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madmack
03-01-2016, 11:51 AM
YES... :clap: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJxGRemOtgY

trevc
03-01-2016, 12:00 PM
Only 170 - how is that worth the money??

datasage
03-01-2016, 12:12 PM
Apparently there is also a rally version which will have 300hp.

Press release and details here: http://www.autoblog.com/2016/03/01/fiat-abarth-124-spider-geneva-official/?ncid=edlinkusauto00000016

TheDan
03-01-2016, 12:30 PM
Only 170 - how is that worth the money??
Apparently there is also a rally version which will have 300hp.It's not worth the money, but I still want it. Are they going to let people order the rally version?

Amacento
03-01-2016, 01:14 PM
It's not worth the money, but I still want it. Are they going to let people order the rally version?
The A124 Rally is intended for private sales (race teams).

TheDan
03-01-2016, 03:22 PM
The A124 Rally is intended for private sales (race teams).They need to just shut up and take my money.

unknownsir
03-01-2016, 03:44 PM
the 170hp is the Euro spec not US spec. Just like the 124 has two different specs I would assume that the Abarth will too.

morrisg
03-01-2016, 03:54 PM
Oh yes, let's go for 200hp and 200+ lb-ft torque!

B3NN3TT
03-01-2016, 04:03 PM
the 170hp is the Euro spec not US spec. Just like the 124 has two different specs I would assume that the Abarth will too.

This.

If you'll recall, the Euro-spec 500 Abarth makes a lot less power than our US version as well. Wait until the LA auto show to start throwing tomatos.

morrisg
03-01-2016, 04:13 PM
The Autoblog article says New York Auto Show for Abarth USA details.

Klasse Act
03-01-2016, 07:55 PM
10 hp bump....must be the muffler delete for the Abarth, LOL. I've gotta say though, the car looks great but my God if 200 hp is doable for us here, an OEM should be able to atleast start there....right?

Amacento
03-01-2016, 09:52 PM
They need to just shut up and take my money.
Genius yelrotflmao-vi

Amacento
03-01-2016, 09:54 PM
10 hp bump....must be the muffler delete for the Abarth, LOL. I've gotta say though, the car looks great but my God if 200 hp is doable for us here, an OEM should be able to atleast start there....right?
Those are the EU specs. It's a 30-35hp leap from their A500s.

unknownsir
03-03-2016, 09:33 AM
The bigger question should be if you buy the rally version would it be street legal.


It's not worth the money, but I still want it. Are they going to let people order the rally version?

TheDan
03-03-2016, 02:36 PM
The bigger question should be if you buy the rally version would it be street legal.They usually have to be. They drive over public roads to get from one stage section to the next.

morrisg
03-03-2016, 07:50 PM
It's a race car so it doesn't meet any of the pollution requirements nor has it been tested for crashworthiness. No, it isn't a street legal car.

Winoman
03-06-2016, 12:46 AM
If one really wants the rally version they should just buy the Alpha 4c (and save perhaps $50K+)....so no the rally car is really not what your looking for (check out interior pics for instance). Still Abarth should be able to do well better than 170 hp. Even 200hp is a minimum threshold IMO - with 230-240 being more about right (for paying the premium this car will garner and to be competitive in the segment IMO). Perhaps a street version of the 124 Abarth will appear one day with the 1.7 L....maybe in a few years when I'll be in the market....here's to hoping Fiat will do the right thing with this car....

morrisg
03-06-2016, 09:44 PM
Rumor is 190 hp for the USA version, but that's a single data point on the dyno curves. The real question is what do the dyno curves for the base Fiat 124 and Abarth (two different tunes of the same engine/turbo combination) look like? We'll know in a few months!

Winoman
03-07-2016, 01:13 AM
Rumor is 190 hp for the USA version, but that's a single data point on the dyno curves. The real question is what do the dyno curves for the base Fiat 124 and Abarth (two different tunes of the same engine/turbo combination) look like? We'll know in a few months!

