PDA

View Full Version : big brake upgrade idea



ajkirton
04-28-2015, 10:36 PM
I was wondering if anyone has researched having a custom bracket machined to mount "Porsche" brake calipers on our stock rotors, or slightly upgraded rotors.

I had some made a few years ago for my 318ti that used porsche boxster 4 piston calipers with m3 rotors.

It turned out wonderful and was substantially cheaper than any of the brembo or comperable kits.

Just an idea. Maybe some of the vendors on here know something about a kit like this.

ajkirton
04-28-2015, 10:51 PM
Abarth brakes:

Ventilated front brake discs, diameter 284 x 22mm.
CII 34 floating rear calliper, 34mm diameter piston.
240mm diameter x 11mm rear brake disc.

ajkirton
04-28-2015, 10:52 PM
Boxster S rotors are 318x28 vs 298x24 for non S and 299x24 vs 299x20 rear

Seems feasible to run a porsche brembo rear caliper on the front of the abarth....

Tweak
04-28-2015, 11:00 PM
I was wondering if anyone has researched having a custom bracket machined to mount "Porsche" brake calipers on our stock rotors, or slightly upgraded rotors.

I had some made a few years ago for my 318ti that used porsche boxster 4 piston calipers with m3 rotors.

It turned out wonderful and was substantially cheaper than any of the brembo or comperable kits.

Just an idea. Maybe some of the vendors on here know something about a kit like this.

Talk to Ron/CPR/cyclone-33 as he might be able to figure out something like this for you (and eventually others).

shadowshaggy
04-28-2015, 11:10 PM
You would have better luck, just to be honest, with a local fan place as far as getting an initial set. You will have lots of down time or you'll have to get a hub/knuckle assembly that's spare so you have everything in hand.

ajkirton
04-28-2015, 11:12 PM
With a little hunting i could fimd awesome condition 986 cqlipers front (non s) for under $400 then if we could get the bracket made for $2-300 you are looking at a brembo upgrade for under $700

ajkirton
04-28-2015, 11:14 PM
I could pick up a hub / knuckle and stock rotor for pretty cheap and donate it for development if that would help. I couldbalso design a cnc file and shoit it to someone if they want to make some prototypes.

ajkirton
04-28-2015, 11:31 PM
http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af251/kirtonandrew/Mobile%20Uploads/2005-07/rear_caliper_adapter_zpspzjv8upk.jpg (http://s1013.photobucket.com/user/kirtonandrew/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2005-07/rear_caliper_adapter_zpspzjv8upk.jpg.html)

Just an idea. Seems pretty easy.

msjulie33
04-29-2015, 09:52 AM
How do you get the brake bias front<->rear set up with very different calipers? Different brake pad material? Perhaps for street doesn't matter too much?

shadowshaggy
04-29-2015, 10:20 AM
We don't have a valve like older cars, we have 4-channel ABS. So long as you use the ABS sensor/wheel speed sensor still, then it really wont matter. Its no different that the big brake kits from Wilwood or Brembo, just less expensive.

Davothegr8
04-29-2015, 02:19 PM
I like this idea. I always wondered what happen to AEM big brake kits that utilized the stock calipers but ran bigger rotors with a bracket for the calipers. I always liked that setup.

ajkirton
04-29-2015, 03:33 PM
Yeah, i was excited years ago when they started to develop that kit.

I was looking around and there are tons of companies selling the brackets for about 150 for VW's. I am wondering if our calipers are shared with any other cars, or if they are a common mount.

msjulie33
04-29-2015, 04:27 PM
I like this idea. I always wondered what happen to AEM big brake kits that utilized the stock calipers but ran bigger rotors with a bracket for the calipers. I always liked that setup.

Back when I had my Audi A4 the A8 caliper bracket and rotor was the way to get big brakes up front with keeping the same caliper - but it added a lot of unsprung weight as it turned out. Still noticeable improvement in keeping the brakes cool in stressful conditions

sjb2720
04-29-2015, 04:30 PM
yes! i would love to do this. what rotors would be used?

