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View Full Version : Do Aftermarket Air Filters Make You Lose Power?



whatebahw
05-31-2013, 11:44 AM
I found this video online (and have since been binging on videos by these guys). You may detest their style and humor (I don't) but their methods seem honest and thoughtful. This is a combination of backyard mechanic and Mythbusters.

After they show that POD filters don't work they take on cold air intakes.

"If you did a poo before you drove your car that would give you more of a performance gain than putting on the most expensive POD filter you can buy."


POD Filters Mythbusted (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAIxeQUSg-Q)
Cold Air Intakes Mythbusted (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCi2yo4UqPI)

sfhpawel
05-31-2013, 11:56 AM
True, but some have bought/altered there intakes purely for aesthetics, and for the sound of the turbo / wastegate that the stock airbox silences :)

shabba
05-31-2013, 12:09 PM
I tend to agree that the performance is minimal at best. However, there is also the advantage of money saved in replacements. I always purchased performance filters for my cars in the past because it was the price of 2, maybe 3 OEM filters. As I drove my cars a lot and had to do maintenance, it made sense to me to do it once and clean it when needed...it saved me a lot of money, especially when I had 2 or more cars in the stable.

opiateESP
05-31-2013, 12:21 PM
I found this video online (and have since been binging on videos by these guys). You may detest their style and humor (I don't) but their methods seem honest and thoughtful. This is a combination of backyard mechanic and Mythbusters.

After they show that POD filters don't work they take on cold air intakes.

"If you did a poo before you drove your car that would give you more of a performance gain than putting on the most expensive POD filter you can buy."


POD Filters Mythbusted (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAIxeQUSg-Q)
Cold Air Intakes Mythbusted (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCi2yo4UqPI)



The main problem with their video's is the fact that they're "myth busting" based on a single car. Some cars see 0 gains from an intake, others lose power from an intake but however, others do gain power. These guys make no allowance for that.

I like their episode on electric superchargers :P

Mr. Man
05-31-2013, 12:48 PM
The main problem with their video's is the fact that they're "myth busting" based on a single car. Some cars see 0 gains from an intake, others lose power from an intake but however, others do gain power. These guys make no allowance for that.

I like their episode on electric superchargers :P

Electric superchargers.... :lol:

sfhpawel
05-31-2013, 01:39 PM
Electric superchargers.... :lol:

its almost as funny as a honda civic video i found long time ago. They dyno'd the car with a leaf blower attached to the intake. Wether it worked or not... idk , didnt stick around to see the numbers for an impractical application lol

opiateESP
05-31-2013, 01:44 PM
its almost as funny as a honda civic video i found long time ago. They dyno'd the car with a leaf blower attached to the intake. Wether it worked or not... idk , didnt stick around to see the numbers for an impractical application lol

That's the best part about that episode. They strap not 1 but 2 leafblowers to the car and got a consistent 2-3 extra horsepower. Mind you, this was on a car with less horsepower that a base 500. :P

whatebahw
05-31-2013, 02:58 PM
The main problem with their video's is the fact that they're "myth busting" based on a single car.

Watch again. I'm pretty sure I saw three cars. One turbo and one NA in the 1st vid and a skyline/gtr in the 2nd.

A small sampling to be sure but definite food for thought.

whatebahw
05-31-2013, 02:59 PM
I tend to agree that the performance is minimal at best. However, there is also the advantage of money saved in replacements. I always purchased performance filters for my cars in the past because it was the price of 2, maybe 3 OEM filters. As I drove my cars a lot and had to do maintenance, it made sense to me to do it once and clean it when needed...it saved me a lot of money, especially when I had 2 or more cars in the stable.

Unless your car is the type that will be affected negatively by the oil from the oiled filter. Also, filters are cheap and the time it would take me to clean one isn't worth the money it takes to replace one for me.

whatebahw
05-31-2013, 03:02 PM
True, but some have bought/altered there intakes purely for aesthetics, and for the sound of the turbo / wastegate that the stock airbox silences :)


They mentioned that as a matter of fact. I think they said something like that is all an aftermarket filter is good for. I don't have my bonnet open enough to benefit from the aesthetics though.

