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View Full Version : Dyno run - Good, Bad or Ugly???



Retroguy
06-10-2013, 10:28 AM
Hello forum.

I'm a newbie to the forum, and a happy new 2013 Gigio Abarth owner. I purchased the Abarth in January, and after reading many posting
on this site and others, I later purchased a Magneti Marelli Piggyback ECU and Power Petal. I also bought a Eurocompulsion short air intake,
some Madness HIDs, a Road Race CF rear spoiler, and a few LED lighting upgrades.

The air intake, MM ECU and PP were all installed at the same time by the dealer. When I got the car back, I was thrilled with the improvement in
power and responsiveness. After reading numerous postings and seeing tons of Dyno charts, I decided to put the car on a Dyno and see what it was doing.

The dyno runs were made at Henderson Performance in New Braunfels Texas, last weekend. Runs were in 4th gear, A/C off,
ECS off, SPORT on, MM setting 2. The dyno was a DYNOJET.

Two runs were made. The second run was made within just a few minutes of the first, and was lower because of something described as "heat soak".
I was surprised to see that although the max torque was up from published Fiat specifications (196.6), the wheel HP was only coming in at 162.8 HP.
The technician who ran the testing said it felt to him like something was holding back the car.

When I drive the car, I'm still impressed with the performance, but I'm wondering if there is something out of whack?

Many here on this forum are much more knowledgeable about such things, so I'd certainly appreciate an opinion or two.
If your vehicle pulled this on a dyno, what would you think?

Thanks for any assistance.

Doug
Austin, Texas

opiateESP
06-10-2013, 11:00 AM
That's a lot to lose from 2 runs due to heat soak. I lost 5 HP from heat soak after 4 runs. Was there a fan infront?

That puts you around 185 crank HP and 225 ft/lbs. That's really nothing to be ashamed of. Different dynos read differently depending on calibration of the dyno and a bunch of other varying factors. If you head over to a different dyno, you will likely end up with different numbers. As long as you are using a reputable shop, I wouldn't worry too much and just use this as a base line for your next mods. If you feel something is wrong, bring it to the dealership and get them to double check their work.

BigDaddySRT
06-10-2013, 11:10 AM
That's a lot to lose from 2 runs due to heat soak. I lost 5 HP from heat soak after 4 runs. Was there a fan infront?

That puts you around 185 crank HP and 225 ft/lbs. That's really nothing to be ashamed of. Different dynos read differently depending on calibration of the dyno and a bunch of other varying factors. If you head over to a different dyno, you will likely end up with different numbers. As long as you are using a reputable shop, I wouldn't worry too much and just use this as a base line for your next mods. If you feel something is wrong, bring it to the dealership and get them to double check their work.

What Voodoo Magic are you using to determine the Crank Horsepower/ Torque???

BigDaddySRT
06-10-2013, 11:16 AM
The dyno runs were made at Henderson Performance in New Braunfels Texas, last weekend. Runs were in 4th gear, A/C off,
ECS off, SPORT on, MM setting 2. The dyno was a DYNOJET.

Two runs were made. The second run was made within just a few minutes of the first, and was lower because of something described as "heat soak".
I was surprised to see that although the max torque was up from published Fiat specifications (196.6), the wheel HP was only coming in at 162.8 HP.
The technician who ran the testing said it felt to him like something was holding back the car.

Where's your Air to Fuel Chart???

opiateESP
06-10-2013, 11:26 AM
What Voodoo Magic are you using to determine the Crank Horsepower/ Torque???

The voodoo non scientific method of adding 15%. It's just an estimate. We all know that. :D

redred
06-10-2013, 11:30 AM
Oh the joys of Dyno charts. The list is endless as to why the two different runs were different. Unfortunately, Dyno's are really only good to get you in the ball park and usually take an assortment of runs to get an idea of what the car is doing. In the end there are a lot of factors that can show such a varied difference in two runs.

acrcpe45
06-10-2013, 11:32 AM
What Voodoo Magic are you using to determine the Crank Horsepower/ Torque???

