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View Full Version : VIDEO: Abarth w/ MM ECU, MPx TB, BOV, WGA, ATM HCI, 215/40/17 Z2's and OZ Al



shagghie
06-21-2013, 05:25 PM
Part 1 and 2, doing my 'mini' loop, this time heat cycling the new Z2's and testing the MM ECM out at max. Pretty stunning performance improvement.. from the vid description on YT: Heat cycling the new 215/40/17 (compared to 195/40/17 stock) Direzza Z2's. Rear Seat Delete, Ambient Thermal Management Holy Cowl Intake, Modern Performance ported Throttle Body, Forge BOV and Waste Gate Actuator, Check Valve boost leak mod, and Magnetti Marelli ECM set to max. Apologize for the sporadic breaking... was trying to heat cycle the new tires a bit before the Auto-X at the end of the month. ~55lbs sprung weight reduction and ~20lbs rotational unsprung weight reduction.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55TGGlGIkFI&feature=youtu.be

continuing...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97tVeMT-dVI&feature=youtu.be

and before you mention it, yes the whistling is like 5x louder with the MM ECU on combined with the ATM HCI, MPX TB. That said, it's STILL not THAT loud in real life..the iphone camera mic must LOVE that frequency!

DS Ocampo
06-21-2013, 05:37 PM
Mine did the same thing .... Let everyone know how these parts go when the company puts out a release date on them.. Car should be very quick tho and loud.... When you ever gonna fix your windshield ?? Lol ;)

Good stuff tho brother

Jjm4life
06-21-2013, 06:05 PM
Looks like my mod list haha.

shagghie
06-21-2013, 06:25 PM
Mine did the same thing .... Let everyone know how these parts go when the company puts out a release date on them.. Car should be very quick tho and loud.... When you ever gonna fix your windshield ?? Lol ;)

Good stuff tho brother

wait...which parts? All of these parts are out already that are in the vid. I'm not following, sorry. :-) Windshield was just replaced with a crappy "OEM Equivalent" piece...

NORCAL SS
06-21-2013, 06:40 PM
isnt stock 205 40 17???

Abarth Five O
06-21-2013, 06:51 PM
Sorry Shagghie but that whistling sound is really annoying to me. What tune does your MM box have? Original, 1st, or 2nd? I have the 2nd. That's great you're not getting any CELs or limp modes at WOT with all your mods. You might want to also try the MM PP box for the quicker throttle response. I enjoy having mine. Thanks for sharing!

shagghie
06-21-2013, 06:53 PM
isnt stock 205 40 17???

yes, sorry, got corn-fused with the 16" wheel option which is 195/40/16. Doh! Good catch, need to fix that on YT, thanks!

DS Ocampo
06-21-2013, 06:59 PM
The new DP that won't hit the market but maybe soon..

NORCAL SS
06-21-2013, 06:59 PM
its 195 45 16 :)

shagghie
06-21-2013, 07:01 PM
Sorry Shagghie but that whistling sound is really annoying to me. What tune does your MM box have? Original, 1st, or 2nd? I have the 2nd. That's great you're not getting any CELs or limp modes at WOT with all your mods. You might want to also try the MM PP box for the quicker throttle response. I enjoy having mine. Thanks for sharing!

Totally...but honestly...that whistle is NOT that loud in real life! I bought the MM box 2nd hand and haven't found w windows box to be able to hook up the USB to set the %'s. All I know is it is set to 'max' and is 4 months old, so I'm guessing 77%? I can't believe i don't get limp modes the way the power is so explosive...it's like the engine literally erupts at 2800rpm. I'm ont the fence about the PP though. I had the Sprint Booster earlier, and while it helps, I'm not sure I liked the drivability and the way it affected the boost response. Is the PP any different than the sprint booster? I also always had mine on 'race' (Basically a perfectly linear throttle pos curve). Maybe the PP on a lower setting would be better?

DS Ocampo
06-21-2013, 07:02 PM
Also fuel rail and ball bearing turbo ...

DS Ocampo
06-21-2013, 07:04 PM
Just save a few hundred shag.. ;)

NORCAL SS
06-21-2013, 07:04 PM
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m72rf25ibI1qgqvjmo1_400.jpg

Guest
06-21-2013, 07:23 PM
Shaggie, i got one of the first 13 MM ECMs a year ago and ive never had any CELs. Question is should I upload the new flash for it? Its a no remote model so 77% always on. Ive not had the PCM reflash and as its all running great I didnt want to ruin it!!! But should I anyway?

shagghie
06-21-2013, 07:32 PM
Just save a few hundred shag.. ;)

yeah, I honestly don't want the car to be any faster now, lol. Now i just want to focus on thermal management...fmic, egress heat....stuff to help the engine live longer...

shagghie
06-21-2013, 07:36 PM
Shaggie, i got one of the first 13 MM ECMs a year ago and ive never had any CELs. Question is should I upload the new flash for it? Its a no remote model so 77% always on. Ive not had the PCM reflash and as its all running great I didnt want to ruin it!!! But should I anyway?

You know, good question. I'm going to find someone that still uses windows and back mine down to 60% and go up 10% from there. If I get to a % that starts to not feel right or makes me slower, I'll back off by 5% until I reach the happy place. Thing is, to really do it right and know, it requires driving below 4k rpms for 50-70 miles or so, to see how the oem ecu performs and reacts. So it will be a process. I have a hunch mine is set a little too high right now and I might get a smooth boost curve with it lower. But I'm really not the right guy to ask, as I've only had it on for a week now, and I plan to ditch it the second ATM has a proper ECU tune out. I always like to thing 'don't fix it if it's not broken'...but if I stuck with that theory, I'd still be driving a bone stock Abarth! :-)

Abarth Five O
06-21-2013, 07:55 PM
Totally...but honestly...that whistle is NOT that loud in real life! I bought the MM box 2nd hand and haven't found w windows box to be able to hook up the USB to set the %'s. All I know is it is set to 'max' and is 4 months old, so I'm guessing 77%? I can't believe i don't get limp modes the way the power is so explosive...it's like the engine literally erupts at 2800rpm. I'm ont the fence about the PP though. I had the Sprint Booster earlier, and while it helps, I'm not sure I liked the drivability and the way it affected the boost response. Is the PP any different than the sprint booster? I also always had mine on 'race' (Basically a perfectly linear throttle pos curve). Maybe the PP on a lower setting would be better?