Yeah - so many get carried away with peak hp #s when what really matters is the area under the curve. Both the 124 & ultimately the abarth with their turbos should provide quite a bit more oomph that what one will get with a normally aspirated ND. Still - I want more....lol

TheDan
03-08-2016, 05:05 PM
If one really wants the rally version they should just buy the Alpha 4cThat doesn't make any sense. The 4c and rally version of the 124 are completely different animals. I would not want to even gently drive my 4c down a dirt road for instance. Obviously no one will be daily driving a rally 124. Well someone might, but that would be rather masochistic sillylol

Winoman
03-08-2016, 07:37 PM
That doesn't make any sense. The 4c and rally version of the 124 are completely different animals. I would not want to even gently drive my 4c down a dirt road for instance. Obviously no one will be daily driving a rally 124. Well someone might, but that would be rather masochistic sillylol

OK point taken. But my point was more the latter (part of your post) rather than considering that someone here was actually interested in the rally 124 for the purpose of rallying per se...

Amacento
03-08-2016, 10:55 PM
If one really wants the rally version they should just buy the Alpha 4c (and save perhaps $50K+)....so no the rally car is really not what your looking for (check out interior pics for instance). Still Abarth should be able to do well better than 170 hp. Even 200hp is a minimum threshold IMO - with 230-240 being more about right (for paying the premium this car will garner and to be competitive in the segment IMO). Perhaps a street version of the 124 Abarth will appear one day with the 1.7 L....maybe in a few years when I'll be in the market....here's to hoping Fiat will do the right thing with this car....
With all due respect...

1) The 4C is not designed/built to rally AND the A124 Rally kills it base-to-base (weight and power among other things). I lust after the 4C, but these are two completely different beauties. The A124 Rally is 300hp in a car that weighs 2300 lbs is gonna feel insane… then, there's the fact it's dialed to rumble. The A124 Rally is priced for and set apart for race teams.

2) Again… you're considering the power without factoring in the weight. 190-200hp stock for a car this weight will feel crazy. The increased power in the Multi-Air II (this is the new generation of our motors) is another thing to consider in relation to weight. Even the 170hp, compared to what ABARTHisti are accustomed to in the EU market is packing a punch (again, the weight-to-power ratio). There's more to a fast car than ponies.

3) What better options exist in the same segment (weight-to-power space and price point) as the A124?

4) The fact FIAT, while still feeling their way into the NA market, had the testicular fortitude to introduce the 124 Spider-A124 Spider-A124 Rally is most definitely doing the right thing.

Winoman
03-09-2016, 12:07 AM
1) The 4C is not designed/built to rally AND the A124 Rally kills it base-to-base (weight and power among other things). I lust after the 4C, but these are two completely different beauties. The A124 Rally is 300hp in a car that weighs 2300 lbs is gonna feel insane… then, there's the fact it's dialed to rumble. The A124 Rally is priced for and set apart for race teams.

Perhaps I was mistaken and the poster who was wishing for the A124 Rally was in fact interested in it as a vehicle for his race team...but I interpreted his interest as wishing for a car to drive on the street. So it seemed to me the car he really might be interested in is the Alpha...though I suppose in the $100+ range that the Rally might garner there are other options to consider.


2) Again… you're considering the power without factoring in the weight. 190-200hp stock for a car this weight will feel crazy. The increased power in the Multi-Air II (this is the new generation of our motors) is another thing to consider in relation to weight. Even the 170hp, compared to what ABARTHisti are accustomed to in the EU market is packing a punch (again, the weight-to-power ratio). There's more to a fast car than ponies.

I agree that there is more to a fast car than ponies and that great handling means as much or more for real drivers....and I understand that 170hp with some decent torque will make a car of the weight of the 124 decently quick and it will certainly be a fun car - no doubt....but if the published 0-60 (or possibly it was 0-100 km?) at 6.8 sec is true - well that really isn't so fast at all these days. It might be sufficient for some - but not for me...not for what I would want in a supposedly premium sport edition of a car that supposedly is a performer and that will command a premium over the base model. That's just me and my view (WRT my expectations) - not speaking for anyone else.


