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danny_1
07-18-2013, 02:00 AM
Just picked it up this evening in San Diego at Kearney Mesa Fiat. I got the orange. I would have to say that it is exactly as the reviewers that I read online described, except that I personally feel that the acceleration is better than some reviewers described at higher speeds. It was driven home at 90mph on I-5 and it got to 90 easily and quickly.

Here is what it cost for anyone who cares:

$31,800 base
$500 orange paint
$395 steam white interior
$800 destination charge
Total: $33,495

I also got the $1995 level 2 charger.

Here is some potentially useful info for anyone else who is purchasing. Remember the $2000 rebate? The only way you can get it is by financing it through Fiat and not using the 0% financing option. That was semi-annoying to me but it can be by-passed by signing up for the financing (I signed up for the 60 months financing). If you pay off the car immediately after signing the financing deal then you collect the $2000. But, basically you have to pay cash for the car if you want the $2000 rebate. Or you could consider the $2000 rebate as another option to lease the car for essentially 0% for 4 or 5 years.

After taxes, fees,registration, etc. it was a grand total of $41,476 including the $2230 in finance charges over 5 years plus the level-2 charger. But I will not be paying the finance charges, so for me the grand total was about $39,250.

I will be getting $10,000 back in rebates (California and federal, obviously). So the car will cost me a total of about $29,250 after everything (including taxes, fees, level-2 charger and registration). If I can sell it in exactly 3 years or so from today then I am wondering if I can get $23,000? Is that too much to assume, I wonder? If so then this car will have made me several thousands in profit (assuming I can count my gas savings as a profit...).

tpoltron
07-18-2013, 02:06 AM
Congrats. I picked up the exact same spec in the San Francisco bay area today and love it - except that the lease was 22% more than the advertised $199.

Enjoy,
Trent

danny_1
07-18-2013, 02:13 AM
Yeah..I just read your posts about that. I knew that was going to happen. I wonder if Fiat will eventually cancel the lease program as it exists today? I am pretty sure that you are paying the same as everyone else, basically, on the lease. So at least you probably didn't pay some kind of early-adopter fee. My guess is that the lease prices will increase on this car at some point (unless they really only make a tiny handful).

Also, it is still really cheap for the price you're paying, in my opinion (but I get your frustration).

Andree
07-18-2013, 02:38 AM
Yay Danny! I'm so excited for you! Please, pretty please, pics of the interior?

Are you still planning on getting a second one?

Andree
07-18-2013, 02:39 AM
Glad you did get it, Trent. Hoping to see it around town, I'm up by Fort Funston. Pics?

Tell us about the sound it makes when it goes at low speeds!

Robert Nixon
07-18-2013, 08:47 AM
congrats on the new cars!

Ryephile
07-18-2013, 10:12 AM
Congrats! I'd love to see some "real world" pictures of the 500e, please post 'em up if you have any. :)

I'm also curious as to why you chose to buy instead of lease. You mention selling after 3 years; I assume the number work out but just wanted to hear your perspective on that.

tpoltron
07-18-2013, 10:43 AM
Here's pics from fresh off the truck, before they even pulled all the plastic covers off.
7103
7104

marc04
07-18-2013, 11:58 AM
Congrats Danny & Trent! Really excited for both of you.

Trent, which Bay Area dealer did you buy through? And do you know what deposit number in line you were?

Thanks!
-Marc

ReconTopher
07-18-2013, 12:19 PM
that white interior looks gorgeous, and yet scares me at the same time.

danny_1
07-18-2013, 12:46 PM
Yay Danny! I'm so excited for you! Please, pretty please, pics of the interior?

Are you still planning on getting a second one?

I had to leave very early this morning so I haven't had much time to spend with the car yet. I have only driven it home. I will try to post some pics this evening if I am not too tired...but it is just the orange model without a sunroof. And I saw that another member uploaded his already.

