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stealthy1ss
03-03-2014, 10:02 PM
Has anyone tried a 225 wide tire on any size wheel with an Abarth? I am thinking about trying it out and seeing how much of a battle stance I can get out of the car.

MikeThinks
03-03-2014, 10:44 PM
While it may be possible with some really low offset rims (thinking 7.5 wide monza rims at 15offset), Im not sure just how far out you'll have to go to clear the rear wheel well where the tolerance is very tight. Even so, your going to have an issue near steering lock in all likelihood. Your will kill (ok reduce) your acceleration, not only from the weight of the tires, but possibly also from the thinner contact patch front to back (the wide tire can help in lateral grip assuming your suspension geometry isnt all fudged up, but will make you contact patch wide and short may cause more wheel spin...same for braking).

Many people don't realize that going wider doesnt automatically mean more straight line acceleration...especially on a car as light as ours. You will also be turning your wheels into water skis when you hit a puddle (all other things like tire compound being equal). Not sure you can pull off a mean looking battle stance hydroplaning into a ditch :P

This is just educated conjecture, but I do feel 225 is just too wide to be effective on the car...but it would look cool.

Ryephile
03-03-2014, 11:19 PM
In theory, 225 would be fine for the front, but in the back there isn't enough corner weight to get much use out of them and they'll always be cold.

I see RRM is using 225/45-16 with their mega fender flares on 20mm offset wheels.

What're your goals? Warm dry track-day grip? A number to brag about?

Gharbeson
03-04-2014, 02:14 AM
I think 225's would be counterproductive if you are doing this solely for better performance. The limited amount of tork available on these small cars would just get sucked up just getting everything rolling.

nilfinite
03-04-2014, 06:52 PM
What's the widest tire you guys would recommend for the Abarth? 205? 215?

Ryephile
03-04-2014, 07:28 PM
What's the widest tire you guys would recommend for the Abarth? 205? 215?

Most of us are running:
195/45-16 [stock 16" size]
205/45-16 [more accurate speedo + more grip 16" size]
205/40-17 [stock 17" size]
215/40-17 [aggressive + slightly too tall 17" size]

As usual, the answer for each person is "it depends". If you're stuck in the snow belt, a 195 wide tire is a better choice for snow. If you're all about extreme for the sake of extreme, you probably want the Kumho V710 in 215/40-16. Track guys will want the Hoosier R6 up front and A6 in rear in 205/45-16 size. Stick with the first 3 tire sizes I wrote and you'll be fine for most street scenarios.

If your roads support minimal sidewall, the stock 205/40-17 has some ok selections. Personally, the 205/45-16 is my pick for a good mix of more shoulder/pothole resistance and grippy summer tire selection.

nilfinite
03-04-2014, 10:34 PM
Most of us are running:
195/45-16 [stock 16" size]
205/45-16 [more accurate speedo + more grip 16" size]
205/40-17 [stock 17" size]
215/40-17 [aggressive + slightly too tall 17" size]

As usual, the answer for each person is "it depends". If you're stuck in the snow belt, a 195 wide tire is a better choice for snow. If you're all about extreme for the sake of extreme, you probably want the Kumho V710 in 215/40-16. Track guys will want the Hoosier R6 up front and A6 in rear in 205/45-16 size. Stick with the first 3 tire sizes I wrote and you'll be fine for most street scenarios.

If your roads support minimal sidewall, the stock 205/40-17 has some ok selections. Personally, the 205/45-16 is my pick for a good mix of more shoulder/pothole resistance and grippy summer tire selection.

Awesome thanks for the feedback! I'm currently running 205/45-16 Bridgestone RE-11s on the stock 16"s right now actually. But that's for my daily driving duties. Now I'm trying to figure out if it's worth getting wider tires and lighter wheels for Autocross / Track purposes. It's tough trying to figure out between 16" wheels vs 17" wheels vs 205 vs 215 vs 225 because the tire selection isn't that great in our range.

Ryephile
03-04-2014, 10:40 PM
Oh cool, I just ordered those tires in that size. How do you like them? Good steering feel and minimal tramlining, I hope!

