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View Full Version : Don't let this car do auto-cross, the car is completely unstable



shagghie
08-05-2013, 06:09 PM
7308

Fiats are just not stable enough to do auto-cross events. You can tell by this photo that the driver has lost control of the vehicle because of the inherent instability in all Fiats, including the new 500 Abarth model.

Jim McKenzie
08-05-2013, 06:17 PM
http://turbo124.com/forum/download/file.php?id=30134&sid=1fc6186e46445398e1b7107c0504b721

Fiats are just not stable enough to do auto-cross events. You can tell by this photo that the driver has lost control of the vehicle because of the inherent instability in all Fiats, including the new 500 Abarth model.

I think you may wish to edit your phrase "inherent instability in ALL Fiats" to reflect certain models. There are plenty of Fiat models that excel in autocross, including my favorite the X1/9. These 3 photos are of my car which just had the 240 HP K20 conversion done. I can understand if you are referring to the current 500 model exclusively, but even then your statement isn't completely accurate.729873007299

SailDesign
08-05-2013, 06:18 PM
http://turbo124.com/forum/download/file.php?id=30134&sid=1fc6186e46445398e1b7107c0504b721

Fiats are just not stable enough to do auto-cross events. You can tell by this photo that the driver has lost control of the vehicle because of the inherent instability in all Fiats, including the new 500 Abarth model.

Apparently, we are not stable enough to view this, either....

"You are not authorised to view, download or link from/to this site."

:D

shagghie
08-05-2013, 06:24 PM
I think you may wish to edit your phrase "inherent instability in ALL Fiats" to reflect certain models. There are plenty of Fiat models that excel in autocross, including my favorite the X1/9. These 3 photos are of my car which just had the 240 HP K20 conversion done. I can understand if you are referring to the current 500 model exclusively, but even then your statement isn't completely accurate.729873007299

Haha, this is a piss-take based on earlier threads about a certain SouthEast SCCA RE that claims this to be the case, based largely off of a photo of a 500 Abarth doing a stoppie. This photo is of a 131 doing one as well. Clearly, an unstable car by any standard. *rolls eyes*. Was that the same yellow X1/9 at qualcomm last month??? IF not there was one similar that was extremely quick...


Apparently, we are not stable enough to view this, either....

"You are not authorised to view, download or link from/to this site."

:D

Try this link and scroll down. I can't find a way to link to that photo directly that works for some reason...

http://turbo124.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12282

hecbom
08-05-2013, 06:49 PM
shagghie in the late 70's and mid 80's I autocrossed and raced SCCA "D" my Abarth Berlina Corsa 1000 and later my Fiat 850 coupe in "H" production. In fact the 850 was dominant in the under 1000cc category. Many in the SCCA also said the cars were unstable because of the rear engine weight bias. I in particular held many "best time" with the SCCA Central Region in Orlando Florida and no I never flipped the car or went backwards. Jim In the period between 1987 through 89 I raced a fiat x1/9 "yellow" like yours and had many best times at Daytona International where we held many races. At that time I was racing with Bayless Racing sponsorship when he was still in Atlanta Ga. One last comment, last May I did a solo 2 and had to enter as a novice even though I am not but I had the pleasure to blow off the track mini cooper "s" as well as Miatas with my stock 2013 Abarth. No RRM modules or CAI just stock from the factory. I did not feel or experience any instabilities or a tendency for the car to lean so I am not sure what happened with that other driver you wrote about. Trust me, my racing experience goes all the way back to IMSA Firehawk series in the mid 80's as well Vinatge and SCCA Club racing.

Mike S
08-05-2013, 06:56 PM
Welcome!!!
Maybe the new cars will catch up with the old ones.

hecbom
08-05-2013, 07:20 PM
Mike I live here in Whittier California but my parents live in Tampa. I used to live in Orlando and was very active in the SCCA Central Region!! I can assure you the Abarth 500 are stable as hell! check this out!
http://teamabarth.tumblr.com/

Robert Nixon
08-05-2013, 07:30 PM
For what it's worth, after being one of the two Abarths that were excluded from the one SCCA region, I filed a question about this with the national SCCA Solo Events Board, and will let you know when they rule on the basic question if one of their subordinate regions can blanket ban a car (new Fiat 500 Abarth) that has already been ruled legal and raced for SCCA Solo events in G Stock and various other modified classes.

