PDA

View Full Version : Would you guys consider?



cy-clone33
02-09-2014, 08:52 PM
As great as the FMIC is some of us either cant afford it or cant use it do to are sanctioning rules ( such as SCCA STC CLASS ) BUT we could afford/replace the factory inadequate design plumbing with something more free flowing ?

BecauseRacecar
02-09-2014, 11:59 PM
I'll second this - I'm also interested in a nice cleaned up / sealed up plumbing setup! +1

I asked my dealer - if I change out the stock intercooler for an FMIC, I lose all powertrain warranty (a big deal to me), but if I were to change the plumbing to some nice silicone bits, I keep all my warranty (except for the piping of course).

Same reason I'm using a piggyback ECU and simple short ram intake... have to be "service friendly" :sneakiness:

TurboBullett@Ambient Thermal Management
02-10-2014, 05:32 AM
I'll second this - I'm also interested in a nice cleaned up / sealed up plumbing setup! +1

I asked my dealer - if I change out the stock intercooler for an FMIC, I lose all powertrain warranty (a big deal to me), but if I were to change the plumbing to some nice silicone bits, I keep all my warranty (except for the piping of course).

Same reason I'm using a piggyback ECU and simple short ram intake... have to be "service friendly" :sneakiness:

It sounds like your warranty protection is to remove parts before bringing in the car for service, in this case it would be easier/less time consuming to remove the fmic kit and reinstall the factory intercooling system then to swap out hoses. Our intercooler install uses factory mounting points and only requires drilling one small 9/64 hole in the bumper!

TurboBullett@Ambient Thermal Management
02-10-2014, 05:55 AM
As great as the FMIC is some of us either cant afford it or cant use it do to are sanctioning rules ( such as SCCA STC CLASS ) BUT we could afford/replace the factory inadequate design plumbing with something more free flowing ?

No matter what way you look at it the factory intercooler requires a split/merge and/or hard pipe connection on both the hot and cold sides and will wind up looking pretty much like what you are removing. The reason being is the abarth uses dual pass side mount intercoolers which places the inlet and outlet on the same side of the intercooler. The only difference in a silicone setup vs stock is using hose clamps and silicone vs the factory push lock connectors and rubber hose. the layout will not change, nor will you see an improvement in AIT temp reduction because you haven't changed your cooling mediem(the actual intercoolers). What are the actual rules and limitations in the racing class you race in?

Intercoolers and Intercooler design is our primary business. A Front Mount was not our initial intent when we first recieved the car until we actually got in there and saw the space and factory hardware we had to deal with. The factory uses Valeo plastic end tank intercoolers. This type of intercooler seals the plastic end tanks with O-rings pressed to the aluminum cores. Over time and heat cycling inherently this design will start to leak, google intercooler leak and you will see a vast amount of leaking factory intercoolers with this design.

AudiGuy
02-12-2014, 12:30 PM
No matter what way you look at it the factory intercooler requires a split/merge and/or hard pipe connection on both the hot and cold sides and will wind up looking pretty much like what you are removing. The reason being is the abarth uses dual pass side mount intercoolers which places the inlet and outlet on the same side of the intercooler. The only difference in a silicone setup vs stock is using hose clamps and silicone vs the factory push lock connectors and rubber hose. the layout will not change, nor will you see an improvement in AIT temp reduction because you haven't changed your cooling mediem(the actual intercoolers). What are the actual rules and limitations in the racing class you race in?

Intercoolers and Intercooler design is our primary business. A Front Mount was not our initial intent when we first recieved the car until we actually got in there and saw the space and factory hardware we had to deal with. The factory uses Valeo plastic end tank intercoolers. This type of intercooler seals the plastic end tanks with O-rings pressed to the aluminum cores. Over time and heat cycling inherently this design will start to leak, google intercooler leak and you will see a vast amount of leaking factory intercoolers with this design.

What if you addressed both issues. Better cores and better sealed piping?

Yorkman1
02-12-2014, 01:33 PM
Cost vs. Gains and you still would have all that piping. Its not worth it.

AudiGuy
02-12-2014, 03:14 PM
Cost vs. Gains and you still would have all that piping. Its not worth it.