I'm not sure what voodoo magic he is using, but... Playing bench dyno on a keyboard is like sticking a finger up a random person's butt and guessing what they ate for lunch. It is ricer math and nothing more.

The original poster should consider going back to Henderson (who are great people BTW) and dyno the car on setting 1 (40%) and see the dofference. He could also considering disconnecting the MM ECU on the spot and running again. Knowing Corey and the guys at Henderson, I am sure they will work with him to get to see the full affect of his mods.

Dyno days are always fun. But, don't try to compare your car to others because there are way to many variables. You wrote a great list of mods.

The weather wasn't exactly great for dyno records last Saturday in New Braunfels, near 80% humidity and around 90 degrees. It was hot as hell at Schlitterbahn.

Mike

opiateESP
06-10-2013, 11:38 AM
I'm not sure what voodoo magic he is using, but... Playing bench dyno on a keyboard is lik sticking a finger up a butt and guessing what they ate for lunch. It is ricer math and nothing more.

The original poster should consider going back to Henderson (who are great people BTW) and dyno the car on setting 1 (40%) and see the dofference. He could also considering disconnecting the MM ECU on the spot and running again. Knowing Corey and the guys at Henderson, I am sure they will work with him to get to see the full affect of his mods.

Dyno days are always fun. But, don't try to compare your car to others because there are way to many variables. You wrote a great list of mods.

The weather wasn't exactly great for dyno records last Saturday in New Braunfels, near 80% humidity and around 90 degrees. It was hot as hell at Schlitterbahn.

Mike

:roll eyes:

15% is average drive train loss between WHP and Crank. Our drive trains apparently have an average loss of 12% from crank so adding 15% at the wheels is a way to rough estimate the reversal. No, as I said, dyno's are not accurate and a different dyno will yield different results. Read before posting.

acrcpe45
06-10-2013, 11:45 AM
The voodoo non scientific method of adding 15%. It's just an estimate. We all know that. :D

Do we? Drivetrain loss can range from 5 to 25% and more in same cases...

I have never seen official numbers from Chrysler or FPT on what the actual drivetrain loss is on the C510 Performance Five-Speed Transmission.

Mike

opiateESP
06-10-2013, 11:47 AM
Do we? Drivetrain loss can range from 5 to 25% and more in same cases...

I have never seen official numbers from Chrysler or FPT on what the actual drivetrain loss is on the C510 Performance Five-Speed Transmission.

Mike

Do you need me to bold non scientific?

acrcpe45
06-10-2013, 11:48 AM
:roll eyes:

15% is average drive train loss between WHP and Crank. Our drive trains apparently have an average loss of 12% from crank so adding 15% at the wheels is a way to rough estimate the reversal. No, as I said, dyno's are not accurate and a different dyno will yield different results. Read before posting.

I did read your post... And dyno's are accurate. They allow you to benchmark your vehicle in a controlled manner similar to your average driving conditions (weather, altitude, etc.).

Dyno's are fantastic for building performance data for a specific vehicle.

Mike

acrcpe45
06-10-2013, 11:49 AM
Do you need me to bold non scientific?

No, just leave the ricer math for the Honduh web forums.

We have fancy cars here.

Mike

opiateESP
06-10-2013, 11:54 AM
I did read your post... And dyno's are accurate. They allow you to benchmark your vehicle in a controlled manner similar to your average driving conditions (weather, altitude, etc.).

Dyno's are fantastic for building performance data for a specific vehicle.

Mike

They're only as accurate as the person operating them.


No, just leave the ricer math for the Honduh web forums.

We have fancy cars here.

Mike

Thanks fancy boy.

-Ricer

sfhpawel
06-10-2013, 11:57 AM
I'm not sure what voodoo magic he is using, but... Playing bench dyno on a keyboard is like sticking a finger up a random person's butt and guessing what they ate for lunch. It is ricer math and nothing more.

The original poster should consider going back to Henderson (who are great people BTW) and dyno the car on setting 1 (40%) and see the dofference. He could also considering disconnecting the MM ECU on the spot and running again. Knowing Corey and the guys at Henderson, I am sure they will work with him to get to see the full affect of his mods.