MADNESSLuckyJay
08-05-2013, 07:40 PM
From what I heard a while ago, the first problem SCCA had was that the FIAT 500s are taller than they are wide, and that was something they didn't approve of. But also have heard that they made a new class to run the cars in

shagghie
08-05-2013, 07:43 PM
For what it's worth, after being one of the two Abarths that were excluded from the one SCCA region, I filed a question about this with the national SCCA Solo Events Board, and will let you know when they rule on the basic question if one of their subordinate regions can blanket ban a car (new Fiat 500 Abarth) that has already been ruled legal and raced for SCCA Solo events in G Stock and various other modified classes.

Awesome Robert...thanks again for all your hard work on this topic earlier. I'm in SMF class here in San Diego, and the car gets more compliments on how it goes over the road than I can keep track of. Inside rear, and even inside front under trail breaking with the Z2's on. The just gets better from stock so far, so I can't imagine it being unstable even with slicks on.. hope to find out about THAT in the next few months if I can source some cheap 15" wheels with Hoosiers. Every time I let an instructor drive the car they are blown away and full of compliments... and their times even with two on board and their first time out end up being right at top compared to the other SM(F) cars. I drive like a complete a55hole too, so if anyone was going to unlock any 'instability' in this car, it would have been me by now.

Robert Nixon
08-05-2013, 07:52 PM
From what I heard a while ago, the first problem SCCA had was that the FIAT 500s are taller than they are wide, and that was something they didn't approve of. But also have heard that they made a new class to run the cars in

Not a new class, the Fiat 500 Abarth runs in G Stock. With any mods more than 1 sway bar and an air filter you run in STC I believe. More mods beyond that take it into other SCCA categories. The standard Fiat 500 is NOT eligible for SCCA Solo (autocross events).

shagghie
08-05-2013, 07:58 PM
It's the C.O.G., not the raw height that matters in relation to the width. Standard 500's can run (at least out here), if they are lowered and/or are running on Abarth OEM suspension.

Tweak
08-05-2013, 08:58 PM
I think you may wish to edit your phrase "inherent instability in ALL Fiats" to reflect certain models. There are plenty of Fiat models that excel in autocross, including my favorite the X1/9. These 3 photos are of my car which just had the 240 HP K20 conversion done. I can understand if you are referring to the current 500 model exclusively, but even then your statement isn't completely accurate.729873007299

As later stated, just sarcasm. :D Your car looks great by the way!


Haha, this is a piss-take based on earlier threads about a certain SouthEast SCCA RE that claims this to be the case, based largely off of a photo of a 500 Abarth doing a stoppie. This photo is of a 131 doing one as well. Clearly, an unstable car by any standard. *rolls eyes*. Was that the same yellow X1/9 at qualcomm last month??? IF not there was one similar that was extremely quick...



Try this link and scroll down. I can't find a way to link to that photo directly that works for some reason...

http://turbo124.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12282

When I go there I see no pics for some reason, all attachments there don't show for me but may work for others. Just saying.


shagghie in the late 70's and mid 80's I autocrossed and raced SCCA "D" my Abarth Berlina Corsa 1000 and later my Fiat 850 coupe in "H" production. In fact the 850 was dominant in the under 1000cc category. Many in the SCCA also said the cars were unstable because of the rear engine weight bias. I in particular held many "best time" with the SCCA Central Region in Orlando Florida and no I never flipped the car or went backwards. Jim In the period between 1987 through 89 I raced a fiat x1/9 "yellow" like yours and had many best times at Daytona International where we held many races. At that time I was racing with Bayless Racing sponsorship when he was still in Atlanta Ga. One last comment, last May I did a solo 2 and had to enter as a novice even though I am not but I had the pleasure to blow off the track mini cooper "s" as well as Miatas with my stock 2013 Abarth. No RRM modules or CAI just stock from the factory. I did not feel or experience any instabilities or a tendency for the car to lean so I am not sure what happened with that other driver you wrote about. Trust me, my racing experience goes all the way back to IMSA Firehawk series in the mid 80's as well Vinatge and SCCA Club racing.

