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AudiGuy
02-04-2014, 05:41 PM
So Ive learned a lot from my experiences with the TT. The stock twin side mount intercoolers were ok... but would get heat soaked pretty bad, pretty quickly. While most owners switched to FMICs, the percentage of the community that tracked their cars, found out that a FMIC isnt always the best option. The issue is that the intercooler would block air flow to the radiator. The solution ended up being an upgrade of the side mounts. This allowed people to keep their coolant cooler, and still gave gains because of the increased cooling ability of the upgraded coolers. What Im wondering, is if there is a decent solution for side mounts. If not, Treadstone is local to me, and Id be willing to see if they could make some upgraded cores for our platform. If there is something on the market already that is effective, and doesnt cost an arm and a leg, Ill entertain the idea of buying them. If there isnt anything out there, this could be a great opportunity to have some made for a good price.

shadowshaggy
02-04-2014, 06:01 PM
As long as they can do it with out the 13 feet of tubing, I'm interested.

tknospdr
02-04-2014, 06:46 PM
I've heard that our intercoolers are actually okay, it's just the terrible plumbing that bites us in the arse.
I'd like to see a solution that just involves better routing of the ducts. Maybe some nice silicon tubing in a straighter path.

shadowshaggy
02-04-2014, 06:48 PM
signwerd

redred
02-04-2014, 06:49 PM
Agreed….switch out the stock plumbing and I bet these would work MUCH better. I believe I read somewhere that there are 19 potential leak points from the turbo out to the input of the intake.

Ryephile
02-04-2014, 07:10 PM
Something to keep in perspective; experiences with one other car don't always successfully translate to another car. What's important is to look at the datalogging and see for yourself the thermal capacities of the intercooling, coolant, and oil systems and make and educated decision. Of course, as I say that, I find I don't have any IAT graphs handy, LOL. OK I have one really crappy one of just a sole IAT plot. It's fairly typical though, showing the IAT actually drops as you do a WOT pull on a road, not a dyno.

FWIW, the engine coolant temps on this car appear to be biased on the frozen cold side of things, with typical operation around 170F. This is about 50F colder than most modern cars that shoot for low emissions. For example, the ATM FMIC only covers about half of the radiator, and you have to remember that it's still a heat exchanger and air flows through it, not blocks it. For me up here in the neu-frozen-tundra, my car rarely gets up to temperature even after my 16 mile stint down the Interstate to work. ECT's being too high is pretty much furthest from my concern even with the FMIC.

The stock IC's are fairly effective, but it's the slip-fit connections with the boost tubes that leak. If there was one knock against the stock IC's apart from the stock boost tubes leaking, it's the system pressure drop leaves room for improvement. If you wanted to push a vendor to make something, get them to make leak-free boost tubes for the stock IC's. Don't expect cheap though, as it's a complicated rats nest.

tknospdr
02-04-2014, 07:15 PM
If you wanted to push a vendor to make something, get them to make leak-free boost tubes for the stock IC's. Don't expect cheap though, as it's a complicated rats nest.
If someone could do it for about half the price of a FMIC I think it would have a market.

Abarth Five O
02-04-2014, 07:16 PM
Some nice blue, red, or black silicone tubing options with less bends/connections and larger cores at a price point under $600 would be very attractive.

msjulie33
02-04-2014, 07:18 PM
So Ive learned a lot from my experiences with the TT. The stock twin side mount intercoolers were ok... but would get heat soaked pretty bad, pretty quickly. While most owners switched to FMICs, the percentage of the community that tracked their cars, found out that a FMIC isnt always the best option. The issue is that the intercooler would block air flow to the radiator.

That's interesting; I had a 2001 TT with a FMIC and it made a world of difference taking that car on the track... but it was a heavy beast though and required big time brake updates...

Ok back to Abarths!

