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View Full Version : Old news, haha, and 500e numbers



Andree
07-26-2013, 07:33 AM
AUTOS
November 19, 2012, 7:56 p.m. ET

California Spurs Electric Cars
California Requirement Prompts Auto Makers to Build, Sell Zero Emissions Vehicles That Few Customers Seem to Want

"Chrysler Group LLC next week plans to unveil an unusual automobile—an electric car that doesn't stand a chance soon of turning a profit and is unlikely to draw many customers."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323894704578115153704768888.html

I think that's hilarious. They really had no idea less than a year ago just how popular the 500e would turn out to be.

The thing I went looking for was how many electric vehicles a manufacturer must sell per year. And the article gave this:

"The number of zero-emission cars that must be sold under the California rules is determined by a complicated formula and can vary, depending on whether an auto maker gets credits for hybrids, electric cars or other high-mileage vehicles sold in the past. Generally, a car maker that sells 100,000 vehicles a year in California would have to sell at least 1,000 battery-powered electric cars with a 100-mile range a year starting in 2015."

and a specific Toyota example:

"The increasing sales targets present the biggest challenge for Toyota, which last year sold 240,000 vehicles in California. By 2015, the company would be required to sell Californians about 2,100 electric cars with a 100-mile range, based on its 2011 sales in the state. In addition, Toyota will have to sell an even higher number of plug-in vehicles, cars that have both a gas engine and a battery-powered motor that can be recharged via an electrical outlet."

Remember Fiat is Chrysler, and that includes Jeep, Ram Trucks, Dodge. And they don't have a bunch of hybrids or electric cars sold previously for the credits. So they will have to make the cars in the minimum numbers.

We'll need to find out the total yearly sales of all Chrysler vehicles in California to get an idea of how many electric cars may become available each year. After a few years, it will be more complex, if they get the "past credits" for the cars already made.

Fiat is almost at the 100-mile range with the 500e. That's good.

There's just no way that the cars made for this year will cover the demand. I can now see why Fiat isn't eager to increase production on the 500e. Who will buy the car next year if everyone gets a car this year? So it makes sense to have the minimum number of cars per year, and let them sell out each year.

I'm thinking one way of doing the 500e each year is to have one numbered model, ala Prima. As well as some mixed colors/interiors like we have this year. Or maybe something more expensive along the lines of the Abarth Tributo models, with the special seats. Something REALLY different and yet, very familiar.

Making the 500e it's own line of levels of comfort or performance or range.

There's already a car that has done this, Scion iQ to Aston Martin Cygnet. They've upgraded the crap out of the Scion iQ interior to become "a luxury city car". http://www.astonmartin.com/cars/aston-martin-cygnet

When *I* look at the black interior at the bottom of the first page, I think "too much stitching". But, this must be a sign of luxury. LOL. Anyway, they too have a configurator to play with the colors. With an inner and outer area on the door, which would work for our Fiat 500s. Dash color, the stitching detail would be fine along the the accent line on our dashes.

I made a couple, one is brown/gray, the other is red/cream:
7183

The Cygnet is around $45,000 or so. It's $30,000 more than the Scion iQ.

"Key Competitors
As a premium-priced microcar, the Cygnet doesn't have any true competitors."

and

"It is the first Aston Martin in more than 60 years to utilize a four cylinder engine, in this case a tiny, unrefined 1.3-liter unit producing the same 94 horsepower and 89 lb-ft. of torque as the iQ.

Sadly, the Cygnet is also the first Aston to use a continuously variable transmission, a buzzy and droning device also borrowed from the iQ that is intended to eke out every last MPG from the tiny engine. Fuel efficiency is a combined 37 MPG."

http://www.leftlanenews.com/new-car-buying/aston-martin/cygnet/#

I say we change that. I say we make a Fiat 500e Luxury edition.

This would more than cover the cost of the car (not losing money on the Luxury edition). And having it be an electric vehicle seems to go with some luxury tastes, in that it's silent. No buzzy, no droning, more horsepower, better mpg (electric), much better styling, etc.

Limited numbers, around 100 cars or so. Each year.

And dump the back seats. Don't even bother pretending there are back seats in the Luxury model. Set up the back area with storage and plenty of room for designer shopping bags. heh. (Edit: wait, keep the back seats, there's less back seat room in the Cygnet)

I'm sure there would be no problem selling 100 luxury electric 500s each year. I think they'd be very high demand.

Later edit add-on: The two combos I made are similar to the brown/silver interior on the Sport and the red/ivory on the Pop/Lounge. We get the colorful arm rest already, but the addition of the super smooth leather in colors to the rest of the door looks really nice. It would carry over into the back seats as well, and the cargo cover would be coordinated with the leather interior.