Kind of a blanket statement that doesnt really hold water. If you make sure all your piping is leak free (replacing what you need to with silicone) and you find thicker denser cores to swap with, the cost would likely be half of the price of a FMIC "kit". Also, measuring an intercooler by "gains" isnt really accurate. You really dont gain power from an intercooler. You just dont lose as much through heat soaked cores.

TurboBullett@Ambient Thermal Management
02-12-2014, 03:18 PM
What if you addressed both issues. Better cores and better sealed piping?
In regards to the charge piping/intercooling, if you look at our FMIC data thread there is a wealth of information on volumes, intercooler efficiencies etc as they relate to pressure drop, turbo outlet temps, ait temperature drop and temperature stabilization run to run.
http://www.fiat500usaforum.com/showthread.php?10576-ATM-FMIC-Group-buy-and-Data-Information-Thread

No matter what way you design the charge pipes it's still going to be a variation on the same theme. There is already a ton of volume as well as merges in the current charge pipe scenario. Trying to get this to flow better usually means larger diameters ie adding even more volume into the equation. If you look at ANY of the end users of our product reviews they all say that the car is much more responsive and less laggy, much of this is due to the hugely decreased charge pipe volumes. The volume in our system is primarily in the core where it should be as this is where the heat exchange takes place.
Here's our entire system 64% less charge pipe volume than stock, no merges, no sharp turns, no laminar disturbances and only needs 4 clamps.
http://www.fiat500usaforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6806&d=1372094031
Ok onto the cores, in the Abarth scenario and space provided your option on the side mounts is to add thickness to the cores. Anyone that designs intercoolers will tell you that this is the last place you want to add volume as the heat exchange is at it's best on the 1st third of the thickness of the core due to the temperature differential of the ambient air vs the heat of the charge air. As you go thicker the temp differential gets less as the ambient air heats up passing through the core. Basically you are stuck adding volume in the one dimension that doesnt help...The other issue and the thing most fmic manufacturers do is to use a core that fits without the all important testing of cores of varying fin densities. One size never fits all when it comes to developing a custom intercooling situation for a specific car. We took a long while to develop the Abarth intercooler and did a lot of testing /datalogging for the perfect balance of better pressure drop than stock, better ait temp drop than stock and better temperature drop suppression when doing back to back to back runs.

We have a ton of these FMICS out on the road and we personally tested it on our shop car in the heat of the summer in NJ, as you may know NJ is extremely hot in the summer(similar to Florida) with alot of 90-100 degree days, we never experienced ANY coolant related issues nor did we see it rise out of usual range. If you look at our fmic you will see we use rounded ambient and charge face bars, we do this to direct the airflow through the core with less resistance and less pressure drop. Our core only covers the bottom 5 inches of the radiator and is only 2 inches thick, so there is still a very large temperature differential of the air exiting the backside of the core as it enters the condenser/radiator. Another related phenomenon is that our turbo outlet temps are lower with our fmic than the factory side mounts ie the turbo is running more efficiently and less heat is transferred back into the factory coolant in this more efficient scenario. Let's call it a wash!

AudiGuy
02-12-2014, 03:29 PM
In regards to the charge piping/intercooling, if you look at our FMIC data thread there is a wealth of information on volumes, intercooler efficiencies etc as they relate to pressure drop, turbo outlet temps, ait temperature drop and temperature stabilization run to run.

No matter what way you design the charge pipes it's still going to be a variation on the same theme. There is already a ton of volume as well as merges in the current charge pipe scenario. Trying to get this to flow better usually means larger diameters ie adding even more volume into the equation. If you look at ANY of the end users of our product reviews they all say that the car is much more responsive and less laggy, much of this is due to the hugely decreased charge pipe volumes. The volume in our system is primarily in the core where it should be as this is where the heat exchange takes place.