AudiGuy
02-04-2014, 07:54 PM
Of course the routing, length, amount of possible leak points are all factors. The idea is to strengthen the weak points in your stock configuration. Even though this is a new platform for me, there are certain principles that will remain constants. In particular "too many potential leak areas". The fix is to construct your path in as few pieces as possible. If you have 8 sections of plastic that don't seem to keep an adequate seal, you make fewer (longer) pipes out of metal and attach them with high quality silicone. That approach with side mounts that are a little denser and of higher quality, and you might not need to compromise flow through the radiator.

I live in Florida, where it's hotter than hell 90% of the year. Coolant temps are important and have a huge impact on my performance.

flyboy2160
02-04-2014, 09:49 PM
... FWIW, the engine coolant temps on this car appear to be biased on the frozen cold side of things, with typical operation around 170F. This is about 50F colder than most modern cars that shoot for low emissions.....

How did you read this temperature? Do you know the corresponding oil temperature? Is it also low? Thanks.

flyboy2160
02-04-2014, 09:56 PM
You guys keep bringing up "possible" leak points in the stock tubing design. Has anyone ever seen one? I think you're shortchanging modern tubing seal design. C'mon, we're only taking an atmosphere range of extra pressure, not a 5000 psi aircraft hydraulic system. I'm not saying there isn't pressure loss in all those bends and lengths, but you'd have to show some leaks before you start rationally worrying about them.

AudiGuy
02-04-2014, 10:02 PM
You guys keep bringing up "possible" leak points in the stock tubing design. Has anyone ever seen one? I think you're shortchanging modern tubing seal design. C'mon, we're only taking an atmosphere range of extra pressure, not a 5000 psi aircraft hydraulic system. I'm not saying there isn't pressure loss in all those bends and lengths, but you'd have to show some leaks before you start rationally worrying about them.
Without even looking at the system I can tell you it's likely got joints that are compromised. Not to mention the system wasn't designed for elevated boost pressures. Plastic turns to garbage when going through 100s-1000s of heat cycles. The less joints, the better.

BecauseRacecar
02-04-2014, 10:28 PM
I too have been curious about the intercoolers - I have heard that the stock system is leaky, and then I notice that my boost only goes up to ~15 PSI or so in sport mode.
Sometimes it will briefly peak at 18.
Then again, the average temperature around here is right around freezing, so maybe the ECU is compensating that by dumping boost?

OR, I have a boost leak in one of the joints...


Okay, back to the point...
I guess what I'm saying, is that I too would be interested in a piping kit that lets me keep my stock intercoolers (or new ones, but in the same location).


Besides, if I got a FMIC, what would I do with those side vents? :highly_amused:

ksig421
02-04-2014, 10:39 PM
I would also be very interested in upgrading the piping and keeping the stock intercoolers as well.

Tweak
02-04-2014, 11:15 PM
I would also be very interested in upgrading the piping and keeping the stock intercoolers as well.

Sounds more appealing to me than changing the unit to a FMIC, also cheaper which makes it a very attractive option.

Ryephile
02-04-2014, 11:21 PM
You guys keep bringing up "possible" leak points in the stock tubing design. Has anyone ever seen one? I think you're shortchanging modern tubing seal design. C'mon, we're only taking an atmosphere range of extra pressure, not a 5000 psi aircraft hydraulic system. I'm not saying there isn't pressure loss in all those bends and lengths, but you'd have to show some leaks before you start rationally worrying about them.

This catastrophe?

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5526/10719172853_ae82502c10_o.jpg (http://flic.kr/p/hkdyD4)


here's a close-up of one of the leak-points. If you slide the mating connection into it, it's plain as day it's as leaky like throwing a hotdog down a hallway. There are actually only 2 of these breezy connections on the stock IC tubing, but two leaks are enough to ruin the party.

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3678/10718890825_4384bccd49_o.jpg (http://flic.kr/p/hkc7Nv)

shadowshaggy
02-04-2014, 11:30 PM
So Ryephile, you haven't reinvented the wheel here yet?

