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View Full Version : Neu-F Rear Bar really stiff!



Racerflash
06-23-2013, 11:57 AM
At the AutoX last weekend we finally got to feel the new Neu-F bar at speed. Made a big difference in turn-in and rear rotation to cut down on the understeer. But, the tighter rear axel also made for some great inside rear wheel lift! This pic only shows a little, but my son got the wheel about 6" off the ground on a run!
http://i1327.photobucket.com/albums/u670/racerflash/65b9746c6768bd14f95637d7ad844da0_zps71305b48.jpg

http://i1327.photobucket.com/albums/u670/racerflash/c5c72816541511a95d782aad8cbc80f5_zpsefad247b.jpg

http://i1327.photobucket.com/albums/u670/racerflash/3263acd34ed4273fdf3a709e309a5be3_zps04e08d9d.jpg

shagghie
06-23-2013, 12:23 PM
nice! are you running the 215/40/17 ZII's then?

Did you run with traction control partial off?

Racerflash
06-23-2013, 12:26 PM
nice! are you running the 215/40/17 ZII's then?

Did you run with traction control partial off?

Yes, the 215/40R17 ZIIs and ESC in full off mode.

shagghie
06-23-2013, 12:50 PM
Yes, the 215/40R17 ZIIs and ESC in full off mode.

ill be rolling the same way on the 29th with oz allegritas, 4lbs lighter/corner.
How do u like the z2's ? , any tips on warm-up and/or tire pressures?

Racerflash
06-23-2013, 01:13 PM
ill be rolling the same way on the 29th with oz allegritas, 4lbs lighter/corner.
How do u like the z2's ? , any tips on warm-up and/or tire pressures?

If you haven't already, you need about 500 mi on the tires before the event for break in. They are much better then the stock Neros on turn in and stick. We are still experimenting with pressures to cut down on the understeer. Stock or a little lower pressure on the fronts and we liked about 40-42 psi in the rears.

Racerflash
06-23-2013, 01:17 PM
In case you didn't see this I previously posted:
https://www.vidgive.com/index.php?option=com_contushdvideoshare&view=player&catid=19&id=3195&device=desktop

shagghie
06-23-2013, 05:55 PM
In case you didn't see this I previously posted:
https://www.vidgive.com/index.php?option=com_contushdvideoshare&view=player&catid=19&id=3195&device=desktop

wow those tires are really talkin'!!

The Nero's didnt make near that much noise IIRC!

Small&Wicked2013
06-23-2013, 06:22 PM
Yeah those tires are screaming! I will be doing my 1st autoX since installing the BCs and Neu-F bar. I don't know what to expect.

Racerflash
06-23-2013, 07:08 PM
wow those tires are really talkin'!!

The Nero's didnt make near that much noise IIRC!

My Nero's sure did! If you had no noise, you weren't overdriving like my son and I were!! ThrashinSmiley

shagghie
06-23-2013, 07:30 PM
Yeah those tires are screaming! I will be doing my 1st autoX since installing the BCs and Neu-F bar. I don't know what to expect.

expect great things... the bar alone is amazing.
coilovers also helped with breaking/turn-in, too.

i normally run w esc full off but am thinking of trying partial off this time.

Racerflash
06-23-2013, 07:43 PM
expect great things... the bar alone is amazing.
coilovers also helped with breaking/turn-in, too.

i normally run w esc full off but am thinking of trying partial off this time.

I haven't tried anything but ESC full off in AutoX, BUT with ESC on I was driving "spirited" on the street and tried to maneuver through a fast "S" double curve. Right in the middle of the curve when I tried to flick the wheel back for the 2nd turn, it felt like a ghost took the wheel and tried to turn for me at a lesser angle! It was weird and I didn't want to feel that during an AutoX run! But who knows, it could help on certain turns??

Robert Nixon
06-23-2013, 09:12 PM
Thanks for all the autoX info! I've only run once, and plan to continue with G Stock SCCA this summer.

Not looking for any other comments, but just want to mention that for next weekends event in NC the Central Carolina Region has ruled that Abarths can't run, their Solo co-ordinater says that their layout will be very high speed. Just passing the info along, because obviously the Abarth is cleared for GS and other classes by the SCCA, but apparently the local regions can impose other restrictions, though they didn't explain any more than that to me and the other Abarth owner from this forum that had entered.

shagghie
06-23-2013, 10:08 PM
Thanks for all the autoX info! I've only run once, and plan to continue with G Stock SCCA this summer.