I'd still keep the retro looking radio and hvac controls, that's part of the whole "look".

No, I couldn't afford it, but it's not for me. It's for people who want a luxury electric city car. There SHOULD be a choice for a luxury electric city car. Let Fiat build it.

Cheri500e
08-08-2013, 08:01 PM
Any idea how many 500e's they are making each year? (or did I miss the number in this post?). One dealer told me "thousands", yeah right. I was thinking more like hundreds. Have seen at least 4 in my neck of the woods out in the wild though.

Andree
08-08-2013, 08:46 PM
Any idea how many 500e's they are making each year? (or did I miss the number in this post?). One dealer told me "thousands", yeah right. I was thinking more like hundreds. Have seen at least 4 in my neck of the woods out in the wild though.

Roughly there would be 1 electric per 100 vehicles sold in California.

And I found this article just now:

"Chrysler Group volume increased 50 percent to 77,266 registrations in California in 2012, up from 51,517 registrations in 2011. In comparison, industry sales in California last year grew by only 26 percent."

So, under 800 electric cars? I thought the number would be higher, of the overall sales of Chrysler products in California and of the number of electric cars being made.

The way Sergio has talked about the car, he will not have made ONE CAR MORE than what was required. Nobody wants to lose money on a car.

All the more reason to be glad you got your treasure! And to suggest people not dilly dally when it comes to choosing/picking up their 500e.

I'm not sure on the exact count of dealerships in California either, but let's say there are 25. If the 500e was distributed equally among the dealerships (and it's not), that would be only 32 cars per Studio.

georges
08-09-2013, 04:05 AM
A salesman told me that Fiat is going to
make 1700 500e's for 2013, then 3200 each for 2014 & 2015.
Has anyone else heard anything about this?
He said they heard this in some sort of meeting about the
500e a couple of weeks ago.

Andree
08-09-2013, 05:55 AM
Georges, those are numbers I was more expecting, around 1,500 for the first year and each successive year.

But I don't know enough about this Emissions Board and the magic formula to know what counts for what, now and in the long run. I don't know ANYTHING other than those couple of blurbs I've posted.

Do you remember the CARS program a few years back? People thought there would be plenty of time to take advantage of the trade-in for a new car with an extra financial incentive courtesy the government. I was telling people to go, immediately, to the dealer of your choice, and get in line outside before the program starts and get the deal done the first day of the program.

It (edit here, I said "I", heh) was a big mess, and nobody knew what they were doing, in the beginning. Most wrinkles were ironed out...and the program ran out of money way before anyone had expected. Here's a snippet from Wiki:

"Although the program officially started on July 1, 2009, the processing of claims did not begin until July 24,[2] and the program ended on August 24, as the appropriated resources were exhausted.[3][4] The deadline for dealers to submit applications was August 25.[5] According to estimates of the Department of Transportation, the initial $1 billion appropriated for the system was exhausted by July 30, 2009, well before the anticipated end date of November 1, 2009, due to very high demand.[6][7][8] In response, Congress approved an additional $2 billion."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_Allowance_Rebate_System

Blew through a billion dollars in a month, and another 2 billion in about another month. It NEVER made it even CLOSE to the estimated closing date of Nov 1.

I liken the unexpected popularity of the 500e to the CARS program. No one expected it to be that popular.

More money was added to the program, and perhaps more electrics will be added to the initial production plans. Sergio seemed unlikely to add any more though, because of the LOSS per car.

Could have changed his mind, when the 500e went from being the burden of Fiat to make, to the shining superstar of the line.

And there are those additional costs for dealers, such as needing to put in chargers at their dealerships. Dealers aren't making money on the car on the $199 lease. Seems totally against the rules to make a car that is at a loss for the manufacturer and requires the dealerships to pay to add extra equipment without recouping their loss and the point of sale. Nope, they're supposed to pitch in to make the $199 lease happen.

There's still money to be made, in the trade-ins and in future service needs. Parts and accessories. Wait, I have NO idea what kind of service needs there are for electric cars.

Anyway...

All we have are rumors. We have no exact number. It could be tomorrow when we get an announcement saying "That's all, folks". Or we could have a delightful trickle of 500e cars for months.

Let's pull up an old saying:

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

If you want one, and can buy/lease one now, that's your bird in the hand.

If you wait, wanting to see what else will come in, and hope that your local dealer that has your deposit where you're on a list one hundred names down will eventually get the car in your ideal configurations...that may not happen. There may be NO birds in the bush.

“You’ve got to ask yourself one question: ‘Do I feel lucky?’ Well, do ya, punk?”