One other possibility for a drive-it-to-the-track-n-back tire is the Toyo R888, in both 195/50-16 [wide for its size, good diameter] and 205/40-17. They're not cheap though.

nilfinite
03-04-2014, 10:47 PM
I really love the RE-11s. Haven't noticed anything negative. Tramlining is minimal for the tire width. Steering feel seems heavier.

It might be slightly stiffer than the stock Pirelli P7s but I can't tell for certain because I replaced the P7s as soon as I got the car.

jguerdat
03-05-2014, 08:32 AM
215/40-17 [aggressive + slightly too tall 17" size]

At least the Dunlop ZIIs are only .1" taller than stock. Tirerack called me when I ordered them to warn me about the diameter increase but when I pointed this out, they agreed. .1" could possibly be found in different stock sizes depending on brand/model.

stealthy1ss
03-06-2014, 08:08 PM
In theory, 225 would be fine for the front, but in the back there isn't enough corner weight to get much use out of them and they'll always be cold.

I see RRM is using 225/45-16 with their mega fender flares on 20mm offset wheels.

What're your goals? Warm dry track-day grip? A number to brag about?

My car is a daily driver that I track a few times and I also autox a little. My thoughts were to run a 225/45/16 Z2 on a 16x7 +37 wheel. Last year I ran 205/45 R1R's on my stock 16's but I don't like how the wheels/tires look with my KW V1 coils. To me it doesn't look meaty enough and the wheels look sunk and too small. The reason I chose the Z2's is because the size difference wont mess with the speedo too much and I am hoping to get a little more life out of them compared to the R1R's. My goals are to have a wheel tire combo that fills the wheel well, looks close to flush, and gives the car more lateral grip.

Ryephile
03-06-2014, 08:26 PM
The Dunlop Z2's should offer more tread life at the expense of grip versus the R1R's, though I can't be certain the extra width will help you get that grip back. In the front, the answer is probably "Yes" since that's where the car is doing all the work, but in the back I'd venture the tire will be problematic because it'll never get much over ambient temp.

I always feel that having at least two sets of wheels for the car is the best solution. Street Summer, Street Winter, and Track. If this isn't in the budget though, I understand. If I were starting clean for a track setup, I'd do 205/45-16 Hoosier front and back, with R6 compound up front and A6 in back. If you wanted to get fancy pants, 225/40-17 front and 205/40-17 rear, both in R6.

I'm a little worried about your proposed fitment. I'm not sure you'll clear the inboard bits with more offset than stock and another half inch of tire width poking inboard. Seems that something more like a 16x7.5 et25 would be closer to a good fitment, but then you run into fender clearance problems. hmmm catch 22.

How about the Neu-F wheels in 17x7.5 et35 with Dunlop Z2's in 215/40-17? That'd be a good balance of filling out the wheel wells and also trying to get closer to that magical same-grip/more-treadlife compromise, IMO.

stealthy1ss
03-06-2014, 08:35 PM
I would love to have 3 sets of wheels but that is definitely not in the budget. The wheels that I like are either too expensive or they don't come in the desired size and offset. About 2 weeks ago I had a shot at some 17x7.5 +35 Volk CE37K's but was a little late to the party. Thanks for you suggestions Ryephile.

nilfinite
11-19-2014, 10:16 PM
On this topic, has anyone tried 15x7.5" wheels with 225/45/15 tires yet?

doverosx
11-20-2014, 04:10 PM
What is all this talk about limited torque? The car makes 170ft-lbs in stock form; my Spec-V made 180 and that was a relatively high strung 180. I tried reading through the explanations as to why it slows acceleration down but I disagreed in principal. If you spin with 215s and you INCREASE the contact patch, with all things being equal, the tires will spin less. The weight difference is negligible from 215/225s...again, Si owners would be crying to the moon if their torque, what little they have, had vanished for a 1-2lbs heavier tire.

MemoryFoam
11-20-2014, 04:29 PM
If you spin with 215s and you INCREASE the contact patch, with all things being equal, the tires will spin less.

