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france6688
09-20-2013, 06:01 PM
i have a 2012 abarth and i have followed the maintance schedual to a "T" and at around 5kmiles i rotated the tires and my husband (who has been a avid car collector and auto body guy for 15 plus years) noticed abnormal "cupping" we took it to the repair shop and had the alignment check and the wheels checked for any bent or unbalanced wheels/ tires. nothing everything was perfect. the noise of "oversized mud tires" became louder and louder with each mile i drove. it now has 10k miles and still has more the 1/2 of the tread life of the tires but the cupping has became so bad that you cant even hear yourself think from all the noise inside of the car. It is at the dealer right now to check everything out the tech when i dropped it off last night noticed it without even feeling it. you could see how bad the "cupping" was. he said that there was def. a problem. the dealer just called me said that everything underneath the car was in proper alignment and in working order. he stated that " the tires are high proformance tires and that is just going to happen becasue they are soft so you will need to replace them every 3 ta 5k miles if i dont want to hear the "cupping" noise inside the car." What the heck no no no i am NOT replacing tires every 3k or in this case 10k miles there is no reason to ." i have had many Sport/high proformance cars (dodge charger srt8, john cooper works mini coopers x2, honda civic SI ect.) and NEVER have i had to replace tires this early i drive back and forth to work 40 miles round trip a day no interstates unless occationally on the weekends. The dealer will not do anything for me i opened a claim through the Fiat Customer support and they stated they will be in contact with the dealer to see if there was anything they could do to "fix" the ongoing problem . Anyone else having this problem ?????

Fiat500USA
09-20-2013, 11:41 PM
Welcome to the forum! Which tires? Front, back or all four? The rear tires on my Prima and Abarth showed signs of cupping at around 10,000 miles. On a set of PZERO Nero's I don't know how much more mileage I could expect from them. They aren't the longest lasting tires around. There are some threads here on the forum about replacement tires and I would bet you could find a longer lasting set than the Pirellis.

Also, it is possible that an independent repair shop would not have the correct alignment specs for the Abarth. If you have a print out, you can go here and see the correct specs: Fiat 500 and 500 Abarth Wheel Alignment Specs (http://www.fiat500usa.com/2012/06/fiat-500-and-500-abarth-wheel-alignment.html)

france6688
09-21-2013, 12:03 AM
Welcome to the forum! Which tires? Front, back or all four? The rear tires on my Prima and Abarth showed signs of cupping at around 10,000 miles. On a set of PZERO Nero's I don't know how much more mileage I could expect from them. They aren't the longest lasting tires around. There are some threads here on the forum about replacement tires and I would bet you could find a longer lasting set than the Pirellis.

Also, it is possible that an independent repair shop would not have the correct alignment specs for the Abarth. If you have a print out, you can go here and see the correct specs: Fiat 500 and 500 Abarth Wheel Alignment Specs (http://www.fiat500usa.com/2012/06/fiat-500-and-500-abarth-wheel-alignment.html)

My abarth is at the fiat dealer n Arkansas not an independent dealer .. And I have ran parelli tires on alot of the preformance cars an never have I had this problem .. I will keep confronting fiat untill this problem is fixed an I have had nothing but crap service an problems with the car. I would never recommend fiat to anyone .. Cute car just bad service an too many headaches .!

pastor passum
09-21-2013, 01:14 AM
I'm at 20,000 miles on my '12 Abarth and I've got at least 10,000 miles left in my Pirellis. Over half the miles are interstate driving and the wear is even and no evidence of cupping. I do run higher pressures than Fiat suggests, 38-40 front and 36 rear. Something obviously is wrong either in your alignment or possibly incorrect (to low) air pressure. So far as your dealer saying you'll need to replace tires very 3 to 5 thousand miles..... Maybe time to look for a new dealer! Good luck and welcome to the forum.

Fiat Boy
09-21-2013, 08:59 AM
Cupping in tires can be caused by weak shocks, allowing the tires to bounce, thus causing cupping. Just mentioning as a possibility and something to check.

Fiat Boy

Robert Nixon
09-21-2013, 09:06 AM
16,000 miles on my 13 Abarth, no issues with the Pirelli tires, includes highway, city, and autocrossing miles for 1 year as of today.

Obviously that is total BS that you'd have to replace your "performance" tires every 3K miles!

Hopefully Fiat will address the issue even if they have to explain a few things to you dealer. If there's another dealer close to you maybe worth going to them.

johniew398
09-21-2013, 02:37 PM
I have the same issue with the noise. Mine is a 2013 Abarth and I have followed the maintenance schedule. I've never had this kind of noise with tires before.

