question of internal politics.

For instance, let's address the issue you won't quite say, Chris. The 1.4L Turbo ALREADY puts out 170hp; it always HAS.
But Fiat does NOT want to let their European brethren know we are getting a more powerful engine in our US cars that they get in the 160hp SS version of the 500. However, all it takes is a little review of European vs. US 0 - 60 times (our car is quicker, even though it is heavier) and a little interpretation of dyno results of cars here in the US to prove it: our 1.4L turbo puts out the SAME 170hp as the MultiAir engine in Europe does. But Fiat won't admit it.

I'm sorry, but Fiat's politics are STUPID, and I love the brand as much as anyone on this planet. They still are underestimating the market when they should be blowing the market out of the water! The 4C should be putting out over 260hp (and that engine is very capable of 300 hp all day long....), and the 1.4Turbo in ALL the Abarths should put out 200hp (which it can also do all day long).
Quit just trying to meet the competition and start kicking some b+++. The 124 Abarth doesn't just need to compete with the Miata. It needs to be clearly, markedly SUPERIOR. It's time to make Abarth a LEGEND again. The management at FCA needs to do with Abarth the exact same thing they are doing with SRT.

Amacento
04-06-2016, 08:57 AM
My guess is the 1750 engine costs within $500 of what the 1.4L Turbo costs, and it's probably closer than that. I don't think cost was the issue.

After observing Fiat for DECADES, I think Fiat wouldn't do it simply because they don't want to tread on the 4C's "turf".... putting the same engine in the lowly 124 that they put in the exotic 4C. Because they know that, even with an engine detuned to 200hp, the power/weight ration would be uncomfortably close to the 4C....... enough that testers would (publicly) question why would anyone spend $70k for a 4C when you could get virtually identical performance from a $40k 124 spider Abarth. Especially knowing the 1750 engine could EASILY be tuned to a LOT more HP.

I think it's a question of internal politics.

For instance, let's address the issue you won't quite say, Chris. The 1.4L Turbo ALREADY puts out 170hp; it always HAS.
But Fiat does NOT want to let their European brethren know we are getting a more powerful engine in our US cars that they get in the 160hp SS version of the 500. However, all it takes is a little review of European vs. US 0 - 60 times (our car is quicker, even though it is heavier) and a little interpretation of dyno results of cars here in the US to prove it: our 1.4L turbo puts out the SAME 170hp as the MultiAir engine in Europe does. But Fiat won't admit it.

I'm sorry, but Fiat's politics are STUPID, and I love the brand as much as anyone on this planet. They still are underestimating the market when they should be blowing the market out of the water! The 4C should be putting out over 260hp (and that engine is very capable of 300 hp all day long....), and the 1.4Turbo in ALL the Abarths should put out 200hp (which it can also do all day long).
Quit just trying to meet the competition and start kicking some b+++. The 124 Abarth doesn't just need to compete with the Miata. It needs to be clearly, markedly SUPERIOR. It's time to make Abarth a LEGEND again. The management at FCA needs to do with Abarth the exact same thing they are doing with SRT.
Spot on… Every syllable.

I don't feel the need to be overly critical (and the quoted post is not), but I do feel the need to be completely transparent on the subject at hand. While I do think ever increasingly restrictive EPA rules are also a factor, FIAT USA can do better… and the ABARTH brand deserves better.

MrFiat
04-06-2016, 10:56 AM
Spot on… Every syllable.

I don't feel the need to be overly critical (and the quoted post is not), but I do feel the need to be completely transparent on the subject at hand. While I do think ever increasingly restrictive EPA rules are also a factor, FIAT USA can do better… and the ABARTH brand deserves better.

I agree. It was well said. The apparent lack understanding (by FCA) about how Fiat and Abarth are percieved by the N.A. buying public , especially when it comes to the Abarth brand, is somewhat obvious to many of us.

I seriously think that FCA's North American marketing group could benefit from the advice and experience of an ad hoc Consumer Advisory Committee. If carefully chosen, a committee such as this could offer a much needed reality check for FCA and perhaps prevent glaring errors such as the one they're making with the EA.

shagghie
04-06-2016, 12:44 PM
And if I had a dollar for every A500 owner that is switching to the Focus ST right now... and for ONE reason: the extra power.

Amacento
04-06-2016, 05:52 PM
And if I had a dollar for every A500 owner that is switching to the Focus ST right now... and for ONE reason: the extra power.
I'd be broke. Only two people I know switched... due to FIAT USA post-purchase experience (not power).

To tie this comment to the other stuff we've batted around: Honoring heritage is part of the pre & post-purchase experience.

Fiat500USA
04-06-2016, 06:35 PM
My guess is the 1750 engine costs within $500 of what the 1.4L Turbo costs, and it's probably closer than that. I don't think cost was the issue.

After observing Fiat for DECADES, I think Fiat wouldn't do it simply because they don't want to tread on the 4C's "turf".... putting the same engine in the lowly 124 that they put in the exotic 4C. Because they know that, even with an engine detuned to 200hp, the power/weight ration would be uncomfortably close to the 4C....... enough that testers would (publicly) question why would anyone spend $70k for a 4C when you could get virtually identical performance from a $40k 124 spider Abarth. Especially knowing the 1750 engine could EASILY be tuned to a LOT more HP.

I think it's a question of internal politics.

For instance, let's address the issue you won't quite say, Chris. The 1.4L Turbo ALREADY puts out 170hp; it always HAS.
But Fiat does NOT want to let their European brethren know we are getting a more powerful engine in our US cars that they get in the 160hp SS version of the 500. However, all it takes is a little review of European vs. US 0 - 60 times (our car is quicker, even though it is heavier) and a little interpretation of dyno results of cars here in the US to prove it: our 1.4L turbo puts out the SAME 170hp as the MultiAir engine in Europe does. But Fiat won't admit it.