Welcome to the forum.

dylansi
08-05-2013, 09:48 PM
I think you may wish to edit your phrase "inherent instability in ALL Fiats" to reflect certain models. There are plenty of Fiat models that excel in autocross, including my favorite the X1/9. These 3 photos are of my car which just had the 240 HP K20 conversion done. I can understand if you are referring to the current 500 model exclusively, but even then your statement isn't completely accurate.729873007299

Motor looks to be a k20a3 (out of non "S" RSX) with a different intake manifold (RSX non S had the plastic IM, Civic Si had the metal IM) raher than a k20a. Or possibly a k20a2. k20a head was painted red from the factory, with a silver plastic cover

jguerdat
08-06-2013, 08:51 AM
For what it's worth, after being one of the two Abarths that were excluded from the one SCCA region, I filed a question about this with the national SCCA Solo Events Board, and will let you know when they rule on the basic question if one of their subordinate regions can blanket ban a car (new Fiat 500 Abarth) that has already been ruled legal and raced for SCCA Solo events in G Stock and various other modified classes.

I have one in, too, letter #11874. Also have one in for camber bolts being disallowed in the new Street class while $5k set of shocks are allowed (#11986).

Abarth67
08-06-2013, 08:53 AM
shagghie in the late 70's and mid 80's I autocrossed and raced SCCA "D" my Abarth Berlina Corsa 1000 and later my Fiat 850 coupe in "H" production. In fact the 850 was dominant in the under 1000cc category. Many in the SCCA also said the cars were unstable because of the rear engine weight bias. I in particular held many "best time" with the SCCA Central Region in Orlando Florida and no I never flipped the car or went backwards. Jim In the period between 1987 through 89 I raced a fiat x1/9 "yellow" like yours and had many best times at Daytona International where we held many races. At that time I was racing with Bayless Racing sponsorship when he was still in Atlanta Ga. One last comment, last May I did a solo 2 and had to enter as a novice even though I am not but I had the pleasure to blow off the track mini cooper "s" as well as Miatas with my stock 2013 Abarth. No RRM modules or CAI just stock from the factory. I did not feel or experience any instabilities or a tendency for the car to lean so I am not sure what happened with that other driver you wrote about. Trust me, my racing experience goes all the way back to IMSA Firehawk series in the mid 80's as well Vinatge and SCCA Club racing.

Some cool stories there. I would love to sit and talk with you about the old days of FIAT racing sometime. Very cool stuff. Hey, if you ever want to share some of the stories in print, I publish the FIAT Club America Magazine RICAMBI and would love to have some material like that. Photos and cool stories would be fantastic. No need to be a professional writer, just need to tell the stories. I will also give you freedom to say what you want. Think about it.