Sorry, I couldn't resist that Dirty Harry quote. I'm sure you're a perfectly nice person and not at all a punk.

Fiat500USA
08-09-2013, 07:55 AM
I was told they want to build as many as people want. They scheduled a certain amount to be made and were surprised by the demand. They want to increase production, but remember, this isn't a subway sandwich, parts need to be ordered from suppliers from around the world and then production schedules need to be juggled, etc.

msjulie33
08-09-2013, 09:16 AM
I was told they want to build as many as people want. They scheduled a certain amount to be made and were surprised by the demand.

I'm glad they were surprised and I hope they really do want to make more - there has to be some value in more Fiats on the road right? Was waiting outside a place last night (in my 500c) and in the space of 5 mins 2 sports drove by. Nice! except they didn't seem to notice my shiny little car! :frown:

Andree
08-09-2013, 12:34 PM
I was told they want to build as many as people want. They scheduled a certain amount to be made and were surprised by the demand. They want to increase production, but remember, this isn't a subway sandwich, parts need to be ordered from suppliers from around the world and then production schedules need to be juggled, etc.

Depends on who told you or what articles are read. I just posted a link to an article from a couple days ago and they say

"Despite its popularity, Fiat has no plans to increase 500E production,"

http://gas2.org/2013/08/07/fiat-500e-199-lease-deal-difficult-to-land/

Are the cars coming in now part of "increased production" or part of the original planned production?

It's all moot, we don't know how many they made in the first place.

Vince
08-09-2013, 10:26 PM
I have a friend who was involved in the 500e program. He has been test driving one for over a year (84 miles each way to work, talk about cutting it close). Anyway, he said they made around 500 for 2013 and plan on the same amount for 2014. They are compliance cars. They loose $30,000 per car, but they figure it into the cost of selling cars in California (that is why they don't offer the car in any other state).

Vince

Andree
08-10-2013, 09:44 AM
I have a friend who was involved in the 500e program. He has been test driving one for over a year (84 miles each way to work, talk about cutting it close). Anyway, he said they made around 500 for 2013 and plan on the same amount for 2014. They are compliance cars. They loose $30,000 per car, but they figure it into the cost of selling cars in California (that is why they don't offer the car in any other state).

Vince

Five hundred 500s. LOL. If true, that's about 20 cars per dealership. Which means all the cars are pretty much out there right now, and that's it.

Raindrops
08-10-2013, 11:53 AM
Five hundred 500s. LOL. If true, that's about 20 cars per dealership. Which means all the cars are pretty much out there right now, and that's it.

the information I got from two large reputable dealers in NorCal and one medium sized one was the prod between 800 and 1200 thru dec...

The 500 total may just be for model year 2013, not calendar year. Remember, carmakers now shipping 2014 models.. See billboard ads for the Spark EV.. Or clearance ads for regular automakers on the regular 2013 models...

When I was in So cal, a very large reputable dealer told me 3200! Prob over 2-3 year period.His colleague also said "in the thousands".. He said he has a special relationship with Fiat, as he is large volume dealer..which is believable, because this dealership has been honoring the lease deal since day 1...(and that number could also be as rollout to more than CA).. Remember also, another compliance period starts from 2015-2017.

There is no incentive for Fiat Corporate to say making more cars...the more scarce the perception of an item, the higher a price.

Fiat500USA
08-10-2013, 12:59 PM
The info I get doesn't come from somebody at a dealership or out of an article. I have different sources and it is what I was told and, knowing who they are, I'm comfortable with that. biggrin

Raindrops
08-10-2013, 01:37 PM
The info I get doesn't come from somebody at a dealership or out of an article. I have different sources and it is what I was told and, knowing who they are, I'm comfortable with that. biggrin


that is good news then!!

yes, battery production constraints immediately come to mind as one of the parts!

Now if you can just tell your source that someone really really wants a Grigio with Sunroof with Sports Package.... :eagerness:

Fiat500USA
08-10-2013, 01:58 PM
Now if you can just tell your source that someone really really wants a Grigio with Sunroof with Sports Package.... :eagerness:


Me too!

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-H6Z7xP--mdE/ULV0ncpydvI/AAAAAAAAOfs/vIOf3-V4zJM/s640/Fiat500USA.com-Fiat%2520500e%2520debut%2520%252830%2529.jpg

Andree
08-10-2013, 04:59 PM
The info I get doesn't come from somebody at a dealership or out of an article. I have different sources and it is what I was told and, knowing who they are, I'm comfortable with that. biggrin

Except all you said was "build as many as people want". That's not a number. I need a number. LOL.

