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slowbird
05-27-2015, 06:59 AM
Can anyone help me by taking a picture of the backing of the factory front brake pads for the Abarth please?

I am corresponding with a tech from EBC about the melty, crappy performance issues some of us are facing with the EBC Redstuff pads.

He is asking for the "friction rating designation printed on the back of the pads".

Also if anyone has any pictures of unusual wear or melty EBC pads can you post them here so I can forward them to the EBC tech.

Please and thank you. :smile:

BigDaddySRT
05-27-2015, 07:13 AM
Can anyone help me by taking a picture of the backing of the factory front brake pads for the Abarth please?

I am corresponding with a tech from EBC about the melty, crappy performance issues some of us are facing with the EBC Redstuff pads.

He is asking for the "friction rating designation printed on the back of the pads".

Also if anyone has any pictures of unusual wear or melty EBC pads can you post them here so I can forward them to the EBC tech.

Please and thank you. :smile:

When I get to the house this afternoon I can check the back of my stock OEM Front Pads.

I've been running EBC Redstuff Pads for over 12K Miles, and I drive my car very hard on a daily basis and autocross monthly.
No Issues or concerns ever with my set-up.

slowbird
05-27-2015, 07:34 AM
When I get to the house this afternoon I can check the back of my stock OEM Front Pads.

I've been running EBC Redstuff Pads for over 12K Miles, and I drive my car very hard on a daily basis and autocross monthly.
No Issues or concerns ever with my set-up.

I really appreciate the offer to check the back of the factory pads and sharing your experience with your redstuff pads.

Much thanks!

slowbird
05-27-2015, 10:03 AM
One of the members on the black forum posted this:

18052

So I think I'm good to go. Factory pads look like they have the FF friction rating. I've sent it to the EBC tech to see what he says.

Davothegr8
05-29-2015, 09:43 PM
My EBC reds suck too. 5 good braking corners, they are smoking and no more brakes at all!!

Trunkout
05-29-2015, 10:01 PM
My EBC reds suck too. 5 good braking corners, they are smoking and no more brakes at all!!

see that sucks because I want to get those to cut the build up on my white rims!
what's another low dust option?

slowbird
05-29-2015, 10:05 PM
My EBC reds suck too. 5 good braking corners, they are smoking and no more brakes at all!!


I'm still corresponding with the EBC tech but what I'm gathering is that our factory pads are a FF friction rating, which is pretty good.

EBC says the going to yellows from an FF pad will be a big difference so reds are probably on par with factory FF pads if not worse.

Everyday driving seems fine with reds but repeated heavy braking and heat cycles eat them up.

Even the tech said the ceramic compound of the redstuff pads isn't suitable for that kinda thing.

Purgatory
05-29-2015, 10:16 PM
they sure don't mind advertising them to people that they are performance pads, glad I never bought any. got to be some better options. I am still on stock pads, 14k plus miles, and they are still as strong as when I got the car, with lots of spirited driving and braking in the mountains here.

Tweak
05-29-2015, 10:50 PM
I switched to EBC reds and every drive is beyond what you'd call spirited I assure you. I also go to the FOTD events and flog the car through the mountains and had no issues with mine (luckily).

msjulie33
05-30-2015, 12:32 AM
I switched to EBC reds and every drive is beyond what you'd call spirited I assure you. I also go to the FOTD events and flog the car through the mountains and had no issues with mine (luckily).

No problem at all on the street and though not dustless, not too bad... I think prolonged track abuse is more than they were designed for...

Tweak
05-30-2015, 09:04 AM
No problem at all on the street and though not dustless, not too bad... I think prolonged track abuse is more than they were designed for...