I'm sorry, but Fiat's politics are STUPID, and I love the brand as much as anyone on this planet. They still are underestimating the market when they should be blowing the market out of the water! The 4C should be putting out over 260hp (and that engine is very capable of 300 hp all day long....), and the 1.4Turbo in ALL the Abarths should put out 200hp (which it can also do all day long).
Quit just trying to meet the competition and start kicking some b+++. The 124 Abarth doesn't just need to compete with the Miata. It needs to be clearly, markedly SUPERIOR. It's time to make Abarth a LEGEND again. The management at FCA needs to do with Abarth the exact same thing they are doing with SRT.

This is a good point. From talking with a source, though, it seems that keeping the car affordable is an important consideration and that was why my comment was about cost. Most of the fans here know the value of the Abarth name, I think the concern is that outside of us, few know about the brand. How many posts do we read where someone is complaining about the price of even a Pop. Certain things being omitted like the Alcantara trim, brakes and exhaust point to that. I think they are trying to buy themselves into the market and not price themselves out.

I agree they should be crushing the competition and they certainly could. We are missing the whole story and hopefully that will be forth coming soon. Maybe we'll see a tuning program that will address the concerns voiced. How it all plays out will be interesting, that's for sure.

Winoman
04-07-2016, 12:05 AM
I don't know Fiat like most of you do. I do have a positive impression of the 500 (particularly in Abarth trim - but just in general). And I applaud Fiat for re-entering the US market and offering the 500 and now the 124 - both great moves IMO. However - I am not at all wedded to Fiat for any future car decision. I know what I want in my next car - in a fairly refined manner but with some leeway - and there are several cars of interest to me (when I do get around to purchasing our next one in a few years). I was very hot on the idea of a stripped down 4 banger Boxster that I could mod up a bit....until Porsche chose to not quite go this route (with an approx. $40K base price)....then I heard about the 124 and the possibility of an Abarth version that would exactly fit what I was looking for. I'm still hopeful that it will happen....but I really don't have a full appreciation for Fiats approach and reasoning in what they will do. I'm probably a niche interest buyer of a niche type of car - so perhaps my interests don't correspond to what others might be looking for....but perhaps I'm just the kind of potential Fiat buyer that they might want to consider appealing to....as it seems my interests aren't so far off of others. Anyway - I'm certainly willing to pay around the $40K price point for what I'm after. (If its less $ I won't complain - but if the car doesn't hit my performance expectations I'm not wedded to it...and I can pay more for a Boxster or such if I felt it was going to be "it" for me....etc)....and hey I'm here on this forum....so I am interested...

Also WRT talk of 500 Abarth folks going for the Focus ST. Not knocking the ST (great car - though I like the Fiesta better) - but the GTI is even better IMO - with lots more mod options if one really wants to go crazy with it. I've got a Mark VI that's just a beast (my pet name for the car is GT3 killer)...and not just power wise - it handles far better than I could ever imagine a FWD doing (I've changed out quite a few things....). Last year I took an acquaintance who owns a 911 out for a mountain run and afterwards he said that it beat his 911 in every measurable way (likely true)....not bad for a pedestrian little FWD hatchback eh? Never driven an Abarth 500 - but I bet juiced up a bit they would be fantastic. Not what I'm looking for at the moment (already got a very hot hatch)....I'm ready for a 2 seater with no top! Could it be a Fiat (I think that perhaps it could...we'll see....)

shagghie
04-07-2016, 10:28 AM
I don't know Fiat like most of you do. I do have a positive impression of the 500 (particularly in Abarth trim - but just in general). And I applaud Fiat for re-entering the US market and offering the 500 and now the 124 - both great moves IMO. However - I am not at all wedded to Fiat for any future car decision. I know what I want in my next car - in a fairly refined manner but with some leeway - and there are several cars of interest to me (when I do get around to purchasing our next one in a few years). I was very hot on the idea of a stripped down 4 banger Boxster that I could mod up a bit....until Porsche chose to not quite go this route (with an approx. $40K base price)....then I heard about the 124 and the possibility of an Abarth version that would exactly fit what I was looking for. I'm still hopeful that it will happen....but I really don't have a full appreciation for Fiats approach and reasoning in what they will do. I'm probably a niche interest buyer of a niche type of car - so perhaps my interests don't correspond to what others might be looking for....but perhaps I'm just the kind of potential Fiat buyer that they might want to consider appealing to....as it seems my interests aren't so far off of others. Anyway - I'm certainly willing to pay around the $40K price point for what I'm after. (If its less $ I won't complain - but if the car doesn't hit my performance expectations I'm not wedded to it...and I can pay more for a Boxster or such if I felt it was going to be "it" for me....etc)....and hey I'm here on this forum....so I am interested...

Also WRT talk of 500 Abarth folks going for the Focus ST. Not knocking the ST (great car - though I like the Fiesta better) - but the GTI is even better IMO - with lots more mod options if one really wants to go crazy with it. I've got a Mark VI that's just a beast (my pet name for the car is GT3 killer)...and not just power wise - it handles far better than I could ever imagine a FWD doing (I've changed out quite a few things....). Last year I took an acquaintance who owns a 911 out for a mountain run and afterwards he said that it beat his 911 in every measurable way (likely true)....not bad for a pedestrian little FWD hatchback eh? Never driven an Abarth 500 - but I bet juiced up a bit they would be fantastic. Not what I'm looking for at the moment (already got a very hot hatch)....I'm ready for a 2 seater with no top! Could it be a Fiat (I think that perhaps it could...we'll see....)

Greatly appreciate your input here, and I think it resonates well... i'm like you, not at ALL interested in the Ford offerings, regardless of specs on paper or 'drift mode' etc... haha. You are correct in your estimation of the A500 when modded...it can and often does keep up with any number of 'big boys' when done right. I spent from about 1996-2012 running and modifying VAG cars, my last build was a full-house supercharged VR6 corrado with every single part on it replaced other than the water coolant resevoir, with powder coated black porsche rims... it was an awesome build.. before that, a 337 with a GIAC 10.x chip with 21lbs of boost that would beat most R32 builds, but the mkIV chassis wasn't the best and I never invested in it. MkII Golf's and another '92 corrado complete the cars i've owned since '96...and I am a VAG fan...all that said, the Abarth has stolen my heart and I've invested more in it than any of my past VAG builds and it is a blast in auto-x or big track once stiffened and running +250whp it starts to really come into it's own and can eat up the road.