Not looking for any other comments, but just want to mention that for next weekends event in NC the Central Carolina Region has ruled that Abarths can't run, their Solo co-ordinater says that their layout will be very high speed. Just passing the info along, because obviously the Abarth is cleared for GS and other classes by the SCCA, but apparently the local regions can impose other restrictions, though they didn't explain any more than that to me and the other Abarth owner from this forum that had entered.

That's retarded. somone should send them a video of the AC cars flying around the track at 120 mph on slicks... I could see limiting some cars with taller profiles on some courses if the car is running racing slicks, but not on street tires.

Small&Wicked2013
06-23-2013, 10:15 PM
That really stinks..did they give a reason why? Worried about roll over?

jguerdat
06-24-2013, 09:30 AM
i normally run w esc full off but am thinking of trying partial off this time.

Make sure you do back-to-back tests, especially towards the end of the day when times have settled down. I've tried it both ways at 2 events. The first one was partial ESSC during the morning sessions and then full off PM and I knocked a second off my morning times. The second time, I tried one run (second to last) and it was actually my fastest time but lost in the driver variability noise (something like .1 second faster). It's another tool to try but I don't generally want the brakes kicking in other than when I press on the peddle and I don't want the torque reduction from the ECU in 1st and 2nd...

Oh, yeah, next event is this weekend. I'm going to try lower pressures in the front to see what happens.

abarth&911
06-24-2013, 11:13 AM
Here is part of what was send to me.

The Fiat Abarth is way too unstable of a vehicle to compete at our events. I can not allow your Fiat to run and potentially ruin our good standing with zMax.

I have attached a JPG of a Fiat Abarth doing a stoppie, to show you the potential instability of your car. Any car that can do this, will not run at a CCR autocross event.

I must say I'm not happy also, I have done 4 AX with my car and on one of them with PCA I had to go well into third gear a few time on the course. We had a really long and fast course.

shagghie
06-24-2013, 11:23 AM
What was the photo, can you post it on Photobucket for us?

If it was this photo, let them know this was a piss-take and just a result of playing with break balance. That has nothing to do with 'stability' whatsover. If they let a 1992 Ford Station Wagon auto-x here locally at the Nationals, then surely the Abarth is 'more stable' than that thing on its best day! Break bias and high speed nose bombs are nothing to do with stability, and on the surface, it appears someone has a thing against the Abarth (perhaps a disenchanted Mini driver?).

Is this the photo?
http://www.daidegasforum.com/images/578/fiat-500-abarth-akrapovic-salto.jpeg


Here is part of what was send to me.

The Fiat Abarth is way too unstable of a vehicle to compete at our events. I can not allow your Fiat to run and potentially ruin our good standing with zMax.

I have attached a JPG of a Fiat Abarth doing a stoppie, to show you the potential instability of your car. Any car that can do this, will not run at a CCR autocross event.

I must say I'm not happy also, I have done 4 AX with my car and on one of them with PCA I had to go well into third gear a few time on the course. We had a really long and fast course.

shagghie
06-24-2013, 11:28 AM
Make sure you do back-to-back tests, especially towards the end of the day when times have settled down. I've tried it both ways at 2 events. The first one was partial ESSC during the morning sessions and then full off PM and I knocked a second off my morning times. The second time, I tried one run (second to last) and it was actually my fastest time but lost in the driver variability noise (something like .1 second faster). It's another tool to try but I don't generally want the brakes kicking in other than when I press on the peddle and I don't want the torque reduction from the ECU in 1st and 2nd...

Oh, yeah, next event is this weekend. I'm going to try lower pressures in the front to see what happens.

That was my exact same experience on my first time out with the Abarth in February... running in Stock GS trim at the time. I was TWO seconds faster with ESC full off compared to partial off. And the one time I ran with it ON (an oversight on my part), I could barely drive the car and was fighting the whole way around before realizing what was going on half way through.

Now, however, the car has been lowered, with Neu-F bar, lighter wheels, wider/grippier tires, etc.. I should probably at least give it another try, as in theory, partial-off was 'designed' for track application. But I wonder if auto-X is just too tight/dynamic compared to a big track, where Partial Off most surely *should* be an advantage...