It's my understanding that simply changing tire sizes does not increase the contact patch. It only changes the shape of it.

Adding weight or lowering air pressure will increase the contact patch.

jguerdat
11-21-2014, 09:08 AM
^ +1

Adding width *can* help with lateral acceleration since the contact patch is wider (but maybe skinnier). Wheel width vs tire width gets in there, too...

idrivemyself
11-21-2014, 03:21 PM
When you increase a tire's width while retaining the same rim width size, the contact patch will increase up until the point of where the tire itself has become grossly over sized for the rim that the sidewall can no longer round out to accommodate the contact patch staying flat. And thus the contact patch itself becomes lessened as a result of the sidewall strength overcoming the tire's face. A reverse example of this is when a tire is grossly stretched on a "scene" car, the contact patch is lessened as a result of the incorrect position of the sidewall. Of course there are variables to all of this as no two tire manufacturer's produce an identical product, as well as factoring tire pressures.

Regardless, when up sizing a tire on the same rim the important factors on paper are the Rim Width Range, the Measured Rim Width (or ideal rim width size), Section Width, Tread Width and the Overall Diameter. Once you know a tire will fit the rim, it's up to you to measure the tire sweep (lock to lock), rim offset and distance from the hub face to the strut body on your car. Then you can determine what will and what won't fit. Tire Rack has a decent guide and further explanation: http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=7&currentpage=200

As far as having a solid contact patch when up sizing your tire, proper tire pressure adjustments may need to be made. Grab a temp gun, go for a drive, stop and then measure the tire heat range across the contact patch. An even temperature across the face will indicate that you have the pressures right. Once this is done, an increase in initial acceleration and handling should be felt and you'll get the most out of the tire. (Assuming that you bought a stickier tire as well...)

Setting up for the track vs the street; there are a few differences, more details.

Or just say F it all and buy a set of R comps in your stock size. :burnout:

dart1.4t
11-22-2014, 05:58 PM
lots of good information but some may be speculation. there are a few thins that contribute to tire contact area. there is tire pressure and stiffness of the tire. the stiffness properties are hard to guess, they need testing as the pressure helps aid the stiffness the properties can be complex, but generally wider tires are less stiff and the contact patch is more determinde by pressure. you can easily see how the pressure influences contact patch. the way the rubber supports the rim is hard to describe but logically if the tires hold 32psi then the rubber can't deflect more than what is required to create a patch with an area equal to corner weight/32psi. if a tire was to deflect to create a larger patch than this suggests the ground pressure would be higher than the car is pushing, it's easy to see that this is not possible. so you see the size of the tire is not as relevant to contact patch as you would think but if anything a narrow tire has a slightly smaller patch only because it is more stiff, which ofcoarse also depends on tire construction. instead tire pressure creates much of the patch, but tire size contributes to tire mass and surface area changing it's energy required to change temperature and it's ability to expend that heat. ryephile is on point talking about heat. that's what you need to concern yourself with if it's a track application. can you get the tires to a good temperature or will you over heat them?

as far as big tires for the sake of appearances, some tires run wider than advertised on the section width. bfg is one of these tire makers that run wide. you may also note that some tires look wider than others at the tread and the advertised tread width doesn't always reflect this because the tread width is advertised by the widest point that contains a tread groove. some tires may taper significantly from this point which may never contact the road.

different tire makers may have different sidewall shapes and the rim width effects the true section width. a 225 takes up more space on a wider rim than a narrow one. getting a 225 to fit without rubbing may take some experimentation with brand, rims width and offset. but whether it's worth it or not depends on your goals. a 225 might not rub with a narrow rim but you might not like the handling, i'd prefer a narrowish tire on a rim as wide as the tire manufacturer recommends as max or possibly just slightly wider. if you do this the sidewalls taper in creating a trapazoid shape and give the tire a bit of bevel, this would give a wide appearance but give clearance in areas that might cause a problem at full lock. it also would mean that in a corner when the body rolls and the tire cambers positive the tire would tend to deform in a way that pushes the inner edge down on the road using more of the tire helping spread the heat over the width. using a wider tire on a narrow rim would do the opposite. it might let you get more width around the strut but is more likely to cause issues at full lock and the tire may conform to the road in a corner but only because the extra size makes it less rigid. it would probably not feel as nimble.