All this to say: I am DESPERATELY hoping the 124 Abarth actually arrives in proper trim and power to our market... the A500 is a 'gateway' drug, now the 124 had best deliver... otherwise there is no impetus to 'jump up' for the enthusiast. The base model will satisfy the hollywood top down sunshine crowd perfectly... but an Abarth is truly needed to catapult the brand equity and visibility and recognition here in the America. IF they do it right, it would BE the DISRUPTOR that Abarth is meant to be in ANY marketplace and on ANY track...

Winoman
04-07-2016, 12:13 PM
Wow Shagghie - both the Corrado & the 337 sound like the real deal. I'm familiar with some of the R32 builds and the VR6 in general - nothing to sneeze at - as it were. I've been a big fan of supercharging - but have come around to turbos (well in the last 15 years or so anyway...). Where I think the Abarth as well as the MK V GTIs through the current gen really excel though is their precision handling (particularly when tweaked a bit). I've not only done the usual sway bars (in this case rear only) and coilovers but I've done spherical joint sway bar endlinks, underbody chassis and rear stiffening, subframe bolting, plus upgraded the front control arms, properly adjusted for lowered stance and added an anti-lift kit....etc....its really quite amazing how well it drives and how well it drives very fast. I've never tracked it though - just mountain runs mostly....and my shop guys are always pushing me to take the S4 to the track - which is even more beastly (though getting somewhat long in the tooth in many ways - though I've maintained it pretty well.). I'd love to run on a track...my greatest fear is that I will get too addicted to it....so for now I find my roads and have the fun that I can.

My "Hollywood top down sunshine car" (as it were) is my Mustang (the only Ford I really want!). Its all original (never restored....though no one can believe it)....one of the very first 289 V8 convertibles to come off the assembly line....been in the family since new (I have all of the papers - including window sticker, sales receipt and the cancelled check used to buy it)....and it only has about 58,000 miles on it - absolutely immaculate....and its our weekend cruiser car extraordinaire. Not that it doesn't move out pretty well....heck I tell people that the engine is just coming into its own....lol. But yeah, for me....I want that Abarth 124 that will be world class (even before any mods....lol)

Amacento
04-07-2016, 01:11 PM
Greatly appreciate your input here, and I think it resonates well... i'm like you, not at ALL interested in the Ford offerings, regardless of specs on paper or 'drift mode' etc... haha. You are correct in your estimation of the A500 when modded...it can and often does keep up with any number of 'big boys' when done right. I spent from about 1996-2012 running and modifying VAG cars, my last build was a full-house supercharged VR6 corrado with every single part on it replaced other than the water coolant resevoir, with powder coated black porsche rims... it was an awesome build.. before that, a 337 with a GIAC 10.x chip with 21lbs of boost that would beat most R32 builds, but the mkIV chassis wasn't the best and I never invested in it. MkII Golf's and another '92 corrado complete the cars i've owned since '96...and I am a VAG fan...all that said, the Abarth has stolen my heart and I've invested more in it than any of my past VAG builds and it is a blast in auto-x or big track once stiffened and running +250whp it starts to really come into it's own and can eat up the road.

All this to say: I am DESPERATELY hoping the 124 Abarth actually arrives in proper trim and power to our market... the A500 is a 'gateway' drug, now the 124 had best deliver... otherwise there is no impetus to 'jump up' for the enthusiast. The base model will satisfy the hollywood top down sunshine crowd perfectly... but an Abarth is truly needed to catapult the brand equity and visibility and recognition here in the America. IF they do it right, it would BE the DISRUPTOR that Abarth is meant to be in ANY marketplace and on ANY track...
Remember, the stock A500 finished the 2012 Targa NFLD in style. It competed against Shelby (they finished slower) and other bigger vehicles in the Open Class. I think Subaru finished first. The driver said he couldn't believe we was hunted down by a FIAT the entire week.

Winoman
04-07-2016, 04:00 PM
Its always fun to be in a little 4 banger when you've just absolutely trounced some big American V8 muscle car or even some German or Italian (semi?) exotic....and I've been there many times (including everything from SRT Challengers, Mustangs of all stripes, Camaros, and even a highly modded BMW M car once...also Maseratis [2 notable occasions] and once 2 Lamborghinis.....who thought they were racing each other....lol). In fact - my biggest challenges ever in the GTI were 2 different (obviously) highly modded mini coopers....both quite surprised me initially....I was going but not fully pushing....reeled them in and passed them eventually.....but not without some furious wheel spinning (and a tad bit of wheel hop) - one guy actually looked terrified when I passed him....lol....I'm pretty loud too under WOT...and that's really a bit of an understatement...my GTI screams as much or more than any hot hatch rally car I've ever heard....I do my best to try not to scare the common folk...I was actually surprised by the Euro 124 Abarth sound clip...how much like my car (at idle) it sounded...sounded great....and my wife is going to hate it (she sometimes where ear plugs when we go out in the GTI...and I'm babying it when she is in the car...). I like!! (even though I'm on old fart).

Of course on a road course or in the twisties its even less fair (even vs one Maserati in a very fun extended backroads romp). And really - this is what driving is all about....not necessarily even being the absolute fastest (particularly just in a straight line) - but having and driving a car that is made for such drives, on a challenging road where you push the limits (responsibly of course) and just have a blast....its pure poetry...and exhilaration...makes you thankful to be alive....and alive and fortunate enough to enjoy such pleasures...

shagghie
04-07-2016, 10:45 PM
so is this our exhaust then? Nice press here: http://www.businessinsider.com/the-abarth-fiat-124-enthusiasts-love-2016-4


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ovv12s3FEvU

Amacento
04-08-2016, 06:44 AM
That is the EU-spec.