You probably have the original tune at 77% max or the 1st revised tune if the prior owner downloaded it. Perhaps the combination of all of your mods have prevented your engine from going into limp mode? I can't comment on the Sprint Booster as I don't own one, however, as I recall from earlier reviews from Madness the PP had a better response when paired w/ the MM Ecu box. With remote, the PP box is paired/synced w/ the same settings on the MM Ecu box.

SuperTony
06-21-2013, 08:41 PM
yeah, I honestly don't want the car to be any faster now, lol.

Funny how that happens eh shagghie? I hit that wall as well. We push for more speed then all of a sudden we have a 3krpm to 6krpm explosion of power and say "ok, that's enough". I thought that was a funny/interesting realization.

DS Ocampo
06-21-2013, 09:56 PM
I'm with you guys but I just like to work on the car and play with diff mods...

Shag.. Ill let you know how the FMIC forge is when it comes in next week :).. Ill post dyno results.. Still hounding dyno-comp for the part so they can tune my car when they do a brand new RRM tuner will be for sale pretty cheap

shagghie
06-21-2013, 09:57 PM
Funny how that happens eh shagghie? I hit that wall as well. We push for more speed then all of a sudden we have a 3krpm to 6krpm explosion of power and say "ok, that's enough". I thought that was a funny/interesting realization.

Yeah, I mean it's not because the chassis can't handle it, or because I'm not hooking it up...it's just a gut feeling that the engine is working as hard as I'd like it to until I do more thermal management, etc. I lifted the hood after my commute this morning...wow the heat. Before I was able to touch the turbo blanket no problem even after hard runs. But after a 'normal' commute home, I couldn't even touch the blanket for a millisecond...ungodly hot. Sure, I'm pulling in cold air with the HCI, but all that air is adding to the combustion still in the engine. Turbo timer probably next on my list now after the FMIC.

Abarth Five O
06-21-2013, 10:17 PM
You should add AC NACA and extractor hood vents to your list. Will be installing mine in a couple of weeks.

Seafarer61
06-21-2013, 10:48 PM
http://www.prosportstickers.com/product_images/z/felix_the_cat_whistle_decal__75848.jpg

I like the typical turbo spits and growls as much as the next owner but too many whistles and I'm at a seven-year-old's birthday party. :p Shaggie, love what you're doing with the ride but surely you must be used to that whistle by now, which explains why it's no big deal to ya. Mine whistles about twice a week, I kid you not. Anything more than that would annoy the living ***t out of me.

Nonetheless, your Abarth continues to impress. Keep it up!

Tweak
06-21-2013, 10:52 PM
Thanks for sharing your (oddly timed 55 secs each) videos, I agree though on the sound, I have heard it in person and although it isn't THAT loud the noise was instantly a bother for me, even with the forge bits to help quiet it down! Fun to drive and even more with the mods though so it's cool and you seem happy, all that matter. :cool:

shagghie
06-21-2013, 10:56 PM
Thanks for sharing your (oddly timed 55 secs each) videos, I agree though on the sound, I have heard it in person and although it isn't THAT loud the noise was instantly a bother for me, even with the forge bits to help quiet it down! Fun to drive and even more with the mods though so it's cool and you seem happy, all that matter. :cool:

Very happy indeed. The thought of a less restrictive, warm-air intake alternative bothers me much more than the whistle, which only happens at WOT anyway when I don't care what I hear, b/c I'm too busy just trying to keep the car on the road at WOT anyways! :-)

Speaking of keeping the car on the road, anyone else running the MM ECM that has intake, mpx tb, forge BOV/WGA, etc.? What's a good 'setting 2' % that you've found for a starting point for me? And for the Forge BOV/Diverter guys... has anyone gone to the firmer spring paired with more air and MM / TMC ECM? I think even the Forge is leaking boost now with all this power (I think I'm hearing it, and/or feeling it with little micro dips in power during the explosive WOT runs)

shagghie
06-21-2013, 11:23 PM
Here's the MM ECU version I'm running.. finally broke down and installed Parallels just to be able to flash the MM ECM. It already had the latest version on it, but what I can't understand is why the end-user cannot change the %'s for #1 and #2 settings on their own. Why does Madness need to roll the binary when the Italian software obviously supports it but has been disabled. So, the question I have then, is for now, what percentages does this version come pre-loaded with for #1 and #2 settings?

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/shagghie/Screenshot2013-06-21at81254PM.png

zyxelenator
06-22-2013, 12:13 AM
Wtf is making that constant whistle? Glad I don't have it, its annoying.

Abarth Five O
06-22-2013, 01:08 AM
Here's the MM ECU version I'm running.. finally broke down and installed Parallels just to be able to flash the MM ECM. It already had the latest version on it, but what I can't understand is why the end-user cannot change the %'s for #1 and #2 settings on their own. Why does Madness need to roll the binary when the Italian software obviously supports it but has been disabled. So, the question I have then, is for now, what percentages does this version come pre-loaded with for #1 and #2 settings?

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/shagghie/Screenshot2013-06-21at81254PM.png

Shagghie, the latest tune which you can download from the Madness' site is 45% setting 1 and 58% setting 2. Since their tune is proprietary, the end user cannot alter the %s. If you want a custom tune i.e. w/ higher %s, you will need to send your box to Madness, probably for a charge.

shagghie
06-22-2013, 01:49 AM
Wtf is making that constant whistle? Glad I don't have it, its annoying.

lots of air moving through the turbo inlet. Like....lots.

DS Ocampo
06-22-2013, 04:16 AM
Mine whistles like that at WOT also .. Installing all the parts tonight and will see what happens next..
I don't mind it anyways cuz it's very faint while driving and is drowned out by the air from the windows down.. Plus like shagghie said at WOT your focus is keeping the car on the road..

I ran that same setup before I sold it and started over with new parts again.. Best bet is to get vents installed brother.. The heat just won't go away after your setup right now.. Good news is if you stove breaks you can always use the hood after a day of driving

Guest
06-22-2013, 09:09 AM
Shagghie, the latest tune which you can download from the Madness' site is 45% setting 1 and 58% setting 2. Since their tune is proprietary, the end user cannot alter the %s. If you want a custom tune i.e. w/ higher %s, you will need to send your box to Madness, probably for a charge.