Runs at the Dragon are as bad if not worse than a track day and around town they see a little abuse but it is fairly well spaced. :)

msjulie33
05-30-2015, 11:10 AM
Well it's been a long time since I was on the Dragon and no offense but I think the track is more brutal ;) Less rules and rule-enforcers :)

Abarth brakes are generally good but everything has a limit of course

Gharbeson
05-30-2015, 11:52 AM
Well it's been a long time since I was on the Dragon and no offense but I think the track is more brutal ;) Less rules and rule-enforcers :)

Abarth brakes are generally good but everything has a limit of course

Agree with you. Several laps on the track is pretty hard on pads hence their replacement every race for most drivers. I was lucky enough to get two sets of Hawk pads that were prototypes for the Perreli Challenge Fiats from a PC Fiat that was at our track garage ( where I copied my suspension set up from). Anyhow, the race series is dead and Hawk doesn't make pads for Fiat. I'm looking for some new pads. The EBC Red pads aren't up to the job. Other pads that look ok are the Torx from Italy and actually the OE pads would work as a last resort. Does EBC have any other (better) level pad that will work. Is the EBC Yellow available for Fiat? Thanks

Davothegr8
05-30-2015, 12:05 PM
Runs at the Dragon are as bad if not worse than a track day and around town they see a little abuse but it is fairly well spaced. :)

Negative Ghost Rider. Coming from a motorcycle racing background, track days are harder on equipment than street riding. Plus Ive seen your video. It's not hard to make some tires squeel on a set of all season tires but I didnt see any serious braking, as well as you shouldnt on a busy road like the dragon where squids think its a right of passage.

EBC reds are worse than OEM pads as far as performance. Mine took forever to stop throwing so much dust. Honestly when I had my Smart car, granted I wasnt pushing it so performance aside, but cheap ceramic Oreilly pads offered far less dusting.

slowbird
05-30-2015, 07:45 PM
I can't see any EBC Yellowstuff or Blues listed for our cars. I have asked the EBC tech to confirm that.

Like Gharbeson mentioned....no Hawks for our cars neither.

I think my EBC Reds are almost done now anyways. That's after 1 trackday (well...half a day. Had to stop cause I had no brakes left) and about 5,000kms daily driving.

If I can't find anything decent to install I'll have to dish out $150 for a set of factory pads. :confusion:

Tweak
05-30-2015, 09:30 PM
I easily smoked (literally) stock pads and had some fade but with the reds on the same roads I had no issues so I'm happy (for now) with them. As for the comment about the Dragon vs track I have watched a lot of track day runs but not driven them as it doesn't interest me personally. The reason that I said it is as bad and maybe in some ways worse (depends on the driver) is from what I have seen track runs are short with stabs at the brakes but some of the people I have seen on the Dragon lay in the brakes for long periods throughout an entire day. I just figure that hours of staying on them is about as bad as quick stabs through some quick runs. I wasn't saying it as a definitive comment but my thoughts on what I have seen only. For me for now the EBC reds are at least doing as good as my stock pads and in the last trip a little better it seems. That may change quickly as the miles add up of course!

Thanks for the experienced track people for the clarification and education, always willing to learn of course. :)

Robert Nixon
05-31-2015, 10:55 AM
Hard to compare, but if say an average track session is 20 minutes, that will include hard braking down from say 90mph in addition to other braking. Then multiply by about 4 runs per day like at a NASA HPDE event, then repeat two days in a row over a weekend, and I don't know how you compare that with twisty mountain roads. What's the top speed on the Dragon?

I'll guess that both will wear brakes more than every day driving!

abarth500caz
05-31-2015, 06:35 PM
Has anyone tried these pads? COBALT FRICTION XR4 CARBON CERAMIC RACE PADS It is about time for me to change my pads.

slowbird
05-31-2015, 06:40 PM
I've ridden on my bike on the Dragon...but never a car.

I've been on a track with my car...but never my bike.

Depending on the track it's hard to gauge what is worse punishment than the other. On my past track day, on the straightest/longest portions I was doing over 130kph/80mph. (I never looked at the speedo...but that's where I set my speed warning buzzer to go off) That's WOT top of 3rd then straight on the brakes (Tires protesting the entire time, on the threshold of ABS) for either a tight 90 or chicane. Add all the other turns and multiply that by 15 minutes a session....and about 5 sessions in the day.

Thinking back to the Dragon I'd say the track is a bit more punishing on the brakes.

I've watched some of the FOTD videos...haven't seen anything come close to flogging it on a track.

slowbird
05-31-2015, 06:41 PM
Has anyone tried these pads? COBALT FRICTION XR4 CARBON CERAMIC RACE PADS It is about time for me to change my pads.

My Redstuff are already in need of changing and I've thought of those but it seems pricey.