I searched for any example of this "Elaboration/Elaborated" naming system for ABARTH. I found 2 examples… they are both standard FIATs that have been converted to ABARTH replicas. This naming system is always used when someone outside the proper house comes up with their version of the donor car or anyone creates a replica. Is FIAT USA suggesting their making an ABARTH replica a/k/a fake ABARTH? Again, how does that help the marque?

rnddude
04-08-2016, 11:53 AM
Once again, very much like the car and the way it is upgraded, but it is an "esse", not an Abarth. Given the current offering mix, this is likely the one I would purchase over the base car. As I stated before, my concern is that offering this model as an "Abarth" may very well delay (or even prevent) the release of a car with all of these desirable upgrades, and the addition of a proper 200HP minimum motor, which could them be accepted by the faithful as a true Abarth.

shagghie
04-08-2016, 05:40 PM
yeah if they aim for 'no man's land' then the other risk is quite simply there won't even BE a market for the club/EA version of the Fiat-badged Abarth in the first place.
Those who 'care' about a performance version won't buy it, and those who don't, definitely won't buy it by definition.

Who's left to run around in a fiat with a black hood and suspension mods when the two most important performance bits (power and exhaust note) are left wanting?

rnddude
04-08-2016, 06:39 PM
Someone should put up a poll, base vs. Elaborazione vs. a "true" 124 Abarth. Maybe some real numbers would show FCA the depth of disappointment......

Winoman
04-08-2016, 07:12 PM
yeah if they aim for 'no man's land' then the other risk is quite simply there won't even BE a market for the club/EA version of the Fiat-badged Abarth in the first place.
Those who 'care' about a performance version won't buy it, and those who don't, definitely won't buy it by definition.

Who's left to run around in a fiat with a black hood and suspension mods when the two most important performance bits (power and exhaust note) are left wanting?

It still will be a fun car - just as the Miata is (pretty much just as the Miata is...)....funny....my son who owns a 1990 Miata got hammered a few months back on a Miata forum when he suggested to someone who was asking for advice on buying a used Miata and turboing and upgrading for performance that he should just buy a used Honda S2000 instead....as it would be so much easier to make it into what he was after....as the base is already much better and crazy power can be had much easier. Well the Miata fanboys didn't much like that suggestion at all - lol. Those enthusiasts here who are hoping for something more with the 124 Abarth are - at the very least - facing the same dilemma. Sure the base 124 and the red lipstick version will be fun cars in their own right - and nothing wrong with that....but its not an Abarth and its not what Fiat should be aspiring to in an Abarth....not if they hope that that name still means something and obviously not good enough for us enthusiasts who will be better off looking elsewhere (if they don't do the right thing).

Bruce Winter
04-08-2016, 07:54 PM
Would love the real abarth 124

Amacento
04-08-2016, 10:25 PM
Someone should put up a poll, base vs. Elaborazione vs. a "true" 124 Abarth. Maybe some real numbers would show FCA the depth of disappointment......
There it is.

Bruce Winter
04-08-2016, 10:44 PM
Where the poll?

shagghie
04-09-2016, 12:17 AM
Where the poll?



http://www.fiat500usaforum.com/showthread.php?24745-POLL-124-Spider

Rags747
04-09-2016, 12:19 PM
So I have read most of the posts in this thread, not all so let's cut to the chase. Is the general consensus that we will or will not have a full blown Abarth 124 Spider maybe 1 yr down the road?

My view is that I have no issues with what FCA has done here with the Fiat 124 Spider Abarth, I do believe that we will see a 100% Abarth Spider for the spring of 2017. Thoughts or has this been ruled out and maybe I just missed it.

morrisg
04-09-2016, 12:44 PM
Our guess (hope) is that there will be a real Abarth 124 with 200hp+, but no one has any definitive information on the likelihood of that occurring. And certainly no knowledge of the time frame. A good indicator will be what the aftermarket tuners can achieve with the 1.4L turbo engine of the base 124. Most of the complaints on this forum have to do with using the Abarth name on the Fiat 124 Spider Elaborazione Abarth model as some people feel that devalues the Abarth name.

Rags747
04-09-2016, 12:59 PM
If we do get a full on Abarth Spider in spring 2017 then I do not feel that FCA will have devalued the name, it's just a matter of offering more choices at more price points. This is what I feel will happen, just makes too much sense. Even a power increase to the 190 range would make it all justified IMO.

shagghie
04-09-2016, 02:20 PM
If we do get a full on Abarth Spider in spring 2017 then I do not feel that FCA will have devalued the name, it's just a matter of offering more choices at more price points. This is what I feel will happen, just makes too much sense. Even a power increase to the 190 range would make it all justified IMO.

I think boils down to (as you suggest)
1) Devalue the name/purpose of the Abarth marque
2) We actually WANT and this market NEEDS a real Abarth option, desperately.

The Abarth, quite simply, MUST stand out from the "FIATA WARS"... as a marque. It is not enough to offer a tunable 'platform' unless there is an example offering of what the platform is capable of in power and handling. This is why BMW has an M series... you "can" build up a 3-series to rival a factory M series easily, but the brand cannot survive with its current reputation WITHOUT an actual M3 offering. Speaking of BMW, even a Mini JCW has 228hp. Sure it's a 3000lb pig of a car, but at least it is *trying* to stay quick from the factory.

neubauerjoseph
04-09-2016, 02:55 PM
so far from online it just seems like a Sport 124 rather than a true abarth that has body, engine, brake, seats, and exhaust changes. I will have to try the abarth here and see what they do and if its worth the price.

Amacento
04-10-2016, 10:26 AM
The only other official FIAT release using "Elaborazione" and ABARTH in the same sentence? Back when FIAT half-heartedly supported don Carlo taking a crack at the '57 FIAT 500. Even then… it bore full-on ABARTH badging. What ABARTH & Co. accomplished with that model, at Monza, is what ultimately forced FIAT into showing proper respect [to ABARTH] as a marque. In my opinion, this F124EA undoes what took Sr. Karl almost a decade to achieve. That's just the naming system… without the fact it has the same engine as the standard FIAT (and is missing some other key bits).