I think one could order a few pieces of IC tubing (silicone) and get after it. Would only be about $200 and a little bit of time.

Fiat500USA
02-05-2014, 12:40 AM
Of course the routing, length, amount of possible leak points are all factors. The idea is to strengthen the weak points in your stock configuration. Even though this is a new platform for me, there are certain principles that will remain constants. In particular "too many potential leak areas". The fix is to construct your path in as few pieces as possible. If you have 8 sections of plastic that don't seem to keep an adequate seal, you make fewer (longer) pipes out of metal and attach them with high quality silicone. That approach with side mounts that are a little denser and of higher quality, and you might not need to compromise flow through the radiator.

I live in Florida, where it's hotter than hell 90% of the year. Coolant temps are important and have a huge impact on my performance.

This is the reason for the twin intercoolers. I talked to an Abarth engineer and the following is the takeaway from the conversation. We have to remember the majority of people out there care more about a 5 degree difference in A/C performance than gaining 5 HP. The NAFTA Abarth had more than 2 million miles of reliability and durability evaluations in the labs, proving grounds, race tracks and on public roads in various climates. This is in addition to all initial the testing done on the Euro Abarth (which was also repeated on the NAFTA car). Particular attention was paid to the cooling system for the harsher North American climate. It's about priorities. If performance is paramount, a well designed direct path IC is hard to beat. The OEM has to build to the broadest section of the population and not just the hard core performance enthusiast, though.

Personally, I think there is plenty of reserve cooling capacity built into the car and the only issue would maybe be higher A/C cabin temperatures in harsher climates. I also think the cowling in front of the radiator/condenser could be modified or even a fan added (?) to help regain some of the lost thermal efficiency. Redoing the stock IC piping is also interesting, but there is a lot piping and quality materials aren't cheap.

Now that the FMICs are out there, we have to wait to hear from folks in harsh climates how the A/C performance is. There may be no noticeable difference. Sought of like slightly overclocking quality computer hardware, done correctly there isn't much of a downside.

shadowshaggy
02-05-2014, 12:52 AM
Hit the nail right on the head Sir. I'm gonna take a stab at the intercooler tubing rework eventually. The silicone tubing isn't too expensive, a little spare cash to develop a configuration and then ship it off to someone who makes silicone hoses, and have a formed hose made.

shadowshaggy
02-05-2014, 12:54 AM
Would anyone be interested in this setup for $400? Maybe a little less, but that outta cover it. Just an idea, we'll cross that bridge soon enough guys.

AudiGuy
02-05-2014, 09:38 AM
Would anyone be interested in this setup for $400? Maybe a little less, but that outta cover it. Just an idea, we'll cross that bridge soon enough guys.

I like where this is headed homie. We need to take an honest look at the rats nest Fiat has created, and simplify what we can. A lot of these systems are over engineered. Rerouting the IC path isnt too difficult. Its just time consuming. For obvious reasons the "twin" set up is more complicated. It might be possible to just make silicone replacements for the known problem areas. It could prove less challenging than re configuring the entire system.


EDIT:
If we can work out the piping on our own, Im sure I could get Treadstone to make us a few pairs of quality upgraded twins.

ksig421
02-05-2014, 09:54 AM
Would anyone be interested in this setup for $400? Maybe a little less, but that outta cover it. Just an idea, we'll cross that bridge soon enough guys.

I would be interested! Keep us posted.

Ryephile
02-05-2014, 11:40 AM
So Ryephile, you haven't reinvented the wheel here yet?

I think one could order a few pieces of IC tubing (silicone) and get after it. Would only be about $200 and a little bit of time.

Nope, I let ATM do the legwork on this one. Their FMIC transformed the car more than the evap boost leak fix and the MPx throttle body. Very impressive.

