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TorkMe
10-15-2013, 08:14 PM
Should we have a Stage 1 tune and Stage 2 tune or just offer one?

I have been undecided what I should do.

The Stage 1 tune will run great with your basic bolt-on's but it would be missing the huge power bump from running a catless downpipe.

Stage 2 tune will embrace the catless downpipe with power and torque gains across the curve.

Some will want to have the power but don't want to add noisy exhaust or an intake and that will be hard to tune offer the "maximum" for those that have all the mods.

What should we do?

Please note that we have to tune for each additional item added to the car. So the test car is kept stock, ran on 91 octane then ran on 93 octane. Then we add one part, run the car on the dyno and check the tune... add another part and run it on the dyno watching the values making sure we don't have to make any changes. We have to do this for both 91 and 93 octane. I have had the car on the dyno for 3 weeks now, making changes, unlocking tables, putting down some pretty good numbers. I want to have some feed back before we move forward with breaking the tunes up into Stage 1 and Stage 2 before I spend another 100 hours with the car on the dyno.

Thanks,

John

krayzielilsmoki
10-15-2013, 08:22 PM
I think the stage 1 and stage 2 is a great idea. The stage one would be for people that would otherwise just buy a chip, they don't want to mess with their car too much just want a bit more power. The stage 2 is for the ones that dont mind adding a few extra parts.
I know you talked about having a checklist of sort where you would choose what parts you have on the car so that the tune can be a little more tailored for that setup.
If you can offer the stage 1 and stage 2 with that extra customization for a couple different parts I think that will be perfect.

I got my downpipe and am now patiently (impatiently) waiting that beast of a tune now referred to as the stage 2 tune.

mr_robs
10-15-2013, 08:25 PM
I personally want a tune that accommodates and takes advantage of the catless DP. But i know for a fact that many people on here have no plans of going catless. I would hate to see just a 1 size fits all tune after all the work you guys have put in. I vote for a simple stage 1, for people with an intake and want upped boost/increased features from a piggy back. And then a tune for the catles DP, with intake, intercooler, and whatever else you think the tune would need (injectors, throttle body?). Id also like to add in incase you havent thought about it - that no lift shift and launch control would be an amazing bonus to a stage 2 tune.

TorkMe
10-15-2013, 08:26 PM
I think the stage 1 and stage 2 is a great idea. The stage one would be for people that would otherwise just buy a chip, they don't want to mess with their car too much just want a bit more power. The stage 2 is for the ones that dont mind adding a few extra parts.
I know you talked about having a checklist of sort where you would choose what parts you have on the car so that the tune can be a little more tailored for that setup.
If you can offer the stage 1 and stage 2 with that extra customization for a couple different parts I think that will be perfect.

I got my downpipe and am now patiently (impatiently) waiting that beast of a tune now referred to as the stage 2 tune.

All our tune sheets have a list of mods and other items attached so we can build a tune that is tailored to the customers needs/area/driving style/fuel octane. It would still be there for the S1 and S2 options. Its just that the Stage 2 would require a few of the mods before you could run the car on the Stage 2.

TorkMe
10-15-2013, 08:29 PM
I personally want a tune that accommodates and takes advantage of the catless DP. But i know for a fact that many people on here have no plans of going catless. I would hate to see just a 1 size fits all tune after all the work you guys have put in. I vote for a simple stage 1, for people with an intake and want upped boost/increased features from a piggy back. And then a tune for the catles DP, with intake, intercooler, and whatever else you think the tune would need (injectors, throttle body?). Id also like to add in incase you havent thought about it - that no lift shift and launch control would be an amazing bonus to a stage 2 tune.

No lift shift is just about figured out and when we have the time we will be working on the launch control. We are going to stick with the soft hit launch control for right now because we don't know how a hard hitting system will effect the turbo. The little turbo spins up hard enough, I don't see a need to try and break it, LOL!

mr_robs
10-15-2013, 09:09 PM
No lift shift is just about figured out and when we have the time we will be working on the launch control. We are going to stick with the soft hit launch control for right now because we don't know how a hard hitting system will effect the turbo. The little turbo spins up hard enough, I don't see a need to try and break it, LOL!

Thank you! This is exactly what i wanted to hear! Yes no sense in trying to break stuff hahaha.

ScorpionSkins.com
10-15-2013, 09:59 PM
Speaking from a personal perspective, I'd appreciate a tune that runs on 91 Octane (The only grade higher that's most commonly found in Ontario is 94 grade, but it's not a pure grade like the 91. It's mixed down with 10% ethanol content, so I generally prefer to avoid it).

I don't ever intend to ever install a catless downpipe, considering the legal issues and increased noise factor. I do however plan to install an intake, front mount intercooler, and perhaps a high-flow downpipe at some point in the future.