I'd like to know who this guy is describing the Abarth as 'way too unstable'. It's about the most composed car on the track I've seen, and if they are letting 240SX's drift around the cones on the edge of mechanical grip and sanity, then this is a pretty baseless argument, and wreaks of ulterior motive.

shagghie
06-24-2013, 11:59 AM
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ7JhA6YleoQmUrYM54aXkBrSjFtbCZh iprJ5_ql_6m6876XInR

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR-HjePzD9jbvsV_ioTWpqw1jvJlpJaSHu-evE2ZYyAoLF0R1CPdQ

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS6eAfeb5dWMmkyxNpMaJJPdYzuuHhcH rdBglU2R4bInJTGIB5W5Q

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT20VAg-1T-7FilSAoTmUWUFpkusrujWg-cpqfkIUVON1yowX8cUjBB4w

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT6_QUNH0n-0irqrBVmlZ7hjIskXTE19JbXyDRzIZe5Sbo5V1psJg

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/fVTAnIqnmjk/0.jpg

Would they also consider this car to be 'too unstable' even as it wins the competition? (massive stoppie at the end)

http://www.gofastvideo.com/video/501/Mini-Cooper--Auto-XDrift-Madness

The person responding to your email probably just plays too much Forza:

http://www.forzamotorsport.fr/photos/x5/forza-motorsport-3-abarth-500-esseesse-par-audi-rs5-327380.jpg

abarth&911
06-24-2013, 12:10 PM
What was the photo, can you post it on Photobucket for us?

If it was this photo, let them know this was a piss-take and just a result of playing with break balance. That has nothing to do with 'stability' whatsover. If they let a 1992 Ford Station Wagon auto-x here locally at the Nationals, then surely the Abarth is 'more stable' than that thing on its best day! Break bias and high speed nose bombs are nothing to do with stability, and on the surface, it appears someone has a thing against the Abarth (perhaps a disenchanted Mini driver?).

Is this the photo?
http://www.daidegasforum.com/images/578/fiat-500-abarth-akrapovic-salto.jpeg


Yes it was.
You should see the comment I got form our local club AX forum when I posted it with his name.
He seem to be pretty well know......

Racerflash
06-24-2013, 12:24 PM
You should send an email to someone at SCCA Nationals letting them know that no problems have occurred in your region with the Abarth and they are basing their decision on erroneous online photos!!

shagghie
06-24-2013, 12:24 PM
Is he well known in a good way or infamous way? I mean the ONLY Thing that picture shows is a LOT of breaking power on the front breaks, combined with minimal suspension travel.
A stock Abarth will NOT do that no matter what you try to do to upset the suspension just prior to slamming the breaks, period. Back in the day there was a Brembo commercial in Italy that showed a Punto doing a stoppie just like this...with the tag line "So, do you think we have enough stopping power for your needs?" (rough translation).

As far as stability... the fact that the driver can keep the car in a straight line under control with two wheels off the ground only attests TO its stability, not the other way around.

I don't think I could start off my Monday much more upset and offended than I have today.... Can you point me to that forum post you are referring to?

redred
06-24-2013, 12:36 PM
Yes it was.
You should see the comment I got form our local club AX forum when I posted it with his name.
He seem to be pretty well know......

You're kidding me right?????? That picture of the Akrapovic Abarth is the one that is causing all this mess? I remember posting a pic of that months ago. (Not sure I was the first one or not, but I did post that pic in a lot of places)

That is ridiculous. There is no way a stock Abarth could even come close to doing anything like that. My Abarth has upgraded and very strong brakes, but could never even come close to doing a maneuver like that one.

shagghie
06-24-2013, 12:45 PM
You're kidding me right?????? That picture of the Akrapovic Abarth is the one that is causing all this mess? I remember posting a pic of that months ago. (Not sure I was the first one or not, but I did post that pic in a lot of places)

That is ridiculous. There is no way a stock Abarth could even come close to doing anything like that. My Abarth has upgraded and very strong brakes, but could never even come close to doing a maneuver like that one.

Bingo, neither could mine, lowered on coilovers and with grippy rubber.... not even close. Again, how does this guy get off describing a race-bred car like the Abarth as 'unstable'. I think that adjective would be better used to describe something (someone?) else... but resisting the urge to go there given how upset this makes me.

Abarth67
06-24-2013, 12:49 PM
Show him this and see if he still says unstable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=WM0XViFp1M0

What a bunch of bunk. Obviously on a power play. Sounds like the 60s all over again when Al Cosentino was banned from SCCA because his Abarth was too fast. History repeating itself.

http://www.nogripracing.com/files/screens/2009/01/thumbs/43004.jpg

shagghie
06-24-2013, 12:51 PM
yeah and those are stock abarths....