So, the original setting was 77% and now its only 58%???? Whats that all about?

I guess I wont reprogram mine after all now!

Abarth Five O
06-22-2013, 01:52 PM
So, the original setting was 77% and now its only 58%???? Whats that all about?

I guess I wont reprogram mine after all now!

That was done to perform better w/ the factory re-flash. I agree, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

zyxelenator
06-22-2013, 03:00 PM
Nevermind, I just adjusted actuator arm a little and took it for a test run. Windows up, no AC. It does whistle too, it doesnt sound that bad like in the video.

Guest
06-22-2013, 03:15 PM
That was done to perform better w/ the factory re-flash. I agree, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

So the conundrum now is .... To reflash PCM or not!!!???

This is what happens when the cars not been altered for a while I guess :(

Gigante
06-22-2013, 04:26 PM
Totally...but honestly...that whistle is NOT that loud in real life! I bought the MM box 2nd hand and haven't found w windows box to be able to hook up the USB to set the %'s. All I know is it is set to 'max' and is 4 months old, so I'm guessing 77%? I can't believe i don't get limp modes the way the power is so explosive...it's like the engine literally erupts at 2800rpm. I'm ont the fence about the PP though. I had the Sprint Booster earlier, and while it helps, I'm not sure I liked the drivability and the way it affected the boost response. Is the PP any different than the sprint booster? I also always had mine on 'race' (Basically a perfectly linear throttle pos curve). Maybe the PP on a lower setting would be better?

Dam Shagghie, from reading your post you sound really excited with the results. I watched your video brother and you certainly need some leg room to get a nice stretch and wind that baby through all of the gears.

I pulled the trigger myself last night and ordered up the RRMS ECM. After speaking with Chris from EC and the guys at RRMS I decided to go this way for now. Once I install it I will get the car Dyno'd and see where we ended up with our similar mods.

I could not resist anymore after watching Super Tony and others having all the fun. I went for a long drive today by myself, no wife or pooch to be concerned with, and had a blast. It's beautiful in VA today and the mountain roads were awesome. Anyway, can't wait for my RRMS ECM (will be on setting #9 for me - I only pump with 93 anyway) and enjoy this little beast some more.

Take care buddy and be safe, I"ll be in contact soon:thumbsup

Tweak
06-22-2013, 09:32 PM
Dam Shagghie, from reading your post you sound really excited with the results. I watched your video brother and you certainly need some leg room to get a nice stretch and wind that baby through all of the gears.

I pulled the trigger myself last night and ordered up the RRMS ECM. After speaking with Chris from EC and the guys at RRMS I decided to go this way for now. Once I install it I will get the car Dyno'd and see where we ended up with our similar mods.

I could not resist anymore after watching Super Tony and others having all the fun. I went for a long drive today by myself, no wife or pooch to be concerned with, and had a blast. It's beautiful in VA today and the mountain roads were awesome. Anyway, can't wait for my RRMS ECM (will be on setting #9 for me - I only pump with 93 anyway) and enjoy this little beast some more.

Take care buddy and be safe, I"ll be in contact soon:thumbsup

Tony took the plunge and now you have as well, he went with the TMC unit though, look forward to you seeing the difference and enjoying the new power, it is SO MUCH more fun!

Daytona 500
06-22-2013, 11:47 PM
Hey, so you gave in and bought a MM piggy Back ? I folded too and bought a TMC box. To answer your question, yes I replaced the BOV spring from green to yellow and the WGA I ramped up the preload some more. Those 2 adjustments really made a difference in the way the ecu box makes power. I had to reorder the WGA spring so I won't have an up date untill next week, but the additional preload I added to the yellow spring really made a difference. It seems the adjustment to the WGA nets the most gains. The BOV appears to be a better design than stock, and it seems to work very good as is. I will get you an update on the new WGA spring once I install it.
Very happy indeed. The thought of a less restrictive, warm-air intake alternative bothers me much more than the whistle, which only happens at WOT anyway when I don't care what I hear, b/c I'm too busy just trying to keep the car on the road at WOT anyways! :-)

Speaking of keeping the car on the road, anyone else running the MM ECM that has intake, mpx tb, forge BOV/WGA, etc.? What's a good 'setting 2' % that you've found for a starting point for me? And for the Forge BOV/Diverter guys... has anyone gone to the firmer spring paired with more air and MM / TMC ECM? I think even the Forge is leaking boost now with all this power (I think I'm hearing it, and/or feeling it with little micro dips in power during the explosive WOT runs)

shagghie
06-23-2013, 12:00 AM
I didn't know the wga had different springs!
I thought it was just preloading for adjustment.
I think i might try try the firmer BOV spring, and adjust my Wga a little firmer.
I have a bit of a bog just below 2800, then a massive MASSIVE surge of boost and power.

So what color spring is in your bov now again?


Hey, so you gave in and bought a MM piggy Back ? I folded too and bought a TMC box. To answer your question, yes I replaced the BOV spring from green to yellow and the WGA I ramped up the preload some more. Those 2 adjustments really made a difference in the way the ecu box makes power. I had to reorder the WGA spring so I won't have an up date untill next week, but the additional preload I added to the yellow spring really made a difference. It seems the adjustment to the WGA nets the most gains. The BOV appears to be a better design than stock, and it seems to work very good as is. I will get you an update on the new WGA spring once I install it.

Tweak
06-23-2013, 12:21 AM
massive MASSIVE boost is how I feel, maybe I need to start considering these waste gate and blow off options to try to help with power delivery (from the sounds of it at least).

Gigante
06-23-2013, 03:12 AM
Tony took the plunge and now you have as well, he went with the TMC unit though, look forward to you seeing the difference and enjoying the new power, it is SO MUCH more fun!

Hey Tweak, I received notice today via PM that my RRMS box shipped today and it will arrive on Wednesday. I will be out of town when it arrives but I will install it on Thirsday for sure. I will let you know how it goes - I can't wait.

Take care buddy and I"lll be in touch.