Amacento
04-10-2016, 10:54 AM
Success at Monza forced FIAT's hand. They had to respect ABARTH & Co. But giving the official marque designation still didn't come easy. The first ABARTH 500 was a FIAT 500 Elaborazione ABARTH.
http://www.autobelle.it/annunci/public0001/img-1262713065.jpg

This is why I firmly hold my ground on the F124EA. ABARTH is an official marque… much more than just an independent carrozzeria taking a swing at a performance focused FIAT.
http://blog.caranddriver.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/2017-Fiat-124-Spider-Elaborazione-Abarth-102-876x535.jpg

Dilution is the only word to describe this offering. FIAT USA didn't even see fit to make a dedicated placard. Seriously?!

MrFiat
04-11-2016, 07:49 PM
The Fiat124EA model is such an afterthought that the hood and rear deck get their black paint scheme applied here in the US AFTER Fiat takes delivery from the factory.

shagghie
04-11-2016, 10:02 PM
The Fiat124EA model is such an afterthought that the hood and rear deck get their black paint scheme applied here in the US AFTER Fiat takes delivery from the factory.

Boardering on ridiculousness... There must be even more to this story.

MrFiat
04-11-2016, 10:45 PM
Boardering on ridiculousness... There must be even more to this story.

+1

Fiat500USA
04-12-2016, 12:34 AM
The Fiat124EA model is such an afterthought that the hood and rear deck get their black paint scheme applied here in the US AFTER Fiat takes delivery from the factory.

Wait, the European Abarth 124 also receives special treatment after assembly in Japan. After arriving in Italy, the cars are sent to Officine Abarth in Torino. There, the Racing Anti-glare kit (blacked-out hood and trunk) as well as the Racing Alcantara Kit is installed. That is also where the expensive Record Monza exhaust is installed. Afterwards, each car is tested and certified by an Abarth technician, and the first 2,500 cars will get a sequentially numbered plate affixed to the interior.

As far as Abarth being a unique, separate marque here in the US like it is in Europe, according to the powers that be, that is sadly not realistic/viable here in this country due to the tiny volumes and brand awareness. That is why our car is technically a Fiat 500 Abarth and not an Abarth 500. In Europe, the marque is established and known, there are separate dealerships, and there are many more classic examples around. Plus, people will pay €30,000 + for an Abarth 500 (or other A-segment hot hatch) without a problem.

A question that comes to mind is how much could they realistically ask for (or how much would one pay for) an Abarth 124 here in this country?

Amacento
04-12-2016, 06:40 AM
Wait, the European Abarth 124 also receives special treatment after assembly in Japan. After arriving in Italy, the cars are sent to Officine Abarth in Torino. There, the Racing Anti-glare kit (blacked-out hood and trunk) as well as the Racing Alcantara Kit is installed. That is also where the expensive Record Monza exhaust is installed. Afterwards, each car is tested and certified by an Abarth technician, and the first 2,500 cars will get a sequentially numbered plate affixed to the interior.

As far as Abarth being a unique, separate marque here in the US like it is in Europe, according to the powers that be, that is sadly not realistic/viable here in this country due to the tiny volumes and brand awareness. That is why our car is technically a Fiat 500 Abarth and not an Abarth 500. In Europe, the marque is established and known, there are separate dealerships, and there are many more classic examples around. Plus, people will pay €30,000 + for an Abarth 500 (or other A-segment hot hatch) without a problem.

A question that comes to mind is how much could they realistically ask for (or how much would one pay for) an Abarth 124 here in this country?
1) Thanks for straightening the first bit out. I didn't think the EU-spec was unique to the point EVERYTHING is finished in Europe. That wouldn't make sense. Post shipping finishing touches likely also gets the model certain tax exemptions and can claim non-Japanese assembly.

2) I disagree with the "powers-that-be". The difference doesn't need to go to the extreme we see in Europe, but they can certain make [at least] a big a deal of it as is done with NISMO or Shelby. In several trips to Europe (Austria, Italy, Slovenia, Spain, UK) I've not seen a separate dealership… although I know they exist. I've seen ABARTH, Alfa & Jeep sold at the same dealer. I've seen Alfa, FIAT & Lancia sold at the same dealer. I've seen ABARTH, Alfa, FIAT and Lancia sold at the same dealer. Adding the pricing bit is a slap in the face. I mean, you know the sticker price of ABARTHs here. Sure, most people don't want to pay sticker, but that's the same with any car. North Americans are massive consumers… we think it should always be our way. That shouldn't get in the way of vigorously promoting heritage at the dealer and television adverts.

3) Your final question is linked to what's included in a full-on version. I think $10-15k is reasonable. Of course, I also think that's the case with the A500.

None of your well stated points explains away the use of Elaborazione. We can't erase the history of use with the excuse, "Well… it's a tough market". They could have delivered a slightly less "extravagant" A124 than is offered in Europe. That's what is done with the NA-spec A500. It has the power, exhaust and other minimum boxes checked that make it feel full-on. Of course, I'm one of the nuts who would try to find a way to own an A695B if it was offered here. Everything about that offering makes it worth every penny (in my opinion).

shagghie
04-12-2016, 09:11 AM
Wait, the European Abarth 124 also receives special treatment after assembly in Japan. After arriving in Italy, the cars are sent to Officine Abarth in Torino. There, the Racing Anti-glare kit (blacked-out hood and trunk) as well as the Racing Alcantara Kit is installed. That is also where the expensive Record Monza exhaust is installed. Afterwards, each car is tested and certified by an Abarth technician, and the first 2,500 cars will get a sequentially numbered plate affixed to the interior.

As far as Abarth being a unique, separate marque here in the US like it is in Europe, according to the powers that be, that is sadly not realistic/viable here in this country due to the tiny volumes and brand awareness. That is why our car is technically a Fiat 500 Abarth and not an Abarth 500. In Europe, the marque is established and known, there are separate dealerships, and there are many more classic examples around. Plus, people will pay €30,000 + for an Abarth 500 (or other A-segment hot hatch) without a problem.