Dyno days are always fun. But, don't try to compare your car to others because there are way to many variables. You wrote a great list of mods.

The weather wasn't exactly great for dyno records last Saturday in New Braunfels, near 80% humidity and around 90 degrees. It was hot as hell at Schlitterbahn.



well if you checked your eyes and kept your fingers out your butt you'd notice the humidity was %40 :)

As for dyno results. We've seen plenty to figure what kind of % loss you can expect from crank to wheels, so the voodoo magic #'s range is minimal. There is nothing on the market currently to put you above or below an unexpected 20hp range. If there is ... you KNOW you have to get your car checked out.

Bad advice on the MM ECU. I would suggest each different setting for each different day. The ECU needs to relearn with proper ecu reset, and a change on the spot will not give you accurate results.

To the OP, get yourself a datalogger through Iphone/Android. The logger is great, and I personally trust it over a dyno. You get REAL world numbers using the sensors built in and made for your car.

Fiat500USA
06-10-2013, 12:04 PM
Let's make sure we don't get off track go into personal attack mode. Thanks!

acrcpe45
06-10-2013, 12:16 PM
well if you checked your eyes and kept your fingers out your butt you'd notice the humidity was %40 :)

As for dyno results. We've seen plenty to figure what kind of % loss you can expect from crank to wheels, so the voodoo magic #'s range is minimal. There is nothing on the market currently to put you above or below an unexpected 20hp range. If there is ... you KNOW you have to get your car checked out.

Bad advice on the MM ECU. I would suggest each different setting for each different day. The ECU needs to relearn with proper ecu reset, and a change on the spot will not give you accurate results.

To the OP, get yourself a datalogger through Iphone/Android. The logger is great, and I personally trust it over a dyno. You get REAL world numbers using the sensors built in and made for your car.

I live in New Braunfels. The humidity on Saturday was
60% at 10:51
67% at 12:51 PM
53% at 2:51
48% at 4:51 (showers in area and it cooled off a bit)
59% at 6:51
69% at 8:51
72% at 10:51
89% at 12:51 am

Intellicast.com offers a great weather historian tool. The original poster did not say the time of day he ran the car.

The relative elevation ranges from 630ft to 920 depending on where you are in town. The humidity is also variable by location because of the rivers, streams, and elevation. That's part of living on the edge of the Balcones Fault in the Texas Hill Country. Henderson is higher in elevation than say Schlitterbahn.

There are something like 95 registered sex offenders in town also, if that interests you... I can give a link to find their addresses also.

As long as you use the same dyno with the same operator and the same correction values, you can build a great table of information about your vehicle at that location.

Mike

acrcpe45
06-10-2013, 12:23 PM
Just to be clear, Henderson Performance is operated a mechanical engineer. They are well established in the area and are especially well know for their work with LS powered cars. They are more than capable of properly operating an automotive dyno.

Mike

BigDaddySRT
06-10-2013, 12:37 PM
No, just leave the ricer math for the Honduh web forums.

We have fancy cars here.

Mike

LOL!!!!!!

"fancy cars"

Retroguy
06-10-2013, 12:56 PM
Thanks very much all for your thought provoking responses.

Sorry, I don't have an A/F chart. Didn't see one...

The testing was done at 1:00 PM on Saturday, and the temperature was around 90 Degrees F, and the humidity was at least 42% according to the chart.

A small fan was blowing during the test.

Good suggestions about retesting using different MM ECU settings.

One of the things that bugs me about the MM ECU piggyback is a lack of feedback confirming that the unit is actually set in 0, 1 or 2 mode.
Yes a small LED flashes when I press a button, but that's not the same as getting a visual confirmation.

I'm not unhappy with the performance at all - just wondering if I'm leaving something on the table. I'm also just a bit confused as to why there should be a 35 HP difference
between my dyno HP number and the 500 Madness numbers posted some time ago for a MM equipped similar vehicle. I as actually expecting something near 200 whp, but maybe that was unrealistic...

And yes, Henderson is a great tuner and I have confidence in their dyno skills.