JoeB
09-21-2013, 02:51 PM
This problem is happening with the 17s, correct? It's a low-profile, soft-compound tire, and I suspect highly susceptible to wearing unevenly on rough roads. Replacing every 3-5k miles is bonkers, but it wouldn't surprise me to hear that they're pretty beat up by 15k. It's not a full race tire, but it's not the tall All Season the 16s are wearing, either.

france6688
09-21-2013, 03:47 PM
It's not the tread dept I am having a problem with its the cupping on the front tires I rotated the cupped front tires to the back at the 5k miles an it just moved the noise to the back of the car now that I'm at 10k miles an the front ones r now extremely bad an soo loud inside the car. I am pleased with the accrual wear of the tread on the tires just want the underlying problem for the cupping fixed or it will keep happening on each set of new tires I put on..

Fiat500USA
09-21-2013, 05:05 PM
My abarth is at the fiat dealer n Arkansas not an independent dealer .. And I have ran parelli tires on alot of the preformance cars an never have I had this problem .. I will keep confronting fiat untill this problem is fixed an I have had nothing but crap service an problems with the car. I would never recommend fiat to anyone .. Cute car just bad service an too many headaches .!

Sorry, I thought you originally went to an independent repair shop at 5,000 miles. Can you get a print out of the alignment results and compare them to what's on my site? This way you can see for yourself if you are being told accurate info that the car is within specs. If they are, maybe they can make some adjustments within the tolerance range. Also, tire pressures can come into play, so it's a good idea to monitor them to rule that out.

JoeB
09-21-2013, 05:49 PM
It's not the tread dept I am having a problem with its the cupping on the front tires I rotated the cupped front tires to the back at the 5k miles an it just moved the noise to the back of the car now that I'm at 10k miles an the front ones r now extremely bad an soo loud inside the car. I am pleased with the accrual wear of the tread on the tires just want the underlying problem for the cupping fixed or it will keep happening on each set of new tires I put on..

"Cupping" is flat spots on the tires, right? That would be a version of worn tread if I'm reading this thread correctly. As someone else mentioned, it sounds like those soft, low-profile tires are wearing unevenly from being bounced up-and-down on bumpy roads.

Indie500L
09-21-2013, 08:24 PM
Yeah jack up that pressure and swap the tires left to right and right to left in the front only. If it is the outside tread blocks that are cupping then increase the tire pressure for sure and swapping the tires side to side with cause them to wear in the other direction. Assuming that the alignment really is correct you may want to find out with they THINK the toe in should be and if it is closer to the limit inwards that could be the problem. I had cupping on rear tires a couple of cars back and it was out of alignment from the factory - toed out.

frank283
09-21-2013, 10:32 PM
Sounds like the tires are bouncing only thing that can cause cupping Id suspect bad or warn shocks. I’d take it to a tire shop and see what they say unfortunately many of your mechanics these days have no idea what they’re doing there just parts changers that hope that fixes the problem.

NC Abarth
09-30-2013, 11:43 PM
I was going to start a thread about this but you beat me to it.
I have a 2013 Abarth and just had my first oil change/tire rotation completed today. 5,163 miles. The tech noted "will need 2 new tires soon due to cupping wear". When I looked it them I can see extra wear on the outside tread blocks of my front tires, but the rest of the tread depth looks perfect. They rotated them front to back. I am going to double-check the air pressure and pump 'em up more than the factory recommendation.

When the service girl same to speak to me she made it sound worse than it really was and asked if I wanted to replace them today. At just over 5K miles?! WTF? Um, no. It's not really that bad and I'm not hearing any extra noise, so with added pressure I'm figuring I should be good until at least 15K.

First thing I asked was: "Did you check the alignment specs?" and she said they did and it was all to factory spec. Hmm. Not sure I believe them. She actually said to me: "this sort of thing can happen if you take corners too fast and don't slow down enough before taking a corner". After which she asked if I wanted to replace them today. I know she's doing her job to up sell the customer, but c'mon...

djhace
10-01-2013, 01:57 AM
I was going to start a thread about this but you beat me to it.
I have a 2013 Abarth and just had my first oil change/tire rotation completed today. 5,163 miles. The tech noted "will need 2 new tires soon due to cupping wear". When I looked it them I can see extra wear on the outside tread blocks of my front tires, but the rest of the tread depth looks perfect. They rotated them front to back. I am going to double-check the air pressure and pump 'em up more than the factory recommendation.

When the service girl same to speak to me she made it sound worse than it really was and asked if I wanted to replace them today. At just over 5K miles?! WTF? Um, no. It's not really that bad and I'm not hearing any extra noise, so with added pressure I'm figuring I should be good until at least 15K.