A question that comes to mind is how much could they realistically ask for (or how much would one pay for) an Abarth 124 here in this country?

The powers that be, are failing to capitalize on the one single aspect of FCA that can make them viable here in North America: performance heritage and that heritage continuing today. They invested so much in the A500 and Abarth badge and reputation here and there's not a single 20-something now that doesn't know about the A500 and its exhaust note as a result. A pissed off small Italian car "works" with the fast and furious crowd. Powers the be need to wake up and take a pulse and get a beat on the street fast before they completely blunt the the momentum they've created and get laughed at by the generation that will propel the brand the next 20-30 years. Most highschool and college kids these days know more about their cars and engines and power/weight ratios than they do about science, and here in NA, specifications / #'s trump all else.

Do or do not, do not try.

MrFiat
04-12-2016, 11:53 AM
Wait, the European Abarth 124 also receives special treatment after assembly in Japan. After arriving in Italy, the cars are sent to Officine Abarth in Torino. There, the Racing Anti-glare kit (blacked-out hood and trunk) as well as the Racing Alcantara Kit is installed. That is also where the expensive Record Monza exhaust is installed. Afterwards, each car is tested and certified by an Abarth technician, and the first 2,500 cars will get a sequentially numbered plate affixed to the interior.

As far as Abarth being a unique, separate marque here in the US like it is in Europe, according to the powers that be, that is sadly not realistic/viable here in this country due to the tiny volumes and brand awareness. That is why our car is technically a Fiat 500 Abarth and not an Abarth 500. In Europe, the marque is established and known, there are separate dealerships, and there are many more classic examples around. Plus, people will pay €30,000 + for an Abarth 500 (or other A-segment hot hatch) without a problem.

A question that comes to mind is how much could they realistically ask for (or how much would one pay for) an Abarth 124 here in this country?

First of all, Chris, thanks very much for the straight scoop on the paint scheme. It clears up a lot of misconceptions. But Shagghie has a good point, where brand awareness is concerned.

The A500 was brilliantly executed and did a great job bringing the awareness of the Abarth brand to the N.A. shores. The A500 now has a great reputation as a small car with a big bite! Not everyone's cup of tea, of course, but at least the majority of enthusiasts are aware of the Abarth 500's "bad boy" image. Once you earned that image, there are only three things that that can be done.

You can maintain the image, you can enhance the image, or you can destroy the image.

Obviously we prefer one of the first two options and are hoping against hope that the third does not occur. To that end, we are concerned that the F124EA, if not done in the true Abarth tradition, risks the third option coming to pass.

morrisg
04-12-2016, 02:55 PM
Sorry, but an Abarth 124 Spider that is $40k+ is out of my budget for a car, no matter how well tuned it is. So I'm only interested if the price is much lower.

When I visit the Mazda ND forums I notice lots of people who LOVE the car, BUY one, and then IMMEDIATELY upgrade the exhaust to get a better sound and upgrade the springs / shocks / sway bars to get a better ride or to reduce the roll on turns or to lower the ride height so the wheels look better on the car. I want the Fiat 124 Spider EA to come CORRECT from the factory so no exhaust or suspension mods are needed. It should sound like a SPORTS car and handle like a SPORTS car. Not a GT Touring car, that's the Lusso's job. Not a basic runabout, that's the Classica's job.

For pricing, since we know the Fiat 124 Spider EA is aiming at the Club version of the Mazda ND, it should be priced competitively with the Club model: about $27,500 US. I believe this is the right product placement for this model.

For a full on Abarth model, Recaros, Monza Record Exhaust, 225hp+ engine/tune, etc etc, sure this will be a higher priced model and uphold the Abarth heritage that everyone on this forum is talking about. But remember the full Abarth model is NOT the Fiat 124 Spider EA that the USA is getting this summer. Let's hope we get a full Abarth version in the future, it would be welcomed.

Klasse Act
04-12-2016, 07:17 PM
So just to be clear, this car will still have the FIAT badge on the front and rear, correct?

Amacento
04-12-2016, 09:17 PM
So just to be clear, this car will still have the FIAT badge on the front and rear, correct?
Yep.

Amacento
04-12-2016, 09:28 PM
... For a full on Abarth model, Recaros, Monza Record Exhaust, 225hp+ engine/tune, etc etc, sure this will be a higher priced model and uphold the Abarth heritage that everyone on this forum is talking about. But remember the full Abarth model is NOT the Fiat 124 Spider EA that the USA is getting this summer. Let's hope we get a full Abarth version in the future, it would be welcomed.
Unfortunately, I'm beginning to doubt FIAT USA will do right by enthusiasts. The FCA execs only seem to care about Challenger & Charger heritage. Odd as Dodge can't hold a match to ABARTH, Alfa or Lancia.

Fiat500USA
04-12-2016, 10:55 PM
1) Thanks for straightening the first bit out. I didn't think the EU-spec was unique to the point EVERYTHING is finished in Europe. That wouldn't make sense. Post shipping finishing touches likely also gets the model certain tax exemptions and can claim non-Japanese assembly.

2) I disagree with the "powers-that-be". The difference doesn't need to go to the extreme we see in Europe, but they can certain make [at least] a big a deal of it as is done with NISMO or Shelby. In several trips to Europe (Austria, Italy, Slovenia, Spain, UK) I've not seen a separate dealership… although I know they exist. I've seen ABARTH, Alfa & Jeep sold at the same dealer. I've seen Alfa, FIAT & Lancia sold at the same dealer. I've seen ABARTH, Alfa, FIAT and Lancia sold at the same dealer. Adding the pricing bit is a slap in the face. I mean, you know the sticker price of ABARTHs here. Sure, most people don't want to pay sticker, but that's the same with any car. North Americans are massive consumers… we think it should always be our way. That shouldn't get in the way of vigorously promoting heritage at the dealer and television adverts.

3) Your final question is linked to what's included in a full-on version. I think $10-15k is reasonable. Of course, I also think that's the case with the A500.