Nice to see another central Texan on the boards :)

Warmest regards

Doug

deathshead
06-10-2013, 01:00 PM
What you your guy felt "holding back" is most likely the ECU pulling timing due to the crappy stock tune.

BigDaddySRT
06-10-2013, 01:10 PM
One of the things that bugs me about the MM ECU piggyback is a lack of feedback confirming that the unit is actually set in 0, 1 or 2 mode.
Yes a small LED flashes when I press a button, but that's not the same as getting a visual confirmation.

I'm not unhappy with the performance at all - just wondering if I'm leaving something on the table. I'm also just a bit confused as to why there should be a 35 HP difference
between my dyno HP number and the 500 Madness numbers posted some time ago for a MM equipped similar vehicle. I as actually expecting something near 200 whp, but maybe that was unrealistic...

Are you referring to this thread:
http://500madness.com/500madness/forums/showthread.php?1190-ABARTH-Engine-Module-Comparison-Dyno&p=3687#post3687

Exact Quotes from Thread:
The first run was done to establish a baseline. We ran a stock ABARTH with no modifications on 91 octaine gas. The dyno showed 155 HP.

The second run was done with the TMC Box set at the #8 setting. No other mods were on the car besides the TMC Box. Dyno Sheet below.

TMC Box (no other mods) on setting #8 = 187.6 HP

We tried taking the TMC box up another notch, but no further gains were attained.

Next one up was the Magneti Marelli Module. We set the MM Module at 77% (the default setting and the same setting that was used on the Venom Concept ABARTH).

The ABARTH with the Magneti Marelli Module hit 196.5 Horsepower. No other mods were on this car besides the module.

Retroguy
06-10-2013, 01:14 PM
Yep - That's the thread...

Doug

BigDaddySRT
06-10-2013, 01:21 PM
Yep - That's the thread...

Doug

Read Further in... they have someone explain how their numbers came from a Dynapack.

acrcpe45
06-10-2013, 01:40 PM
Read Further in... they have someone explain how their numbers came from a Dynapack.

I'm still not convinced on the bang for the buck factor of the piggy back modules.

Mike

acrcpe45
06-10-2013, 01:44 PM
Thanks very much all for your thought provoking responses.
And yes, Henderson is a great tuner and I have confidence in their dyno skills.

Nice to see another central Texan on the boards :)

Warmest regards

Doug

You bet dude.

BTW, they probably saved your run, give him a call and see if you can't a copy of the A/F

Mike

Chico Valdez
06-10-2013, 02:29 PM
As far as dyno numbers are concerned, unless one is trying to ascertain a transfer or frictional power loss somewhere, gross numbers from a chassis dyno are pretty useless. What matters is what gets put to the ground.
Nothing, as long as you can be consistent, is as good as track time. It's like losing weight, you're really not concerned with the scale, but the measuring tape.
Retroguy, the tq is a decent increase from factory claims. The HP numbers? Who knows. If you dyno the car again get them to give you an rpm, O2, ect, iat, cht, map, and egt readout. Injector pulsewidth, FP and timing would be nice if they even have that capability. It'll go a long way toward diagnosing the 'lack' of increase. Of course, this is providing you can afford it, but then this is getting further away from 'just a dyno run' too. So it may be overkill for your needs.

sfhpawel
06-10-2013, 02:48 PM
I'm still not convinced on the bang for the buck factor of the piggy back modules.

Mike

- Honstly dude, I would stay away from the people that wrote that thread... In the past I wanted to believe their items would make my car as good as they advertised ... then I found people that are real Fiat enthusiasts with honesty and a brain that showed me the way.

- The MM unit, has had nothing but terrible review all accross the board. You see them in the classified section all the time. The only good thing about them is you can show up at the Studio with it installed since its a MOPAR accessorie...

- I wouldnt waste my money on another dyno run with that set up.
Return the unit if possible.
I would go TMC or R/R($100more). I cant guarantee better results ... but it has been a popular choice.