there are some good tires for all seasons but if you want wide then you may want separate winter tires. doing so will free up your choices for summer tires. this is my preference. but from an economical standpoint getting all season tires and buying new fronts every winter season or two rotating the old ones to the rear may make more sense as you never have to buy more than 2 tires at once. if this was your preference you might want to keep it down in size to something we all know will fit.

as far as tire height, the stock tires are a bit small, it might be favorable to go with a stock width or and go up 1 aspect ratio or go up 1-2 widths with the stock aspect ratio so that the tire runs tall. look at it this way. if the stock tire is short, as it wears it only gets shorter. but if you start a bit tall, and the tire has 10/32 tread*2 that's 5/8" that the tire could shrink if you ran them completely bald. you probably won't do this but you could legally wear them down a half inch from stock and you will most likely wear them atleast 1/4 before changing then. so if you went 1/8-1/4 too tall to start with then you would find the ideal size to match speedo and gps readings somewhere down the road and maybe pass it so your average reading over the life of the tire may be more acurate.

jguerdat
11-23-2014, 09:25 AM
as far as tire height, the stock tires are a bit small, it might be favorable to go with a stock width or and go up 1 aspect ratio or go up 1-2 widths with the stock aspect ratio so that the tire runs tall. look at it this way. if the stock tire is short, as it wears it only gets shorter. but if you start a bit tall, and the tire has 10/32 tread*2 that's 5/8" that the tire could shrink if you ran them completely bald. you probably won't do this but you could legally wear them down a half inch from stock and you will most likely wear them atleast 1/4 before changing then. so if you went 1/8-1/4 too tall to start with then you would find the ideal size to match speedo and gps readings somewhere down the road and maybe pass it so your average reading over the life of the tire may be more acurate.

Yeah, but who really wants to RAISE this car? :p

Crossfirecat
11-23-2014, 11:31 AM
If your dead set on running a 225, you can get the Yokohama S-Drive in a 225/35/17. Not exactly the best tires but if your just looking for "Stance", they'll do. Just do not expect much out of them on the track.

shagghie
11-24-2014, 01:40 AM
Thoughts on the new A7/r7 Hoosiers vs. the a6/r6?

I was thinking r7 on all four and just rotating F to R 3/4's the way thru the F's wear cycle.

The Dunlop Z2's should offer more tread life at the expense of grip versus the R1R's, though I can't be certain the extra width will help you get that grip back. In the front, the answer is probably "Yes" since that's where the car is doing all the work, but in the back I'd venture the tire will be problematic because it'll never get much over ambient temp.

I always feel that having at least two sets of wheels for the car is the best solution. Street Summer, Street Winter, and Track. If this isn't in the budget though, I understand. If I were starting clean for a track setup, I'd do 205/45-16 Hoosier front and back, with R6 compound up front and A6 in back. If you wanted to get fancy pants, 225/40-17 front and 205/40-17 rear, both in R6.

I'm a little worried about your proposed fitment. I'm not sure you'll clear the inboard bits with more offset than stock and another half inch of tire width poking inboard. Seems that something more like a 16x7.5 et25 would be closer to a good fitment, but then you run into fender clearance problems. hmmm catch 22.

How about the Neu-F wheels in 17x7.5 et35 with Dunlop Z2's in 215/40-17? That'd be a good balance of filling out the wheel wells and also trying to get closer to that magical same-grip/more-treadlife compromise, IMO.

Ryephile
11-25-2014, 05:00 PM
Thoughts on the new A7/r7 Hoosiers vs. the a6/r6?

I was thinking r7 on all four and just rotating F to R 3/4's the way thru the F's wear cycle.