Ok onto the cores, in the Abarth scenario and space provided your option on the side mounts is to add thickness to the cores. Anyone that designs intercoolers will tell you that this is the last place you want to add volume as the heat exchange is at it's best on the 1st third of the thickness of the core due to the temperature differential of the ambient air vs the heat of the charge air. As you go thicker the temp differential gets less as the ambient air heats up passing through the core. Basically you are stuck adding volume in the one dimension that doesnt help...The other issue and the thing most fmic manufacturers do is to use a core that fits without the all important testing of cores of varying fin densities. One size never fits all when it comes to developing a custom intercooling situation for a specific car. We took a long while to develop the Abarth intercooler and did a lot of testing /datalogging for the perfect balance of better pressure drop than stock, better ait temp drop than stock and better temperature drop suppression when doing back to back to back runs.

We have a ton of these FMICS out on the road and we personally tested it on our shop car in the heat of the summer in NJ, as you may know NJ is extremely hot in the summer(similar to Florida) with alot of 90-100 degree days, we never experienced ANY coolant related issues nor did we see it rise out of usual range. If you look at our fmic you will see we use rounded ambient and charge face bars, we do this to direct the airflow through the core with less resistance and less pressure drop. Our core only covers the bottom 5 inches of the radiator and is only 2 inches thick, so there is still a very large temperature differential of the air exiting the backside of the core as it enters the condenser/radiator. Another related phenomenon is that our turbo outlet temps are lower with our fmic than the factory side mounts ie the turbo is running more efficiently and less heat is transferred back into the factory coolant in this more efficient scenario. Let's call it a wash!

Not trying to kick tires here. Sounds like your getting a little defensive. These are all logical frames of thought/questions. And I misspoke. I meant to say more dense, not necessarily thicker. For those of us that are still under warranty and want to stay that way, the FMIC is not an option. Im just trying to weigh my options here.


BTW, sent you a PM about sending me a pay pal request for the boost gauge.

TurboBullett@Ambient Thermal Management
02-12-2014, 03:43 PM
Not trying to kick tires here. Sounds like your getting a little defensive. These are all logical frames of thought/questions. And I misspoke. I meant to say more dense, not necessarily thicker. For those of us that are still under warranty and want to stay that way, the FMIC is not an option. Im just trying to weigh my options here.


BTW, sent you a PM about sending me a pay pal request for the boost gauge.

Please don't take it as defensive, just trying to clarify each scenario. we could have designed and built ANY intercooling system any way. When we approach each vehicle it's with open eyes as what would work best in the space provided without hacking the car up.
I don't see why a dealership in a warranty dispute would have issues with a front mount vs upgraded side mount as you are still swapping out all of the components. In this scenario our fmic could be swapped back to factory spec faster than an aftermarket side mount kit. The only thing a dealer could potentially see when our kit is removed and put is a 9/64 hole drilled in the back bumper seam. This hole is hidden when the front fascia is put back on the car.

I'll paypal request the $50 boost gauge deposit, thanks for your order.

AudiGuy
02-12-2014, 03:54 PM
Please don't take it as defensive, just trying to clarify each scenario. we could have designed and built ANY intercooling system any way. When we approach each vehicle it's with open eyes as what would work best in the space provided without hacking the car up.
I don't see why a dealership in a warranty dispute would have issues with a front mount vs upgraded side mount as you are still swapping out all of the components. In this scenario our fmic could be swapped back to factory spec faster than an aftermarket side mount kit. The only thing a dealer could potentially see when our kit is removed and put is a 9/64 hole drilled in the back bumper seam. This hole is hidden when the front fascia is put back on the car.

I'll paypal request the $50 boost gauge deposit, thanks for your order.

I understand that the FMIC shouldnt be a deal killer. But most of these dealerships are just not very knowledgeable. So usually they hit you with the blanket statement that it will void your warranty.

TurboBullett@Ambient Thermal Management
02-12-2014, 04:10 PM
I understand that the FMIC shouldnt be a deal killer. But most of these dealerships are just not very knowledgeable. So usually they hit you with the blanket statement that it will void your warranty.

The Moss Magnuson act defends against this very practice, in any warranty dispute the dealer would have to prove a mod caused an issue.

In regards to using a a same size but denser core the only way to "know" is to build them and test cores of varying fin densities and charge/ambient row heights then datalog each. When we do this we always attempt to get better pressure drop,ait temp reduction and temperature suppression than stock. I have seen high $ aftermarket intercoolers perform worse than the factory on numerous occasions, and they are always accompanied by no testing data.