Davothegr8
04-29-2015, 09:16 PM
Wouldn't the biggest issue be lug pattern?

ajkirton
04-30-2015, 06:21 AM
the biggest issue would be the offset of the rotor. The lug pattern is a somewhat easy fix with a dual drilled rotor.

I am looking more into not upgrading the rotor as much as upgrading the caliper for upgraded clamping force.

Davothegr8
04-30-2015, 09:57 AM
the biggest issue would be the offset of the rotor. The lug pattern is a somewhat easy fix with a dual drilled rotor.

I am looking more into not upgrading the rotor as much as upgrading the caliper for upgraded clamping force.

Hopefully you will follow thru with this mod. Keep us updated.

ajkirton
04-30-2015, 10:30 AM
Will do. I would love to work with one of the vendors so that we could get a kit like this to the market.

BigDaddySRT
04-30-2015, 11:03 AM
We don't have a valve like older cars, we have 4-channel ABS. So long as you use the ABS sensor/wheel speed sensor still, then it really wont matter. Its no different that the big brake kits from Wilwood or Brembo, just less expensive.

Those Wilwood and BREMBO Kits are designed to use the stock Master Cylinder.

You guys aren't thinking outside the box... installing these Huge Honking Calipers will require an upgraded Master Cylinder to push more Fluid.
If you don't have the Master Cylinder to push more fluid then you will have the brake response of a 1974 Chevrolet Pick Up Truck.

Is it going to stop.... sure... eventually it will.

ajkirton
04-30-2015, 11:38 AM
I have done this type of kit on multiple vehicles and have never upgraded the master cylinder, or had anything but positive brake feel. The Brembo kits that they have for our cars are not specially designed calipers. Brembo does not have the resources to design a separate caliper for each application neither does wilwood.

Brembo and Wilwood only have about 3 or 4 separate caliper designs that they adapt kits to use.

The brakes on a Porsche are in-fact manufactured by Brembo, and labelled on the caliper as such. When dealing with a hydraulics system there are many more factors that affect the performance of the caliper than the amount of fluid it uses for actuation. If you were to break down the calipers you would notice immediately that the Brembo calipers use a smaller piston than the stock caliper. I would be surprised if there is much of a difference in the level of fluid being used to actuate either caliper.

Remember our caliper uses one very large piston to clamp from one side. This requires that piston to move much further to provide the 2-sided clamping force. That is why we have a sliding/floating caliper.

When moving to a 4-piston setup you have two smaller pistons on each side that will move much less than the single piston. The benefit of this is that you have your pads evenly applied to the breaking surface. The even distribution results in a consistent contact and more contact pressure. Now these companies spend a lot of money and time figuring out how to actuate their pistons with as little fluid as possible as fluid is the weak link in the hydraulic braking system.

Now also you have to look at the Brembo and Wilwood systems as they use what is called an open bath breaking system. This means that the piston can move either direction. Many of the stock brakes on cars use a semi-closed bath system which requires a tool or additional pressure for the piston to retract into the caliper.
Comparing the stock caliper to the aftermarket alternatives is a very unfair comparison.
I am not looking for a brake upgrade for looks or bragging rights. I would like a system that is less prone to fade, and will maintain a consistent brake performance during my long mountain road cruises.

BigDaddySRT
04-30-2015, 11:56 AM
I have done this type of kit on multiple vehicles and have never upgraded the master cylinder, or had anything but positive brake feel. The Brembo kits that they have for our cars are not specially designed calipers. Brembo does not have the resources to design a separate caliper for each application neither does wilwood.

Brembo and Wilwood only have about 3 or 4 separate caliper designs that they adapt kits to use.

The brakes on a Porsche are in-fact manufactured by Brembo, and labelled on the caliper as such. When dealing with a hydraulics system there are many more factors that affect the performance of the caliper than the amount of fluid it uses for actuation. If you were to break down the calipers you would notice immediately that the Brembo calipers use a smaller piston than the stock caliper. I would be surprised if there is much of a difference in the level of fluid being used to actuate either caliper.