Yes, I am still planing to get the second Fiat 500e. That one will be white (blanca perla...or something like that, I believe) and will have black interior and the e-sport package. The dealer told me it should be here within a week or two. I hope that color combo looks ok...it was sort of a gamble picking that color combo.

danny_1
07-18-2013, 01:13 PM
Congrats! I'd love to see some "real world" pictures of the 500e, please post 'em up if you have any. :)

I'm also curious as to why you chose to buy instead of lease. You mention selling after 3 years; I assume the number work out but just wanted to hear your perspective on that.

I chose to buy because, for me, this was primarily a financial decision (I know...not cool).

Here is the financial "formula" I used if anyone is even interested in it:

1) total cost (including taxes, registration and the level-2 charger) is $39,250 (also, remember that this assumes you pay cash for the car by financing for one day so that you can acquire the $2000 rebate...otherwise you are looking at about $41,500)
2) For me, I spend about $3000 on gas per year so 3 years means about $9000
3) I have free charging at work so I will mostly do that; I have assumed that I will only spend about $500 per year on electricity since I will almost always fill up at work which means my total cost for electricity for 3 years will be $1500; so I can calculate a "savings" of $7500 for those 3 years
4) $39,250 (total cost) - $7500 (gas savings) - $2500 (Cali rebate) - $7500 (federal) = $21,750

I am buying two cars so the second one will not require another $1995 level-2 charger since I can share the one I bought between both cars. So, the second will cost me about $2000 less. So, the second car will cost about $20,000 after all rebates and gas savings. So, I will have "spent" about $42,000 between both cars after 3 years. If I can sell them both for $23,000 each then I will have made $4000 "profit" plus I was able to drive a nice electric for 3 years without paying for it.

Stupid of our gov't to have created this program which people can only take advantage of if they make over roughly $120,000 per year but whatever. Lower-income people will never be able to get the refund which is beyond stupid since that is what would actually propel these cars forward (my opinion only). Instead, all taxpayers (from poor to rich) will be the ones paying for me to take advantage of this nice car for free and also to walk away with some of their hard-earned money in my pocket (not being rude...just expressing it).

So, long-winded and I apologize for that. But that is basically the reason I bought instead of leasing.

danny_1
07-18-2013, 01:26 PM
Congrats! I'd love to see some "real world" pictures of the 500e, please post 'em up if you have any. :)

I'm also curious as to why you chose to buy instead of lease. You mention selling after 3 years; I assume the number work out but just wanted to hear your perspective on that.

Also, the lease would have cost about $250 per month plus the $1000 down. I could have leased 2 cars instead and it would have been an "OK" deal but I would have never owned the cars and would have had to return them after 3 years. Technically I would have leased them for basically nothing over the 3 years (assuming the gas savings for me) but then I would have had to buy another electric right after that (or lease it). With the purchase of the Fiat I could decide to just keep it more than 3 years depending on the value of my car then. Think about this: the rebates will definitely be gone in 3 years so mfr's will have to find a way to get over that $10,000 hump. I know that technology will advance and prices should drop on electric vehicles but I don't see how it will progress so far in just 36 months that prices will come down $10k on comparable tech (plus, remember that Fiat is still losing $10k per car and they won't be doing that in 3 years). So I expect that the new electric in 2016 from Fiat will have more range and better specs but I also expect that it will be at least $36,000. My 2013 Fiat should still be a good deal at $23,000 because the battery will have an 8-year warranty and if it fails during the end of the 8-year warranty then Fiat will most likely have to replace it with a current battery which has more range. The 8-year warranty for those who buy it now was the icing on the cake for me.

Ryephile
07-18-2013, 04:35 PM
Thanks for breaking it down! I had a hunch you had already calculated it out.

Enjoy the 500e! I'm jealous I can't get one for my DD here in Michigan.

danny_1
07-18-2013, 05:51 PM
Thanks for breaking it down! I had a hunch you had already calculated it out.

Enjoy the 500e! I'm jealous I can't get one for my DD here in Michigan.

"DD" ??

I feel like I don't know internet abbreviations....Does that mean Designated Driver?