First thing I asked was: "Did you check the alignment specs?" and she said they did and it was all to factory spec. Hmm. Not sure I believe them. She actually said to me: "this sort of thing can happen if you take corners too fast and don't slow down enough before taking a corner". After which she asked if I wanted to replace them today. I know she's doing her job to up sell the customer, but c'mon...


mine, p nero lasted 15-16k. and i did a few autocross with them.

bryanintowson
10-01-2013, 10:03 AM
First, I drive a 500 Lounge so I can't comment on these Pirellis - HOWEVER

I have had Pzero's on previous cars and they're fantastic for a while and then they get noisy. My Dad ran Pirelli Scorpions on his Explorer and he adored them for the first 8K miles. He's running Michelins now and I am sticking with my Firestones.

Tires are unfortunately a crap shoot - you never know how they will wear. If it was me, I'd ditch the Pzero's and start shopping around for some new shoes.

abarth&911
10-01-2013, 10:51 AM
I was going to start a thread about this but you beat me to it.
I have a 2013 Abarth and just had my first oil change/tire rotation completed today. 5,163 miles. The tech noted "will need 2 new tires soon due to cupping wear". When I looked it them I can see extra wear on the outside tread blocks of my front tires, but the rest of the tread depth looks perfect. They rotated them front to back. I am going to double-check the air pressure and pump 'em up more than the factory recommendation.

When the service girl same to speak to me she made it sound worse than it really was and asked if I wanted to replace them today. At just over 5K miles?! WTF? Um, no. It's not really that bad and I'm not hearing any extra noise, so with added pressure I'm figuring I should be good until at least 15K.

First thing I asked was: "Did you check the alignment specs?" and she said they did and it was all to factory spec. Hmm. Not sure I believe them. She actually said to me: "this sort of thing can happen if you take corners too fast and don't slow down enough before taking a corner". After which she asked if I wanted to replace them today. I know she's doing her job to up sell the customer, but c'mon...

Paul

Maybe you need to drive your car harder… I change mine last week after 6,500 miles, they were all at the wear bar (did tire rotation) and the wear was pretty even across the tread maybe a little more on the inside. They had more than 50 AX runs on them. I put Dunlop ZII and they are awesome, see this tread: http://www.fiat500usaforum.com/showthread.php?12043-Autocross-of-9-28
If you want your alignment verify check with: Performance Chassis in Cary 214 Hillsboro Street #103. He is a PCA and THSCC supporter. I always go there.

PS. Do a few burn out to even up the wear across the tread……….

NC Abarth
10-01-2013, 09:18 PM
Patrice, I'll definitely look at the Dunlop ZII when it's time to replace my tires. But I'm certainly hoping to get closer to 10-15K out of them. I'm with the OP in that we should get more mileage than 5K! (Not counting auto-crossing of course...)

Follow up to my tire rotation yesterday:
So after getting the service done I drove straight home which is only a few miles away. This morning when I started my car, the TPMS went off and warned me that both front tires had low pressure. It showed 27.5 pounds on the fronts! The tech at the dealership didn't even check the tire pressures after he rotated my tires! First routine service at my local dealership in Cary, NC and I am NOT happy. If not for the 5 remaining oil change/tire rotations that I got in my deal I would not go back to them. That is sloppy work at best and potentially dangerous at worst.

Robert Nixon
10-01-2013, 09:50 PM
something like that is probably worth mentioning to the service manager. Pretty basic thing to 1-know that the Abarth has different pressure front to rear, so 2-always adjust after rotating regardless.

NC Abarth
10-01-2013, 10:14 PM
something like that is probably worth mentioning to the service manager. Pretty basic thing to 1-know that the Abarth has different pressure front to rear, so 2-always adjust after rotating regardless.

I am definitely going to contact the service manager about this to let them know I'm an unhappy customer and also to be sure they know they need to provide more training to their staff. This is a very large well-known dealership with multiple brands - the Fiat service is handled by their Dodge service shop.

OP - didn't mean to sidetrack your thread... I'm still with you on the cupping issue.

abarth&911
10-02-2013, 08:31 AM
Patrice, I'll definitely look at the Dunlop ZII when it's time to replace my tires. But I'm certainly hoping to get closer to 10-15K out of them. I'm with the OP in that we should get more mileage than 5K! (Not counting auto-crossing of course...)