I'd prefer to steer towards the side of caution to maintain component reliability and lifespan, and wouldn't want to compromise too much of it in favor of additional gains. If possible, a tune within the range of 200-220 hp would be more than satisfactory.

On my Mini S, I was running a tune catered to support Stage 1 + FMIC on my Cobb Accessport. It was broken down into the following options, each allowing either a 91 or 93 Octane variant, with either a linear or stock throttle map option:


Stage 1 - (Stock vehicle or one with minimal mods)
Stage 1 + FMIC - (Stock or minimal mods + Uprated FMIC)
Stage 2 - (Uprated FMIC + High Flow or Catless Downpipe)
Stage 3 - (Uprated FMIC + High Flow or Catless Downpipe + Larger diameter exhaust)


The difference between each step was approximately 10 HP, give or take, with the Stage 1 offering 30 HP over stock.

I'm only one individual, but feel free to use this information as necessary to formulate a decision on your product offerings. :)

mneuman916
10-15-2013, 10:45 PM
Should we have a Stage 1 tune and Stage 2 tune or just offer one?

I have been undecided what I should do.

The Stage 1 tune will run great with your basic bolt-on's but it would be missing the huge power bump from running a catless downpipe.

Stage 2 tune will embrace the catless downpipe with power and torque gains across the curve.

Some will want to have the power but don't want to add noisy exhaust or an intake and that will be hard to tune offer the "maximum" for those that have all the mods.

What should we do?

Please note that we have to tune for each additional item added to the car. So the test car is kept stock, ran on 91 octane then ran on 93 octane. Then we add one part, run the car on the dyno and check the tune... add another part and run it on the dyno watching the values making sure we don't have to make any changes. We have to do this for both 91 and 93 octane. I have had the car on the dyno for 3 weeks now, making changes, unlocking tables, putting down some pretty good numbers. I want to have some feed back before we move forward with breaking the tunes up into Stage 1 and Stage 2 before I spend another 100 hours with the car on the dyno.

Thanks,

John

From your previous posts in the other thread, I pretty much thought offering both was a no brainer. Why is it suddenly a question at this point? I'm anxious to see the results for both; I just don't understand the sudden change in plans???

SpeedTriple
10-16-2013, 12:48 AM
There's no question it's better to have more choice so the real question is how much people are willing to pay for the stage 1 and 2 tunes and how many people will be buying. That will determine if it's worth the development time.

deathshead
10-16-2013, 09:44 AM
"stock" 93 octane Canned tune.
"stock" Ninny California bad gas tune
"Catless DP/Bolt on tune (with enough meat on the bone to go along with with additional upgrades)
"Custom"

:0

TorkMe
10-16-2013, 02:18 PM
From your previous posts in the other thread, I pretty much thought offering both was a no brainer. Why is it suddenly a question at this point? I'm anxious to see the results for both; I just don't understand the sudden change in plans???

I need to spend another 100 hours on the Stage 2 tune, install 10 hours worth of parts, and find additional maps to make the most of it. If there is no market for a Stage 2 tune... its a waste of time, money and resources.

TorkMe
10-16-2013, 02:18 PM
There's no question it's better to have more choice so the real question is how much people are willing to pay for the stage 1 and 2 tunes and how many people will be buying. That will determine if it's worth the development time.

^ My point!

TorkMe
10-16-2013, 02:26 PM
Speaking from a personal perspective, I'd appreciate a tune that runs on 91 Octane (The only grade higher that's most commonly found in Ontario is 94 grade, but it's not a pure grade like the 91. It's mixed down with 10% ethanol content, so I generally prefer to avoid it).

I don't ever intend to ever install a catless downpipe, considering the legal issues and increased noise factor. I do however plan to install an intake, front mount intercooler, and perhaps a high-flow downpipe at some point in the future.

I'd prefer to steer towards the side of caution to maintain component reliability and lifespan, and wouldn't want to compromise too much of it in favor of additional gains. If possible, a tune within the range of 200-220 hp would be more than satisfactory.

On my Mini S, I was running a tune catered to support Stage 1 + FMIC on my Cobb Accessport. It was broken down into the following options, each allowing either a 91 or 93 Octane variant, with either a linear or stock throttle map option:


Stage 1 - (Stock vehicle or one with minimal mods)
Stage 1 + FMIC - (Stock or minimal mods + Uprated FMIC)
Stage 2 - (Uprated FMIC + High Flow or Catless Downpipe)
Stage 3 - (Uprated FMIC + High Flow or Catless Downpipe + Larger diameter exhaust)


The difference between each step was approximately 10 HP, give or take, with the Stage 1 offering 30 HP over stock.

I'm only one individual, but feel free to use this information as necessary to formulate a decision on your product offerings. :)

200 hp has already been done if you calculate it at the crank. If you want 200 to 220 wheel HP, that might be tough to have and keep the lifespan and component reliability near stock levels. You have to remember that our current tune is already posting 40% gains over the stock torque and 25% gains over stock horsepower. If we were to make 220 WHP vs stock and lets say that was at 6,000 RPM. That would be over a 50% gain in power!!!