Remember our caliper uses one very large piston to clamp from one side. This requires that piston to move much further to provide the 2-sided clamping force. That is why we have a sliding/floating caliper.

When moving to a 4-piston setup you have two smaller pistons on each side that will move much less than the single piston. The benefit of this is that you have your pads evenly applied to the breaking surface. The even distribution results in a consistent contact and more contact pressure. Now these companies spend a lot of money and time figuring out how to actuate their pistons with as little fluid as possible as fluid is the weak link in the hydraulic braking system.

Now also you have to look at the Brembo and Wilwood systems as they use what is called an open bath breaking system. This means that the piston can move either direction. Many of the stock brakes on cars use a semi-closed bath system which requires a tool or additional pressure for the piston to retract into the caliper.
Comparing the stock caliper to the aftermarket alternatives is a very unfair comparison.
I am not looking for a brake upgrade for looks or bragging rights. I would like a system that is less prone to fade, and will maintain a consistent brake performance during my long mountain road cruises.

And I'll say it again... Yes it's going to stop.... eventually.

A show car that doesn't get driven on the street ever is a completely different story from a dedicated track car.
There's a real reason as to why Complete BREMBO Brake Systems provided as OEM cost so much money.
It's so much more than simply swapping Calipers.

ajkirton
04-30-2015, 12:11 PM
ok, But I have done this on all of my previous track cars with wonderful results.

What do you think is different between the Brembo calipers sourced from Porsche and the calipers in these big brake kits?

I have built many track cars over the years, and have raced at very high levels within a couple organizations. I have also owned a business where I was a distributor for Brembo, Wilwood and Rotora. None of these kits ever required an upgraded brake master. They all use the same calipers. I am just confused as to what the difference is between the porsche (brembo) caliper and the aftermarket (generic) brembo caliper that comes with the kits for our cars.

The only instance where a car required a larger brake master that I know of was the brembo cobra R from 2001ish. This was only when swapping the calipers to an SN95 chassis or older. and it wasnt required unless if you wanted to change the pedal feel. The cars still stopped faster with the caliper upgrade alone than they did with the stock setup. It just had slightly more pedal modulation. This worked out better on the track as there was less of an on/off sensation.

On my 1995 mustang SPO car we ran the Cobra R brake system flawlessly.

I have never owned a showcar that doesn't get driven on the streets. I have however owned a very large number of highly modified cars and have built an even larger number of cars for the track.

Davothegr8
04-30-2015, 12:23 PM
So you arent going to fool with a rotor just a larger caliper with a bracket? That doesnt sound near as hard as adding a larger rotor and caliper set up.

ajkirton
04-30-2015, 12:43 PM
Thats what I am thinking. Unfortunately keeping the stock rotor size may pose a greater issue than up-sizing. We will have to see.

Davothegr8
04-30-2015, 12:46 PM
what about another mopar car? would they have the same caliper bolt spacing?

ajkirton
05-07-2015, 10:22 PM
Ok. I have found some more doing a little digging.

Apparantly overseas it is common to upgrade our brakes using fiat turbo coupe rotors (305mm 4x98) and megane turbo calipers or any other brembo caliper. Peoplr are making their own adapters but i think i might hace found the company that makes them as well. Some have done the whole upgrade for very cheap with some hunting.

ajkirton
05-07-2015, 10:23 PM
"The cheapest way is to do like I did
Front discs are 305mm off a fiat coupe turbo and the calipers are off a Renault megane f1 230
And I made adapter brackets "

Grabbed this from another fiat site...