3) What better options exist in the same segment (weight-to-power space and price point) as the A124?

There are all kinds of options really. Lots of companies are making really nice and relatively affordable cars these days (that will handle quite well and do better than 6.8 sec 0-60)...some of the smaller Hondas about to be released as well as Subaru...and heck I'm driving a 400hp+ Volkswagen GTI that will carve the twisties as well as most any car - and much much better than most (OK with lots of aftermarket help...but its amazing how affordable it all was for a real supercar beater....)



4) The fact FIAT, while still feeling their way into the NA market, had the testicular fortitude to introduce the 124 Spider-A124 Spider-A124 Rally is most definitely doing the right thing.

I completely agree....and am still very excited about this car and applaud what Fiat has done/is doing....still (for me) I'm looking for more performance in their premium Abarth model. I'm still willing to wait and see and am hoping to be pleasantly surprised. Its still the top of my list for a next vehicle (still a few years down the road)....so we'll just have to see (but maybe a used Porsche boxster S will be the car for me....again we'll have to see. I'd rather have something a little more unique and special...)

Amacento
03-09-2016, 09:23 AM
Would you be kind enough to list the brand new spiders/roadsters at or under $40k? I don't know of many competing with the A124. 0-60 @ 6.8 is for the 170hp version… that is equivalent to the NA A500. You keep forgetting these numbers are for the EU version. It will be equivalent (in numbers) to their A500 EsseEsse… a special performance package and then some. The A124 Rally is the only global version. A similarly factory outfitted 4C would cost a lot more than the LE 4C.

I'm stoked to see FIAT had three versions of the 124 available simultaneously. It bodes well for the real life experience of all three.

Thanks for your feedback.

Fiat500USA
03-09-2016, 04:25 PM
That's a good point made about it being European specs. It is a totally different market, with different expectations. Remember, the 500 comes with a 69 hp engine that is considered fine. Even the base Abarth 500 Custom has just 135 hp. So 170 hp is quite sufficient in Europe.

Having said that, we have different driving conditions and expectations, too, and it's perfectly reasonable to expect more horsepower here. Our driving conditions and market really do make a good argument for it.

How much horsepower? Well, 200hp would put the 1.4 MultiAir Turbo at around 142 hp/liter which is a really high specific output, especially compared to the around 121 hp/liter the standard engine has. By comparison, the 240hp 1750 Turbo Benzina with direct injection engine used in various Alfas has a specific output of about 135 hp/liter. However, I did hear Olivier Francois tell someone that the our engine in the standard Spider makes a "very easy 170 hp" so maybe it's not such a stretch. What we get will be very interesting to see indeed. The answers may be coming soon...

Here are a couple of specific outputs of some other cars for comparison:

With a specific power output of 117 bhp/L, the 1.4 L MultiAir turbo installed in the 500 Abarth sports one of the highest specific outputs in its segments beating the 114 bhp/L for the Mazda Speed 2, 113 bhp/L for the MINI S and 100 bhp/L in the VW GTI.

Winoman
03-09-2016, 08:39 PM
The new (upcoming) Honda S2000 comes immediately to mind. Prices not yet set - but the base model is thought to have approx. 175 hp with a Type R version having 300 hp. So how's that for a start?

Winoman
03-09-2016, 08:55 PM
And while they're not 2 seaters - I would argue that the mini convertible and the Volkswagen Beetle & Eos convertibles might merit consideration in this segment. Additionally, one might consider a used Boxster/Boxster S, BMW Z3 (particularly the M versions), the older S2000 (fantastic roadster) and of course the Miata itself (with numerous examples of supercharging/turbocharging and engine swapping over the years that makes it quite a performer). There is of course also the Nissan 370Z convertible (though I'm not a big fan myself...to heavy for what its supposed to be IMO).