Too much confusing information on the production and all the rest. The mystery warehouses. The supposed ability to get the car you want without waiting via the warehouse. Not all dealers showing up on the Fiat site, so the "search" over there is utterly worthless. Few gray and silver cars showing up while looking around at dealerships and almost no eSports showing in the searches anywhere, and yet people are getting them, we have pictures to show it.

Okay, I have to go paste wax the balcony railing.

Andree
08-10-2013, 06:57 PM
that is good news then!!

yes, battery production constraints immediately come to mind as one of the parts!

Now if you can just tell your source that someone really really wants a Grigio with Sunroof with Sports Package.... :eagerness:

I sent you a message, did you get it?

Raindrops
08-11-2013, 02:20 AM
No, I didn't see anything and just checked now...
Thanks

Andree
08-11-2013, 07:50 AM
No, I didn't see anything and just checked now...
Thanks

Oh, I'm such a doofus. I sent to someone else. So many love the looks of the Grigio eSport. All I said was that there is/was a Grigio/black w/sunroof regular model at Santa Monica.

Thought it might be worth checking out in person, for those totally loving the eSport of the same color.

It can really ramp up the enthusiasm to check out the car in person before buying/leasing it, and this one is as close to the eSport version I've seen.

Lots of orange coming in, plenty of white and black. But I haven't seen too many silver or gray cars on my searches.

Fiat500USA
08-11-2013, 01:02 PM
Except all you said was "build as many as people want". That's not a number. I need a number. LOL.



There is only so much that can be discussed and I relay whatever I can or am allowed to depending on my sources. gr_grin

Andree
08-11-2013, 05:51 PM
There is only so much that can be discussed and I relay whatever I can or am allowed to depending on my sources. gr_grin

Now that they've run out of doodads, no cars will be shipping, according to a post in the "out there" thread:
http://www.fiat500usaforum.com/showthread.php?10919-They-re-out-there-waiting!&p=622999&viewfull=1#post622999

Raindrops
09-04-2013, 11:23 PM
I have a friend who was involved in the 500e program. He has been test driving one for over a year (84 miles each way to work, talk about cutting it close). Anyway, he said they made around 500 for 2013 and plan on the same amount for 2014. They are compliance cars. They loose $30,000 per car, but they figure it into the cost of selling cars in California (that is why they don't offer the car in any other state).

Vince

Vince, you win the prize! :)

Fiat produced 491 in 2013, won't restart production until 2014... Ok, so maybe bolt snafu put a kink in the plans or fiat500usa would have been correct... .See www.insideevs.com August monthly sales report

Anyway, looks like about 180 of these still available this year, then sold out until 2014.. Report estimates 310 sold/lease thru august

Also, the aeroenvironment free charger program apparently has 300 free chargers this month (but u pay for installation and city permit)..

And according to another poster on separate forum, if you are leasing a non-Chrysler car, you can get addl 1000 off MRSP.. On top of all the state and any county rebates!

500eee
09-05-2013, 12:03 AM
And according to another poster on separate forum, if you are leasing a non-Chrysler car, you can get addl 1000 off MRSP.. On top of all the state and any county rebates!

Cool, can you give us the link or explain this extra $1,000 towards the 500e lease?

<<EDIT>> I found the link= http://www.fiat500owners.com/forum/66-fiat-500e/17402-save-another-1000-1500-500e-lease-purchase.html

Andree
09-05-2013, 02:47 AM
Vince, you win the prize! :)

Fiat produced 491 in 2013, won't restart production until 2014... Ok, so maybe bolt snafu put a kink in the plans or fiat500usa would have been correct... .See www.insideevs.com August monthly sales report

Anyway, looks like about 180 of these still available this year, then sold out until 2014.. Report estimates 310 sold/lease thru august

Also, the aeroenvironment free charger program apparently has 300 free chargers this month (but u pay for installation and city permit)..

And according to another poster on separate forum, if you are leasing a non-Chrysler car, you can get addl 1000 off MRSP.. On top of all the state and any county rebates!

Link to the report card for all the electric cars:
http://insideevs.com/august-2013-plug-in-electric-vehicle-sales-report-card/

Scroll way down to the bottom in the comments area, and check the chart made by Tony Williams on September 4, 2013 at 1:39 pm .

Honda is really going to crush the electric Fits? That has to be the most wasteful practice ever.

New electric vehicle rule (from me): The vehicles must be offered for sale in addition to lease, or they don't count towards the total required to sell regular cars.

It's another moment to appreciate Fiat for actually SELLING the electric cars, fully intending on servicing the vehicles for their lifetime, rather than treating them like disposable diapers.