Gigante
06-23-2013, 03:15 AM
Hey, so you gave in and bought a MM piggy Back ? I folded too and bought a TMC box. To answer your question, yes I replaced the BOV spring from green to yellow and the WGA I ramped up the preload some more. Those 2 adjustments really made a difference in the way the ecu box makes power. I had to reorder the WGA spring so I won't have an up date untill next week, but the additional preload I added to the yellow spring really made a difference. It seems the adjustment to the WGA nets the most gains. The BOV appears to be a better design than stock, and it seems to work very good as is. I will get you an update on the new WGA spring once I install it.

Hello Daytona500, how much preload do you have now on the WGA? 2-3 full turs?

Thank you.

Tweak
06-23-2013, 10:01 AM
Hey Tweak, I received notice today via PM that my RRMS box shipped today and it will arrive on Wednesday. I will be out of town when it arrives but I will install it on Thirsday for sure. I will let you know how it goes - I can't wait.

Take care buddy and I"lll be in touch.

Sweet! I'm sure you'll enjoy the change.


Hello Daytona500, how much preload do you have now on the WGA? 2-3 full turs?

Thank you.

This of course is the other guy that finally caved, glad you both have added this, our fall run should be a lot of fun and now I get a better comparison to the other mods you both have that I haven't done yet but may someday look into. :)

Daytona 500
06-23-2013, 10:20 AM
Forge rates their springs Green, Yellow, Blue, Red. The valves come with yellow that puts the operation "at or slightly above stock" according to Forge. When I ordered my WGA and BOV I ordered the next higher spring for each. The WGA spring was wrong and they shipped out the correct one right away. Forge's customer service is great, never an issue. So I have the yellow ready to go in the WGA. I was at the Englishtown Track Day on Friday and went into N.Y. C Saturday to visit friends so I will install it tonight when I get home. Yes, different springs is how you tuneForge valves and then spacers and adjustments is how you fine tune their valves. Think of it this way, you install a WGA on your car that will perform at or slightly above stock. You gain 1 option at this point, you have the option to tune the valve for higher boost where the factory valve is sealed.
When you add preload you are basically adjusting the timing at which the valves opens. The valve is still going to crack open at the predetermined pressure and will not hold pressure above the rating of the spring.
Up rating the spring now allows you to hold higher pressure, and you would also want to back off your preload and fine tune that from close to "zero", and work your way up.
So when I added the TMC, which produces higher boost, I wanted to start tuning the WGA and BOV for the higher boost. I dont get that spike in pressure that you and Tweak have talked about. Still making adjustments trying to get the most out of the TMC. This is the fun part ? right ? Maybee just for me ? IDK...
Does any of that make sense ? I hope I am not confusing the issue and answering your question.
T

I didn't know the wga had different springs!
I thought it was just preloading for adjustment.
I think i might try try the firmer BOV spring, and adjust my Wga a little firmer.
I have a bit of a bog just below 2800, then a massive MASSIVE surge of boost and power.

So what color spring is in your bov now again?

shagghie
06-23-2013, 11:32 AM
Forge rates their springs Green, Yellow, Blue, Red. The valves come with yellow that puts the operation "at or slightly above stock" according to Forge. When I ordered my WGA and BOV I ordered the next higher spring for each. The WGA spring was wrong and they shipped out the correct one right away. Forge's customer service is great, never an issue. So I have the yellow ready to go in the WGA. I was at the Englishtown Track Day on Friday and went into N.Y. C Saturday to visit friends so I will install it tonight when I get home. Yes, different springs is how you tuneForge valves and then spacers and adjustments is how you fine tune their valves. Think of it this way, you install a WGA on your car that will perform at or slightly above stock. You gain 1 option at this point, you have the option to tune the valve for higher boost where the factory valve is sealed.
When you add preload you are basically adjusting the timing at which the valves opens. The valve is still going to crack open at the predetermined pressure and will not hold pressure above the rating of the spring.
Up rating the spring now allows you to hold higher pressure, and you would also want to back off your preload and fine tune that from close to "zero", and work your way up.
So when I added the TMC, which produces higher boost, I wanted to start tuning the WGA and BOV for the higher boost. I dont get that spike in pressure that you and Tweak have talked about. Still making adjustments trying to get the most out of the TMC. This is the fun part ? right ? Maybee just for me ? IDK...
Does any of that make sense ? I hope I am not confusing the issue and answering your question.
T

fantastic, thx! though, im slightly confused...
is yellow or green higher? You said yellow is for at or slightly above stock boost, but that u also had the yellow spring ready to install into the WGA. Did you mean green?

Is the point to always match colors of springs between the bov & wga?

Adding a spacer to the bov would delay the purge, ya?

Finally, how do you know when your wga is adjusted to tight/firm?
I know when it's too weak, but never can tell what symptons to listen for if it is adjusted too firm.

Thanks so much, your explanation made perfect sense!

ReconTopher
06-23-2013, 11:47 AM
How is your iphone mounted? really good audio, I'm not impressed with my Optrix case.

shagghie
06-23-2013, 12:19 PM
How is your iphone mounted? really good audio, I'm not impressed with my Optrix case.

I use a Ram Mount brand suction mount on the windshield...
same thing they use at 24-hr LeMans, Nurenburg, etc...
the windshields would fall off before it comes off, and it does a great job isolating vibration

shagghie
06-23-2013, 07:55 PM
So I was all set to replace my yellow spring with the green one this afternoon. Low and behold, Forge shipped the BOV with the yellow spring already installed, and an extra BLUE one in the box.
So now I'm leery to go higher from yellow.

Forge states actual spring application rates of:
Green: 0.3-1.03 bar
Yellow: 1:03 to 1:58 Bar
Blue: 1:58 to 2:06 Bar
Red: from 2:06 Bar

but that doesn't equate to, say, the max boost your engine is pushing..
From here (http://www.forgemotorsport.com/content.asp?inc=product&cat=0007&product=FMDVSU110) we see that:

Green - 6-8 PSI
Yellow - 10-12 PSI
Blue - 14-16 PSI
Red - 18-20 PSI
The quoted spring pressure (Psi) relates to the un-assisted clamping force of the spring and should NOT be taken as an equivalent to boost pressure when determining suitability. Once a valve is fitted to a car it is subjected to various pressures that act upon the diaphragm or piston to aid its respective ability to seal or hold boost. An example of this, would be when using a FMCL007P valve on a 1.8T engine as found in the TT 225hp. The boost pressure on a "chipped" car can peak at 26psi. The recommended spring would be the Green or Yellow "

----8<-----8<
Is anyone here running the blue spring with their piggyback set up? Or should I just stick with the Yellow to play it safe...
Going to repost this as a separate thread....