Either way, it is a bummer that it isn't available anywhere else and I do feel sort of lucky to get it. I am just doing everything I can right now to get back the tax increases California and the federal gov't are giving me.

I hope you're not in Detroit...they just are finally filing for bankruptcy tomorrow (which, by the way, will net me another $6,000 since I made some bets on that occurring before the end of August). Wow...I just realized that Obama has unexpectedly made me a decent amount of money since he took office in the second term...I bet $21,000 on Intrade (anyone remember that site??) when people actually thought that Romney would be elected.

Too bad I don't live in a county with addt'l rebates like San Joaquin. I could have had another $3000 in rebates.

Now, the only thing that would be awesome for me would be gas at $5 or more per gallon.

All joking aside: I am guessing that the Fiat will be available in about a year in other states (and hopefully sooner). But Michigan may take a while to get it. I wonder if someone in another state would consider buying it even with no dealer to service it??

Andree
07-18-2013, 06:36 PM
DD = Daily Driver (or Dear Daughter if you're chatting about family)

If you have a chance, read the book "America: Who Really Pays the Taxes" by Donald L. Barlett. Even if it's an old version, it's still represents how we got to where we are and why taxes are being paid by people rather than corporations. The whole story including that blissful 50's period where single earner families bought houses, easily. Taxes to the individual were so much less. Loopholes, tax dodges, offshore holding companies later, those big corps no longer are paying their fair share, sometimes getting away with not paying anything at all.

It's been in the news recently, with Apple:
http://www.policymic.com/articles/46429/apple-tax-evasion-now-is-the-time-to-defeat-international-tax-evasion

Mentioned in the above article are a couple of other noteworthy examples, Google and Amazon.

If the burden of taxation is shared proportionately, it makes it much MUCH better for the poorer majority of people.

This is also an older example, from around the mid-nineties too, but it tells a quick story on income as shown by size, the Income Parade:
http://faculty.cua.edu/sullins/SOC324/SOCNOTE1.htm

I'd be the cigarette butt hidden in the blades of grass way at the beginning.

Andree
07-18-2013, 06:56 PM
I had to leave very early this morning so I haven't had much time to spend with the car yet. I have only driven it home. I will try to post some pics this evening if I am not too tired...but it is just the orange model without a sunroof. And I saw that another member uploaded his already.

Yes, I am still planing to get the second Fiat 500e. That one will be white (blanca perla...or something like that, I believe) and will have black interior and the e-sport package. The dealer told me it should be here within a week or two. I hope that color combo looks ok...it was sort of a gamble picking that color combo.

There may be a white with black (non-esport) sitting at Ontario if you want a preview in person:
http://www.fiatusaofontario.com/new/FIAT/2013-FIAT-5446f73f0a0a00e001db4b88cd8a88be.htm

I still want to see white with white. I'm seeing the white ones coming in with black.

danny_1
07-18-2013, 07:06 PM
DD = Daily Driver (or Dear Daughter if you're chatting about family)

If you have a chance, read the book "America: Who Really Pays the Taxes" by Donald L. Barlett. Even if it's an old version, it's still represents how we got to where we are and why taxes are being paid by people rather than corporations. The whole story including that blissful 50's period where single earner families bought houses, easily. Taxes to the individual were so much less. Loopholes, tax dodges, offshore holding companies later, those big corps no longer are paying their fair share, sometimes getting away with not paying anything at all.

It's been in the news recently, with Apple:
http://www.policymic.com/articles/46429/apple-tax-evasion-now-is-the-time-to-defeat-international-tax-evasion

Mentioned in the above article are a couple of other noteworthy examples, Google and Amazon.

If the burden of taxation is shared proportionately, it makes it much MUCH better for the poorer majority of people.

This is also an older example, from around the mid-nineties too, but it tells a quick story on income as shown by size, the Income Parade:
http://faculty.cua.edu/sullins/SOC324/SOCNOTE1.htm

I'd be the cigarette butt hidden in the blades of grass way at the beginning.