That said, a pair of replacement tubes for the stock leakers is plausible and should be relatively inexpensive. It makes me wonder if it could be done simply with some straight section silicone.

BecauseRacecar
02-05-2014, 12:02 PM
Would anyone be interested in this setup for $400? Maybe a little less, but that outta cover it. Just an idea, we'll cross that bridge soon enough guys.
Me +1

skyx39
02-05-2014, 12:16 PM
I too have been curious about the intercoolers - I have heard that the stock system is leaky, and then I notice that my boost only goes up to ~15 PSI or so in sport mode.
Sometimes it will briefly peak at 18.
Then again, the average temperature around here is right around freezing, so maybe the ECU is compensating that by dumping boost?

OR, I have a boost leak in one of the joints...


Okay, back to the point...
I guess what I'm saying, is that I too would be interested in a piping kit that lets me keep my stock intercoolers (or new ones, but in the same location).


Besides, if I got a FMIC, what would I do with those side vents? :highly_amused:

It's normal to build less boost in cold temperatures. Colder air = denser air, so you don't need as much. A 3psi difference isn't bad.

AudiGuy
02-05-2014, 12:29 PM
Any of you guys have any problems with a FMIC affecting your warranty? Thats another concern of mine.

the stig
02-05-2014, 12:32 PM
Nope, I let ATM do the legwork on this one. Their FMIC transformed the car more than the evap boost leak fix and the MPx throttle body. Very impressive.

That said, a pair of replacement tubes for the stock leakers is plausible and should be relatively inexpensive. It makes me wonder if it could be done simply with some straight section silicone.
I'm getting an ATM fmic installed on Friday. I was very skeptical about getting a fmic. When I saw a stock IC that was taken out of an Abarth it was much easier to be converted to the idea of getting rid of the stock IC. There are just to many bends, to much volume, and to many fittings to leak in the stock design. John at Tork motorsports is a big fan of the fmic option. He convinced me that overheating will absolutly not be a problem and throttle responce will be much improved plus will provide a bit more power. Since the fmic option hasn't resulted in cooling problems so far it doesn't seem like a bad way to go. I trust John's opinion enough that I'm going to give the fmic a shot. Replacing the stock pipes and hoses with a better design is not a bad idea and could save some money for people who want to keep costs down. After all $800 for a fmic is a very significant amount. The hose upgrade might very well be better than stock and worth doing but I don't believe that it would really be optimal. There will still be lots of bends and more overall volume.

redred
02-05-2014, 12:36 PM
Any of you guys have any problems with a FMIC affecting your warranty? Thats another concern of mine.

I was "informed" by a Fiat tech that if the intercooler system is "upgraded" on this car, that will void the warranty for the entire turbo system. It will not affect the warranty on the drivetrain, engine, or other parts of the car. So if you blow the turbo and you have a FMIC installed (or they can find evidence of one being installed at some point), kiss your warranty turbo replacement goodbye.

the stig
02-05-2014, 12:42 PM
This catastrophe?

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5526/10719172853_ae82502c10_o.jpg (http://flic.kr/p/hkdyD4)


here's a close-up of one of the leak-points. If you slide the mating connection into it, it's plain as day it's as leaky like throwing a hotdog down a hallway. There are actually only 2 of these breezy connections on the stock IC tubing, but two leaks are enough to ruin the party.

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3678/10718890825_4384bccd49_o.jpg (http://flic.kr/p/hkc7Nv)
Thanks for posting a picture of that ugly looking Rube Goldberg machine mess. Did you happen to weigh it? I bet the alloy fmic's are several pounds lighter.

AudiGuy
02-05-2014, 12:53 PM
Thanks for posting a picture of that ugly looking Rube Goldberg machine mess. Did you happen to weigh it? I bet the alloy fmic's are several pounds lighter.

Agreed, The pics help. What if we just started out by replacing the 2 known leak points with a silicone sleeve and see how much of an improvement there is? You cant measure the systems potential until its actually leak free.