Gigante
06-23-2013, 10:12 PM
Forge rates their springs Green, Yellow, Blue, Red. The valves come with yellow that puts the operation "at or slightly above stock" according to Forge. When I ordered my WGA and BOV I ordered the next higher spring for each. The WGA spring was wrong and they shipped out the correct one right away. Forge's customer service is great, never an issue. So I have the yellow ready to go in the WGA. I was at the Englishtown Track Day on Friday and went into N.Y. C Saturday to visit friends so I will install it tonight when I get home. Yes, different springs is how you tuneForge valves and then spacers and adjustments is how you fine tune their valves. Think of it this way, you install a WGA on your car that will perform at or slightly above stock. You gain 1 option at this point, you have the option to tune the valve for higher boost where the factory valve is sealed.
When you add preload you are basically adjusting the timing at which the valves opens. The valve is still going to crack open at the predetermined pressure and will not hold pressure above the rating of the spring.
Up rating the spring now allows you to hold higher pressure, and you would also want to back off your preload and fine tune that from close to "zero", and work your way up.
So when I added the TMC, which produces higher boost, I wanted to start tuning the WGA and BOV for the higher boost. I dont get that spike in pressure that you and Tweak have talked about. Still making adjustments trying to get the most out of the TMC. This is the fun part ? right ? Maybee just for me ? IDK...
Does any of that make sense ? I hope I am not confusing the issue and answering your question.
T

Thank you Daytona500, you are right on the money regarding the adjustments... Finding the sweat spot is half the fun when tinkering.:thumbsup:

Daytona 500
06-23-2013, 11:28 PM
My WGA came with a Green and I went to Yellow tonight and backed off the preload. Forge had suggested to start at about 1/2 the diameter of the waist gate door pin, causing you to pull the rod toward the driver side of the car and attach to the WG door. So this is where I start, or my zero position. I went for a ride and only felt a slight change in power. I added 1 turn of preload and the car responded well. So I may make another adjustment after a day or so. My data logger is not reading boost so I need to get in touch with Innovate tomorrow about that. My BOV came the same as yours, Yellow installed and blue in the box. I would need to ask Forge about this tomorrow. I am not sure if yellow is the base spring or blue is. Color matching is not necessarily the goal. Data log boost and other parameters as normal to dial the car in. I am running the yellow in both right now. The BOV becomes an issue if your data logs show you are loosing boost when you shouldn't be then you may look to the BOV as not holding pressure, assuming everything is functioning properly. The WGA is more at the performance end of the equation. Holding the WG shut longer will produce more boost, however more is not always better. You have to make small adjustments and data log. Adjusting the WG to tight i.e. to have to heavy of a spring, too much preload, etc... will give you high boost readings, boost spikes, excessive IAT's, possibly cause the ECU to pull timing and go into limp mode. I cant stress enough, when making multiple changes it is imperative to date log. These are small turbo's and if they spin too much all you will be creating is a flame thrower.
Maybe Ryephile or someone can chime in to explain it better. I don't claim to be an expert, this is my experience from tuning my Speed 3 and the Abarth. The Abarth is running really well, making nice usable power with great drive ability with all the below mods and the TMC box set at 8. So far so good.
fantastic, thx! though, im slightly confused...
is yellow or green higher? You said yellow is for at or slightly above stock boost, but that u also had the yellow spring ready to install into the WGA. Did you mean green?

Is the point to always match colors of springs between the bov & wga?

Adding a spacer to the bov would delay the purge, ya?

Finally, how do you know when your wga is adjusted to tight/firm?
I know when it's too weak, but never can tell what symptons to listen for if it is adjusted too firm.

Thanks so much, your explanation made perfect sense!

shagghie
06-24-2013, 02:14 AM
I think i have my WGA set to too much preload... 3 or more full turns from "neutral".

green is lowest
yellow next
then blue
finally, red

Daytona 500
06-24-2013, 12:08 PM
I will P M you pics of how my WG is set up. Counting turns per aplication is great to keep tract of what you have done, but probably not to compare from car to car.
I think i have my WGA set to too much preload... 3 or more full turns from "neutral".

green is lowest
yellow next
then blue
finally, red

shagghie
06-24-2013, 12:39 PM
I will P M you pics of how my WG is set up. Counting turns per aplication is great to keep tract of what you have done, but probably not to compare from car to car.

I have photos when I first installed it that were of the # of visible threads starting from left to right (passenger side to driver's side) of the threaded WGA arm. It's quite a few threads to count, but they were visible and I thought it a good place to benchmark from, rather than recalling whether I did a full turn here, a 1/2 turn there, etc. as time went on. I would LOVE to see a picture of your set up, especially prior to auto-X this next weekend, which I'm frenetically trying to get the car set up for. After adding the MM ECM, I'm basically trying to find ways to run the engine as COOL as possible... the heat under the hood is extraordinary compared to before adding the MM ECM. So far, I'll I've done is add the turbo blanket, and remove a 16" portion of rear seal in the back right (driver's side) of the engine bay. I don't have the balls to install hood vents, and I'm still waiting for the ATM FMIC, so that's all I've figured out to do other than opening the hood between heats.

BigDaddySRT
06-24-2013, 01:07 PM
I have photos when I first installed it that were of the # of visible threads starting from left to right (passenger side to driver's side) of the threaded WGA arm. It's quite a few threads to count, but they were visible and I thought it a good place to benchmark from, rather than recalling whether I did a full turn here, a 1/2 turn there, etc. as time went on. I would LOVE to see a picture of your set up, especially prior to auto-X this next weekend, which I'm frenetically trying to get the car set up for. After adding the MM ECM, I'm basically trying to find ways to run the engine as COOL as possible... the heat under the hood is extraordinary compared to before adding the MM ECM. So far, I'll I've done is add the turbo blanket, and remove a 16" portion of rear seal in the back right (driver's side) of the engine bay. I don't have the balls to install hood vents, and I'm still waiting for the ATM FMIC, so that's all I've figured out to do other than opening the hood between heats.