I've heard rumors that the R7's are up to a second faster on an unknown lap time versus the R6's. I'll be getting some R7's in spring for the track car, but unfortunately I won't have any older tire data on that car to compare it with.

The usual disclaimer: even though Hoosiers are "DOT" approved, they should never be actually driven on the street as they have virtually zero grip at ambient temp, hence their UTQG "C" temp rating.



I haven't heard anything on the A7's. Since they're new, you probably want them for auto-x. :)

shagghie
11-25-2014, 05:33 PM
lol i see what you did there at the end. it is hard to get tires warmed up for auto-x. you basically loose your first lap.


I've heard rumors that the R7's are up to a second faster on an unknown lap time versus the R6's. I'll be getting some R7's in spring for the track car, but unfortunately I won't have any older tire data on that car to compare it with.

The usual disclaimer: even though Hoosiers are "DOT" approved, they should never be actually driven on the street as they have virtually zero grip at ambient temp, hence their UTQG "C" temp rating.



I haven't heard anything on the A7's. Since they're new, you probably want them for auto-x. :)

stealthy1ss
11-25-2014, 06:11 PM
That is why you have someone co-drive your car and make them go first! :eagerness:

Crazy Otto
11-25-2014, 09:26 PM
Most of us are running:
195/45-16 [stock 16" size]
205/45-16 [more accurate speedo + more grip 16" size]
205/40-17 [stock 17" size]
215/40-17 [aggressive + slightly too tall 17" size]

As usual, the answer for each person is "it depends". If you're stuck in the snow belt, a 195 wide tire is a better choice for snow. If you're all about extreme for the sake of extreme, you probably want the Kumho V710 in 215/40-16. Track guys will want the Hoosier R6 up front and A6 in rear in 205/45-16 size. Stick with the first 3 tire sizes I wrote and you'll be fine for most street scenarios.

If your roads support minimal sidewall, the stock 205/40-17 has some ok selections. Personally, the 205/45-16 is my pick for a good mix of more shoulder/pothole resistance and grippy summer tire selection.

Tires are not all dimensionally accurate or identical for specified sizes.
215/40 yoke advan ad 08 r is identical OD to stock 205/40 pirellis. Not that .1 inch is of any consequence really.
215/40 Khumo v710 is too tall. Almost .5 inch.

I would not recommend mixing compounds front and rear. Although it may make sense on the abarth given weight distribution. ..but...not for someone new to track...

Crazy Otto
11-25-2014, 09:36 PM
I've heard rumors that the R7's are up to a second faster on an unknown lap time versus the R6's. I'll be getting some R7's in spring for the track car, but unfortunately I won't have any older tire data on that car to compare it with.

The usual disclaimer: even though Hoosiers are "DOT" approved, they should never be actually driven on the street as they have virtually zero grip at ambient temp, hence their UTQG "C" temp rating.



I haven't heard anything on the A7's. Since they're new, you probably want them for auto-x. :)

Couple friends ran sprint races on a7s and we're not impressed vs a6s.

Another reason to not run a dot r compound like R6or ssimilar is puncture resistance. Full tread tires like to your toyo r888 or ra1 would be more suitable.

Gharbeson
11-25-2014, 10:33 PM
Couple friends ran sprint races on a7s and we're not impressed vs a6s.

Another reason to not run a dot r compound like R6or ssimilar is puncture resistance. Full tread tires like to your toyo r888 or ra1 would be more suitable.

Are the Hoosier R7 the new tire for spec miatas next year with a harder compound? I have used thr Toyo Proxxes all year on the track with occasional dail driving and they are great as a small compromise vs slicks. I'm ordering a new set this evening.
Hey Crazy Otto, a fellow 355 driver. I have a black 99 F1 Spider. Love it now after a rough start when I got it. Only complaint is dealing with the black paint job. Just bought a 86 328 2 months ago. Tell me about your 355! Are you on Ferrarichat? Those folks make these Fiat chatters seem actually well adjusted!

Crazy Otto
11-26-2014, 02:19 PM
Hey there sorry not up to speed with miaters. ..but I'm sure the nasa or scca forums can provide info.

