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View Full Version : SCCA will post ruling on my letter 20 OCT



Robert Nixon
10-06-2013, 09:35 PM
Saw this update on the SCCA website today. My letter was asking if a SCCA region can not allow the Abarth to run in their region Solo (autocross) events, even though the national body of SCCA has ruled the Abarth legal.

I and another 500 USA Forum member had entered an event on line, but were then emailed that their region would not let any Abarths run in their region SCCA solo events.

Both of us didn't push the issue at the time, but I later wrote my letter to the SCCA.

here's what the letter tracking reports now:

Letter #11933 has been reviewed by the SEB.
Your letter is waiting to be posted in the next Fastrack, which will be available on the 20th of this month.

FTY
10-06-2013, 10:57 PM
Saw this update on the SCCA website today. My letter was asking if a SCCA region can not allow the Abarth to run in their region Solo (autocross) events, even though the national body of SCCA has ruled the Abarth legal.

I and another 500 USA Forum member had entered an event on line, but were then emailed that their region would not let any Abarths run in their region SCCA solo events.

Both of us didn't push the issue at the time, but I later wrote my letter to the SCCA.

here's what the letter tracking reports now:

Letter #11933 has been reviewed by the SEB.
Your letter is waiting to be posted in the next Fastrack, which will be available on the 20th of this month.

Keep us posted....I remember your post, I think its sad to think politics may be involved in having fun like this. I wonder what this guy has against these cars.

Fiat500USA
10-06-2013, 11:36 PM
Fiat fans went through this in the 1970s. The SCCA made it impossible for Fiats to compete. Had to protect all the English sports cars and Minis with their ancient push rod technology. They couldn't compete with Fiats that could turn 8 - 10,000 rpm and had modern suspensions.

jguerdat
10-07-2013, 09:12 AM
I got the same reply relative to my letter on the same subject.

I can't speak for old issues even though I was around then autocrossing Fiats (I never had any problems with rules or rulemakers) - perhaps that was for road race rather than autocross. I do agree that there are issues with the potential for rollovers, especially on sticky tires. However, I'd prefer to see rules put in place that ALLOW the cars to run safely rather than to just ban them outright. It would take time to get the rules in place unless someone has the time/money/engineering experience/ etc. to actually figure out what the issues are and how to solve them This car is relatively tall and narrow which is the root of the problem. My suggestion is to allow the cars to run on street tires (the new Street rules address this) which will mitigate much, if not all, of the roll issue. My biggest issue with how the rules are currently coming down is that they seem to be aimed at protecting the big bucks spent by current Stock class competitors ($3-5k sets of custom shocks in particular) rather than figuring out how to get back to basics and let all cars run. I don't have the answers but there's enough knowledge out there to be able to come up with reasonable rules and fixes.

If you wanna run stickies, run a modified class that also supports lowering, ala STF for the base 500s. Let the base 500s run in Street class safely rather than continuing to build a small but growing list of ineligible cars.

abarth&911
10-21-2013, 10:58 AM
The Nov. Fastrack is out.

Not the answer I wanted to read but since it is SCCA it is the expect one.

#11794, 11874, 11933 Allowing Cars at Events Clarification
Regions are free to make classing changes to suit local needs, provided they comply with all of the mandatory
provisions in the Solo Rules. Section 3 lists requirements for eligible vehicles. As such, a region is allowed
to ban a car model from competition even if that car is classed in Appendix A. Competitors are encouraged to
support those regions that value their participation.

I guess we will not participate in any CCR-SCCA event in an Abarth for the foreseeable future.

Robert Nixon
10-21-2013, 11:13 AM
Abarth&911

I looked on line but didn't see that earlier today, thanks for posting it.

I guess that is a surprise to me, that the NATIONAL body says a car is OK, but the LOCAL region can over-rule it. Especially in this case where one of the points events was sponsored by BOTH regions together, it ruled us OUT of competing. Makes no sense to me.

Robert Nixon
10-21-2013, 11:30 AM
To clarify for anyone reading this, it is the Central Carolina Region (CCR) does not allow the Abarth to run SCCA Solo events.

trevc
10-21-2013, 11:52 AM
And the SCCA wonders why they are losing members?