AudiGuy
02-05-2014, 12:55 PM
Agreed, The pics help. What if we just started out by replacing the 2 known leak points with a silicone sleeve and see how much of an improvement there is? You cant measure the systems potential until its actually leak free.

Has anyone actually pressure tested the system for leaks?

shadowshaggy
02-05-2014, 02:29 PM
It "leaks" down because of volume. One piece from turbo to passenger IC; one from passenger - driver IC; one piece to TB; = half the current tubing volume. So would it be worth it for a few hundred bucks, definitely. With real hose clamps and real piping rather than cast nonsense and back and forth crap, it'll be way better. Maybe not the same response as FMIC, but un-f*ing the catastrophe shouldn't cause any warranty issues. If anything, they should recall that nonsense and re-pipe the IC setup if nothing else.

Abarth Five O
02-05-2014, 02:48 PM
I'm all for weight savings in the front end too.

shadowshaggy
02-05-2014, 02:53 PM
The SMIC and FMIC has less than a 1lb difference, you sub tubing for core volume basically. Cooling volume is more effective use of space than tubing. Again, this would result in one (all size approximate, haven't measured exact just yet) from the Turbo to the passenger side of 26", with 2/3 bends; one from the passenger IC to driver IC 36" with 2 slight bends; one from driver IC to the TB 30" with 3/4 small bends. I think I can get away with that, but again - a tape measure and piping in hand go way further than estimates.

AudiGuy
02-05-2014, 03:02 PM
It "leaks" down because of volume. One piece from turbo to passenger IC; one from passenger - driver IC; one piece to TB; = half the current tubing volume. So would it be worth it for a few hundred bucks, definitely. With real hose clamps and real piping rather than cast nonsense and back and forth crap, it'll be way better. Maybe not the same response as FMIC, but un-f*ing the catastrophe shouldn't cause any warranty issues. If anything, they should recall that nonsense and re-pipe the IC setup if nothing else.

Did I read something about a TSB/possible recall over this? Or was it about the evap..?

shadowshaggy
02-05-2014, 03:06 PM
My two cents after working in the dealer environment for several years, they recall things that make no sense but don't commit to good ideas unless it's mentioned by someone well respected within the company - like an engineer.

I said they should do a recall or TSB over this, doubtful they will, but should - would mean we don't have to buy it :)

Maybe after a working prototype, I'll hand over my configuration to a company for production. Oh LuckyJaynowatRRMinsteadofelsewhere, interested? gr_grin

AudiGuy
02-05-2014, 03:20 PM
My two cents after working in the dealer environment for several years, they recall things that make no sense but don't commit to good ideas unless it's mentioned by someone well respected within the company - like an engineer.

I said they should do a recall or TSB over this, doubtful they will, but should - would mean we don't have to buy it :)

Maybe after a working prototype, I'll hand over my configuration to a company for production. Oh LuckyJaynowatRRMinsteadofelsewhere, interested? gr_grin

LEts get it done. I have some pretty good connections with Fiat Corp. Id be willing to help plead our case.

shadowshaggy
02-05-2014, 03:26 PM
Let's wait until it is not, lets say freezing ass cold out, and then I'll be all over it.

AudiGuy
02-05-2014, 03:38 PM
Let's wait until it is not, lets say freezing ass cold out, and then I'll be all over it.

You need a heated garage homie

shadowshaggy
02-05-2014, 03:41 PM
No, I need a garage period....stupid house we bought came with a carport...working on solving that issue though. Too cold to be doing destruction also, dangit. I can borrow your's though right :)

lillo24
02-05-2014, 03:53 PM
+1

Ryephile
02-05-2014, 04:09 PM
You need a heated garage homie

Word up. Heated, insulated, with a lift, air, mad lighting, and a hellla-sweet workbench too. :emmersed:

shadowshaggy
02-05-2014, 04:10 PM
Word up. Heated, insulated, with a lift, air, mad lighting, and a hellla-sweet workbench too. :emmersed:

Think I'm gonna crash at your house for a few weeks then gr_grin

Ryephile
02-05-2014, 04:21 PM
Think I'm gonna crash at your house for a few weeks then gr_grin

Oh, I was just dreaming there! My actual garage is nothing special. :dunce: ...besides the distributed compressed air and a cool workbench. ...and my lighting is OK but not amazing.