So you are doing the right thing now.... and moving into Street Mod????

Abarth Five O
06-24-2013, 01:10 PM
Hood Vents!gun2

shagghie
06-24-2013, 03:32 PM
Hood Vents!gun2

I lack sufficient courage.


BigDaddy- I'm hoping when I do my tech inspection and borrow a local SCCA members printed out rule book I'll be able to determine what class to run in. Locally, SMF (Fwd) is probably not even as competitive, driver wise anyway. About to find out, but really to me it doesn't matter too much... if between myself and my car we both go faster every time, that's all that matters as long as I am in continual learning /studying/applying mode, I'll have fun.

BigDaddySRT
06-24-2013, 03:38 PM
I lack sufficient courage.


BigDaddy- I'm hoping when I do my tech inspection and borrow a local SCCA members printed out rule book I'll be able to determine what class to run in. Locally, SMF (Fwd) is probably not even as competitive, driver wise anyway. About to find out, but really to me it doesn't matter too much... if between myself and my car we both go faster every time, that's all that matters as long as I am in continual learning /studying/applying mode, I'll have fun.

You have a Wastegate, and a Piggy Back PCM... Both are not Legal in Stock, or Street Prepared.

If you believe you should be allowed in anything but SM, then you are sorely mistaken.

shagghie
06-24-2013, 03:45 PM
You have a Wastegate, and a Piggy Back PCM... Both are not Legal in Stock, or Street Prepared.

If you believe you should be allowed in anything but SM, then you are sorely mistaken.

I didn't say or believe anything, what do you mean? I haven't been in stock in ages, and have been running in STC. Now that I have the piggyback and wga/bov and a RSD on top of that, I'm going to go in whatever class they tell me to. That's what I'm saying, I don't care what class I run in... did I miss something?

Abarth Five O
06-24-2013, 03:54 PM
Look forward to hearing about your AutoX experiences. Sooner then later, your courage will probably high enough to install AC vents after you feel how hot your hood is after your 1st spirited AutoX run. Best of luck and most of all, have fun!

DS Ocampo
06-24-2013, 06:22 PM
Just finished my install of the NEUSPEED front and rear bars... Gonna do my motor mount and torque bar tonight be done by wed... Ill keep you posted

Daytona 500
06-24-2013, 08:04 PM
Sent you a pm.
T

I have photos when I first installed it that were of the # of visible threads starting from left to right (passenger side to driver's side) of the threaded WGA arm. It's quite a few threads to count, but they were visible and I thought it a good place to benchmark from, rather than recalling whether I did a full turn here, a 1/2 turn there, etc. as time went on. I would LOVE to see a picture of your set up, especially prior to auto-X this next weekend, which I'm frenetically trying to get the car set up for. After adding the MM ECM, I'm basically trying to find ways to run the engine as COOL as possible... the heat under the hood is extraordinary compared to before adding the MM ECM. So far, I'll I've done is add the turbo blanket, and remove a 16" portion of rear seal in the back right (driver's side) of the engine bay. I don't have the balls to install hood vents, and I'm still waiting for the ATM FMIC, so that's all I've figured out to do other than opening the hood between heats.

shagghie
06-24-2013, 08:30 PM
sick can't wait to hear how those change the attitude of the car!
Just finished my install of the NEUSPEED front and rear bars... Gonna do my motor mount and torque bar tonight be done by wed... Ill keep you posted

DS Ocampo
06-24-2013, 11:51 PM
Car engine bay... Now the mounts

BigDaddySRT
06-25-2013, 08:25 AM
I didn't say or believe anything, what do you mean? I haven't been in stock in ages, and have been running in STC. Now that I have the piggyback and wga/bov and a RSD on top of that, I'm going to go in whatever class they tell me to. That's what I'm saying, I don't care what class I run in... did I miss something?

"These allowances also apply to forced induction cars, except that no changes to standard boost levels, intercoolers, or boost controls are permitted."

The Magneti Marelli Piggy Back alters the Stock Boost Level, and the Forge WGA is a mechanical boost controller.


Street Mod here you come.

shagghie
06-25-2013, 11:21 AM
"These allowances also apply to forced induction cars, except that no changes to standard boost levels, intercoolers, or boost controls are permitted."
The Magneti Marelli Piggy Back alters the Stock Boost Level, and the Forge WGA is a mechanical boost controller.
Street Mod here you come.

Right! that's what I was sayin'... I thought you were implying that I was trying to stay in a class without moving 'up' to street mod or something... chalk it up to reading into your post too much. I'll you know how SM goes!

BigDaddySRT
06-25-2013, 11:35 AM
Right! that's what I was sayin'... I thought you were implying that I was trying to stay in a class without moving 'up' to street mod or something... chalk it up to reading into your post too much. I'll you know how SM goes!

Well... you were reading too much.

All I was pointing out was once you started modifying the Boost Control (MM Piggy Back and WGA) you get Classed into Street Mod.

I tried at one time to build a Street Mod Car... it all came down How Much Money I was willing to spend.


The only advantage and disadvantage to SM... is the fact you can do almost whatever you want.

shagghie
06-25-2013, 11:44 AM
yeah that's a good point. There could be a person in there that has 50k sunk into a car, and another poor kid with 'only' an ECM.... wider wheels with race slicks and ground effects, competing with someone with only a boost valve and Rear Seat Delete, lol. I wonder what happens to PAX times in a class like that...does it just get esoteric and meaningless at that point? How will I end up rating my driving overall in other words?


Well... you were reading too much.

All I was pointing out was once you started modifying the Boost Control (MM Piggy Back and WGA) you get Classed into Street Mod.

I tried at one time to build a Street Mod Car... it all came down How Much Money I was willing to spend.


The only advantage and disadvantage to SM... is the fact you can do almost whatever you want.

BigDaddySRT
06-26-2013, 11:56 AM
yeah that's a good point. There could be a person in there that has 50k sunk into a car, and another poor kid with 'only' an ECM.... wider wheels with race slicks and ground effects, competing with someone with only a boost valve and Rear Seat Delete, lol. I wonder what happens to PAX times in a class like that...does it just get esoteric and meaningless at that point? How will I end up rating my driving overall in other words?

You aren't going to fair well if you were hoping to take home a trophy in Street Mod.