It would appear that the "200" number has been the magic number everyone wants. Please understand that 200 HP is 142 HP per liter! That is insane when you take into the effect that we are still running on a bone stock car.

I will give it two more days on the stock car and see if we can make 200 WHP (bone stock car). If we can, then making a S2 tune that uses a downpipe, intake and throttle body that pushes the car to 220 or 230 WHP should be easy.

TorkMe
10-16-2013, 02:29 PM
"stock" 93 octane Canned tune.
"stock" Ninny California bad gas tune
"Catless DP/Bolt on tune (with enough meat on the bone to go along with with additional upgrades)
"Custom"

:0

All our tunes are set up for 91 and 93 octane.
Most will have a stock car that opt for a tune running one of the two octane levels, easy and we pretty much have that tune done.
Catless, bolt-on tune, well we can really unlock some power if we go that route!
Custom, easy... we just need the car at our facility.

shagghie
10-16-2013, 04:36 PM
200 hp has already been done if you calculate it at the crank. If you want 200 to 220 wheel HP, that might be tough to have and keep the lifespan and component reliability near stock levels. You have to remember that our current tune is already posting 40% gains over the stock torque and 25% gains over stock horsepower. If we were to make 220 WHP vs stock and lets say that was at 6,000 RPM. That would be over a 50% gain in power!!!

It would appear that the "200" number has been the magic number everyone wants. Please understand that 200 HP is 142 HP per liter! That is insane when you take into the effect that we are still running on a bone stock car.

I will give it two more days on the stock car and see if we can make 200 WHP (bone stock car). If we can, then making a S2 tune that uses a downpipe, intake and throttle body that pushes the car to 220 or 230 WHP should be easy.

This is interesting... just based on my own experience and those I've been tracking on this forum, most everyone seems to go the hardware mod route first and save the piggyback for last or later. Is the market really that big for people that just want a tune but nothing else? The guys that did run the TMC or MM boxes early on in this forum that didn't have any other mods all complained of the same thing: the car would fall on it's nose north of 3800-4000 rpms, or go into limp mode if the TMC settings were too high (or in some cases with the MM box when it was set to 80%). In my own experience, the #1 thing this car needs (even with stock tune) is tons of air on the intake side of the equation. I did a CAI (+15hp), followed by the MPx TB (+6hp). Next I fixed boost leaks with the check valve and BOV mods. In every case the impact of the mod felt amazing... a distinctly noticeable increase in either power, response or drive-ability through the RPM band. And all of this was before a tune. And even after getting the tune the mod that has made the biggest difference so far was the FMIC = holy crap. And that's with the MM box set to 'only' "58%". (meaning, once again, the hardware change made a massive difference). Heck even the guy doing a 13.6 1/4 mile only had a bigger turbo, injectors and e85...and that was on a stock tune.
Racing side by side with another owner that had a TMC box but no other mods, we were neck and neck before I ever got a piggyback, with him barely edging out through the gears through 4th.
That's a long way to say that I can't imagine there are too many of us in the market left that are in the position of wanting a tune but no hardware mods. I could see that maybe for higher end luxury cars and cars where the warranty and included service are paramount to the ownership experience...but not for these Abarths. Hope that makes sense.
I know you aren't suggesting we should mod our hardware (far from it!), but I am wondering, why there is the effort or focus on seeing how much power you can get from a stock hardware car? Just tossing out some of my internal thoughts as I read the last two posts above, and struck a note of curiosity / intrigue is all. Meant as an earnest question vs. a challenge or argument.

Abarth Phreak
10-16-2013, 05:21 PM
"stock" 93 octane Canned tune.
"stock" Ninny California bad gas tune
"Catless DP/Bolt on tune (with enough meat on the bone to go along with with additional upgrades)
"Custom"

:0

We have 100 octane here in California at the pump...let it go already....signwerd.

Abarth Phreak
10-16-2013, 05:27 PM
Tork, get the stage 1 released....then go for the 2 so it is not all so draining at once. The stage 1 crowd WILL follow you to the 2. For those that bought the stage 1, you could give them a partial credit when upgrading to the 2. Stage 1 will still work for the 2s who cant wait right?

I myself will be going for the 2, but understanding the time needed to finalize the products, will most likely swing for the 1 first.

The real question is what are your price points???

mr_robs
10-16-2013, 08:37 PM
I have a TMC piggyback unit right now. The only tune i will buy next will be a full reflash to take advantage of catless DP and most likely FMIC.