- Also the MM unit has the 3 settings correct? well that doesnt mean you are set at 50%/75%/100%. The mm unit can be programed.. the the 3 levels COULD be set for 55%/56%/57% if you really wanted to...

so you are kind of in the blind right there my friend depending on what the controller came programmed with...

the ecm though in general, there is a noticable difference in my opinion. is it worth the money? well... I wouldnt want to give my R/R ECM away.

we bought a cars that are fairly inexpensive. $500 for the boost it gives, is fairly cheap.

Ryephile
06-10-2013, 05:00 PM
....
The dyno runs were made at Henderson Performance in New Braunfels Texas, last weekend. Runs were in 4th gear, A/C off,
ECS off, SPORT on, MM setting 2. The dyno was a DYNOJET.

Two runs were made. The second run was made within just a few minutes of the first, and was lower because of something described as "heat soak".
I was surprised to see that although the max torque was up from published Fiat specifications (196.6), the wheel HP was only coming in at 162.8 HP.
The technician who ran the testing said it felt to him like something was holding back the car.
....

Does the car pull consistently on the street? 30 LbFt of torque in the midrange is hugely noticeable....about the difference between Sport and normal modes. That's my hunch between pulls; that Sport was pressed Off for the 2nd run. There looks to be a boost reduction across the RPM range.

Retroguy
06-10-2013, 08:00 PM
Thanks sfhpawel and Ryephile.

Concerning the reputation of the vendor that posted, I personally have had nothing but positive experiences with them, so I'd like to keep an open mind on this subject.
I definitely wanted a piggyback arrangement and not an ECU reflash because it leaves the ECU engine protection safeguards intact, and presumably the worst damage I can do would be to throw a few codes or trip a limp-home. And even though Magneti Marelli is owned (partially) by FIAT, the ECU piggyback is not yet a MOPAR product, but
I find that the studio mechanics and managers don't seem to take an extreme hard line on Warranty - at least while everything seems to be OK with the vehicle :)

There's no question that the with the MM ECU piggyback and the Power Petal the car's driving personality is changed significantly, and in my opinion for the better.
I like to drive it in MM setting 2 in non-sport mode. Steering seems a little more comfortably relaxing, yet it will still hit boost plenty fast when I stomp on it.

You are correct that the MM boost settings are programmed into the ECU, and supposedly setting 2 is 77%. 77% of what, I have no earthly idea, but that number is supposed to be just under the threshold of throwing CELs. I have not thrown a CEL once since the install a month ago. Bottom line is that overall I'm happy with the improvement. I'm sure I would have also been happy with a RR or TMC ECU as well - many people are. I see no compelling need to swap it out at this point.

Ryephile, you know that's a really astute observation. I know that the technician shut the car down for 5 minutes before the second run, and maybe he just plain forgot to press the sport button. In any case, I do not notice any difference between pulls on the street. Seems the same to me, so that's why I scratched my head when he talked about heat soak. And you are right, torque is noticeably improved according to my butt dyno.

Does anyone think that adding a blow off valve would make any significant difference to these curves?

Thanks all

Doug

BigDaddySRT
06-11-2013, 06:20 AM
- The MM unit, has had nothing but terrible review all accross the board. You see them in the classified section all the time. The only good thing about them is you can show up at the Studio with it installed since its a MOPAR accessorie...

Really.... I'd love to see the MOPAR Performance Catalog that list the Magneti Marelli Piggyback as a MOPAR Accessory for the DART and ABARTH.

Guest
06-11-2013, 09:51 AM
Hey Retroguy and welcome to the forum (excuse the kids, things used to be a little more relaxed here). Great mods, dont sweat the dyno, if youre happy with the power then its all good. Did you get to drive the car without any mods or did it come that way?? Id say that difference would be much more important than one stand alone dyno run. I had my car for about 1500km before I added pretty much the same stuff as you. I noticed a MASSIVE difference in performance from a reasonably nippy motor to what I describe as "violent" acceleration for such a small car. So much so I recommend a suspension upgrade to keep it all in check!