None of your well stated points explains away the use of Elaborazione. We can't erase the history of use with the excuse, "Well… it's a tough market". They could have delivered a slightly less "extravagant" A124 than is offered in Europe. That's what is done with the NA-spec A500. It has the power, exhaust and other minimum boxes checked that make it feel full-on. Of course, I'm one of the nuts who would try to find a way to own an A695B if it was offered here. Everything about that offering makes it worth every penny (in my opinion).

Can't argue with any of your/or the other poster's observations. All have really good points and make a lot of sense. I'll just clarify my comment and elaborate on them a little.

1) I think it points to just how limited production these cars are. In Europe, it can also explain some of the cost as it is pretty exclusive to have a separate facility hand assemble and modify a brand new car. We'll have to find out the details of what is done in North America, but I think it is not necessarily a bad thing to have the car modified here either. While they are at it maybe they can tweak the..., etc. LOL

2) This is a huge subject, but my post was limited to just share what I've been told by execs on a few occasions when the conversation turns specifically to the Abarth brand and to address why we don't have the same totally separate marque/brand here in the US. It doesn't address the Spider situation. I'm sure we'll hear more on that subject as the car gets closer to launch.

3) I'm curious to hear people's opinions on the pricing of a car with the Abarth name. I'm especially interested in hearing people who are not ravenous Abarth enthusiasts opinions on how much they would pay. If you think about it, the company already has us. We'll happily pay dearly for a car we love, but I think they are trying to reach the new generation of enthusiasts.

Winoman
04-13-2016, 01:01 AM
I respect the Abarth name and it would be cool to have one - but my decision will be (and always has been) based on the car fitting my wants/needs as well as doing such with some degree of (my perceived) value. I'm certainly willing to pay (somewhat) more for an Abarth badged 124....but only if I perceive its performance to warrant the extra charge. I also understand that the car is (to some degree) just a "souped-up" Miata....and while that's not at all a bad thing IMO....it also makes it tough to spend considerably more for a 124 or an Abarth 124 over the base Miata....particularly if a path to performance is also available in the Miata (for much less total cost). Still - I am inclined to go Fiat/Abarth...but mostly because I perceive that there will be a notable performance boost (in both power and handling)....I also like the look of the car (better than the current ND Miata) and yes - to at least some degree - I value the added exclusiveness....not that I am a snob (I really don't much care what other people think)....but I like getting something "special" that's not just run of the mill...and I believe (perhaps based on just pure faith or hopefulness) that the 124 Abarth will eventually meet my expectations...

Amacento
04-13-2016, 06:59 AM
Can't argue with any of your/or the other poster's observations. All have really good points and make a lot of sense. I'll just clarify my comment and elaborate on them a little.

1) I think it points to just how limited production these cars are. In Europe, it can also explain some of the cost as it is pretty exclusive to have a separate facility hand assemble and modify a brand new car. We'll have to find out the details of what is done in North America, but I think it is not necessarily a bad thing to have the car modified here either. While they are at it maybe they can tweak the..., etc. LOL

2) This is a huge subject, but my post was limited to just share what I've been told by execs on a few occasions when the conversation turns specifically to the Abarth brand and to address why we don't have the same totally separate marque/brand here in the US. It doesn't address the Spider situation. I'm sure we'll hear more on that subject as the car gets closer to launch.

3) I'm curious to hear people's opinions on the pricing of a car with the Abarth name. I'm especially interested in hearing people who are not ravenous Abarth enthusiasts opinions on how much they would pay. If you think about it, the company already has us. We'll happily pay dearly for a car we love, but I think they are trying to reach the new generation of enthusiasts.
Four letters… FAZA. Sr Cosentino & his fleet of ABARTHs banned from competition in this country (after, what, 53 wins/titles). FIAT USA a/k/a FCA a/k/a CD can't figure out how to fit that into their "Bad Boy" campaign?

My friend, it doesn't take a ravenous fan to figure out they're not interested in working on educating or improving sales. I feel like Don Draper here.

rnddude
04-13-2016, 10:11 AM
Winoman, that quite a collection of cars you have there, sir!

drjoe1977
04-13-2016, 08:01 PM
On January 2017 i am changing my 500 abarth and my first choice is the Fiat 124 Spider Elaborazione Abarth. It all depends on the price, trade price in the 500 abarth by the Fiat studio and if a 124 complete abarth version is on schedulle. Pricing is very important due to the 500 abarth trade in value. Anything over $30,000 and the 124 EA is on used porsche 981 territory. New miata was on my short list with the 500 abarth this january, but the character of the little car and heavy discounts made the decision. I believe that the main factor in making a Fiat an abarth is the engine and exhaust, both are in the 124 Spider Elaborazione Abarth. Seats, big brakes and suspension will complete the package, a 10hp difference is not going to spoil the fun character of this car. The miata is no longer in my wish list. If i decide to get one first thing will be exhaust and any source of ECU mods anyways. I prefer a competitive prize rather than an expensive "full" abarth version.

MJAB
04-13-2016, 09:56 PM
My guess is the 1750 engine costs within $500 of what the 1.4L Turbo costs, and it's probably closer than that. I don't think cost was the issue.

After observing Fiat for DECADES, I think Fiat wouldn't do it simply because they don't want to tread on the 4C's "turf".... putting the same engine in the lowly 124 that they put in the exotic 4C. Because they know that, even with an engine detuned to 200hp, the power/weight ration would be uncomfortably close to the 4C....... enough that testers would (publicly) question why would anyone spend $70k for a 4C when you could get virtually identical performance from a $40k 124 spider Abarth. Especially knowing the 1750 engine could EASILY be tuned to a LOT more HP.

I think it's a question of internal politics.

For instance, let's address the issue you won't quite say, Chris. The 1.4L Turbo ALREADY puts out 170hp; it always HAS.
But Fiat does NOT want to let their European brethren know we are getting a more powerful engine in our US cars that they get in the 160hp SS version of the 500. However, all it takes is a little review of European vs. US 0 - 60 times (our car is quicker, even though it is heavier) and a little interpretation of dyno results of cars here in the US to prove it: our 1.4L turbo puts out the SAME 170hp as the MultiAir engine in Europe does. But Fiat won't admit it.