Winoman
03-09-2016, 08:59 PM
Well - with a few mods (mostly larger turbo - but other stuff too) I'm getting approx. 420 hp out of my 2 L GTI engine...and turnkey kits have just been released by APR for the MKVII GTI that promise 520 hp out of the new 2L engine....all surpassing 220hp/L....so its certainly possible. My GTI has 90K+ miles on it (of much hard driving) and has been stage III since approx. 30K miles....and has been extremely reliable....

Winoman
03-09-2016, 09:03 PM
My all time favorite Miata (250 + hp from the 2 liter and great handling to boot)....(this is what I want!!!)

http://jalopnik.com/the-super20-is-the-mazda-miata-you-have-always-wanted-1101845033

Check it out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2955gzlg17s

Amacento
03-09-2016, 09:08 PM
And while they're not 2 seaters - I would argue that the mini convertible and the Volkswagen Beetle & Eos convertibles might merit consideration in this segment. Additionally, one might consider a used Boxster/Boxster S, BMW Z3 (particularly the M versions), the older S2000 (fantastic roadster) and of course the Miata itself (with numerous examples of supercharging/turbocharging and engine swapping over the years that makes it quite a performer). There is of course also the Nissan 370Z convertible (though I'm not a big fan myself...to heavy for what its supposed to be IMO).
'Not a spider… not in the segment. That's that.

The Miata isn't at the power-to-weight ratio of the standard 124 Spider.

The rumored Honda S2000 is not only not a fact yet… the rumors claim it could cost $60k base (more than the A124). The hp is speculated, because of the F1 Honda tech. Um… how many GPs did Honda-powered cars finish in 2015? I'm gonna pay a premium for an unproven power train. I think you can guess what I think of that.

In the end, that's one other car in the segment. The Miata. The 124 trumps that car. I did specify new cars in this segment.

morrisg
03-09-2016, 09:52 PM
I have previously posted a dyno of a 1.4L MultiAir turbo tune that was 184 lb-ft from 2500 to 4000 rpm. It's from 2008. Since there have been improvements to turbos since 2008, and the engine has been turned 90 degrees for rear wheel drive with changes in the exhaust manifold for the Fiat 124, and the intercooler piping has been shortened for a single front mount rather than the Fiat 500 dual side mount intercoolers, and new strategies to control the MultiAir valves (timing, multiple openings, etc) have been developed, it is fair to say that a newer tune for this engine should develop more power. How much power isn't known by the public at this time.

But we do know that the base Fiat 124 tune reaches 160 hp and 184 lb-ft as given in the specs released last November. So what does it take to bring the base 124 engine tune up to 190 hp for an Abarth? It takes about 28 lb-ft of added torque at 5500 rpm to reach 190 hp, or about 18% more torque at this rpm. Then I checked 4500 rpm and the torque to hit 190 hp must go from 171 lb-ft up to 222 lb-ft, or almost 50 lb-ft which is almost 30% more! At 5000 rpm, the torque must jump from 163 lb-ft up to 200 lb-ft, or 37 lb-ft which is almost 23% more.

I think these are unrealistically high gains to expect from the Abarth tune. So my conclusion is that effort was concentrated on gains in the higher rpm band and that 15% to 20% gains have been found in torque up that high. This puts the peak horsepower realized in the neighborhood of 190 hp. There may also be gains lower in the rpm band, but I wouldn't expect them to be much more than 5% to 10%. Just my educated guessing, no inside info here.

Here's the dyno:
http://www.fiat500usaforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=21206&stc=1

Winoman
03-09-2016, 11:46 PM
Thanks morrisg - fascinating info and gives us a basis for considering what we might expect from the 1.4L in the 124 Abarth. I really don't know much specifically about this engine really....but one way to get more power certainly could be by going with a larger turbo and doing other tweaks to upgrade flow through the engine and exhaust. This is what I've done with both my GTI & S4....to great effect. Again. I don't know this engine and what might be possible - how maxed out it might already be and if it can handle more....just sayin...