Ryephile
02-12-2014, 04:15 PM
The Moss Magnuson act defends against this very practice, in any warranty dispute the dealer would have to prove a mod caused an issue.
...


This, for the love of God, this.

People, don't let the dealership bully you into going along with their illegal actions. Do you really think they're going to call your bluff in court, knowing full well they're going to lose? If a part has an honest defect in it, they have no legal standing to deny warranty repair other than playing the power-play card, hoping you're a feeble scared sheep and you'd rather cough up money than abide by the warranty contract you're obligated to uphold. The regional or national service representative from Fiat has all the pull, and of all the reps I've met, they're actually intelligent people with experience. Can't say any of that for any dealership monkeys.

I'll celebrate the day dealerships are all finally out of business.

AudiGuy
02-12-2014, 04:40 PM
I have to say, I have quite a bit of experience with Moss Magnuson in my dealings with Audi. Because of me, they know very well how it works. But its STILL a headache to try to explain to idiots how THEIR job should be done, and what powers they do and dont have.

TurboBullett@Ambient Thermal Management
02-12-2014, 05:11 PM
I have to say, I have quite a bit of experience with Moss Magnuson in my dealings with Audi. Because of me, they know very well how it works. But its STILL a headache to try to explain to idiots how THEIR job should be done, and what powers they do and dont have.

I may have the best Audi Service department story ever... I built and used to own the AWE Silver Bullet, we built it as the development platform for AWE. It was the worlds fastest B5 S4 for the length that I owned it. Wego Faster had the fastest stock turbo S4 that's how we met. BUT way back before I got the car I placed an order with Cherry Hill Audi, I wanted the very first S4 available so we could start developing parts for it... Pay my deposit and spec the car out then the waiting game for the car to come in. The dealership calls me and let's me know the car will be arriving in about a week so I sell my current vehicle the day before arrival. I get to the dealership the next night and they SOLD MY CAR for a pretty large premium.(the B5 S4 was a hot car at the time with people clamorning for them and paying thousands over MSRP) I went crazy here I am, vehicle less and these bastards made $ on my car. Thankfully I found basically the same car from Bellavia Audi for a better price. Fast forward 2 months, my 2nd gear synchro started to get crunchy so I bring it back to Cherry Hill Audi for warranty.(the service dept might be ok right???WRONG) they said I was racing the car. At his point I am at a loss for words it's winter there are no tracks open and the car is still stock. So back off to Bellavia I go and find out there's a TSB on the car because the original cars shipped with the incorrect trans fluid, a fluid change and shifter linkage adjustment and things are better but not great. About a month later there's a recall on the synchros as the metallurgy on them was wrong and was fixed under warranty...

So here I am Cherry Hill Audi screwed me over twice. I live right near Atco Dragway, CH Audi is sponsoring a VW/Audi meet and at this meet the service manager is walking down pit lane writing down VIN #'s to void peoples warranties that are there racing-At the very same time they have their salesmen drag racing their new and used cars. Needless to say $hit blew up on Vortex and Audiworld, they lost alot of business, the service manager was fired and I have literally diverted 100s of thousands dollars of business to other dealerships over the years since.

The moral of the story is find a dealer/service dept that have a similar mindset as you and won't play the warranty game with you, if they do don't give them any business... Oh and don't do business with Cherry Hill Audi.

AudiGuy
02-12-2014, 05:31 PM
I may have the best Audi Service department story ever... I built and used to own the AWE Silver Bullet, we built it as the development platform for AWE. It was the worlds fastest B5 S4 for the length that I owned it. Wego Faster had the fastest stock turbo S4 that's how we met. BUT way back before I got the car I placed an order with Cherry Hill Audi, I wanted the very first S4 available so we could start developing parts for it... Pay my deposit and spec the car out then the waiting game for the car to come in. The dealership calls me and let's me know the car will be arriving in about a week so I sell my current vehicle the day before arrival. I get to the dealership the next night and they SOLD MY CAR for a pretty large premium.(the B5 S4 was a hot car at the time with people clamorning for them and paying thousands over MSRP) I went crazy here I am, vehicle less and these bastards made $ on my car. Thankfully I found basically the same car from Bellavia Audi for a better price. Fast forward 2 months, my 2nd gear synchro started to get crunchy so I bring it back to Cherry Hill Audi for warranty.(the service dept might be ok right???WRONG) they said I was racing the car. At his point I am at a loss for words it's winter there are no tracks open and the car is still stock. So back off to Bellavia I go and find out there's a TSB on the car because the original cars shipped with the incorrect trans fluid, a fluid change and shifter linkage adjustment and things are better but not great. About a month later there's a recall on the synchros as the metallurgy on them was wrong and was fixed under warranty...