Gigante
05-31-2015, 08:32 PM
Has anyone tried these pads? COBALT FRICTION XR4 CARBON CERAMIC RACE PADS It is about time for me to change my pads.

Hello Abarth500caz, I have a set of the COBALT XR4's on my car. I went to them after two track day sessions where my pads finally gave way. I will say the OEM pad performed brilliantly and I was quite impressed. Like you, I wanted to try something different and I looked around and found these through EuroCompulsion.

These pads are amazing and do not require any break in period (bedding) and they provide MONSTER grip of the caliper. When cold they are squeaky (noisy) but still stop like they are warmed up. Also, they create more dust than you can ever imagine.

The flip side is these pads will stop your car like never before and they will chew up your rotors in the process - they truly do work. These are not for the faint at hart as they will be disappointed. If you want performance and gain the most from your OEM rotors and calipers these are the pads for you. Add this with some DOT4 HP fluid and you will be set.

My local track is a 3rd - 4th road course (5th if you can exit the last turn fast enough before the straight) and you are hard on the brakes between 115 - 120 MPH at the end of the straightaway.

If you purchase these XR4's I believe they will work for you quite well.

Thank you for your time and please let me know If I can be of any other assistance,

GIGANTE

http://i.imgur.com/SmIsekcl.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/o1IxsPsl.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/AxV9Umul.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/nM4T9ocl.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/9tbHuWcl.jpg

slowbird
05-31-2015, 10:32 PM
Thanks for the info on the XR4's Gigante! Very useful indeed!

Judging from the pictures they have a much larger contact surface than the EBC redstuffs do.

Though these seem a bit much for me...I guess I'm sticking with Factory pads.

Gigante
06-01-2015, 01:52 PM
Thanks for the info on the XR4's Gigante! Very useful indeed!

Judging from the pictures they have a much larger contact surface than the EBC redstuffs do.

Though these seem a bit much for me...I guess I'm sticking with Factory pads.

Your welcome Slowbird, The COBALTS XR4's are quite aggressive but do a great job. As I shared earlier, the OEM pads do a great job as well. I would recommend flushing the brake fluid and going to a DOT4, you'll be pleased with the results.

Have fun and be safe,
GIGANTE

PS - A side by side picture of the XR4 next to a worn OEM pad.
http://i.imgur.com/dI93CCeh.jpg

Abarth Fun
06-01-2015, 09:26 PM
Agree with you. Several laps on the track is pretty hard on pads hence their replacement every race for most drivers. I was lucky enough to get two sets of Hawk pads that were prototypes for the Perreli Challenge Fiats from a PC Fiat that was at our track garage ( where I copied my suspension set up from). Anyhow, the race series is dead and Hawk doesn't make pads for Fiat. I'm looking for some new pads. The EBC Red pads aren't up to the job. Other pads that look ok are the Torx from Italy and actually the OE pads would work as a last resort. Does EBC have any other (better) level pad that will work. Is the EBC Yellow available for Fiat? Thanks

I ordered (and should recieve shortly) EBC yellow pads, front and rear, for my Abarth from a British vendor called DC Performance. The part numbers are DP41383R (Front) and DP41338R (rear) per the DC Performance website.

Two issues: first, I'm not really sure that these are the proper size/shape pads since nobody I know has tried them and since they are not listed in the EBC catalog for our cars. Second, in spite of five HPDE days and several trips to the Dragon, my OEM pads are still working fine and still have wear left on them. So I don't know how soon I might replace them and try the yellows out. One thing I am hoping to do soon is to compare their dimensions to some stock pads to see if they conform.

Tweak
06-01-2015, 10:28 PM
Hard to compare, but if say an average track session is 20 minutes, that will include hard braking down from say 90mph in addition to other braking. Then multiply by about 4 runs per day like at a NASA HPDE event, then repeat two days in a row over a weekend, and I don't know how you compare that with twisty mountain roads. What's the top speed on the Dragon?

I'll guess that both will wear brakes more than every day driving!

I guess for some it could go either way. I say that because the videos are NOTHING like what you actually experience when on the Dragon. The videos are slow and boring and can't even offer a hint of the actual experience. I know there are times at the FOTD event in some areas...the Triangle more than the Dragon where speeds can hit over 80MPH. (Way over the posted speed suggestion...shhh). Then there are some that lay on the brakes for really long periods throughout hours of driving for 3-4 days. It'll come down to the type of driver and the traffic... I don't use my brakes too often when I am on my own but when I am in a group I have no choice because I don't wish to buy anyone a new bumper.