Winoman
03-09-2016, 11:55 PM
Amacento - agreed we'll have to see with the Honda...but if they deliver (and are able to price it well....as Honda has done before)...well the Fiat effort....nice but not fantastic....may just well not be good enough. Its already not good enough for some (me for instance)....at least its starting to look that way. Again though - I will reserve final judgment until the car is actually released and I get to drive it. And you may narrow your field to only spiders and only new cars....but the buying public (myself included) has no such mandatory restrictions in place. And its not as if Fiat is a brand that the masses (at least here in the states) are already clamoring for. They need to step out and be noticed - as clearly better than what one is otherwise going to get with more recognizable (and already desired) brands here in the states. This is just reality. One can make a good (but not great) effort and fail miserably...I don't really think Fiat has the luxury to just rest on its (pretty nonexistent) laurels at this point in time - certainly not in the US market where they are pretty much a non-factor at this point.

Fiat500USA
03-10-2016, 12:06 AM
I asked Enrico Genchi about the tuning and he said it is different to make the car more revvy like a traditional sports car.


http://youtu.be/Bdf6RjcsgNU

While it is common in the aftermarket to hear about huge increases in power, the OEM has to be concerned with durability and maintaining emissions for tens of thousands of miles, etc. We could even speculate there may be some kind of an agreement with Mazda about how much power this competitive product may have.

I think the good thing going for it is the car started out being an Alfa Romeo product, so there is still hope that the 1750 may still be a plausible option.

SeaDawg
03-10-2016, 03:30 AM
It would have been nice if they'd offered it in the dark green of the mid '70's with the camel/caramel interior. Of course, now I can get it in the same color (Meteor Gray) as my Mazda CX3 for a matching pair, but not as exciting as the blue with the camel/caramel interior. 8-)

Terry
03-10-2016, 10:31 AM
It would have been nice if they'd offered it in the dark green of the mid '70's with the camel/caramel interior. Of course, now I can get it in the same color (Meteor Gray) as my Mazda CX3 for a matching pair, but not as exciting as the blue with the camel/caramel interior. 8-)

Right you are, Seadawg---Can't beat dark green with brown/caramel interior...

Amacento
03-10-2016, 11:51 AM
Amacento - agreed we'll have to see with the Honda...but if they deliver (and are able to price it well....as Honda has done before)...well the Fiat effort....nice but not fantastic....may just well not be good enough. Its already not good enough for some (me for instance)....at least its starting to look that way. Again though - I will reserve final judgment until the car is actually released and I get to drive it. And you may narrow your field to only spiders and only new cars....but the buying public (myself included) has no such mandatory restrictions in place. And its not as if Fiat is a brand that the masses (at least here in the states) are already clamoring for. They need to step out and be noticed - as clearly better than what one is otherwise going to get with more recognizable (and already desired) brands here in the states. This is just reality. One can make a good (but not great) effort and fail miserably...I don't really think Fiat has the luxury to just rest on its (pretty nonexistent) laurels at this point in time - certainly not in the US market where they are pretty much a non-factor at this point.
"The masses" shop 2-seat spiders against coupes 4-seaters? That, sir, is news to me.

Spiders are a niche and that niche is discerning. In all my conversations with spider aficionados, I've never heard "but it doesn't have enough hp for me" come into the conversation. The original 124 is a cult classic. The update will likely be judged most critically by that crowd. FIAT knows this... it's in all their press releases.

FIAT ads stand out. FIAT designs stand out. I don't see any spiders in your stable... and fail to read your reasoning.

Thanks.

TheDan
03-10-2016, 01:48 PM
I've never heard "but it doesn't have enough hp for me" come into the conversation.Well I've said it before, but it is only one con to many pros. The only thing you can really compare a spider to is other lightweight, RWD open top cars. Even open top FWD cars aren't a valid comparison.

Winoman
03-11-2016, 12:06 AM
"The masses" shop 2-seat spiders against coupes 4-seaters? That, sir, is news to me.