Follow up to my tire rotation yesterday:
So after getting the service done I drove straight home which is only a few miles away. This morning when I started my car, the TPMS went off and warned me that both front tires had low pressure. It showed 27.5 pounds on the fronts! The tech at the dealership didn't even check the tire pressures after he rotated my tires! First routine service at my local dealership in Cary, NC and I am NOT happy. If not for the 5 remaining oil change/tire rotations that I got in my deal I would not go back to them. That is sloppy work at best and potentially dangerous at worst.


I don’t expect the Dunlop ZII to last long, if they do me 6k miles + Autocross I will be more than happy with that.
If you want long lasting tire I will look into something else, like the BFG g-Force Sport COMP-2.
When I had my oil change at the dealer (same package that you have) I specifically ask to not do a tire rotation.
I prefer to do this myself and more often. You should let Maurice know also.

pk9394
10-09-2013, 05:28 PM
When I read through the thread, OP also mention they rotate the good rear tire to the front. Another 5k miles, the front also have cupping issues. It clearly mean that the first 5k the rear tire is in good condition! This is a FF car, lots of stress loaded to the front wheel. Especially if the car travel in a hilly area! It sound like is due to driving habit or road condition to me!

Also the OP didn't mention what psi they are running, this is also one of the key to the cupping issues if all aliment is correct! Many people will just drive their car without checking anything after their services is done in the shop! But very often the car will leave the shop with over inflated tire all the time.

I had 13500 as of today, all 4 tires wear very even. 38-39 psi all around. Rotate every 5K. looks like I am half way on these treads. Noise… yes, but not as bad as these 20” Dunlop SP sport on my X5.

If your service adviser ask you to replace tires every 3 to 5k miles, you better run ASAP and never go back!

johniew398
10-10-2013, 09:13 AM
The noise sounds like snow tires. I've never had a car that tires made this much noise. With mine it started about 5,000 miles.

Robert Nixon
10-10-2013, 09:47 AM
I'll admit making the same mistake, rotated tires front to rear last weekend, and totally forgot about the different tire pressures! Easy to fix, I can't imagine a few miles with low/high pressure is going to affect your tires

The cupping thing as far as I know is a suspension issue, not sure it could be a bad rubber compound or manufacturing issue, but I'm no expert.

I'm almost at 19,000 miles on the 16 inch Pirellis, have done about 6 autocross events, and have no cupping or uneven wear, and I guess I need to drive harder because I have plenty of wear left on these tires. I have rotated only at the oil change interval, about 9,000 miles, so my experience has been good so far. Normal driving I stick with the recommended pressures, have tried higher pressure for autocross too, haven't had any issues either way.

spydersniper
10-10-2013, 04:45 PM
This is a front wheel drive car. Engine weight, braking and steering on the front. It is imperative that tires be rotated often and correctly. Cupping is caused by that combination. Most dealers aren't familiar with correct rotation. Rears to the front, fronts crisscross to the rear every 3 to 4000 miles max. That makes 1 complete rotation around the car for every 4 rotations. 12 to 16, 000 miles. Then what normally happens is when tires need to be replaced you replace the 2 fronts first (always replace in pairs across from each other). Then replace the rears the next time they come forward. An extra payday between replacement. Most of my old customers would average 60,000 miles plus. When you replace your tires the first time find a place tha gives free rotations every 3000 miles.

BillE
10-11-2013, 10:18 AM
To add to the range of experiences, ours is a 2012 Abarth with 17” P Zero tires and the inflations kept close to the pressures specified on the B-Pillar. Side note: Our car was one of the early deliveries (April 2012) where the dealer didn’t bother to check/re-set pressures from the 40 psi all-around they came off the truck with. Handling was way squirrelly for the couple of days before I corrected them!

At first I set them at 38 psi front and 32 psi rear but then tried 1 psi and 2 psi over the ‘standard’ settings. They’ve been at 39 and 33 since our July drive to the FreakOut and Canada.

Tires have been rotated about every 4K miles to correspond with oil changes and half-way between oil changes. With that said, perhaps ‘rotated’ isn’t the most applicable term since all three dealers I’ve used simply swapped the front and rear on the same side despite the fact that the 2012 Abarth Owner’s Manual (page 233) recommends/illustrates a cross-over pattern.

At this point with 14,000 miles, there’s a good amount of tread left and no sign of cupping or uneven wear. Haven’t done autocrossing since the ‘olden’ days but as Robert Nixon noted, I guess I should drive at least a little harder :smile:

Cheers (And....look forward to seeing some of you at this Saturday's Italian Car Day in GA!)

edtruty
10-14-2013, 04:07 PM
i just came back from the dealer. i have a cupping problem on drivers side rear tire. i was told my frame is bent. i dont know how its possible as I have not had an accident or hit any large potholes.
Ask your dealer to check frame alignment. oh its not covered by warranty as stated by the dealer. think a recall might be in order?