Both certainly a far more punishing than typical daily driving though. :)

Abarth Fun
06-02-2015, 05:31 AM
I've been at several tracks and at the Dragon twice. My assessment is this:

-Track days are harder on your car than the Dragon.
- The Dragon is more dangerous than HPDE days at a track.

If you went at the speeds and accelerations/deceleration at the Dragon that you did at most tracks, then when you made a mistake you would run into a tree, go off a hill, cross a centerline and hit a car, or some other potentially lethal result. On a track you can really push a car and yourself to its limit and have a good chance of coming home safely. There are run offs, safety barriers, flag stations, controlled access, and everyone is traveling in the same direction.

Note I'm not talking about racing, which I haven't done.

At any rate there are a lot of people here who have done both tracks and the Dragon, and the consensus is very consistent. The Dragon IS awesome, but it is also pretty dangerous. And yes, you can get your brakes hot at the Dragon. I did it the last time I was there. But if you want to flog your car, try some track days.

msjulie33
06-02-2015, 08:58 AM
I do agree a properly run HPDE is a better safer place to push your car to the limit but it's like one of those drug warning public service videos - the Dragon leads to track days leads to amateur racing leads to need $$$ :)

Tweak
06-02-2015, 10:18 AM
I should clarify that the racing I am speaking about is done in parking lots and there are no high speeds achieved during most of them. I apologize as I should have been cleared on what I was referring to earlier. No run offs, safety barriers and such. Again thank you to all that have offered input, always good to learn and understand these things. :)

slowbird
06-04-2015, 07:02 PM
So I have been corresponding back and forth with EBC.

So first thing, right off the bat, the EBC tech says the bubbling/melting paint that MsJulie experienced, and the bubbling/melting shim I experienced are of no concern. They say it shows that the pads have seen some intense heat but that is all.

From the tech:

"It looks like it's just the fiber anti squeal shim which isn't a concern as long as it's not deteriorating where the pads contact the caliper.....
....we use high temp paint but over 500F it can bubble and turn black. It doesn't indicate any issues other than the pads have seen high temperatures."

Here is the meat of the issue:

The factory Abarth brake pads and the EBC Redstuff pads both have a friction coefficient rating of FF. (i.e. D and E ratings are on the low friction end and G and H are on the high end.)
Even the factory rear pads for our cars are FF rated!

Because the Redstuff pads are "ceramic" they aren't really meant for track use. (However, for lighter vehicles such as ours, EBC say they should be ok for track use. But we, and now they, know they aren't.)

From the EBC tech:

"An FF code indicates the pads are a performance geared pad and have a friction coefficient between 0.35mu to 0.45mu. The higher the actual friction coefficient of the pad the better stopping power. The EBC RedStuff material also has an FF friction code and an actual friction coefficient of 0.40mu. My only assumption is the actual friction coefficient of the Fiat pads must be at the higher end of the FF scale, like 0.45mu."


So that seems to explain why some of us are experiencing on par, if not worse, braking performance than the stock pads. Maybe the stock pads are semi-metallic which would help as well with the heat.

The Redstuffs seem to be ok for a low dust, quiet, street pad, at about half the cost of the Factory pads. However, in my experience they aren't lasting as long as the factory pads. I went aprox 90,000kms/56,000miles on the factory pads (with Unichip/E+D test runs and a track day) and my Redstuff pads look like they may only last 10,000kms/6,200miles.
However, with street use they should last quite a bit.

I also showed them the difference between (factory and reds) the pad shape and design and they had this to say:


"Pad shape is different. EBC adds a center slot for degassing and chamfers the sides more to assist in lower noise levels. Nothing I can see here should cause any performance issues though."
So no problems there.

They also CC'd one of their Auto managers into our correspondence and they copied on a positive review they got from an Abarth owner named "Ed" who said the pads felt great. He was apparently the first person to run the EBC redstuffs before they went onsale.
I explained to them that the reviews on the forums are a mixed bag, and some of us are pushing a bit more power than others.