Look what I found real quick:
http://www.ivliberty.com/cars/pax.html


As long as you go in getting better times every run, and not comparing yourself to other Street Mods... then you are probably going to feel good at the end of the day.

But you can't compare yourself to Street Prepared or Stock Times, because you have improved Boost Parameters.
It's simply not Fair.


Autocross is all about having Fun, and Learning how to Drive.
Now that you are in SM... the Money Factor gets added in and you start wondering what you need to buy to WIN!!!

Grrrr.... SM is for the Birds.

shagghie
06-26-2013, 12:23 PM
I feel you there... if this was only my track / weekend car I would probably put rubber and a rear torsion bar and call it a day...but it's also my DD and my only car, so I don't really have a choice what class it puts me in, and as you say, I'll just have to find a way to have fun without worrying too much about comparison to other drivers.


You aren't going to fair well if you were hoping to take home a trophy in Street Mod.

Look what I found real quick:
http://www.ivliberty.com/cars/pax.html




As long as you go in getting better times every run, and not comparing yourself to other Street Mods... then you are probably going to feel good at the end of the day.

But you can't compare yourself to Street Prepared or Stock Times, because you have improved Boost Parameters.
It's simply not Fair.


Autocross is all about having Fun, and Learning how to Drive.
Now that you are in SM... the Money Factor gets added in and you start wondering what you need to buy to WIN!!!

Grrrr.... SM is for the Birds.

BigDaddySRT
06-26-2013, 01:21 PM
I feel you there... if this was only my track / weekend car I would probably put rubber and a rear torsion bar and call it a day...but it's also my DD and my only car, so I don't really have a choice what class it puts me in, and as you say, I'll just have to find a way to have fun without worrying too much about comparison to other drivers.

I can almost guarantee that there are cars in Stock that don't belong... and there are cars in Street Prepared that don't belong... it's a matter of what rule you get caught "bending".

You notice that I said "Bend".... and not "Break".



"What they eyes see... the mind perceives."

trevc
06-26-2013, 02:08 PM
Interested why you think he does not fit in Street Prepared (DSP)?
It allows for intercooler changes.
Allows piggy-back boxes.
All it says about wastegates is that the size and number cannot change.
It allows for changing turbo boost and removing emission control devices.
It does say no changes to blow-off / pop-off valves for some reason but I don't see how the forge BOV gains anything and would likely be overlooked.

Still not a great class to be put in but fairer that Street Modifed.

shagghie
06-26-2013, 02:13 PM
Interested why you think he does not fit in Street Prepared (DSP)?
It allows for intercooler changes.
Allows piggy-back boxes.
All it says about wastegates is that the size and number cannot change.
It allows for changing turbo boost and removing emission control devices.
It does say no changes to blow-off / pop-off valves for some reason but I don't see how the forge BOV gains anything and would likely be overlooked.

Still not a great class to be put in but fairer that Street Modifed.


I think Rear Seat Delete also pushes me over, and the Forge WGA may be considered a 'different size', whatever that means? BOV for sure, but agree to your point about raw performance: zero gain there.

Big Daddy, thoughts?

redred
06-26-2013, 02:56 PM
You need to get that car to the track Shag!!! All those mods would be a blast on Streets of Willow!! A nice, short, highly technical track suits these cars perfectly.

shagghie
06-26-2013, 04:04 PM
You need to get that car to the track Shag!!! All those mods would be a blast on Streets of Willow!! A nice, short, highly technical track suits these cars perfectly.

I know I know! But I'm up to my ears in Auto-X! Going to try to get the Coilovers switched out to Neu-F's and Konis on Friday before the Auto-X on Saturday!
Hoping I don't rub with the 215 rubber in the rear.... kinda of banking on the Neu-F rear springs (semi-progressive, but much stiffer than the other's still).

Anyone else running Koni's, lowered... recommendations on initial setting for em for track?

ReconTopher
06-26-2013, 07:22 PM
Shagghie, I plan on going down on the 30th to check it out, so I'll try to see you there.

shagghie
06-26-2013, 10:29 PM
Shagghie, I plan on going down on the 30th to check it out, so I'll try to see you there.
perfect, i should be in the afternoon run group if i got my preference during registration...
of course say hi, and if u register w scca i should be able to take you as a passenger if you want.

shagghie
06-27-2013, 12:38 AM
loostened my wga pretension tonight per Daytona 500's suggestions, ended up here, and all seems well now with boost profile combined w yellow spring in the bov:

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/shagghie/C5FFE929-000B-4A27-9FF7-25FF60A1AF9C-5489-0000039B70F81992.jpg



http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/shagghie/69EF1670-46DA-4ED3-9F00-9F7643A1E075-5489-0000039B5F7EBB25.mp4

BigDaddySRT
06-27-2013, 09:01 AM
Interested why you think he does not fit in Street Prepared (DSP)?
It allows for intercooler changes.
Allows piggy-back boxes.
All it says about wastegates is that the size and number cannot change.
It allows for changing turbo boost and removing emission control devices.
It does say no changes to blow-off / pop-off valves for some reason but I don't see how the forge BOV gains anything and would likely be overlooked.

Still not a great class to be put in but fairer that Street Modifed.

Per the "SCCA - Street Touring" Rule Book.

17.10. ENGINE

A. Engine and transmission must remain unmodified, including emissions equipment, except as noted below:
B. Alternate air cleaner enclosures up to carburetor or throttlebody. This does not allow any changes to intercoolers.
C. Headers, emissions-legal.
D. The engine management system parameters and operations may be modified only by the methods listed below. Any and all modifications must meet or exceed the applicable US DOT emissions standards for the year, make, and model of the car. These allowances also apply to forced induction cars, except that no changes to standard boost levels, intercoolers, or boost controls are permitted.

1. Reprogrammed ECU may be used in the standard housing. Traction control parameters may not be altered.
2. Electronic components may be installed inline between an engine's sensors and ECU. These components may alter the signal coming from the sensor in order to affect the ECU's operation of the engine management system. Example: fuel controllers that modify the signal coming from an airflow sensor.
3. Fuel pressure regulators may be replaced in lieu of electronic alterations to the fuel system. It is not permitted to electronically modify the fuel system AND replace a fuel presure regulator.
4. Ignition timing may be set at any point on factory adjustable distributor ignition systems.
5. VTEC controllers and other devices may be used which alter the timing of factory standard electronic variable valve timing systems.
6. The mass airflow sensor must remain in its approximate original location.