FiatCares
10-15-2013, 03:33 PM
i just came back from the dealer. i have a cupping problem on drivers side rear tire. i was told my frame is bent. i dont know how its possible as I have not had an accident or hit any large potholes.
Ask your dealer to check frame alignment. oh its not covered by warranty as stated by the dealer. think a recall might be in order?

Edtruty:

Are you in the US or Canada? The dealer is saying your frame is bent? That just doesnt happen...either it was bent from the factory or I'm sure you'd remember how it happened if it was while you were driving. If you are within the US , PM me with your VIN. If you are in Canada, reach out to my counterpart, Katie (FiatCACares)

lammie200
10-15-2013, 04:01 PM
i just came back from the dealer. i have a cupping problem on drivers side rear tire. i was told my frame is bent. i dont know how its possible as I have not had an accident or hit any large potholes.
Ask your dealer to check frame alignment. oh its not covered by warranty as stated by the dealer. think a recall might be in order?

You can get this from various threads but AFAIK the rear wheels have no adjustment to correct your problem. There is also the issue of the rear wheels not being completely centered on the body work. That may be why any adjustments cannot bring the rear wheels into the proper spec tolerances. Those two factors are likely contributing to the cupping wear on your tires. Thus a tech might say that your frame is bent without full knowledge of these two issues - the first of which is an intentional design (or lack thereof) feature by Fiat, while the other seems to be a defect. Like you I think that Fiat should address the cupping and centering issues under warranty and not have techs tell people that their frames are bent and/or to go take a hike.

Rdixiemiller
10-29-2013, 09:56 AM
I have a 2013 Abarth, 17" P-Zero Neros. I had the tires aired up to 1 psi over the door sticker specs. Most of my driving is interstate (146 miles/day). At 8500 miles, I noticed cupping on the inside of both front tires. I rotated front to back (Nero's are directional according to the sidewall). Left the rears at the same pressure as the fronts to try to even out the wear. Fronts are still 1 psi over the sticker values.
The fronts are now cupping again, at 19000 miles. I have looked at the alignment specs, and I am wondering if I should have the front end set to the standard 500 specs as far as caster and camber. The tire wear has made the car quite noisy, and I have picked up a bit of vibration that won't balance out. I switched jobs in June, when the car had 2500 miles on it. Went from 18 miles per day city driving to 146 miles almost all 4 lane (nice and smooth). Knowing what I do now, I would have gone with the 16" wheels, my drive doesn't let me get much performance time.
I guess my question is, has anyone tried the standard 500 alignment settings on an Abarth to try for better tire wear characteristics?

Ryephile
10-29-2013, 10:26 AM
It's either the tires, alignment, or the driver.

Some specific tires wear oddly. The Yokohama Parada and Dunlop Star Spec Z1 are notorious for cupping even with a good alignment. Some cars have wonky alignments from the factory and need fixing. What's really important is to match your driving style to the alignment. Over-aggressive camber will wear the inside shoulder of the tires if you take corners slow. Conversely, insufficient negative camber with aggressive cornering will wear the outside of the tires quickly. This is a good pic I found on Google:

Click the little pic for bigger
8283

Moral of the story, if you're not a corner carver, consider reducing your front negative camber to perhaps -0.5° and don't buy PZero Nero's next time.

Guest
10-29-2013, 12:28 PM
Just switched to my winter rims and tires. Fronts noticeably cupped on inner shoulders but as all four close to wear indicators ill ditch them and get some decent all seasons in the spring. I wanted the Pirelli pole positions but they dont come in our size so ill look around.

Moral is Pirelli Neros dont last well and wont see my car again.

Guess Ill do an alignment with the new tires.

Tweak
10-29-2013, 12:35 PM
i just came back from the dealer. i have a cupping problem on drivers side rear tire. i was told my frame is bent. i dont know how its possible as I have not had an accident or hit any large potholes.
Ask your dealer to check frame alignment. oh its not covered by warranty as stated by the dealer. think a recall might be in order?


I have a 2013 Abarth, 17" P-Zero Neros. I had the tires aired up to 1 psi over the door sticker specs. Most of my driving is interstate (146 miles/day). At 8500 miles, I noticed cupping on the inside of both front tires. I rotated front to back (Nero's are directional according to the sidewall). Left the rears at the same pressure as the fronts to try to even out the wear. Fronts are still 1 psi over the sticker values.
The fronts are now cupping again, at 19000 miles. I have looked at the alignment specs, and I am wondering if I should have the front end set to the standard 500 specs as far as caster and camber. The tire wear has made the car quite noisy, and I have picked up a bit of vibration that won't balance out. I switched jobs in June, when the car had 2500 miles on it. Went from 18 miles per day city driving to 146 miles almost all 4 lane (nice and smooth). Knowing what I do now, I would have gone with the 16" wheels, my drive doesn't let me get much performance time.
I guess my question is, has anyone tried the standard 500 alignment settings on an Abarth to try for better tire wear characteristics?