Im approaching 38k on the clock now at the year of ownership point, no problems, no engine lights just happy motoring. The MM boxes have been very good to me (no remotes for me-always on full and always drive with SPORT on), I borrowed a TMC box for a weekend ``just to see`` and the MM felt faster off the mark. Not tested the RRM so cant comment on that as such. All in the ECMs are great bang for buck, the MM PP is a nice touch but loses a little when added with an ECM and the EuroComp intake is an excellent addition too...

Haters gonna hate and all that, youll get used to the `noise`but enjoy the car and let us know how it goes :)

Ryephile
06-11-2013, 10:18 AM
....Ryephile, you know that's a really astute observation. I know that the technician shut the car down for 5 minutes before the second run, and maybe he just plain forgot to press the sport button. In any case, I do not notice any difference between pulls on the street. Seems the same to me, so that's why I scratched my head when he talked about heat soak. And you are right, torque is noticeably improved according to my butt dyno.

Does anyone think that adding a blow off valve would make any significant difference to these curves?

Thanks all

Doug

You're welcome. :) Knowing the operator shut down the car, it's very plausible the 2nd run is in normal mode. It matches up cleanly.

A BOV would not change the power curve unless yours is leaking for some reason. A higher flowing BOV would reduce turbo compressor surge, which allows for quicker boost response during gear changes.

acrcpe45
06-11-2013, 10:55 AM
-

- The MM unit, has had nothing but terrible review all accross the board. You see them in the classified section all the time. The only good thing about them is you can show up at the Studio with it installed since its a MOPAR accessorie...



Just to be clear, the MM piggie back unit(s) are not Mopar Accessories.

Mike

Seafarer61
06-11-2013, 01:44 PM
Knowing the operator shut down the car, it's very plausible the 2nd run is in normal mode.

Yup. That's where I would place a paycheck bet. Right there.

MADNESSLuckyJay
06-12-2013, 02:13 PM
Hey guys, just wanted to try and help out. I'd highly suggest comparing to our most recent dyno testing, the link provided is outdated, new one is here:

http://www.fiat500usaforum.com/showthread.php?8938-ECU-and-Intake-Gains-straight-from-the-Dyno!-15HP-GAINS-FROM-HIGH-FLOW-INTAKE!!!!!!&highlight=dyno

Reason being, we worked with MM to help figure out the best % numbers for their programming. It isn't just "crank it higher for more power" type of situation, diminishing returns show up pretty fast. To me it seems like maybe the sport button was off on the second run, heat soak wouldn't bring the numbers down that much in that short of a time. Also these MultiAir engines run different than most of us old-school tuners are used to. If you don't have enough air coming from the fan it will detune itself somewhat, very picky. As far as the MM boxes not being that good, and people getting rid of them, I don't see that. We sell so many of these boxes, we get shipments of 25-50 boxes at a time and they get sold almost right away, we've sold and installed 100s of them, very very few hit the resale market, you must remember that as much as we love the forums, and the great community it builds it only represents a very small portion of FIAT 500 owners. With your set-up you should be smiling every time you hit the throttle!

Guest
06-14-2013, 03:28 PM
Here's a thought... It's possible something caused the car to go to safe mode. Wouldn't that cause big loss??

As for the MM, there's been a conspiracy for a while and this happened in the UK but folk blaming the TMC for issues. My MM has never caused any issues or CELs. They aren't junk - FACT.

Enjoy the car!

shagghie
06-14-2013, 03:56 PM
You're welcome. :) Knowing the operator shut down the car, it's very plausible the 2nd run is in normal mode. It matches up cleanly.

A BOV would not change the power curve unless yours is leaking for some reason. A higher flowing BOV would reduce turbo compressor surge, which allows for quicker boost response during gear changes.


I've even forgotten to re-hit the sport button between auto-cross runs before... with all the excitement and adrenaline, it's not that hard to do. Another buddy tried getting his Ab dyno'd recently and had a host of challenges... they said the car was too short of a wheelbase, they said the ABS was messing things up, they said the ECU thought the e-brake was on, etc. etc. etc. Apparently lots of things can go wrong on a dyno. I was wondering if pulling the ABS/ECS fuse out before a run might help with some of these issues...something we used to do back in the day.