PDA

View Full Version : The "Other side" of the electric vehicle market...



Giuseppe
08-06-2013, 11:29 AM
Just thought I would share the lesser known side of electric vehicles.

http://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/renewables/unclean-at-any-speed

500ways
08-06-2013, 12:00 PM
Clearly the electric car is a political position and argument more than anything else. It's no different than the debate over "going green": i.e. using electronic means of communication vs. paper. Yes, some trees are saved. However, the disposal, transportation, powering, and radiation effects, etc. of all the electronic items in use pose the same problems as the electric vehicle.

Sergio Marchionne resents having to produce an electric car. They lose $$ on each one and he's convinced CNG (compressed natural gas) is the way to go. Nobody's listening to him. So, in order to comply with CAFE standards and be able to sell cars, he has to do what he has to do. The media overall aids the sale of EVs and hybrids by brainwashing the masses that they are doing the right thing and all is well. Or is it?

Don't always believe the hype...

Raindrops
08-06-2013, 01:07 PM
Just thought I would share the lesser known side of electric vehicles.

http://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/renewables/unclean-at-any-speed

Just remember, anything you read from any of these "researchers" may have a bias.. I think the article alludes to that itself. Who knows who is paying Zehner or sponsoring his research? The bicycle industry? The oil industry?

Also, I would say except for Nissan and maybe Tesla, and to some minor extent GM with the Volt, most auto makers resent the government mandates for them to go Electric.

Look how lukewarm Toyota and Ford (for goodness sakes two of the biggest automakers) are in their efforts to sell their electric vehicles... Their bread and butter are from the gas (ICE) cars.

Toyota and Honda have already said they want to go with the Fuel Cell.

Zehner has some good points, maybe one that comes to mind is why is the Gov't picking the winners and losers in this alternative fuel vehicle industry --- why electric? why not the natural gas (Honda has the CNG Civic available forever now).. why not push hydrogen fuel cell (though i know the cost of the infrastructure at this point is somewhat prohibitive)? or other to be heard of technology.

And I truly believe until the huge Oil companies have some sort of financial stake in the alternative fuel technology, it will be hard for electrics or hydrogen or anything to ever take off.. the Oil industry is too big, too powerful, and they will wring the last dollar of profit out of the last drop of oil...

As for electrics, there are many drawbacks.. the battery disposal, range, etc. Still hope Tesla can make a go of it. Someone has to start...

georges
08-06-2013, 11:36 PM
You can't believe everything you read. It is not a true well to wheels study. Most of these people never take into consideration what it takes to make and transport the gasoline.
But they use electricity from the power plant.
That article is full of misinformation and outright lies.
Here is a rebuttal.

http://spectrum.ieee.org/green-tech/advanced-cars/a-rebuttal-evs-are-clean-at-every-speed

Electric Vehicles are the only vehicles that get cleaner the older they get(as the grid gets uses cleaner sources).
Also you can make your own fuel at home! Solar panels pay for themselves fast when they replace $4-$5 gasoline.

Oil refineries are the largest electricity users in California.
Nissan officially declared that it takes 7.5 kwh to refine one gallon of gasoline - enough to drive a real EV about 30 miles without even using that gasoline.

http://gatewayev.org/how-much-electricity-is-used-refine-a-gallon-of-gasoline


Just think which running car you would like to be in, in a closed garage? A 500e or any gas car.

msjulie33
08-07-2013, 12:27 AM
Even building, shipping, selling people-powered bikes has negative environmental impact, someplace ore is being mined, rubber for tires, etc.. People in general aren't the best thing that's happened to the planet... but, since people are still living on earth and will want/need to get from one place to another, there will be requirements to produce devices for transport. Current batteries may not be great but... if there is no research and development they won't get better. Go back a few decades and see how incredibly dirty and smelly gasoline engines were; though not perfect, the improvements are amazing and they had to be forced on auto makers.

Even if batteries can be produced that are completely safe, power produced w/o any negative side effects, there's still the rest of the car (metal, plastic, rubber, etc) - but with all that, I think getting away from burning something for propulsion is the right eventual direction. As with most things, there's no just black or white, no just one side to a story. So e-cars aren't perfect but getting accepted by more drivers seems a good start from what I can see, I'm excited/hopeful to see the improvements I believe have to come...

Andree
08-07-2013, 12:28 AM
This is the best part:

"For instance, if policymakers wish to reduce urban smog, they might note that vehicle pollution follows the Pareto principle, or 80-20 rule. Some 80 percent of tailpipe pollutants flow from just 20 percent of vehicles on the road—those with incomplete combustion. Using engineering and remote monitoring stations, communities could identify those cars and force them into the shop. That would be far less expensive and more effective than subsidizing a fleet of electric cars."

It's similar to Beijing's pollution problem too. The people that can least afford to buy a new vehicle are the ones with the polluting cars.

Even the Fiat Taxis in Mumbai are being outlawed, there were just a bunch of articles on it, here's one:
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/mumbais-venerable-fiat-taxis-begin-disappear-19848262

" "The main issue is of the pollution," says Ramesh Sarnaik, an inspector in the Road Transport Office. He said newer cars have fewer harmful emissions and will also give passengers a more comfortable ride, since new models have air-conditioning, which most Fiat taxis lack.

But for the thousands of taxi owners who can't afford to upgrade their vehicles, the new regulation will hurt."

And the goal of the CARS program in the US was to get older, polluting vehicles off the road and put newer, more efficient cars out there. It missed a whole bunch of poorer people who could not afford to buy a new car, no matter what the incentive. It was another prize package for the middle (or higher) income brackets.

Other than setting up an Amish-like community, there is no one "solution" yet. What IS good is to explore alternatives. Work on multiple solutions, considering all the aspects. Because everything counts.

I'm still amazed with the simplicity and practicality of auto on/off lighting used in office bathrooms. And they do that with cars, with "Stop/Go" or something. Car shuts off at a stop. Starts up when the accelerator is used. Simple. Practical. All those long traffic lights, no pollution fuming up city streets. That's a tiny solution, although I don't know what all goes into making the vehicle stop/go.

500ways
08-07-2013, 12:36 PM
go figure:

http://www.worldcarfans.com/113080661177/fiat--chrysler-dismiss-evs--hybrids-will-go-turbo-

Giuseppe
08-15-2013, 01:30 PM
You can't believe everything you read. It is not a true well to wheels study. Most of these people never take into consideration what it takes to make and transport the gasoline.
But they use electricity from the power plant.
That article is full of misinformation and outright lies.
Here is a rebuttal.

http://spectrum.ieee.org/green-tech/advanced-cars/a-rebuttal-evs-are-clean-at-every-speed

Electric Vehicles are the only vehicles that get cleaner the older they get(as the grid gets uses cleaner sources).
Also you can make your own fuel at home! Solar panels pay for themselves fast when they replace $4-$5 gasoline.

Oil refineries are the largest electricity users in California.
Nissan officially declared that it takes 7.5 kwh to refine one gallon of gasoline - enough to drive a real EV about 30 miles without even using that gasoline.

http://gatewayev.org/how-much-electricity-is-used-refine-a-gallon-of-gasoline


Just think which running car you would like to be in, in a closed garage? A 500e or any gas car.

That rebuttal is terribly written. All he refers to is net emissions. And that is all can site. Because gross emissions exceed that of a fossil fuel vehicle. It has been proven time and time again.

The real solution is hydrogen. I have not spent enough time studying what the delay is though. I would assume cost without researching it.