Welcome to the forum guys.

jguerdat
10-30-2013, 08:21 AM
It's either the tires, alignment, or the driver.

Some specific tires wear oddly. The Yokohama Parada and Dunlop Star Spec Z1 are notorious for cupping even with a good alignment. Some cars have wonky alignments from the factory and need fixing. What's really important is to match your driving style to the alignment. Over-aggressive camber will wear the inside shoulder of the tires if you take corners slow. Conversely, insufficient negative camber with aggressive cornering will wear the outside of the tires quickly. This is a good pic I found on Google:

Click the little pic for bigger
8283

Moral of the story, if you're not a corner carver, consider reducing your front negative camber to perhaps -0.5° and don't buy PZero Nero's next time.

Agree with all of this. The biggest issue with changing camber is the need to use camber bolts (not a huge issue, just that you need to use them in the first place).

While my Pirelli P-Zeros wore pretty evenly, I changed them out at about 5k miles for better autocross tires. I noticed inside treadwear but not horrible. My alignment was pretty much dead nuts on to the center of factory spec. No cupping but perhaps not enough mileage plus autocross to have the problem.

BigDaddySRT
10-30-2013, 08:49 AM
It's either the tires, alignment, or the driver.

Some specific tires wear oddly. The Yokohama Parada and Dunlop Star Spec Z1 are notorious for cupping even with a good alignment. Some cars have wonky alignments from the factory and need fixing. What's really important is to match your driving style to the alignment. Over-aggressive camber will wear the inside shoulder of the tires if you take corners slow. Conversely, insufficient negative camber with aggressive cornering will wear the outside of the tires quickly. This is a good pic I found on Google:

Moral of the story, if you're not a corner carver, consider reducing your front negative camber to perhaps -0.5° and don't buy PZero Nero's next time.

"wonky alignments from the factory and need fixing."
What???
You're telling people that the OEM Manufactures put out of spec alignments on cars and accept the fact that they are going to receive a "few" (thousands) of vehicles to be returned to dealers with destroyed tires?

Regular People believe that negative Camber destroys tires... because all these "Regular People" have done is install cheap "Drop Springs" without getting an 4 wheel alignment. Then.... when these "drop springs" destroy the tires, the tire shops say your Camber destroyed the Tires!!!!
When in all technical aspects, it's the Toe Setting that destroyed the tires.

Cupping on Tires is not caused by Negative Camber!!!!!

Ryephile
10-30-2013, 10:30 AM
"wonky alignments from the factory and need fixing."
What???
You're telling people that the OEM Manufactures put out of spec alignments on cars and accept the fact that they are going to receive a "few" (thousands) of vehicles to be returned to dealers with destroyed tires?

Regular People believe that negative Camber destroys tires... because all these "Regular People" have done is install cheap "Drop Springs" without getting an 4 wheel alignment. Then.... when these "drop springs" destroy the tires, the tire shops say your Camber destroyed the Tires!!!!
When in all technical aspects, it's the Toe Setting that destroyed the tires.

Cupping on Tires is not caused by Negative Camber!!!!!

Back up a minute. Try understanding what I wrote. I never wrote that negative camber exclusively causes cupping. I wrote that an alignment that doesn't match the driving style and/or specific tire construction will result in uneven tire wear. I also wrote that certain tires are prone to seemingly strange wear patterns. I even gave specific examples. The Abarth 17" PZero Nero's seem to fit the category of poorly wearing tires, despite a "good" alignment. I think the problem here is defining "good alignment". The OEM spends thousands of hours sorting out the suspension on each model they offer. They pick and choose the compromises. With the Abarth, they chose to expect the driver won't be troubled by quickly wearing tires that work best during aggressive cornering. It's a fairly narrow specification.

You seem to have a notion that whatever an OEM alignment is:
1) is consistent or accurate. Have you seen any factory alignments taking place? They range from spot-on to spec to laughably out of whack, depending on the factory, worker shift, and QC. Add in dealership PDI incompetence and there is plenty of opportunity for the car to reach the customer with a slightly different alignment than the next car off the line.

2) is relevant to the driver of the car. A factory-spec Abarth alignment is not relevant for a hypermiler, nor an HPDE junkie. It's pretty good for a medium aggressive street driving enthusiast that takes corners quickly but not necessarily at the limit.