ScorpionSkins.com
10-17-2013, 12:56 AM
200 hp has already been done if you calculate it at the crank. If you want 200 to 220 wheel HP, that might be tough to have and keep the lifespan and component reliability near stock levels. You have to remember that our current tune is already posting 40% gains over the stock torque and 25% gains over stock horsepower. If we were to make 220 WHP vs stock and lets say that was at 6,000 RPM. That would be over a 50% gain in power!!!

It would appear that the "200" number has been the magic number everyone wants. Please understand that 200 HP is 142 HP per liter! That is insane when you take into the effect that we are still running on a bone stock car.

I will give it two more days on the stock car and see if we can make 200 WHP (bone stock car). If we can, then making a S2 tune that uses a downpipe, intake and throttle body that pushes the car to 220 or 230 WHP should be easy.

Thanks for offering some additional details. :) I offered the number as a ball park figure. I'd personally be satisfied with 200HP, which as you mentioned, doesn't go too far in the direction of compromising component reliability. As always, looking forward to the continued developments!

jguerdat
10-17-2013, 09:42 AM
That's a long way to say that I can't imagine there are too many of us in the market left that are in the position of wanting a tune but no hardware mods.

I'll hafta say that I would be in for a "no hardware mod" tune. I may indeed upgrade down the road but right now it's a toss-up between the proposed Stage 1 or a piggy-back. I'm not a believer of cat-less street cars so that may be self-limiting but other mods are decidedly back-burner items for me. Plus, there's a whole crowd out there that isn't posting in this thread (hell, many may not even know about the forum) that can't be discounted.

TorkMe
10-25-2013, 04:52 PM
Tork, get the stage 1 released....then go for the 2 so it is not all so draining at once. The stage 1 crowd WILL follow you to the 2. For those that bought the stage 1, you could give them a partial credit when upgrading to the 2. Stage 1 will still work for the 2s who cant wait right?

I myself will be going for the 2, but understanding the time needed to finalize the products, will most likely swing for the 1 first.

The real question is what are your price points???

We will have a "upgrade" from S1 to S2 that is affordable. There is just to much that goes into the S2 tune to where it wouldn't work on a S1 car. The non catted downpipes make such a huge difference that it makes it very difficult to work the S1 tune into the equation. So... we are going to release both tunes!

Price has been talked about the last few weeks and here is what we have come to:

Stage 1 $595 add $100 for WOT shift and Launch control
Stage 2 $895 (and comes standard with launch control and WOT shift)

All our tunes will come with a sheet that you fill out supplying us with your mods list and desired RPM limiters.

shagghie
10-25-2013, 06:34 PM
We will have a "upgrade" from S1 to S2 that is affordable. There is just to much that goes into the S2 tune to where it wouldn't work on a S1 car. The non catted downpipes make such a huge difference that it makes it very difficult to work the S1 tune into the equation. So... we are going to release both tunes!

Price has been talked about the last few weeks and here is what we have come to:

Stage 1 $595 add $100 for WOT shift and Launch control
Stage 2 $895 (and comes standard with launch control and WOT shift)

All our tunes will come with a sheet that you fill out supplying us with your mods list and desired RPM limiters.

good stuff. What RPM limit do you recommend? I'm assuming that the damn engine will keep making gobs of power all the way till it pops it seems once you let it breath...so we need to finger out what the happy place is of making progressively more power and not risking lean conditions or collisions, etc. What is your target recommended RPM limit?

If we are in California, as long as we have a 2.5" cat-back exhaust, and a 200Cell cat in nice DP with 2.5" exit, we should still be able to run Stage 2 no worries, yeah? I can't run around without a cat out here...

EDIT: IIRC, the Dart guys are only paying $495, which is $100 more than they were paying just a little while ago. Are Abarth guys the only ones that will be paying $100 more, or is price going up across the board regardless of the car? The Dart guys are such cheap bastards, I can't wait to see how they react!

zyxelenator
10-26-2013, 02:25 AM
We will have a "upgrade" from S1 to S2 that is affordable. There is just to much that goes into the S2 tune to where it wouldn't work on a S1 car. The non catted downpipes make such a huge difference that it makes it very difficult to work the S1 tune into the equation. So... we are going to release both tunes!

Price has been talked about the last few weeks and here is what we have come to:

Stage 1 $595 add $100 for WOT shift and Launch control
Stage 2 $895 (and comes standard with launch control and WOT shift)

All our tunes will come with a sheet that you fill out supplying us with your mods list and desired RPM limiters.
Tork, I assume those will work on 500T. Will S2 eliminate CEL that are cat related? i would like to get rid of mine. Any idea what is expected s2 power output and when it will be available for purchase (need to plan when to remote my MM box) and sell it?
Also it would be nice if you post steps for removing factory ecu with pics, it might be easy from a first glance, but they love to put tricky clips and click on connectors on modern cars that love to break. What is estimated time for ECU roundtrip?3 days if shipped overnight?