Robert Nixon
10-21-2013, 01:31 PM
trevc,
good point, I'll have to think about joining again next year, especially with NASA and other folks that sponsor autocross events also.

banzaitoyota
10-21-2013, 08:01 PM
?Got shafted by the regions in nc, sc, and ga in the 80's. Gave them another chance in early 2002. Same BS holy then thou attitude, inconsistent rules enforcement. Don't need to pay for the privelege of being abused during my fun time. I will vote with my pocketbook.

2Cool
10-21-2013, 10:11 PM
This could very easily be abused by someone who does not want competition in the class they are running, or a friend of theirs who they want to do a favor for by getting rid of that nasty sounding little car that is whooping their ass on a regular basis.

Reminds me of World Cup soccer refs that can call whatever they want with no recourse against them. One reason that the sport has not caught on as much in the US. Inherent lack of fairness and transparency.

jguerdat
10-22-2013, 07:45 AM
Competitors are encouraged to
support those regions that value their participation.

Note this part of the statement. While I can see both sides (SCCA National allowing the car while allowing individual regions to make changes within the ruleset) I think the recommendation to support other regions that do allow the cars to be pertinent. Of course, the vast majority of that region's members probably don't give a flying f*** about allowing an Abarth to run...

abarth&911
10-22-2013, 02:02 PM
At the NCAC that was held a few weeks ago at Z-Max an event from CCR-SCCA ( I was not there) some testing was done with an Abarth during fun runs.
See picture and text below. The person writing finish 3rd in class at SCCA National this year ( he was not driving an Abarth at National ).

8227
I took one run, and the chief of tech took one run with a camera mounted to monitor the rear tires. This was a test conducted in an attempt to convince the solo chair in allowing the Abarth to run locally on street tires only.

In the end, I spoke to the solo chair, and his main concern was having to lose Zmax as a site, which made sense, so we backed off on the idea.

no special privileges here..

So it really look like his mind is set. Like SCCA say I will support the club that let me run.

Robert Nixon
10-22-2013, 02:30 PM
I hadn't heard about that, but still don't understand what the guy's issue with the Abarth is.

djhace
10-22-2013, 02:57 PM
i am in 3rd gear at the slalom course. as far as i know, no lifting leg. like the civic or yaris did on a few curves. mine is all stock. running in RTF.


http://youtu.be/BgfCcbPqMYI

Robert Nixon
10-22-2013, 03:02 PM
Yeah, I've seen plenty of other cars with the inside rear wheel lifting off the ground on an autocross (and in the CCR region as well), so I still don't see what the big deal is.

djhace
10-22-2013, 03:07 PM
Yeah, I've seen plenty of other cars with the inside rear wheel lifting off the ground on an autocross (and in the CCR region as well), so I still don't see what the big deal is.

wonder if it's the BIG ASS BREAKS like brembo or willwood, wish is in the "RACING VERSIONS" of the Abarth. Cause they seams to tip over on the side due to driver errors.

8228

2Cool
10-22-2013, 03:14 PM
Every older VW GTI will lift a leg. The MX-5 actually will lift a front tire. Protege's also lift a leg. Hell, most hatches will hoist one when pushed to 10/10s. Not a valid excuse. Someone just has a hardon for the Abarth.

BigDaddySRT
10-22-2013, 03:47 PM
Yeah, I've seen plenty of other cars with the inside rear wheel lifting off the ground on an autocross (and in the CCR region as well), so I still don't see what the big deal is.

NEONs looked like a Dog Taking a Piss in every hard Corner... Stock Non-Adjustable Suspensions even.

All the ABARTHs that were pushing hard at the Track Experience were lifting the Rear Inboard Tires.

abarth&911
10-22-2013, 04:12 PM
This is typical front drive to lift the inside rear wheel, my first ax car a 78 Honda Civic, yes I’m that old, was doing this.
My 911 is the opposite, she is lifting the inside front.
My Abarth is on a Eibach Pro-kit and a Neu-F rear swaybar.
8232
8233
8234
8235

jguerdat
10-22-2013, 06:50 PM
Wheel lift has little to do with the issue. I've lifted the rear wheel off the ground on every FWD car I've driven. My old Fiat 850 Spiders and Coupe all lifted the front wheel. The real issue is rollover which is two wheels off and having a high enough CG to continue the roll. I've personally been on two wheels a few times with my 850 Coupe with slicks. It didn't roll because I specifically brought it back down (think Joey Chitwood, if you're old enough). Some cars just want to turn turtle but any car can be forced into a roll in the right situation. I understand SCCA's desire to limit liability by disallowing Jeeps and other high CG/narrow vehicles. Hell, my son rolled his Tacoma at a rallycross and suddenly pickups were no longer allowed.