Let's try to keep this in perspective. "Good alignment" is driver (application), tire, and vehicle specific. Leave out any one of those factors and you're missing the whole picture. If someone here is having tire cupping problems, we need to find which of those three, or combinations thereof, are the root cause. Chances are it's a mix of all three.

rnddude
10-30-2013, 12:50 PM
^^^What Ryephile said is good info^^^

Rdixiemiller
01-22-2014, 11:39 AM
I have a 2013 Abarth, 17" P-Zero Neros. I had the tires aired up to 1 psi over the door sticker specs. Most of my driving is interstate (146 miles/day). At 8500 miles, I noticed cupping on the inside of both front tires. I rotated front to back (Nero's are directional according to the sidewall). Left the rears at the same pressure as the fronts to try to even out the wear. Fronts are still 1 psi over the sticker values.
The fronts are now cupping again, at 19000 miles. I have looked at the alignment specs, and I am wondering if I should have the front end set to the standard 500 specs as far as caster and camber. The tire wear has made the car quite noisy, and I have picked up a bit of vibration that won't balance out. I switched jobs in June, when the car had 2500 miles on it. Went from 18 miles per day city driving to 146 miles almost all 4 lane (nice and smooth). Knowing what I do now, I would have gone with the 16" wheels, my drive doesn't let me get much performance time.
I guess my question is, has anyone tried the standard 500 alignment settings on an Abarth to try for better tire wear characteristics?

I took my car for an alignment check. Everything was well within factory specs. Toe in was dead on. caster and camber within 0.1 degrees. The wear I am seeing on the inside edge of the front tires is bad enough that the tires will be shot well before the wear bars are reached. I rotate the tires, the noise drops back for about 1000 miles before it comes back.
I have a set of Sumitomos that I got from Tire Rack, I will have them mounted in 3 weeks, right at 30,000 miles. I bought a set of eccentric bolts, I think I will dial the camber from -1.5 to -0.5 degrees. Can't hurt to try. My driving is 144 miles of smooth 4-lane every day, 4.6 miles of smooth surface streets. At the rate tires wear on my car, I would be putting on a set of tires every 9 months or so.

trevc
01-22-2014, 11:53 AM
You can dial back the negative camber without camber bolts. The top of the two bottom strut bolt holes in the strut is slotted and will allow you to go from slightly positive to -1.5. You only need camber bolts if you want to go more negative (I just went to -3 for race purposes).


I took my car for an alignment check. Everything was well within factory specs. Toe in was dead on. caster and camber within 0.1 degrees. The wear I am seeing on the inside edge of the front tires is bad enough that the tires will be shot well before the wear bars are reached. I rotate the tires, the noise drops back for about 1000 miles before it comes back.
I have a set of Sumitomos that I got from Tire Rack, I will have them mounted in 3 weeks, right at 30,000 miles. I bought a set of eccentric bolts, I think I will dial the camber from -1.5 to -0.5 degrees. Can't hurt to try. My driving is 144 miles of smooth 4-lane every day, 4.6 miles of smooth surface streets. At the rate tires wear on my car, I would be putting on a set of tires every 9 months or so.

SeaDawg
01-22-2014, 11:56 AM
I bought a set of eccentric bolts, I think I will dial the camber from -1.5 to -0.5 degrees. Can't hurt to try. My driving is 144 miles of smooth 4-lane every day, 4.6 miles of smooth surface streets. At the rate tires wear on my car, I would be putting on a set of tires every 9 months or so.

The PZeros have such a bad rep that I'd leave my suspension alone after switching to the Sumitomos and see what kind of wear you get before modifying suspension settings. The eccentric bolts are an extremely easy install although you would either have to have another alignment done or know someone who has a magnetic base camber gage (attaches to the disc brake rotor - also mfg. by Specialty Products). The camber gage isn't cheap..the additional alignment would be much less expensive than buying a gage...ask me how I know.;)

jguerdat
01-23-2014, 09:13 AM
You can dial back the negative camber without camber bolts. The top of the two bottom strut bolt holes in the strut is slotted and will allow you to go from slightly positive to -1.5. You only need camber bolts if you want to go more negative (I just went to -3 for race purposes).

Maybe on certain cars but my car has just holes, not slots. There's absolutely no camber adjustment possible.