Yorkman1
10-27-2013, 02:14 AM
Factory flash back in the car today. Omg what a difference. I can't stand it!!!!!n

opiateESP
10-27-2013, 11:19 AM
Factory flash back in the car today. Omg what a difference. I can stand it!!!!!n

Why?!?!

TimAllen
10-27-2013, 12:39 PM
Factory flash back in the car today. Omg what a difference. I can stand it!!!!!n
i hope you mean can't!!

BigT
10-27-2013, 12:43 PM
Yes I just assumed it was a typo. I don't know anyone who can seriously say with a straight face... the factory Abarth tune is amazing...

opiateESP
10-27-2013, 12:49 PM
I think he meant I can't stand it

LittleEvil
10-28-2013, 09:30 AM
Wow pricey, miss my Cobb days where you pay $495 for a awesome unit with data-logs and gives you the opportunity to switch maps on the fly via obd2 port, you can upgrade parts and simply reflash your car again in 7min. Sell your car? sell your accesport and get some money back. And when you want a real custom dyno tune you go see a pro tuner, yes you'll pay another $400-$500 bucks but at $895 for a stage 2 it adds up to be the same lol with more flexibility with the AP. These prices just aggravate me, parts are all over priced across the board, I understand the market is small but jesus. Even Hondata flashes are 295. Guess we gotta pay for these exotics we drive -___-. Sadly i'll still be paying for this lol but I wont be feeling happy about it, **** better be worth it.

Yorkman1
10-28-2013, 12:57 PM
Yea I can't stand it. We are working on the stage 2 and it's crazy how the S1 is such a big difference. Stock is soooo slow

TorkMe
10-28-2013, 08:04 PM
good stuff. What RPM limit do you recommend? I'm assuming that the damn engine will keep making gobs of power all the way till it pops it seems once you let it breath...so we need to finger out what the happy place is of making progressively more power and not risking lean conditions or collisions, etc. What is your target recommended RPM limit?

If we are in California, as long as we have a 2.5" cat-back exhaust, and a 200Cell cat in nice DP with 2.5" exit, we should still be able to run Stage 2 no worries, yeah? I can't run around without a cat out here...

EDIT: IIRC, the Dart guys are only paying $495, which is $100 more than they were paying just a little while ago. Are Abarth guys the only ones that will be paying $100 more, or is price going up across the board regardless of the car? The Dart guys are such cheap bastards, I can't wait to see how they react!

4000 RPM works perfect for the launch control and 6900 redline is about spot on for gear change into peak torque.

Yes you should be able to run the Stage 2 tune without any issues.

The price is a target price, nothing is set in stone but look at the benefits of what you are getting with an actual tune vs what you are getting with a PNP box that is priced out at $550 to $800.

Thanks,

John

TorkMe
10-28-2013, 08:08 PM
Tork, I assume those will work on 500T. Will S2 eliminate CEL that are cat related? i would like to get rid of mine. Any idea what is expected s2 power output and when it will be available for purchase (need to plan when to remote my MM box) and sell it?
Also it would be nice if you post steps for removing factory ecu with pics, it might be easy from a first glance, but they love to put tricky clips and click on connectors on modern cars that love to break. What is estimated time for ECU roundtrip?3 days if shipped overnight?

We have to get a 500T in the shop to verify that the tune will work with just a direct flash over from the 500 Abarth. Yes, the S2 tune will get rid of the cat code. Expected power should be around 210 WHP, no idea on a release date for the Stage 2 tune. I will get a how to listed for the removal of the ECU when we get closer to releasing the tune, but it takes one 10mm deep socket or 10mm end wrench to and about 10 minutes to remove the ECU.. very easy to remove. Yes, 3 days pending how many we have showing up at one time. We can get 5 to 6 ECU flashed before the cut off time at the post office for express mail, then finish the rest of them and get them sent out next day. Normally we get them turned around same day, but sometimes we need additional time to flash older or newer ECU's with a different calibration file.

TorkMe
10-28-2013, 08:13 PM
Factory flash back in the car today. Omg what a difference. I can't stand it!!!!!n

Fixed...

TorkMe
10-28-2013, 08:14 PM
Yes I just assumed it was a typo. I don't know anyone who can seriously say with a straight face... the factory Abarth tune is amazing...

Thank you... I need a good laugh. You think the Abarth tune is bad... you need to go drive a Dart. I don't know what they were thinking but that thing drives like a big pile of warm poo on the factory tune.

ScorpionSkins.com
10-28-2013, 09:13 PM
Thank you... I need a good laugh. You think the Abarth tune is bad... you need to go drive a Dart. I don't know what they were thinking but that thing drives like a big pile of warm poo on the factory tune.

Considering the platform they built the vehicle on was the Alfa Giulietta, the Dart is an embarrassment of a vehicle. If you haven't driven a Giulietta but one day have the opportunity, I highly suggest you give it a try to see what the Dart could have been.