ajkirton
05-07-2015, 10:27 PM
http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af251/kirtonandrew/Mobile%20Uploads/2012-10/photo-31_zpsaimigxgz.jpg (http://s1013.photobucket.com/user/kirtonandrew/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2012-10/photo-31_zpsaimigxgz.jpg.html)

http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af251/kirtonandrew/Mobile%20Uploads/2012-10/photo-29_zpspivrodpk.jpg (http://s1013.photobucket.com/user/kirtonandrew/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2012-10/photo-29_zpspivrodpk.jpg.html)
http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af251/kirtonandrew/Mobile%20Uploads/2012-10/photo-28_zpsmxuhxtei.jpg (http://s1013.photobucket.com/user/kirtonandrew/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2012-10/photo-28_zpsmxuhxtei.jpg.html)

ajkirton
05-07-2015, 10:32 PM
FIAT Coupe
2.0i 20V Turbo
1996 - 2000

That woukd be the upgraded disc that will work.

ajkirton
05-07-2015, 10:35 PM
Just did a quick ebay search for "porsche calipers" and it brought up 996 caliper set for 379 buy it now. Those stock rotors can be had for around 200. Looking at making some brackets and having a kit for around 600 to 800......seems very doable.

JLFast
05-07-2015, 10:51 PM
Great idea! Great thread! Im looking forward to seeing how this turns out.

bggale
05-08-2015, 02:04 AM
While you're at it, see if the rear rotors from the Fiat Turbo Coupe are bigger than ours, and use them in the rear with our stock calipers and custom brackets. I'll bet that's what the Tarox large rear brake kit at TMC is. I believe the rear rotors are 305s.

ophidia31
05-08-2015, 09:27 AM
Just did a quick ebay search for "porsche calipers" and it brought up 996 caliper set for 379 buy it now. Those stock rotors can be had for around 200. Looking at making some brackets and having a kit for around 600 to 800......seems very doable.

The wilwood kit isnt that much more and its lighter weight 6 piston caliper and 2piece rotor. The whole setup will weight the same as the stock setup vs adding more weight with heavy ass brembos and single piece rotors and all the leg work is done for you already. With such a light car, weight changes make a bigger difference than if it was heavier. I applaude your efforts though.

Crossfirecat
05-08-2015, 02:15 PM
The wilwood kit isnt that much more and its lighter weight 6 piston caliper and 2piece rotor. The whole setup will weight the same as the stock setup vs adding more weight with heavy ass brembos and single piece rotors and all the leg work is done for you already. With such a light car, weight changes make a bigger difference than if it was heavier. I applaude your efforts though.

The wilwoods actually weight less than the oem. The Wilwood caliper and rotor combined are roughly equal to the oem rotor by itself. The rear rotors are not that much lighter due to being vented vs solid oem, but the Wilwood caliper more than makes up for it weighing about half that of the stock caliper.
Another benefit, all the adapters and brake hoses/lines are already made and ready to go.

The Porsche brakes idea is awesome and I love one off custom stuff! Back in the day we used to machine to rotors off stock Fiero brakes (yes, I said..FIERO) and then press the "hub" that was left over into the larger diameter Pontiac Grand am GT brake rotors! Grind down the caliper mounts and install the grand am caliper as well. the Talk about crazy! Then we'd use the master cylinder off a full size Chevy blazer. Not as exotic as Brembos off a Porsche, but pretty cool for a bunch of guys in the 80's until the Miatas and those damn Honda S2000's started showing up at the track.

ajkirton
05-08-2015, 10:21 PM
My goal really is tu use the stock rotor. I am just giving ideas for the bigger brake crowd.

I have had many sets of wilwoods on previous race cars. They are wonderful calipers but i have split a few in the past and like the bulletproof build of the brembo caliper.

I have a few calls into wilwood for a brake upgrade on the stock or stock sized rotor.

FTY
05-08-2015, 11:46 PM
Wilwood has address the splitting issue and have redesigned the caliper to include a brace that connects both halves of the caliper.

ajkirton
05-08-2015, 11:52 PM
Awesome. Thats good to know.

Spyrule
06-10-2015, 09:11 PM
The one big problem with willwoods is that they don't have all weather boots so they don't tolerate cold/salty road weather at all (unless you somehow enjoy greasing your brakes every few weeks).

thats why they arnt used much in Canada as much as brembos. A few willwood's have the option for weather boots, but most don't.