For the record, my fronts were wearing the insides notably when I had the Pirellis. Either it's an issue with those tires or the Dunlops have just been subjected to enough extra autocrossing to even out the wear. I'd have to check the Dunlops to see if there's any uneven wear at all but generally speaking they're wearing pretty even.

abarth&911
01-23-2014, 09:39 AM
Same her, my stock strut have holes only, but now on my KW V3 I got a slot on the bottom hole.

trevc
01-23-2014, 09:53 AM
Very odd, as it even states this in the service manual and I just did my alignment (I do it myself). Did you do your alignment yourself?
It is not a large slot, you don't need a lot of movement to get to -1.5.

Same her, my stock strut have holes only, but now on my KW V3 I got a slot on the bottom hole.

SeaDawg
01-23-2014, 11:46 AM
Maybe on certain cars but my car has just holes, not slots. There's absolutely no camber adjustment possible.

For the record, my fronts were wearing the insides notably when I had the Pirellis. Either it's an issue with those tires or the Dunlops have just been subjected to enough extra autocrossing to even out the wear.

That would make sense as the negative camber would tend to accelerate wear on the inside tread edge. I haven't had my Pirellis long enough to wear anything, yet. I suspect it's a combination of the negative camber plus the tread compound of the Pirellis. I suppose I'll find out, but also suspect that they will require much more frequent rotations to keep wear even across face of tread.

For those looking for camber bolts, I'd recommend Tire Rack for the best price I've seen. Manufacturer is Specialty Products Co. http://www.spcalignment.com/ .

Tweak
01-23-2014, 10:33 PM
That would make sense as the negative camber would tend to accelerate wear on the inside tread edge. I haven't had my Pirellis long enough to wear anything, yet. I suspect it's a combination of the negative camber plus the tread compound of the Pirellis. I suppose I'll find out, but also suspect that they will require much more frequent rotations to keep wear even across face of tread.

For those looking for camber bolts, I'd recommend Tire Rack for the best price I've seen. Manufacturer is Specialty Products Co. http://www.spcalignment.com/ .

I have a brand new set I never used made by SPC. No intention to use them.

abarth&911
01-24-2014, 08:31 AM
Here a picture of the holes on the front stock strut.

9406

jguerdat
01-24-2014, 08:39 AM
That would make sense as the negative camber would tend to accelerate wear on the inside tread edge.

Toe will eat tires faster than camber (reasonable adjustments assumed) but, yeah, increasing camber will increase inside wear. Maybe we just need to always corner harder to even out the wear... ;)

abarth&911
01-24-2014, 09:35 AM
Maybe we just need to always corner harder to even out the wear... ;)

This and do more AX:joyous: That's probably why My stock Pirelli wear was even across the tread with a little more wear on the outside edge.

Rdixiemiller
02-19-2014, 03:13 PM
You can dial back the negative camber without camber bolts. The top of the two bottom strut bolt holes in the strut is slotted and will allow you to go from slightly positive to -1.5. You only need camber bolts if you want to go more negative (I just went to -3 for race purposes).

Mine just had round holes. I installed some camber bolts I got from Tire Rack and adjusted them til I just saw the spindle move a tiny bit in the positive camber direction. I've been driving with them since Saturday. I do notice things are smoother at low speed. Before the camber adjustment, I could feel the rough inside edge of the tires through the steering wheel when rolling slowly on smooth pavement. I'm going to get the new tires installed Saturday, and I'll have the camber set at -0.5 degrees. I don't get many chances to really play with corners, mostly highway driving.
I do get to play with acceleration on occasion!

Rdixiemiller
06-17-2014, 11:25 AM
Mine just had round holes. I installed some camber bolts I got from Tire Rack and adjusted them til I just saw the spindle move a tiny bit in the positive camber direction. I've been driving with them since Saturday. I do notice things are smoother at low speed. Before the camber adjustment, I could feel the rough inside edge of the tires through the steering wheel when rolling slowly on smooth pavement. I'm going to get the new tires installed Saturday, and I'll have the camber set at -0.5 degrees. I don't get many chances to really play with corners, mostly highway driving.
I do get to play with acceleration on occasion!

I installed a set of Sumitomos right at 31000 miles. I also had the front end aligned to stock Fiat 500 specs (the alignment shop wouldn't just dial out the negative camber). I know have 38000 miles on the car (spent the last 2 months working in Baja driving a rental car, so not getting much Abarth time). The car is quiet, and the tires are wearing smoothly. The handling is a bit less twitchy, which for my 146 mile/day commute down the 4 lane is fine. I'm sure if I was autocrossing I would not like the difference in handling. I have aso noticed I have less tendency to spin a front tire in wet weather when I take off from a light. I'm not sre if that is the tires, or the fact that the contact patch is better in straight line situations.
Either way, I am happy with how it drives, and the lack of tire noise is wonderful.