Going on 10 yrs of 355 ownership. Car has been parked for a few years as i have focused on racing. I have a rosso corsa nero gts 6 spd with 19k on the clock. I have fab speed headers and speedline challenge rims ready to go on when I get her roadworthy.

Fchat definitely has some strong personalities. I'm not a huge forum participant in general but I have been turned off by the interaction there. Mostly I find myself posting to scotch and watch threads.

Sounds like you have yours sorted out and enjoying her. Nothing quite like a 355. Love the pull from 3000 to 8500, the flat torque curve and the amazing sound it makes.......

Abnormalradio13
12-06-2014, 09:26 PM
OK so it seems that 225 are out the question lol. Well I've been ding some research today(getting my note/log book started) for my car when i start racing next year. The only 205 tires i saw were the hoosier A6-7, R6-7. They also came in 225/40/17 as well. I also found some toyo r888 and i believe the r1r in 225/45/17. I know if i go 225 i'll need wheel spacers so my question for the guys that track, which would be best suited? I know going the bigger size i'll lose acceleration but i should gain some g's in the corners. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I plan to run 17x7 club racing and still deciding on how wide 16s i should go.

SweetSandMan
12-07-2014, 10:46 AM
I have a set of 16x8 wheels in my basement waiting for spring to come and I am debating putting 225s on. It'll either be 215/45 or 225/45. The options on the 215/45 are limited so that's the only reason I've really been looking at 225s.

Abnormalradio13
12-07-2014, 12:01 PM
I have a set of 16x8 wheels in my basement waiting for spring to come and I am debating putting 225s on. It'll either be 215/45 or 225/45. The options on the 215/45 are limited so that's the only reason I've really been looking at 225s.

yea the only thing for 215 are the togo r888s

shagghie
05-26-2016, 12:30 AM
yea the only thing for 215 are the togo r888s


Old thread, but noticed this was wrong. The stupid Falken Azenis are only thing in 215/45/16. :-)

ManOfStealth
05-27-2016, 05:25 PM
Take a look at all the specs on the tires. Tire tread width will range an inch or so even if they are the same tire aspect and ratio. The 205/45/16 GFG G-Force Sport Comp-2 has a tire width of 8" while the same size tire in the Sumoto HTR Z II has a tread width of 6.9". So maybe your 215 might be as wide as a 225 in the right tire choice.

Randall

shagghie
05-27-2016, 06:18 PM
Take a look at all the specs on the tires. Tire tread width will range an inch or so even if they are the same tire aspect and ratio. The 205/45/16 GFG G-Force Sport Comp-2 has a tire width of 8" while the same size tire in the Sumoto HTR Z II has a tread width of 6.9". So maybe your 215 might be as wide as a 225 in the right tire choice.

Randall

truth... R888's and A048's both run much wider than people think...they order them and then are like .... whoa. Meanwhile the infamously awesome RE-71's run realllly narrow for a semi slick, but as a result, they are great in the water for such a track-oriented tire.

Klasse Act
08-06-2016, 04:33 PM
What's the widest tire you guys would recommend for the Abarth? 205? 215?


I run a 215 width tire on my stockers and had to trim a little bit from the drivers side rear wheel well, yeah you heard me right, REAR!

BigDaddySRT
08-06-2016, 06:56 PM
225/45R17 Hoosier A7

Get your cutting torches out!!!!

Don't forget your going to need front wheel spacers and longer stud bolts.
Depending on how much negative camber you run up front will determine how wide a spacer you need.

Gsabarth
08-12-2016, 07:49 AM
I am running the Pogea racing rims 18 inch 8 inch wide. 215/35-18 Nitto neoGen. All is well except when you make a hard cut like backing out of a parking spot I definately hear a rub. Also thought I heard rear scuff or rub on a dip in the roadway. I love the rims but now I don't think I can lower the car because I'm worried it will make matters worse. When I bought them from madness they told me there were no clearance issues at all and I see someone running the same set on a lowered car. I just don't want any trouble.