TorkMe
10-28-2013, 09:47 PM
Wow pricey, miss my Cobb days where you pay $495 for a awesome unit with data-logs and gives you the opportunity to switch maps on the fly via obd2 port, you can upgrade parts and simply reflash your car again in 7min. Sell your car? sell your accesport and get some money back. And when you want a real custom dyno tune you go see a pro tuner, yes you'll pay another $400-$500 bucks but at $895 for a stage 2 it adds up to be the same lol with more flexibility with the AP. These prices just aggravate me, parts are all over priced across the board, I understand the market is small but jesus. Even Hondata flashes are 295. Guess we gotta pay for these exotics we drive -___-. Sadly i'll still be paying for this lol but I wont be feeling happy about it, **** better be worth it.

We are Cobb Pro Tuners and I hear your pain.

But lets look at it a little differently...

The market is limited for this platform, its not like Honda, Subaru, or other very popular 4 cyl turbo application where there are 1000's if not 10's of thousands of potential customers.

The Stage 1 and Stage 2 tunes were developed on a dyno, they were tested, ran, and then parts were placed on the car to verify AFR's, drop in power, rise in power, ect. We installed just about every part you can imagine on the car to test for different limiters and potential problems. This is a tested and confirmed tune that has 100's of hours in development and design.

Next problem... the little box things set the standard for pricing. When people are paying $550 to $850 for a signal modifier... all the sudden a tune at $600 sounds like a deal! The next issues is setting the tune at to low of a price that it devalues the tune. If we set a tune at $400, the mentality is "how good can it really be". If we price it at $1000, people just expect it to be good. I hate how the performance market dictates the prices for tuning/tune solutions, ect.

Last, it really comes down to whether or not its worth it and I will break it down for you as to why it is.

1. Tune doesn't require a pedal box or throttle enhancer, its built in (saves you $250)
2. Tune can do things that the other boxes can not (launch control, higher redline, WOT shifting... again saves you $$$ and adds things that are needed to make the car faster).
3. What are your options? Box thing that cost $550 to $800 or tune that cost $600 yet offers so much more
4. Equipment needed to develop a tune like this, conservative costs $100k
5. Time needed to develop a tune like this, right now I have close to 2,000 hours between myself and two others at $100 per hour.

Now my time shouldn't factor into the cost of the tune but just like any business we are not in business to loose money. Only you can decide what price point is fair... we have to decide what it will take to recover our costs and start turning a profit. If the market is to small, you never turn a profit... if its to big, well I would never complain about that!

We will have a buy up program that allows customers to go from Stage 1 tune to Stage 2 tune and it will not cost them the full price. We also have a one time "re-flash" for those that have the accidental dealer re-flash or have those that want to get a small tune change for optimal AFR's, boost or other. This is a service, not just a tune. With our tune you will get the customer service and support that should come with any tune.

I hope this helps clear up the cost of our tune.

TorkMe
10-28-2013, 09:48 PM
Considering the platform they built the vehicle on was the Alfa Giulietta, the Dart is an embarrassment of a vehicle. If you haven't driven a Giulietta but one day have the opportunity, I highly suggest you give it a try to see what the Dart could have been.

The Dart is what it should be with our tune :)

mneuman916
10-28-2013, 10:35 PM
the little box things set the standard for pricing. When people are paying $550 to $850 for a signal modifier... all the sudden a tune at $600 sounds like a deal! The next issues is setting the tune at to low of a price that it devalues the tune. If we set a tune at $400, the mentality is "how good can it really be". If we price it at $1000, people just expect it to be good. I hate how the performance market dictates the prices for tuning/tune solutions, ect.

I hope this helps clear up the cost of our tune.

So, you justified the cost of your tune by insinuating the cost of others offerings are overpriced? Color me confused! Little box things, wow... You had my attention and interest until that comment... If your product is worth it's salt it will sell at any price. I'm not buying your illogic. Sell it for what it's WORTH, not what you THINK people think it's worth. The reviews and user experiences will take it from there.

ScorpionSkins.com
10-28-2013, 11:57 PM
So, you justified the cost of your tune by insinuating the cost of others offerings are overpriced? Color me confused! Little box things, wow... You had my attention and interest until that comment... If your product is worth it's salt it will sell at any price. I'm not buying your illogic. Sell it for what it's WORTH, not what you THINK people think it's worth. The reviews and user experiences will take it from there.

mneuman, you are rather charged in your choice of words, and I feel your vendor preferences affect your judgement. Please be considerate of the fact that this is the Tork vendor section of the forums. There's a way to argue your point politely, and while I'd even agree the price is higher than I personally expected, this is a product they've developed and dedicated a substantial amount of resources and time into.