I'm sorry, but Fiat's politics are STUPID, and I love the brand as much as anyone on this planet. They still are underestimating the market when they should be blowing the market out of the water! The 4C should be putting out over 260hp (and that engine is very capable of 300 hp all day long....), and the 1.4Turbo in ALL the Abarths should put out 200hp (which it can also do all day long).
Quit just trying to meet the competition and start kicking some b+++. The 124 Abarth doesn't just need to compete with the Miata. It needs to be clearly, markedly SUPERIOR. It's time to make Abarth a LEGEND again. The management at FCA needs to do with Abarth the exact same thing they are doing with SRT.

The 1750 TBi it is used as base engine for the rally version, named 1.8 bialbero, but it located in a postition that will not allow crash test homologation for "standard" street use (intrusion in the cabin). Also is going to be introduced a new 2 l 4 cylinders engine (Global medium engine) and a new family of 3 and 4 cylinders (Global Small Engine) that will replace in the future the 1.4 Fire family (and other FIRE engines). One of the GME 4 cylinders is the gasoline engine in the Alfa Romeo Giulia.
European Abarth 500 doesn't use 1.4 Multiair engine, instead it are used the T-Jet engines.
1.4 Multiair engine was used in Abarth (Grande) Punto.
As always for Fiat/Abarth in Europe the official maximum power is always lower than the real performance of the engine. There were always rumors about the reason, some say because so to have lower road taxes and insurances charges.

Note: european Abarth 124 is rated 170 CV, that are 167.7 HP, so the difference it is not 10 HP. To add that here in Europe we do not have U.S.A. low octane regular 87 and so engine doesn't need to also be tuned to run with that fuel.
Even if gasoline prices are low, here in the European Union one U.S. gallon of gasoline cost around USD 5.3 - 6.5 per gallon for what in U.S. is premium gasoline (standard here), so even Abarth are tuned taking a look to fuel consuption.

In the new Teksid websitethere are some photos of the new aluminium blocks of the new engines.
http://www.teksid.com/it/aluminum/stabilimenti/carmagnola-unita-2

FCA marketing strategies are splitted in the four regional macro areas. From what can I see from outside it seems that Fiat in NAFTA strategies is at the bottom of the list... even worse with someone rowing against (but maybe I am bad).
If they doesn't want to invest in an Abarth 124 certification, they could at least sell elaboration kits boxes.
http://www.abarth.it/content/dam/abarth/kit/kit-abarth-elaborazione-595/elaborazione_595.jpg

Winoman
04-14-2016, 01:14 AM
Winoman, that quite a collection of cars you have there, sir!

Thanks - and yes I love them all (and will likely own and drive them until they pretty much don't run anymore). I always look for a special car - something unique with some character - as I tend to keep them and not just trade them in. The car with the least mileage (by far) is the Mustang. The Audi has 160K or so and is still running very strong - can smoke most any vehicle on the road (even most motorcycles need to go up onto 1 wheel to take me off the line). All the same its my heavy duty hauler (check out my garage pic). And you wouldn't even believe/couldn't imagine some of the things I've done in that car. Its great when I go out to be able to pick a different car and enjoy its unique character. I love to drive and I'm looking forward to driving a tricked out 124 one day (well maybe....here's hoping...).

Jtpc2007
04-21-2016, 05:34 PM
Sorry, but an Abarth 124 Spider that is $40k+ is out of my budget for a car, no matter how well tuned it is. So I'm only interested if the price is much lower.

When I visit the Mazda ND forums I notice lots of people who LOVE the car, BUY one, and then IMMEDIATELY upgrade the exhaust to get a better sound and upgrade the springs / shocks / sway bars to get a better ride or to reduce the roll on turns or to lower the ride height so the wheels look better on the car. I want the Fiat 124 Spider EA to come CORRECT from the factory so no exhaust or suspension mods are needed. It should sound like a SPORTS car and handle like a SPORTS car. Not a GT Touring car, that's the Lusso's job. Not a basic runabout, that's the Classica's job.

For pricing, since we know the Fiat 124 Spider EA is aiming at the Club version of the Mazda ND, it should be priced competitively with the Club model: about $27,500 US. I believe this is the right product placement for this model.

For a full on Abarth model, Recaros, Monza Record Exhaust, 225hp+ engine/tune, etc etc, sure this will be a higher priced model and uphold the Abarth heritage that everyone on this forum is talking about. But remember the full Abarth model is NOT the Fiat 124 Spider EA that the USA is getting this summer. Let's hope we get a full Abarth version in the future, it would be welcomed.


Totally agree. I would love if we had the option of an Abarth spider, but even if we did, the price would be higher than most US costumers that are shopping in the miata/124 spider territory. Abarth just doesn't have the clout here to demand German prices yet.
So yeah, I would love an Abarth 124 spider if it had a price of $31,000, but chances are it wouldn't if they had all the standard equipment of euro abarth spider. So the EA 124 is the compromise that might work. If it is around $28,500 to $31,000 range, that almost gives us an abarth (minus standard brembos, alcantara package, abarth logos, and valved exaust) without the $38,000-$40,000 range.
But we'll see what they price the EA at, but I'm sure they scaled it back here to help with pricing scheme and hopefully be more attainable to those on a new Miata budget.

Amacento
04-21-2016, 06:00 PM
The price point for the A124... if they really wanted to introduce it... could be priced just right ($31k-35k). You can't go by currency rates. Our A500 has the motor of an Alfa and Punto ABARTH. They don't even have that option in Europe.

The A124EA is cop-out, in my opinion. Of course, it changes the character of the car... Unless you don't care at all about the heritage of the brand.

Fiat500USA
04-28-2016, 10:24 PM
http://www.fiat500usaforum.com/showthread.php?24933-Fiat-124-Spider-News

:Blue:xyxwavegr_grin