So here I am Cherry Hill Audi screwed me over twice. I live right near Atco Dragway, CH Audi is sponsoring a VW/Audi meet and at this meet the service manager is walking down pit lane writing down VIN #'s to void peoples warranties that are there racing-At the very same time they have their salesmen drag racing their new and used cars. Needless to say $hit blew up on Vortex and Audiworld, they lost alot of business, the service manager was fired and I have literally diverted 100s of thousands dollars of business to other dealerships over the years since.

The moral of the story is find a dealer/service dept that have a similar mindset as you and won't play the warranty game with you, if they do don't give them any business... Oh and don't do business with Cherry Hill Audi.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/hrewheels/6831743427/

Cherry hill in Denver? Or maybe that was Cherry Creek. Anyway, great story. Ive had enough run ins with service pukes, that I just try to avoid them all together when possible. I have a couple options as far as where Ill take it to get serviced. So Ill have to do my homework and talk to some techs to find out where I should take it.

TurboBullett@Ambient Thermal Management
02-12-2014, 05:33 PM
Cherry hill in Denver? Or maybe that was Cherry Creek. Anyway, great story. Ive had enough run ins with service pukes, that I just try to avoid them all together when possible. I have a couple options as far as where Ill take it to get serviced. So Ill have to do my homework and talk to some techs to find out where I should take it.
Cherry Hill NJ, funny one of my College roommates was from Cherry Creek CO.

shadowshaggy
02-12-2014, 06:00 PM
Wow, he needs an a$$ beating not fired.....d-bag service manager...wow.

We went through our fair amount of bs at Gossett VW/Audi when I was there a few years ago. There were a few guys that Auto-X'd their VW/Audi's and so long as there wasn't a part they added on that directly caused the failure (i.e. bigger turbo and blown head gasket), then yeah whatever - fix it under warranty. Obviously, the downpipe and ECU tune caused the rear wheel bearing to fail.....I know you guys know what I'm talking about with some d/a dealers.

It don't matter if you're "racing" the car, you buy the track model of a car - what are you supposed to do with it, sit in your driveway and make fast car noises?

shadowshaggy
02-12-2014, 06:06 PM
Almost forgot, you guys will love this story: (http://www.modified.com/roadtests/0503_sccp_2004_saleen_n20_focus_road_test/)

So the 2004-05 Ford Focus Saleen N2O, normally sh!tty car....but factory connected Nitrous kit with WOT activation.

Guess what, after all the hype about the FIRST car ever to come factory equipped with Nitrous - fill the bottle and it voids your entire warranty on the car. Including the bumper-bumper warranty. Lets get this strait, if I fill the bottle the factory supplied - and the stitching comes out of the handbrake cover - it won't be covered by warranty; because stitching has something to do with Nitrous.....thanks Ford - go F yourselves.

Just a unique story I though I'd share with you guys gr_grin

AudiGuy
02-12-2014, 06:16 PM
Almost forgot, you guys will love this story: (http://www.modified.com/roadtests/0503_sccp_2004_saleen_n20_focus_road_test/)

So the 2004-05 Ford Focus Saleen N2O, normally sh!tty car....but factory connected Nitrous kit with WOT activation.

Guess what, after all the hype about the FIRST car ever to come factory equipped with Nitrous - fill the bottle and it voids your entire warranty on the car. Including the bumper-bumper warranty. Lets get this strait, if I fill the bottle the factory supplied - and the stitching comes out of the handbrake cover - it won't be covered by warranty; because stitching has something to do with Nitrous.....thanks Ford - go F yourselves.

Just a unique story I though I'd share with you guys gr_grin
That's funny. Moss Magnuson act should be stickied at the top of the performance page.