I can think of another vendor who recently asked a similarly large amount for one of their new products, whose price-to-value ratio could be argued, and yet it was not so readily contested by you. Let's be fair where fairness is called for. I've seen you call other people haters and criticize their intelligence when they challenged that product, and so I very much expect you to eloquently display a reasonable amount of respect and maturity as a result, lest you be perceived the same as the type of individual you spoke of in your criticisms.

TorkMe
10-29-2013, 01:08 PM
So, you justified the cost of your tune by insinuating the cost of others offerings are overpriced? Color me confused! Little box things, wow... You had my attention and interest until that comment... If your product is worth it's salt it will sell at any price. I'm not buying your illogic. Sell it for what it's WORTH, not what you THINK people think it's worth. The reviews and user experiences will take it from there.

Insinuating that they are over priced, or are they over priced? We built a box when we first started testing the Dart tune options, for around $200 I could build a box that was end user programmable. Problem with that... the box is only a signal modifier and it will never perform like a real tune. Yes, our product will sell at any price but the market still demands a "fair" price. With us being the first and only company in the US to build a tune for the 500 we could ask any dollar amount we wanted, and if you don't want to pay for it so be it and good luck with your other tuning options. Yet I took the time to review the market viability of a tune, to see just how many at xxx price would sell and than how many at xxx price would sell. Rule of thumb for a tune, 3% - 5% of the vehicle cost is the standard for limited run vehicles. Mass produced vehicles are normally around the 2% range. High end exotics are 8% - 10% of the vehicle cost for a tune (yes a tune for a $200,000 car can be as high as $20,000).

What I think something is worth is not always fair, so we have to take into account what other options are out there. We looked at those other options, realized that we have the only real tune and priced it somewhere in between all of them. As the tunes start shipping out and get into the customers hands we will start to see the benefits of the tune vs the other options. In a year, I expect us to be the premier tuner for the 500 platform and our tune to be the standard for making a 500 fast!

mneuman916
10-29-2013, 08:47 PM
mneuman, you are rather charged in your choice of words, and I feel your vendor preferences affect your judgement. Please be considerate of the fact that this is the Tork vendor section of the forums. There's a way to argue your point politely, and while I'd even agree the price is higher than I personally expected, this is a product they've developed and dedicated a substantial amount of resources and time into.

I can think of another vendor who recently asked a similarly large amount for one of their new products, whose price-to-value ratio could be argued, and yet it was not so readily contested by you. Let's be fair where fairness is called for. I've seen you call other people haters and criticize their intelligence when they challenged that product, and so I very much expect you to eloquently display a reasonable amount of respect and maturity as a result, lest you be perceived the same as the type of individual you spoke of in your criticisms.

Though my initial knee jerk reaction was to blast you for "assuming" a vendor bias, I did the proper thing and gave some thought before I replied. My reaction had nothing to do with any vendor bias and a great deal with how I initially read TorkMe's explanation of pricing. Truthfully I was quite offended as a consumer and my emotional response had NOTHING to do with my previous vendor dealings and EVERYTHING to do with being a potential customer. That said, please see my reply to TorkMe below.


Insinuating that they are over priced, or are they over priced? We built a box when we first started testing the Dart tune options, for around $200 I could build a box that was end user programmable. Problem with that... the box is only a signal modifier and it will never perform like a real tune. Yes, our product will sell at any price but the market still demands a "fair" price. With us being the first and only company in the US to build a tune for the 500 we could ask any dollar amount we wanted, and if you don't want to pay for it so be it and good luck with your other tuning options. Yet I took the time to review the market viability of a tune, to see just how many at xxx price would sell and than how many at xxx price would sell. Rule of thumb for a tune, 3% - 5% of the vehicle cost is the standard for limited run vehicles. Mass produced vehicles are normally around the 2% range. High end exotics are 8% - 10% of the vehicle cost for a tune (yes a tune for a $200,000 car can be as high as $20,000).

What I think something is worth is not always fair, so we have to take into account what other options are out there. We looked at those other options, realized that we have the only real tune and priced it somewhere in between all of them. As the tunes start shipping out and get into the customers hands we will start to see the benefits of the tune vs the other options. In a year, I expect us to be the premier tuner for the 500 platform and our tune to be the standard for making a 500 fast!

TorkMe - you are clearly free to sell your product for a "fair" price to the masses and certainly deserve to recoup investment costs plus some. I take no issue at all with competition, innovation or new approaches to a goal that we all have. More, SAFE power. Though as some may point out I have a clear brand loyalty TODAY this does not mean I am not open to new ideas or competing products provided they perform to expectations, are built intelligently and are priced competitively. I know that I am never satisfied with what I have and I am always open to the next best thing when it makes sense. Modifications to these cars are forever, albeit slowly, changing and there will always be a new king on the hill eventually.