I am not trying to be a jerk but, honestly...I am sort of one of those "corporations" which pays no taxes. I moved my business overseas and also do everything I can to avoid taxes. I already know that many large and medium-sized companies are doing this. I feel that I am at the forefront of how it is done. I also know that most people will probably hate/really dislike me for doing that. But that is how this country has become. We have so many tax laws and the work-arounds are built in...but they are built in so that you have to be very thorough to understand how to side-step it.

I hate that it is like that but I am just the type of person who is fascinated with efficiency (hence why I am a mathematician). I cannot help but find the cheapest/most efficient way to accomplish something. If I ran my business here in the US I would be middle class and would only hire a few people. If I run it the way I do then I can make a lot more personally and I can hire a lot more people (foreigners...but people). And, most importantly, I can accomplish what I want which is the elimination of cancer as a disease. If I were in the US then I would be so constrained in everything I do that I would just not be doing it.

I lost my job as a mathematician many years ago because it was cheaper to hire a Phd in India than me. So, instead of getting mad and being a baby about it, I decided to compete. My two options for competition were:

1) become magically smarter and force companies to hire me cuz I am the smartest in the world or....
2) compete with those companies by moving to India then China to take the business from them

I split the difference: I tried to get smarter by another Phd in Quantum Chemistry while also moving overseas and setting up shop.

The world is different now. It is flat and we are no longer bound to local regions.

I agree with what you say but I also think that the world is much more competitive now and if people don't want to be screwed over by their gov't then they will have to use their brains to get ahead.

I like your posts. They are always spot-on and you seem very informed.

Thanks,

Danny

Andree
07-18-2013, 08:41 PM
Again, it's kind of stupid NOT to do what you CAN do in order to make the most for yourself. As long as it isn't illegal.

You also have a chance at helping others, by hiring them. Whether it's here or there, it's still people who need income to get by.

Have you followed the penny a pound for tomatoes story? Started quite some time ago, basic rundown here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/04/opinion/04sat3.html?_r=0

It's such a small amount to me, but when added up it makes a huge difference in yearly income. I'd sent off an email to one of the places that had yet to agree stating I could easily afford to pay a penny or nickel more per FOOD ITEM for tomatoes. One or two slices of tomato isn't a pound. So I could more than afford to cover an increase at my end so that others have a better income, better life.

Actually, they'd get more than I do from disability with the increase of a penny per pound. And that's okay.

At the poor end of the spectrum, we still all need basics. There need to be food options that are affordable and good. There needs to be housing. Transportation. Etc. Housing and transportation is out of reach.

It was set up in such a way in the 70's that two people could rent an apartment making minimum wage. A two-bedroom apartment. Not anymore. This is a link to the National Low Income Housing Coalition: http://nlihc.org/oor

They'll tell you how many hours you'd have to work at minimum wage to afford to live in an area. I'd written them, years back, asking for help. Asked them if there was a place in the US I could live better, just live, with my disability income. Their response was "nowhere". There is no place in the US that I can pay 30% of my income on housing. It's all much more expensive.

Now, here's the connection between you and the world. It does make sense to shop around, and to take advantage of deals. Yes, like the 500e rebates and having a company overseas. Many folks do this when they can, I do. I shop for good deals, use coupons, buy more when it's a better price.

What happens when people can't afford things or to even LIVE as a human being? See, with a worldwide playing field, it also distributes the abject poverty of some regions back to where it was once rare. Perfect example, the homelessness in the US. If we can zip back to the 70s or even 80s, housing was much more affordable, wages more proportionate with housing. I remember three bedroom homes renting for under 400. Yeah. In an area where you didn't need bars on the windows.

Crime does increase with income stratification. People get to be desperate minded. There's a lot of resentment and hatred bubbling under the surface. I can understand people protesting the Zimmerman verdict, what I don't get is the throwing trash cans through retailer's windows. That's part of the hatred and resentment. The division between haves and have-nots.