I'll shut up now. nopity

P.S. my garage currently has a nice veneer of salt and ice and gross dirt where the Abarth stays the night. Can't wait 'til spring to mop that crap out.

AudiGuy
02-05-2014, 04:30 PM
My garage is always open for work. We dont have cold weather :)

Chico Valdez
02-05-2014, 04:32 PM
Did Fiat consider using a series configuration instead of the parallel?
I would think with two larger IC cores and single tubes the volume would remain largely similar with less bends and flow restriction.
Either way, keeping the exchangers in unrestricted airflow is best.
I'm not a big fan of IC/AC condenser/radiator setups, but do understand packaging requirements. Everything is a compromise.
I would prefer a setup that impedes as little as possible on radiator area. Why not a series configuration with the outboard ic's and a low-profile front-mount?

shadowshaggy
02-05-2014, 04:38 PM
Well, that's my game plan. Gonna order a cheap setup online for piping and silicone elbows and such, engineer a solution and then get it properly done with silicone tubing - I think, or it'll have pipes and a few silicone pieces. Obviously, the only piece that really needs to be aluminum pipe is the one that runs from side to side similar to the factory pipe run.

AudiGuy
02-05-2014, 04:44 PM
Well, that's my game plan. Gonna order a cheap setup online for piping and silicone elbows and such, engineer a solution and then get it properly done with silicone tubing - I think, or it'll have pipes and a few silicone pieces. Obviously, the only piece that really needs to be aluminum pipe is the one that runs from side to side similar to the factory pipe run.
Silicone could easily cost a small fortune by the time youre done. I would seriously consider steel or aluminum. At least for mock up.

shadowshaggy
02-05-2014, 04:48 PM
I know this, I want to use aluminum piping with silicone elbows for the mock up; about $150ish. Having the formed silicone hoses is what's expensive, but stock 45 degree elbows are cheap ;)

I don't care to spend about $100 to see something better come out, and I'm sure whatever vendor I opt to work with for production will work out a really good deal with me for handing them a ready to sell product :)

Chico Valdez
02-05-2014, 05:03 PM
Well, that's my game plan.
Ah! Gotcha! I must've missed that li'l concept somehow! Not the first time, probably won't be the last! Lol!:ghost:
Do carry on! :D

BecauseRacecar
02-05-2014, 05:44 PM
It's normal to build less boost in cold temperatures. Colder air = denser air, so you don't need as much. A 3psi difference isn't bad.

Thanks for the re-assurance! I feel better now.

The more I think about it, the more I agree.


On takeoff, our turbine N1's are only 90% or so in the winter, and in the summer they're up to 116+%.
We're limited by thrust on the fan bearing, not speed of the turbine (until 118% or so). And it's because of air density.

I suppose my car's turbo would be the same. I guess the ECU is just trying to hit a target torque/hp value, just like the jet's thrust computer/FADEC calculating for set power.

Sorry about the derp!


----------



Has anyone actually pressure tested the system for leaks?

I built a pressurization tester that hooks onto the turbo inlet. Standard Schrader valve for hooking up a bike pump.

When it warms up outside, I'm going to pinch/cap the boost bypass (evap emissions system) and pressurize the system (goal is 20~30 PSI) to check everything out.

Will report back with results...


EDIT: IF anyone wants to borrow said tester/adapter, just PM me and I'll mail it to ya. :)

AudiGuy
02-05-2014, 07:03 PM
Thanks for the re-assurance! I feel better now.