Spiders are a niche and that niche is discerning. In all my conversations with spider aficionados, I've never heard "but it doesn't have enough hp for me" come into the conversation. The original 124 is a cult classic. The update will likely be judged most critically by that crowd. FIAT knows this... it's in all their press releases.

FIAT ads stand out. FIAT designs stand out. I don't see any spiders in your stable... and fail to read your reasoning.

Thanks.

Well perhaps if Fiat is happy to sell cars to folks who have only owned Fiats before they and you will be satisfied. We'll just have to see how that turns out.

BTW - I owned and drove an original 1989 supercharged MR2 for many years (130K miles or so worth) - until having 2 kids made it an impractical car for us (at least my wife thought so). Sold it to my neighbor who still drives it. I've been a long time fan of small open top (and RWD) cars. This is why I'm interested in one day owning another.

Sure ultimate HP numbers don't automatically make a car enjoyable to drive or one that I must have or even want to own - I understand this. But I'm also a performance enthusiast - so all around performance - including the ability to really go - is something I'm looking for. The original S2000 was such a car. The M version of the Z3 was such a car....and numerous tweaked Miatas are such cars...and its not terribly hard to do.

The 124 and the 124 Abarth will certainly be such cars - but I'm not quite sure the Abarth will quite live up to my (reasonable) expectations. Again, we'll have to see it when it is fully realized and available. Maybe I'll feel differently. I certainly want to. But when many Miata owners over the years have added small turbos or superchargers and with some minor handling improvements clearly seem to outdo what Fiat plans for its performance version of a Spyder and when Fiat seems as it will ask a premium price for it...well I just feel they could do better.

And all my cars are fun (to drive) cars....and I very much enjoy driving them proactively....no worries there.

And Fiat ads? really now.. Fiat designs....well kudos for teaming up with Mazda that has really done an excellent job with this current generation Miata. (BTW - my eldest owns a first gen Miata that I sometimes work on with him and drive on occasion. So I'm not totally out of the loop).

Winoman
03-11-2016, 12:29 AM
I've been interested in getting back into a 2 seat open top performance car for some years now (looking to the future....as don't intend to purchase one for perhaps at least another2years or so). But I always research my vehicles and am interested in the right car for me. So I've been following Porsche's plans at introducing an entry level Boxster with a 4 cylinder turbo. When they first were discussing this perhaps 2-3 years a they were talking a "baby" boxster - "entry" level (for Porsche) - slightly smaller than the current car - targeting the $40K price point - no frills - manual top etc etc - with talk of around 250 hp. I was very excited and thought - just the car for me. Last year the head of Porsche announced there would be no such car - and that folks looking for an entry level Porsche could just buy a used one. Well - suffice to say I was very let down. Then I found out about Fiats plans for the 124 - and the idea of a performance Abarth version....talk was of better handling and perhaps 200-240 hp....so I immediately switched my interest to this car (having always loved the Spyders of old). Well 170 hp and 6.8 0-60 etc....even with all the admitted good stuff (Brembo brakes and tightened suspension etc).....disappointed to say the least. I'm not looking for a Hellcat or even a Jaguar F type per se...but really now. I'd at least like it to be quicker than your average mini-van. I'm sure it will be a very enjoyable car to drive (the way I like to - through the twistys)...and it certainly looks great (kudos to Fiat for that)....but if I can buy an ND Miata - slap a turbo on it, add my own Brembos and coilovers and such....and have a much quicker car that handles just as well.....for perhaps $10-15K savings.....well it will be hard for me to spring for the Fiat. Great ads just aren't enough. That's where I'm coming from and I feel that my reasoning is sound. Why am I wrong?

Winoman
03-11-2016, 12:37 AM
Well I've said it before, but it is only one con to many pros. The only thing you can really compare a spider to is other lightweight, RWD open top cars. Even open top FWD cars aren't a valid comparison.