Show him this and see if he still says unstable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=WM0XViFp1M0

What a bunch of bunk. Obviously on a power play. Sounds like the 60s all over again when Al Cosentino was banned from SCCA because his Abarth was too fast. History repeating itself.

http://www.nogripracing.com/files/screens/2009/01/thumbs/43004.jpg


RIP... video of "King Al" driving a VERY fast Lancia...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/seat850/2745235981/

Abarth67
06-24-2013, 01:32 PM
I had the opportunity to drive that same car courtesy of Al himself. Amazing car to say the least.

shagghie
06-24-2013, 01:35 PM
I had the opportunity to drive that same car courtesy of Al himself. Amazing car to say the least.
That's just amazing. It sounds about the same as my Pop's full house '72 124 Sport Coupe, about 170hp to the wheels now still naturally aspirated.

Abarth67
06-24-2013, 01:53 PM
The car AL had was supercharged and put out about 260 +/- and was very quick.

shagghie
06-24-2013, 01:57 PM
The car AL had was supercharged and put out about 260 +/- and was very quick.

That's where we'll be after the crate from Australia arrives..... #turbos.... Can't wait!

abarth&911
06-24-2013, 03:01 PM
We are kind of off topic we should move the discussion to this tread.
http://www.fiat500usaforum.com/showthread.php?10465-SCCA-Solo-June-29th-ZMax-Dragway-Charlotte-NC&p=615122#post615122

Here some answer:

Is he well known in a good way or infamous way?
I don't think it was in a good way….

I don't think I could start off my Monday much more upset and offended than I have today....
I was at that point last Friday, now I'm finding this almost funny and reading you guy's make me feel better.

Can you point me to that forum post you are referring to?
The forum is a private forum, you need to be club member to read and post, sorry.

Look like it will have to be his way, trying to push the issue will just escalate and we might not be able to run at all.

shagghie
06-24-2013, 03:27 PM
Totally understand... only thing that comes to mind is if I got my local San Diego SCCA folks involved, and if JacknSue maybe were willing to represent from LV NV region, maybe an 'intelligent' "help me understand" kind of conversation could arise and conclude with a common sense way forward?

abarth&911
06-24-2013, 03:33 PM
About the ESC I always had it fully off for Autocross. I had my son try it partial off the first time he autocross the Abarth and I don't think it help him. His time stay consistent, not much improvement from run to run.
The second time I had him try full off and he did much better and improve from run to run. His slowest run was the first and his fastest the last one and it was 6sec. faster than the first one.

Last year at PCA AX school one guy ask me if wanted to try his Cayman R, hard to say no.
So I jump in the car and try it on the part of the course I was instructing On and the car felt strange, like if the tire where skipping, so I told the guy the car felt strange and he said maybe its because ESC is On.
So we turn it off and try again and this time the car felt normal or more like I was expecting. So what appear to me as tire skipping was the system applying the brake.

abarth&911
06-24-2013, 03:48 PM
Totally understand... only thing that comes to mind is if I got my local San Diego SCCA folks involved, and if JacknSue maybe were willing to represent from LV NV region, maybe an 'intelligent' "help me understand" kind of conversation could arise and conclude with a common sense way forward?

I don't know the guy that much but from what I can gather I think this will just escalate the case.
The other guy ask his local SCCA guy if he can help and he came back saying that he will back the ruling.

jguerdat
06-24-2013, 08:13 PM
I sent an email to a CCR member who should be able to get some answers. Let's see what he comes back with.

jguerdat
06-24-2013, 10:33 PM
Quote from my contact:

This just in...

I can say ccr, aka **** n I, will not let them participate in our events, autox. They are far too much a risk, especially at zmax. This has been proven by ***** last year at darlington and a video of ***** at cota in world challenge trim.

"*****" is 2011(?) HS National Champ. I've never run at Darlington so I can only assume there was a near incident. But rest assured, ***** can drive! It's surprising he only has one title.

***** is new to the area from Australia. He runs an Abarth in World Challenge.

And more... It seems there is someone from SCR that is doing most of the bitching, but their Solo Chair supports CCR decision.

End quote. I was asked to remove names. It wouldn't be hard to figure out some of them but it's more the local region contacts that were the issue. Don't know that there's anything to be done other than to somehow supply supporting data that contradicts the decision.