The more I think about it, the more I agree.


On takeoff, our turbine N1's are only 90% or so in the winter, and in the summer they're up to 116+%.
We're limited by thrust on the fan bearing, not speed of the turbine (until 118% or so). And it's because of air density.

I suppose my car's turbo would be the same. I guess the ECU is just trying to hit a target torque/hp value, just like the jet's thrust computer/FADEC calculating for set power.

Sorry about the derp!


----------




I built a pressurization tester that hooks onto the turbo inlet. Standard Schrader valve for hooking up a bike pump.

When it warms up outside, I'm going to pinch/cap the boost bypass (evap emissions system) and pressurize the system (goal is 20~30 PSI) to check everything out.

Will report back with results...


EDIT: IF anyone wants to borrow said tester/adapter, just PM me and I'll mail it to ya. :)

Colder denser air will always be more efficient and make more power. I call it turbo weather.

Unfortunately I don think your Schrader valve is going to work. The problem is a lack of volume through such a small orifice. By the time air starts leaking through the valve train, you will have lost most of you pressure. What you need is an air chuck with a valve. That way you can get enough air in the system to build pressure. When I first started pressure testing the TT, I found this out. Couldn't figure out why I wasn't able to pressurize the system. After I made a better tester, it was a piece of cake. Also, take note of your PCV routing. Your crankcase and valve cover breathers should be plugged while testing. Otherwise you will blow the caught oil and water vapors back into your intake track. If you do it without blocking them off, you will crap your pants when you see the giant ploom of smoke out of the tail pipes. As a general rule of thumb, raise your pressure gradually. Big leaks should be the first thing you notice. As for a target max pressure, aim for a pressure just barely above the max output of the turbo. That way you have thoroughly tested it in its effective range.

BecauseRacecar
02-05-2014, 09:51 PM
I learned so much in this post, that I'm just gonna leave the pressure tester alone for awhile.
A long while.

Thanks! :emmersed:
Colder denser air will always be more efficient and make more power. I call it turbo weather.

Unfortunately I don think your Schrader valve is going to work. The problem is a lack of volume through such a small orifice. By the time air starts leaking through the valve train, you will have lost most of you pressure. What you need is an air chuck with a valve. That way you can get enough air in the system to build pressure. When I first started pressure testing the TT, I found this out. Couldn't figure out why I wasn't able to pressurize the system. After I made a better tester, it was a piece of cake. Also, take note of your PCV routing. Your crankcase and valve cover breathers should be plugged while testing. Otherwise you will blow the caught oil and water vapors back into your intake track. If you do it without blocking them off, you will crap your pants when you see the giant ploom of smoke out of the tail pipes. As a general rule of thumb, raise your pressure gradually. Big leaks should be the first thing you notice. As for a target max pressure, aim for a pressure just barely above the max output of the turbo. That way you have thoroughly tested it in its effective range.

AudiGuy
02-05-2014, 10:23 PM
I learned so much in this post, that I'm just gonna leave the pressure tester alone for awhile.
A long while.

Thanks! :emmersed:

Don't be intimidated by it. It's a must

Here's what I use.

http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp199/Eskougor/2FD4F943-FB3E-45AE-AB45-799F702BEF5D.jpg (http://s411.photobucket.com/user/Eskougor/media/2FD4F943-FB3E-45AE-AB45-799F702BEF5D.jpg.html)

http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp199/Eskougor/7420392E-BDDD-4282-9CAD-D995A7C33323.jpg (http://s411.photobucket.com/user/Eskougor/media/7420392E-BDDD-4282-9CAD-D995A7C33323.jpg.html)

http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp199/Eskougor/A6DFA82C-8D9A-4700-ADC3-42556453EA3A.jpg (http://s411.photobucket.com/user/Eskougor/media/A6DFA82C-8D9A-4700-ADC3-42556453EA3A.jpg.html)