In addition, places that can grow in HUGE leaps and bounds haven't the experience in managing possible and predictable outcomes. Like China's coal burning plants, free coal for heating, heavily polluting vehicles and industry. This is a country that is essentially booming while killing off it's own citizens. And every other country that seeks insta-riches may find itself in the same scenario.

As the pollution from China hits the west coast, that also has to be taken into consideration. It IS a worldwide playing field, and what happens elsewhere can have these additional effects. Pollution doesn't stop at borders.

I have two things for ya, one is an astute observation made by a student during a Harvard lecture on morality contained in a YouTube video. When you become a part of civilization, you tacitly agree to forgo absolute individual interests at the expense of others.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBdfcR-8hEY

The other is a quick, funny animation about greed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o31rcOUPviw

danny_1
07-18-2013, 11:08 PM
See what I mean? Nice, well informed opinions.

I agree that you are basically right.

This isn't really the forum for stuff like this but basically I feel that everyone should work hard and be somewhat responsible. Taking care of others who cannot do it for themselves is human nature, in my opinion. Helping people who do not need it is a waste of your money and the worst thing you can do for someone who is too lazy to do it for themselves.

I grew up with nothing and I always knew I would have to work my ass off to get anywhere. So that is what I did. When you mention the prices for things 30 or 40 years ago it basically explains why this country is in such financial trouble today...pricing. Those prices existed at that time because we were essentially borrowing for those people to pay for it. We sold the loans to all sorts of countries, etc...and now the bills are finally due and we cannot borrow anymore to pay for them. Hence, public defaults (like Detroit, which will happen tomorrow). And like a bunch of cities and counties which will finally have to file for bankruptcy because we have been borrowing like crazy since the 70's.

Taking care of people who really need it: that's a no-brainer. Making a handful of people rich and screwing everyone else: that is what we have been doing for a long time and now it is finally almost over. Allowing lazy and poor people to be tricked into voting for politicians they feel will keep giving them free stuff is basically the downfall of democracy. When extremely poor people outnumber the hard-working then they will vote themselves everything and force those who contribute to finally give up and ruin everything. The fact that most Americans know nothing about our economic policies used to be nice for those who wanted to get ahead easily. Now it is a problem because there are so many of those people and they can still vote (if they get off their lazy asses and do it). No growth means that the ponzi-scheme of western economics is exposed...kinda like when Bernie Madoff was exposed...He tricked everyone that they were rich...until the growth slowed so much that he was unable to maintain that falsehood. It is happening here now.

danny_1
07-18-2013, 11:39 PM
Here is a perfect example of what is wrong here. I am working in the field of cancer research. My company is working on a test that sequences all the genes inside you that are related to cancer. Humans have about 500 genes that are related to cancer. My company can sequence all of those genes for you right now and it costs us about $500.

Many of these genes are patented so I cannot tell you if you have that cancer gene of not. I can sequence it but some academic researcher found the gene several years ago and some company paid the university a few thousand to patent it. Now, if you wanna know if you have the gene (like the BRCA gene for breast cancer) then you have to pay that company $4000. Wow...that is so much that most people cannot do it unless they are lucky enough to have their insurance cover it. I can sequence that gene for about $0.50

So...tons of women have this gene and eventually get breast cancer. We should be testing every woman for this gene and charging them almost nothing...but we don't because our gov't is so stupid (cuz they were elected by idiots). They would rather award a patent for a gene that already exists inside 1% of the population. If we provided this test for every woman and the gov't paid for it then we would save a HUGE amount on medicare/medicaid because we could easily treat those people early and avoid the million dollar bill we will get when they hit the age of 50 or so.

But we have stupid politicians who do not understand any of that. They only understand what lobbyists tell them to vote on.

Now, here is the best part: any lab could sequence this gene for you and then tell you how to analyze the data yourself to know whether you have the gene or not....hmmm....how many labs do this? Not many because they are constantly threatened by the company that owns the patent...and because they are not a lab of lawyers they just stop doing it.