All STS vehicles must comply with the Federal 49-state safety and tailpipe emissions test requirements as a minimum.


The Magneti Marelli Piggy Back alters the Stock Boost Level, and the Forge WGA is a mechanical boost controller.

Plus... you'll note that Air Cleaner Enclosures (Intakes) are allowed up to the Carburetor/ Throttle Body.... which means you are not allowed Modified Throttle Bodies in SP/ STC.

BigDaddySRT
06-27-2013, 09:06 AM
SCCA - Street Prepared Rule Book:

14.10 Engine and Drive Train

A. Engines must retain standard type lubricating system, but may have any oil pan (Accusump-type systems allowed), oil pump and pickup, oil coolers, oil or fuel filters. Fuel filters must be of automotive type and serve no other purpose. A permitted oil cooler may be positioned in an opening in an allowed spoiler, provided no unauthorized modifications are made in order to perform the installation.
B. Heat shields may be added.
C. Carburetors, fuel injection, intercoolers and intake manifolds are unrestricted. Alternate throttle linkage and connections to facilitate installation of allowed induction systems are permitted, but may serve no other purpose. As utilized only on engines originally equipped with forced induction, air-to-air heat exchangers (known as "intecoolers"), and radiators which are part of air-to-liquid charge coolers, must be cooled only by the atmosphere.


The use of chilled liquids, ice, dry ice, refrigeration systems, vaporized compressed gases, etc. is prohibited. If an induction system item is allowed to be removed and its original mounting bracket can be removed simply by unbolting it, the bracket may be removed as well. Turbochargers may not be added, changed or modified. Turbocharger and supercharger systems may only be updated/backdated with the accompanying engine unit. No changes are allowed to waste gates, pressure sensors or their location, and to other turbocharger or supercharger boost limiting systems. This allowance does not permit changes to blow-off (pop-off) valves. Devices known as "fuel cut defensers", and any modifications which alter or defeat the fuel cutoff when it is activated by boost level, are not permitted.

BigDaddySRT
06-27-2013, 09:09 AM
loostened my wga pretension tonight per Daytona 500's suggestions, ended up here, and all seems well now with boost profile combined w yellow spring in the bov:

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/shagghie/C5FFE929-000B-4A27-9FF7-25FF60A1AF9C-5489-0000039B70F81992.jpg



http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/shagghie/69EF1670-46DA-4ED3-9F00-9F7643A1E075-5489-0000039B5F7EBB25.mp4

If you were to walk into the Studio and complain about the Boost Response is lacking in your ABARTH... they simply shorten the Wastegate Arm by a few mm to add some pre-load and improve low end Boost response.


Don't forget... "What the eyes see, the mind perceives."

You've shot yourself in the foot posting all about your modifications.

shagghie
06-27-2013, 01:05 PM
If you were to walk into the Studio and complain about the Boost Response is lacking in your ABARTH... they simply shorten the Wastegate Arm by a few mm to add some pre-load and improve low end Boost response.


Don't forget... "What the eyes see, the mind perceives."

You've shot yourself in the foot posting all about your modifications.

I'm ok with that... I couldn't learn as much if I didn't, and while it is a risk posting, thankfully my local studio is mod-friend and copacetic to Abarth owners that bought the car in the first place for the sole point of, well, you know... further Abarth-izing it. That is the ONLY thing this car is about in the first place, and the only logical reason to own one from where I stand. It's got Carl Abarth's name on the BADGE in the first place...something I'm still shocked about... it should have been called a 500R or something, with an Abarth plaque on the dash or something to pay homage. Or, they should sell ABARTH performance parts. Or whatever, but making it it's own marque is 'interesting' to me to say the least. Last night I reduced the pre-load by 1.5 turns... boost comes on a lot smoother now, much more suited for DD, but still no slouch.

wsanders20002
06-27-2013, 06:14 PM
Hey Shagghie,

Where can I find out info for Auto-X(s)? I am new to this.

shagghie
06-27-2013, 06:19 PM
Hey Shagghie,

Where can I find out info for Auto-X(s)? I am new to this.

Heya... well I'm mostly familiar with SCCA SOLO 2 Auto-X, but there is also NASA and other sponsored/localized events, too. But here in San Diego, you start here:

http://www.sdr-scca.com/solo2/

and check out this awesome short video for the lay of the land:
http://vimeo.com/12067348

Are you local / So Cal?

wsanders20002
06-27-2013, 07:04 PM
Hey, thanks! No, Michigan and Washington DC.

shagghie
06-27-2013, 07:16 PM
You might reach out to Ryephile for MI SCCA info, or just google for the SCCA chapter closest to you and contact them. Other places to do searches on are Facebook and Twitter.. one thing is common across the board: Everyone is usually friendly and willing/wanting to help get you acquainted, so don't be afraid to ask questions, dumb questions, and lots of them! What I think you'll find is it's a pretty easy sport to get involved in and that the competition ( YOURSELF ) is very fierce! :-P

BigDaddySRT
06-28-2013, 07:49 AM
I'm ok with that... I couldn't learn as much if I didn't, and while it is a risk posting, thankfully my local studio is mod-friend and copacetic to Abarth owners that bought the car in the first place for the sole point of, well, you know... further Abarth-izing it. That is the ONLY thing this car is about in the first place, and the only logical reason to own one from where I stand. It's got Carl Abarth's name on the BADGE in the first place...something I'm still shocked about... it should have been called a 500R or something, with an Abarth plaque on the dash or something to pay homage. Or, they should sell ABARTH performance parts. Or whatever, but making it it's own marque is 'interesting' to me to say the least. Last night I reduced the pre-load by 1.5 turns... boost comes on a lot smoother now, much more suited for DD, but still no slouch.

Well... Just in case people don't know... MOPAR Performance was working a deal to offer Magneti Marelli Parts for the ABARTH and DART 1.4L Turbo under the MOPAR Performance Parts Branding... but there is a certain government organization that is putting the stinky finger in those plans.

The probability to see any "Performance" Enhancing Parts with the MOPAR Name is very very very slim.