Some more great info from the EBC techs:


"I think a lot of your issues are stemming from the weight of these vehicles, the pads are not bedding in properly. I do think that you will see better performance out of the Greenstuff or Ultimax2 pads. Greenstuff pads are meant to be an upgrade for lighter vehicles."

The EBC tech is strongly recommending I try the Greenstuffs next. They think the Greenstuffs may be better for our cars as they are geared for lighter vehicles. The Greenstuff pads are FF rated but with a slightly lower temp range than the Redís. They say the Greens do have a better cold bite then the Reds.
I'm assuming they would be a street only option like the Reds.

The Ultimax2's are another option they mention. The Ultimax2 pads are considered an OE replacement pad because of their compound but they do have a GG friction rating.
They may be better suited for a track day.

Unfortunately they do not have any Yellowstuff pads for our application. Abarthfun....I hope yours fit our cars cause that would be great! But I asked the EBC manager specifically about Yellowstuffs and they said they weren't available for our cars. :fatigue:

That's where I sit currently with EBC.

Davothegr8
06-04-2015, 09:54 PM
How about the horrible brake fade?

slowbird
06-04-2015, 10:35 PM
How about the horrible brake fade?

With the EBC reds?

What about it?

msjulie33
06-05-2015, 10:10 AM
My questions would be - ok, fine the smoke etc was not to be worried about but like the other comment - because things got so hot, my car did have pretty bad brake fade. What about that?

Some was probably outgassing between pad and rotor but also cooking my brake fluid nicely - proven I'd say because I'm using those red pads on the street now after a complete fluid flush and the car brakes just fine. I cleaned up the burnt backing plate and rough edges and after some road time the brakes firmed up nicely.

About bedding the pads, could be but... I've bedded plenty of pads in before so I know the drill. Most difficult set was a pair of race Hawk pads that wanted me going to 105 and down which is not easy to do on the street...

I'd be curious how the other suggested pads handle the abuse of the track.

slowbird
06-05-2015, 06:11 PM
My questions would be - ok, fine the smoke etc was not to be worried about but like the other comment - because things got so hot, my car did have pretty bad brake fade. What about that?

The fade is most likely due to the excess buildup of heat caused by the fact that the redstuff pads are Ceramics and not rated for track use. Ceramic brake pads typically have lower friction coefficients (which EBC has confirmed the Redstuffs have a lower friction coefficient than the factory Abarth pads).

The Ceramic Redstuff pads acted as an insulator, raising rotor temperatures and probably boiling our brake fluid.



About bedding the pads, could be but... I've bedded plenty of pads in before so I know the drill. Most difficult set was a pair of race Hawk pads that wanted me going to 105 and down which is not easy to do on the street...


I am 100% with you there MsJulie. I followed the bed in procedure to the letter and they wouldn't improve. It looked to be like they weren't evenly bedding in which EBC has said can be a problem with certain European cars. They also said the Redstuffs might be difficult to bed in due to the lightweight of our cars. (probably a mix of the two issues hurt us)

That's why they are recommending the Greenstuffs as they are for lighter vehicles.



I'd be curious how the other suggested pads handle the abuse of the track.

Me too! Unfortunately it seems like the Greenstuffs have an even lower Friction coefficient than the Redstuffs so they may only be a street pad. However their Ultimax2 pads have a much higher Friction Coefficient than even our Factory Pads but I don't know anyone that has run them.

Davothegr8
06-05-2015, 10:22 PM
Hopefully someone else will come out with better pads. Ill never buy EBC pads again.

slowbird
06-18-2015, 02:18 AM
I came home the other day to find (to my great surprise) this package waiting for me:

18299

and inside:

18298

EBC was kind enough to send me a free, warrantied set of EBC Greenstuff pads after all our correspondence. They asked for my original sales receipt from EC so I sent it to them, but didn't realize my address was on it. I didn't ask for a free set but I was really hoping for it. :whistle:

I'm sick ATM so when I'm better I'll swap these pads on and report back. They look to be possible GG rated which means they'll fair better than factory OR the Reds.

Good to know EBC stands behind their customers. :)

I've always been a fan of EBC. If their stuff is good enough for my bike it's plenty fine for any car.

Davothegr8
06-18-2015, 05:49 PM
Keep us updated please.