That being said, after re-reading your initial post and reply I am humbly retracting my previous comments. I believe now that the way I took your pricing comments were not as you intended them. Perhaps you did yourself a disservice by explaining TOO MUCH when making an attempt to justify your pricing structure the wrong way. Sometimes less is much, much more.

Clearly you have just begun introducing a new option to the market that has excited the community. I look forward to the feedback provided by those that jump, and I will be watching in the background. I personally cannot hop on your bandwagon yet as I value the portability and resale ability of piggyback solutions for the time being because of warranty concerns and waiting to see how this and other options play out. Let's face it, flying your ECU across the country, downing your car and getting a drilled/cracked open ECU back is a big turn off for many considering that long term reliability has yet to be proven.

I look forward to seeing more feedback regarding your product, just be aware of how your words may be taken. I will make the same efforts.

TorkMe
10-29-2013, 09:17 PM
Though my initial knee jerk reaction was to blast you for "assuming" a vendor bias, I did the proper thing and gave some thought before I replied. My reaction had nothing to do with any vendor bias and a great deal with how I initially read TorkMe's explanation of pricing. Truthfully I was quite offended as a consumer and my emotional response had NOTHING to do with my previous vendor dealings and EVERYTHING to do with being a potential customer. That said, please see my reply to TorkMe below.



TorkMe - you are clearly free to sell your product for a "fair" price to the masses and certainly deserve to recoup investment costs plus some. I take no issue at all with competition, innovation or new approaches to a goal that we all have. More, SAFE power. Though as some may point out I have a clear brand loyalty TODAY this does not mean I am not open to new ideas or competing products provided they perform to expectations, are built intelligently and are priced competitively. I know that I am never satisfied with what I have and I am always open to the next best thing when it makes sense. Modifications to these cars are forever, albeit slowly, changing and there will always be a new king on the hill eventually.

That being said, after re-reading your initial post and reply I am humbly retracting my previous comments. I believe now that the way I took your pricing comments were not as you intended them. Perhaps you did yourself a disservice by explaining TOO MUCH when making an attempt to justify your pricing structure the wrong way. Sometimes less is much, much more.

Clearly you have just begun introducing a new option to the market that has excited the community. I look forward to the feedback provided by those that jump, and I will be watching in the background. I personally cannot hop on your bandwagon yet as I value the portability and resale ability of piggyback solutions for the time being because of warranty concerns and waiting to see how this and other options play out. Let's face it, flying your ECU across the country, downing your car and getting a drilled/cracked open ECU back is a big turn off for many considering that long term reliability has yet to be proven.

I look forward to seeing more feedback regarding your product, just be aware of how your words may be taken. I will make the same efforts.


The only thing I have to say... the long term reliability will be far and above that of what is offered by anyone else. We have far superior knock protection with out tune, we have far superior AFR correction and we let the ECU see all the actual boost vs hiding it as the other tuning solutions do. If you simply look at our dyno charts and compare them with the dyno charts of the other piggy back systems, it will be clear that our tune is safer than anything on the market. The flat air-fuel curve, the curve of the dyno plot are two verification's for anyone that understands how a dyno chart works. I have seen several of the competitors plug and play units on my dyno and I can tell you... our tune will be superior in all aspects.

Thanks,

John

jflexe99
10-30-2013, 09:50 PM
Should offer Norcal SS to give him a tune to his Fiat. He is doing a large dyno test on his car vs each box, or most of them. I believe he has the MM, TMC, Madness and RRM Ultimate coming his way very shortly. Should offer and prove us you have the best performance item to offer.

If the product is as good as you speak of, will only increase sales for you.

TorkMe
10-31-2013, 03:36 PM
Should offer Norcal SS to give him a tune to his Fiat. He is doing a large dyno test on his car vs each box, or most of them. I believe he has the MM, TMC, Madness and RRM Ultimate coming his way very shortly. Should offer and prove us you have the best performance item to offer.

If the product is as good as you speak of, will only increase sales for you.

I really like that idea, independent tester. I am game to do something like this! Problem, he will have to have a spare ECU for the car. You couldn't use a box tuner thing on our tune, so it would have to be test the boxes, send me the ECU and then put the tuned ECU on the dyno at a later date.

mudking
10-31-2013, 04:44 PM
Thanks Tork for being so open to this...I have read in other Car enthusiasts forum where the Vendor will pay for just one of the members Dyno run after buying the product in order to have at least one independent run that other Forum members can refer too aside the Vendor Dyno sheet.

shagghie
10-31-2013, 04:56 PM
Tork, I apologize if I've missed it but do you have any in-car videos of your tune yet? I feel like I saw ONE about a week ago but now cannot find it for the life of me.

TorkMe
10-31-2013, 05:26 PM
Tork, I apologize if I've missed it but do you have any in-car videos of your tune yet? I feel like I saw ONE about a week ago but now cannot find it for the life of me.

I will try to find it for you, if you want... try search with "tork tune" listed inside of it.