See what I mean? A handful of people in this company become wildly rich and the rest of the uneducated are made to suffer. For no reason whatsoever...just sheer stupidity. And the taxpayers will suffer because they will pay for those people who have to go through cancer therapy for the rest of their lives because they found out that they had it way too late (after the tumor formed).

This could have been avoided if our gov't realized what they were doing when they awarded a patent for a gene (which, by the way they finally realized was wrong and fixed last month).

Or how about when our gov't borrows money to pay for pensions for public employees but has literally no way to repay it? They just know that they will be out of office by the time it all hits the fan and the next group of politicians will have to find a way to borrow more.

Or how about when our gov't decides to offer a tax rebate (for the Fiat as an example) so that only rich people can get it? And poor people can help pay for it but never get it?

Or when our gov't decides to just print money so that they can screw the other countries that we borrowed from so we can "repay" them?

We should just go back to the original constitution (but get rid of the amendments that are racist or sexist...and get rid of guns too...they are too dangerous now and I have been shot at for no reason...so yeah...get rid of that one). And go back to the 3% flat tax rate. Get rid of the army. Get rid of lobbying. Make people have to work if they wanna get ahead and stop helping them if they're just being lazy.

Basically: make it so that people who are hard-working and smart are not able to find ways to work the system so that they get stuff that others don't. Like me as a perfect example...I am completely milking the system and taking advantage of every possible loophole because if I don't then someone else will and I will suffer from it. It is not fair what I do..I know this. But I need to get ahead and I am a hard worker. If I don't do this then I am just an unemployed mathematician instead of a business owner and someone trying to solve a real health problem in the world. Thanks America...for making it so that I couldn't do any of that "legally."

Andree
07-19-2013, 12:02 AM
Wait, I thought the Supreme Court just said that genes can't be patented:

"On Thursday, June 13th, the Supreme Court unanimously ruled that isolated and naturally occurring human genes cannot be patented. This case was brought to them by the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) who challenged Myriad Genetic, a molecular diagnostic company, over the right to patent BRCA1 and BRCA2 genes, which are used to test for breast and ovarian cancer. The test, though expensive, has been very successful in determining gene mutations that can lead to and cause these types of cancers.

In the majority opinion of the Court, Justice Clarence Thomas wrote: “Myriad found the location of the BRCA1 and BRCA2 genes. But that discovery, by itself, does not render the BRCA genes patent eligible.” The reasoning behind their ruling is that since Myriad only discovered the location of the gene, but did not create it, there is no basis for the company to claim ownership rights to something that already exists naturally. It would be like Polar Spring trying to patent spring water for their bottles— they might have found the springs but they did not make them. With this ruling, other human genes that are being researched, such as those that are linked to Alzheimer’s or other cancers, will not be allowed to be patented."

http://www.natlawreview.com/article/supreme-court-ruling-human-gene-patenting

And...

BOOM

you just made a bazillion dollars (send some to meeeeeeeeee)

Edit: Good blog here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/07/12/you-cant-patent-human-genes-so-why-are-genetic-testing-companies-getting-sued/

Edit: Oh, this was the "fix" mentioned in your post. Duh.

Andree
07-19-2013, 12:37 AM
There's an element of trust that is continually breached in the pension world. Money isn't handled properly. All the Detroit people are going to lose out:
http://money.cnn.com/2013/07/18/pf/detroit-bankruptcy-pensions/

It's all over the news (I like reading news), everywhere, all the time.

A top official with California’s public employee pension system admitted this week that its holdings in green energy companies have lost hundreds of millions of dollars.
http://freebeacon.com/nobly-losing-money/

Well, maybe it's just the big time pensions? Nope.

Iowa’s pension fund for police officers lost $7.3 million in investment returns last fiscal year, a newly released report from the state auditor’s office shows.
http://watchdog.org/65823/ia-policepensions/

My own parents depended on putting money away with their companies. My dad dies, and something happens to that company, so the payout my mom was supposed to be receiving was reduced. Her own employer, in which she'd invested in over time, it went belly up too, and all the money she had put in, she didn't get back out. She got SOME. Twice damaged by employers who couldn't manage their own money or their employees money.