http://i41.tinypic.com/dh4a9w.jpg

hecbom
08-06-2013, 10:17 AM
Abarth67 first off I want to make sure you are not Brad from Alfa Ricambi? I used to buy parts from him for my Alfa years ago but that is another subject. Yes I have stories to tell and I have many pictures from my days racing my Abath's and Alfas including Vintage and Historic car racing. I also did the IMSA Firehawk series from 86-88 racing an ALFA GTV6 and we did real well for a privateer. The best tracks for me were Sebring ,Road Atlanta and Daytona and for street racing the St. Petersburg GP and Miami GP. The competition was fierce but also lots of fun. The one race that I remember the most was at the St. Petersburg GP street race where five different categories were split up in the field. We had the under 1000cc cars, the under 2000cc, 3000cc etc. all the way up to 5L including a friend of mine’s Ferrari 275 swb prototype. At the start of the race, I was able to sneak past many cars that were way faster than my Berlina Corsa in a straight line but they could not out handle or brake the Go-Kart like handling of the Abarth. What got the spectators cheering wildly was that I was able to catch the Ferrari and in a tight right hander, I was able to pass him on the inside and pull away from him. This was David against Goliath and the crowd went wild. The St. Pete street track was very twisty and had one long straight of about 300 meters in length so it was advantage Abarth and disadvantage every other car except mini cooper s, Alfa juniors and bug eye sprites of the 60’s era. After the race, I was asked to come up to the podium and explain how I was able to pass Porsche 911, 356’s, some older Mustangs (66) including the Ferrari? My response was “The Sting of the Scorpion” as Carlos Abarth use to say. In reality it was the nature of the track that gave me the advantage not speed or horse power. Keep in mind I had a 988cc engine putting out 100 hp at 8500 rpm and the car, fully laden weighed about 1400 lbs with me in it. These cars were very tricky to drive and they oversteer just like a Porsche or any rear engine car so you had to have a feel when the rear was drifting so you could correct to keep the car from hitting the wall or going into a sand trap. Back in 1986 we had the “Abarth Concurrenti” at Sebring a get together of all Abarth from the United States and Europe. I have pictures from that event and I will see if I can get them scanned so I can send them to you to post. I also had a 750 Monza GT with a 988cc in it (very fast in straight line) due to the excellent aerodynamics, a 1960 Double Bubble and my Berlina Corsa factory race car. Today my brother has the double bubble and I sold the Corsa and the Monza to a collector friend of mine after I quit racing shortly after my son was born. Any questions you have about these cars or racing in the 80’s pm me and I will try to answer them the best of my recollection.

Ciao!
Ettore

Abarth67
08-06-2013, 10:32 AM
Nope, not Brad. My name is Brett. My email is brett67@comcast dot net, please email me sometime and we can get some of your stories into the magazine. I love stuff like this. Thanks

shagghie
08-06-2013, 11:26 AM
Does anyone remember the Native Tan sponsored SCCA Spider circa early 80's in the midwest circuit?

shagghie
08-06-2013, 01:39 PM
FWIW, this is the original picture I was referencing in my sarcasm in the OP:

7307

Abarth Five O
08-06-2013, 06:44 PM
Be sure to get a roll cage too for safety and pom.

Saxonite
08-07-2013, 04:37 PM
I've autocrossed my car twice and had not felt the car become unstable once. So long as the car is being driven rationally it will remain planted. I wouldn't be surprised that once the stock class gets rid of slick tires next year they would allow the non abarth cars into stock class. Any car can flip over or spin out if driven incorrectly.

jguerdat
08-08-2013, 07:44 AM
Actually, the new Street class rules still exclude the non-Abarth 500s without lowering which sticks 'em in STF. ALso, in autocross, as in real life, one can't expect any car to be driven rationally. Someone, someplace, is gonn eff up...

abarth&911
08-28-2013, 12:48 PM
For what it's worth, after being one of the two Abarths that were excluded from the one SCCA region, I filed a question about this with the national SCCA Solo Events Board, and will let you know when they rule on the basic question if one of their subordinate regions can blanket ban a car (new Fiat 500 Abarth) that has already been ruled legal and raced for SCCA Solo events in G Stock and various other modified classes.


I have one in, too, letter #11874. Also have one in for camber bolts being disallowed in the new Street class while $5k set of shocks are allowed (#11986).

Did you received an answer to your letter?
I check the Sept. Fastrack and didn't saw anything about it.

Robert Nixon
08-28-2013, 01:19 PM
No answer yet, but they say it is now on their schedule. I know it takes them time to sort through the hundreds of questions they get.

Right now the website to track my letter states:


"Letter #11933 is currently on the SEB agenda.
After the SEB committee reviews your letter, it will be sent to the SEB for their review. "

jguerdat
08-29-2013, 07:07 AM
+1 for me, too.