It's a plastic cap from the plumbing section at Home Depot with a threaded air valve. Simple on and off turn of the valve. I use JB welds "water weld" to seal up the cracks and threads. It's important to keep an air tight setup. It's hard to hear leaks when your equipment makes noise. I try to make it a habit to pressure test the intake any time I do something with the plumbing. It's a good way to know that you are leak free. This platform is new so there arent too many issues yet. But plastic hoses and lines turn to crap under the stress of fluctuating boost pressures and high turbo engine bay heat. Small frame turbos produce a LOT of heat. I'm not looking forward to having to replace oem stuff on this car. But it's inevitable.

lenswerks
02-05-2014, 11:11 PM
I learned so much in this post, that I'm just gonna leave the pressure tester alone for awhile.
A long while.

Thanks! :emmersed:

If you do a test be aware of safety for you and your engine, don't test to 30PSI - you don't need to go that high and get a proper tester so you don't put your eye out.

http://www.turboboostleaktesters.com/servlet/the-HOW-TO-BOOST-LEAK-TEST-101/Categories

BecauseRacecar
02-05-2014, 11:22 PM
Don't be intimidated by it. It's a must

Here's what I use.
[...]

Mine's the same setup, but without the air chuck [and a schrader valve instead].
EDIT: And using a silicone coupler of course to attach directly to the turbo inlet..


9618

9619


Did some more thinking, which may be dangerous:

I was under the impression that ALL the cylinder intake valves are closed when the engine is not running, due to the MultiAir being depressurized.[?]
And doesn't the PCV/crankcase/etc all vent upstream into the inlet of the turbo [?], into the intake, which I would be disconnecting anyway [?].

I'll need to do more research. I'm quite grateful you caught me before things got hilarious, though..


Anyways, it seems like I'll need to get my hands on a compressor of sorts. With an LP regulator. Maybe Home Depot rents those. :)

Much of my experience is with systems running at 120-5000 PSI [scuba regulator repair/tuning, paintball markers, aircraft O2 systems, and aircraft hydraulic systems], so I'm re-learning some things!

----------

Lenswerks - Thanks for the link! The one I built is exactly like theirs, silicone couplers, clamps, PVC end cap... but with the wrong valve. Need a chuck fitting. So I'll have to fix that.

AudiGuy
02-06-2014, 12:23 AM
Mine's the same setup, but without the air chuck [and a schrader valve instead].
EDIT: And using a silicone coupler of course to attach directly to the turbo inlet..


9618

9619


Did some more thinking, which may be dangerous:

I was under the impression that ALL the cylinder intake valves are closed when the engine is not running, due to the MultiAir being depressurized.[?]
And doesn't the PCV/crankcase/etc all vent upstream into the inlet of the turbo [?], into the intake, which I would be disconnecting anyway [?].

I'll need to do more research. I'm quite grateful you caught me before things got hilarious, though..


Anyways, it seems like I'll need to get my hands on a compressor of sorts. With an LP regulator. Maybe Home Depot rents those. :)

Much of my experience is with systems running at 120-5000 PSI [scuba regulator repair/tuning, paintball markers, aircraft O2 systems, and aircraft hydraulic systems], so I'm re-learning some things!

----------

Lenswerks - Thanks for the link! The one I built is exactly like theirs, silicone couplers, clamps, PVC end cap... but with the wrong valve. Need a chuck fitting. So I'll have to fix that.

No, not all valves should be closed (unless there is some sort of magic I am unfamiliar with).

The crankcase gases will come from your crank case and your valve cover and will be routed back to your intake (and possibly your oil pan depending on how the system is run). The force that pulls that nastiness is vacuum created by the engine. You run a catch can in between your crank case and your intake in order to allow the vacuum from the turbo to help pull the gases and water vapors into the catch can. Ideally all of that junk would be caught in a can and dumped.