I fully understand the desire and rational for a RWD car in this category - very much so. But it is really amazing how well some front wheel drive cars handle these days. My GTI not only grips the road like a cat - but I've actually managed to tweak it to exhibit oversteer in cornering....I've never had an understeer moment with it. Its amazing really. Still - not like my MR2 with soft compound semi slicks - I could enter a 90 deg at 70 mph - turn hard at the last minute - the rear end would skip once or twice until grip was re-established and I could power down (with the engine over the rear wheels) and just go. Only down side was that I would frequently lose items on my (small little) dash - that would keep going straight - right out the window.....lost several cassette tapes that way.....sigh...

Amacento
03-11-2016, 11:16 AM
Well perhaps if Fiat is happy to sell cars to folks who have only owned Fiats before they and you will be satisfied. We'll just have to see how that turns out.

Again, we'll have to see it when it is fully realized and available. Maybe I'll feel differently. I certainly want to. But when many Miata owners over the years have added small turbos or superchargers and with some minor handling improvements clearly seem to outdo what Fiat plans for its performance version of a Spyder and when Fiat seems as it will ask a premium price for it...well I just feel they could do better.

And all my cars are fun (to drive) cars....and I very much enjoy driving them proactively....no worries there.

And Fiat ads? really now.. Fiat designs....well kudos for teaming up with Mazda that has really done an excellent job with this current generation Miata. (BTW - my eldest owns a first gen Miata that I sometimes work on with him and drive on occasion. So I'm not totally out of the loop).
Then, you know all modern Mazdas owe their heritage to under-powered Italian engineering & design. Datsun/Nissan... also owe their existence to Italian & German cars.

The first Honda was a spider/roadster... based upon the FIAT 1200 Spider.

The first Mitsubishi was a rebadged FIAT.

Finally, and what happens when enthusiasts begin modding their 2nd gen MultiAirs?

Again, I've never heard any owners of vintage FIAT Spiders complain about power... never. They're plenty of fun and the primary reason there is a modern 124 to debate. respect to those folks for keeping the faith.

Winoman
03-11-2016, 02:36 PM
Yes I fully understand the heritage of the Miata and have followed it since its inception (and I'm familiar with the early Datsuns as well). I'm into these kinds of cars....but of course back in the day (60s-70s) when roadsters were all low powered - so too were most other cars (compared to today). The (at least straight line) performance of many Ferraris, Porsches and even many Muscle cars of the day is barely equivalent to modern day mass sedans like the Accord, Camry and even Kias etc....so yeah - to be considered a performance car - the 124 Abarth needs to compare favorably - if Fiat really wants to sell any....at least that's how I see it - particularly when there are many other (very decent) options available - even if they are not strictly in the exact same class of car. Many do niche comparisons and now exactly what they want....many more compare across a wide range of vehicles - and like it or not - pure horsepower and straight line performance figures do influence perceptions and choices. Anyway I would really like this car to be a success - and I think the standard 124 is right on for what it is supposed to be. For me though - even if I'm not looking for the highest performance car possible per se - Its not a muscle car - I understand that...but I do want more (than what Fiat/Abarth seems to be offering). And again I believe my reasons are sound for this and I suspect many others may see it the same way.

Amacento
03-11-2016, 11:04 PM
Yes I fully understand the heritage of the Miata and have followed it since its inception (and I'm familiar with the early Datsuns as well). I'm into these kinds of cars....but of course back in the day (60s-70s) when roadsters were all low powered - so too were most other cars (compared to today). The (at least straight line) performance of many Ferraris, Porsches and even many Muscle cars of the day is barely equivalent to modern day mass sedans like the Accord, Camry and even Kias etc....so yeah - to be considered a performance car - the 124 Abarth needs to compare favorably - if Fiat really wants to sell any....at least that's how I see it - particularly when there are many other (very decent) options available - even if they are not strictly in the exact same class of car. Many do niche comparisons and now exactly what they want....many more compare across a wide range of vehicles - and like it or not - pure horsepower and straight line performance figures do influence perceptions and choices. Anyway I would really like this car to be a success - and I think the standard 124 is right on for what it is supposed to be. For me though - even if I'm not looking for the highest performance car possible per se - Its not a muscle car - I understand that...but I do want more (than what Fiat/Abarth seems to be offering). And again I believe my reasons are sound for this and I suspect many others may see it the same way.
A straight line is, perhaps, the worst measurement for true performance (as are left turn only tracks)… especially a made for back roads Italian Spider. I suspect many other motoring enthusiasts may see that the same way.