However, the region in question has an issue that should be dealt with sooner rather than later. Someone else needs to take the job of Solo chair. Risk can be managed without being silly about it.

Blade Runner
10-22-2013, 07:13 PM
I believe that this stems for one simple fact. The FIAT is taller then it is wide. The potential for roll over is significant. Does any know where the Rimicci Corse team is....?

shagghie
10-22-2013, 07:33 PM
I believe that this stems for one simple fact. The FIAT is taller then it is wide. The potential for roll over is significant. Does any know where the Rimicci Corse team is....?

It's the CG height vs. width, not the actual height. In race trim these cars don't roll any more or less than any other car. Over 5 years of intense full-contact racing in Europe and only handfull of rollovers, and those are caused by T-bone corner contact, or skids that land the wheels horizontal to the corner markers... conditions that make any car roll over. Saw a vette almost roll over a few months ago in SOLO2. And have seen 3 other vettes crash, including one total with a trip to the hospital. When it comes to 'stability' on an auto cross track, traction is far more important than cg height/width ratio, as is horsepower/weight ratio, weight balance, and suspension set up overall. There are plenty of cars that have a much lower cg height / weight ratio in europe that could be used for an entire series of hugely popular race seasons... yet the A500 has cemented itself as a highly capable, maneuverable, and well-balanced car over the track. Italians might be crazy, but they are not idiots.

djhace
11-01-2013, 04:39 PM
hey nixon. any update?

Robert Nixon
11-01-2013, 04:54 PM
The SCCA stated this:

"#11794, 11874, 11933 Allowing Cars at Events Clarification
Regions are free to make classing changes to suit local needs, provided they comply with all of the mandatory
provisions in the Solo Rules. Section 3 lists requirements for eligible vehicles. As such, a region is allowed
to ban a car model from competition even if that car is classed in Appendix A. Competitors are encouraged to
support those regions that value their participation."

so for me that is the end of my competing in the Central Carolina Region.

Another ABARTH owner that knows that regions solo guy has been talking to him, and trying to convince him to change his mind, so maybe it will change, but for now he just doesn't allow Abarths, and the SCCA has stated that a region can do that.

djhace
11-01-2013, 05:16 PM
The SCCA stated this:

"#11794, 11874, 11933 Allowing Cars at Events Clarification
Regions are free to make classing changes to suit local needs, provided they comply with all of the mandatory
provisions in the Solo Rules. Section 3 lists requirements for eligible vehicles. As such, a region is allowed
to ban a car model from competition even if that car is classed in Appendix A. Competitors are encouraged to
support those regions that value their participation."

so for me that is the end of my competing in the Central Carolina Region.

Another ABARTH owner that knows that regions solo guy has been talking to him, and trying to convince him to change his mind, so maybe it will change, but for now he just doesn't allow Abarths, and the SCCA has stated that a region can do that.

ah. that sucks.

Papa Duck
11-01-2013, 05:18 PM
Fiat fans went through this in the 1970s. The SCCA made it impossible for Fiats to compete. Had to protect all the English sports cars and Minis with their ancient push rod technology. They couldn't compete with Fiats that could turn 8 - 10,000 rpm and had modern suspensions.

It wasn't just the English cars we had to deal with. The Datsuns came in about that time and also had preferential classing. Trying to run a 1438cc 124 spyder in F Production against the Midgets and Sprites was a major weight disadvantage. Twin carbs put me in E Production against the MGBs, again outclassed. It took then years to reclass the car into G where it belonged. In the 70s it was the make up of the Competition Board that determined the classes nationally and you had to see what or who was influencing their decisions.