The same thing has been going on with Social Security, where the money going in is being used for something else and it isn't going to be there for the people who have paid in.

Can people manage their own money? No, not really. I've never made enough to save any money in my life. There are a lot of people just existing all over the world. Not living, just existing.

There's enough food, water, shelter for everyone in the world. There's enough technology to help people live healthier or longer lives. It's not getting done.

But if you look, you'll find pockets of hope. Take this UNICEF newsblurb about the donation of 73 motorbikes:
http://www.unicef.org/media/media_68723.html

And combine with the idea of the ELF bike. Water and sanitation is serious business: http://www.unicef.org/wash/

Well, the motorbikes around going to need gas. The ELF doesn't. The Organic Transit concept vehicle Truckit could be used in many areas to haul large amounts of supplies.

And yes, I realize this is an automotive forum, but I have a mind that doesn't shut down. If there's a site for "people who think about stuff" let me know what it is. I'll take the thinking chat wherever I find it.

danny_1
07-19-2013, 01:01 AM
Yeah, I mentioned the Supreme Court ruling. But just wait...Myriad is going to sue the companies that are telling you if you have that gene. The reason they will sue those labs is because the Supreme Court does not understand organic chemistry. Myriad does understand it..that is why their stock price did not drop to almost zero. The Supreme Court ruled that genes can't be patented...but they also added that labs cannot perform the basic chemistry to determine what the genes are...so...even though average Americans think this is a win for them, it isn't. Wall street knew that...that is why the stock did not plummet to zero. A handful of labs will offer the test and if Myriad starts losing business then they will sue those labs. Why? Hahahahahah...because Myriad was clever in how they manipulated the Supreme Court. It doesn't really matter too much for Myriad because they got 10 years or so of the 11-year patent. And who knows how many people died because of the prices they were charging.

And they didn't find the genes...another researcher did and they basically bought it for almost nothing.

But all of that is beside the point. Things like this will keep happening because Americans are uneducated, stupid, and lazy. We elect politicians who are only good at lying. We give away and borrow too much federal/state money. This current generation of young adults is completely screwed because they will not be able to compete (unless they can make money posting on Twitter or Facebook...or if they can make a lot of money playing video games). We have a military that takes 20% of our total federal budget...Why? Oh yeah, cuz we're at "war."

We spend another 20% on Medicaid/Medicare and there is SO much waste and corruption on those programs that they might as well end them. We need to only take care of those who really need it. 20% on Social Security..Why? Because we have to borrow so much to pay for it. Ummm...we all pay into the system so the money should be there waiting for us when we retire. But wait...What? The government borrowed that money? Huh? Is that even legal? Yes it is because Americans are too lazy and stupid to understand that this is even happening. 5% on interest to national debt. Wow...thanks government for borrowing money to give it away to your buddies so that I can pay for it and have no benefits whatsoever.

Oh...and borrowing a trillion dollars or more each year for the past few years...ummm...that is also a good idea. I am so glad that the guys who support this were voted into office. They were voted in because idiots liked them on TV commercials...also those idiots do not know how to research anything.

Nothing will ever really change for a while...not until the ponzi scheme has reached Bernie Madoff levels. Reality is a bitch sometimes...Reality will set in when there is no way to pretend that there is a ton of money in the bank. Good thing I have other things that should protect me some when that happens. Gold..? LOL...that is hilarious. It is metal from the ground and can't feed you or clothe you or build a house for you (unless you believe people who tell you gold is king when economies collapse).

The U.S. is totally broke and we have nothing here worth anything to the people we owe the money. The only thing I can imagine any country doing to us is just stealing our companies' patents and taking the factories in their countries (mostly China) from the American companies that own them. That won't pay back much but at least they can put a stop to the U.S. profiting just because they can kick your ass if you "steal" our patents.

Either way...I want my tax rebate for my Fiat before the gov't officially runs out of money.