Winoman
03-12-2016, 01:31 AM
A straight line is, perhaps, the worst measurement for true performance (as are left turn only tracks)… especially a made for back roads Italian Spider. I suspect many other motoring enthusiasts may see that the same way.

If only they did....many really haven't a clue. I fully agree that performance is as much related to handling as it is to pure speed and power. Both is best of course. I also agree with you about oval tracks. yawn.

morrisg
03-12-2016, 04:57 PM
Wow, two people who can respectfully disagree with each other without name calling or taunting! Kudos to you both! So much nicer than what I've been seeing on miata.net recently.

Thanks to you both!!!

Winoman
03-12-2016, 11:27 PM
Morrisg - Amacento and I probably agree with each other more than we (may seem to) disagree. I fully respect his opinions and what he has posted here. No worries. I'm still overjoyed with the idea of Fiat reintroducing the 124 - and the ND Miata platform is a great place to start. Perhaps they will up the power of the 124 Abarth a bit - if not initially then at some point. If they did - I really think they have an opportunity to make some major waves with this car. Regardless - I do understand the point that a spyder/roadster is a bit of a niche and just doesn't fit what many are looking for in a car (not enough cup holders)...but I do hope they can make it work. I was very excited back in 1990 when Miata re-introduced the roadster to am American market that as I recall was hardly even offering a decent convertible. Fun was out (luckily I had already managed to get my MR2 which was gobs of fun)....but fun is back - not just with smaller fun cars but in all sorts of categories - depending on what one is looking for. I do agree though - and always have - that small, nimble and quick beats a big heavy thing (for fun factor) - no matter the horsepower....even if folks seems to have a fixation for such. Again though - I've gotten used to a certain amount of get up and go - so I expect to at least be in the ballpark with my next vehicle. That's just my perspective.

morrisg
03-13-2016, 01:58 AM
I understand completely. When I purchased a 2009 Miata, I couldn't leave it alone and prepared it for Street Touring Roadster autocross competition while keeping it as my daily driver. The car was hugely more fun with 190+ hp and a competition suspension, while still being comfortable for the street. But the 124 is calling me and I'm looking at aftermarket tunes that have achieved 225+ hp on 2013 Abarth 500 engines (the same basic engine as the 124). No tunes are available on post 2013 models, but the potential for such gains is enough to put me in line for a 124 as soon as pricing and availability are announced.

Fiat500USA
03-13-2016, 09:57 AM
I think the fact the car has a Turbo, and the ability to easily upgrade the horsepower will bring bring a lot of enthusiasts to the Fiat. It may even turn out to be the preferered platform for those looking for all out performance. This is getting exciting!

Amacento
03-13-2016, 04:14 PM
Morrisg - Amacento and I probably agree with each other more than we (may seem to) disagree. I fully respect his opinions and what he has posted here. No worries. I'm still overjoyed with the idea of Fiat reintroducing the 124...
Hear-hear!

It's easy to peacefully debate a subject when the focus is ego free. In this case, we have two enthusiastic individuals with slightly differing POVs. Variety is tastes & opinions is a good thing. Car Culture is on a definite rise… and FIAT-ABARTH is leading the way. In addition to the A124 and A124 Rally, they've revealed the A595 OT. Yes, please.

TheDan
03-13-2016, 08:54 PM
Fun was out ....but fun is back
This is getting exciting!ThrashinSmiley