2Cool
05-31-2013, 03:30 PM
Unless they throw a big (really big) fan in front of it to simulate actually running the car down the road, their experiment is pointless. All they have proved is that breathing hot underhood air is bad compared to a stock intake drawing cool air from outside the engine compartment. Well duh, pretty obvious conclusion.

Also, saying the panel is useless compared to stock over a .5kw difference?! Back to back runs they were doing had more variance than that, and they stated the difference was not worth noting. So be consistent or admit you are doing things for entertainment value only.

Do the same experiment on an Abarth, trying out the HCI, the RRM, and any of the short ram intakes vs a stock airbox as a control, with a big fan for airflow, and you will likely see a different conclusion.

whatebahw
05-31-2013, 04:10 PM
Unless they throw a big (really big) fan in front of it to simulate actually running the car down the road, their experiment is pointless. All they have proved is that breathing hot underhood air is bad compared to a stock intake drawing cool air from outside the engine compartment. Well duh, pretty obvious conclusion.

Also, saying the panel is useless compared to stock over a .5kw difference?! Back to back runs they were doing had more variance than that, and they stated the difference was not worth noting. So be consistent or admit you are doing things for entertainment value only.

Do the same experiment on an Abarth, trying out the HCI, the RRM, and any of the short ram intakes vs a stock airbox as a control, with a big fan for airflow, and you will likely see a different conclusion.


Did you watch the 2nd video where they pointed at and explained the big fan pointed at the front of the car? The fan was present in both videos but only mentioned in one. Also I think fans are rated by CFM instead of "big" and "really big". CFM and size may not be directly proportionate.

whatebahw
05-31-2013, 04:42 PM
Did you watch the 2nd video where they pointed at and explained the big fan pointed at the front of the car? The fan was present in both videos but only mentioned in one. Also I think fans are rated by CFM instead of "big" and "really big". CFM and size may not be directly proportionate.

Actually they go into more detail on the fan that was designed for the dyno here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbGWgvJN1_8&feature=player_detailpage#t=133s).

2Cool
05-31-2013, 04:44 PM
Did you watch the 2nd video where they pointed at and explained the big fan pointed at the front of the car? The fan was present in both videos but only mentioned in one. Also I think fans are rated by CFM instead of "big" and "really big". CFM and size may not be directly proportionate.

Did you go out of your way to be snarky? No sh$t fans are rated in airflow, didn't realize you required specifications for a casual discussion of casual videos.

The first video did not have the fan running on either car, you can see the lack of motion of the straps and items about the area. So the results are fairly useless.

The second video was on a factory performance car only, which you have to assume Nissan had spent some time designing the stock intake tract for the best horsepower they could compared to a normal car's compromise with NVH reduction as much of a factor as flow numbers. So I certainly expect much less variance there between stock and aftermarket.

The tests were fun, tongue in cheek, and pretty much not empirical scientific method. Entertainment and some info to be taken with a grain of salt.

whatebahw
05-31-2013, 04:56 PM
The first video did not have the fan running on either car, you can see the lack of motion of the straps and items about the area. So the results are fairly useless.

That's why the antenna is flapping in the wind too I guess. LOL! Of course they're using the fan. SRSLY!?
When you mentioned the straps not flapping in the wind as proof of no airflow this meme was all I could think of! THX.
6479

KKaWing
05-31-2013, 05:00 PM
A few factors the video doesn't address. (Love their vids. btw, did you see their bondo tutorial? lol)

- The cars tested might not be as prone to heat soaking the engine bay. Heat problems should be familiar to you Abarth owners.

- Stock for stock, yes the video applies. When you start increasing boost / power in general, the filter area of the stock filter might not be enough for the increased volume of air required. "Pod" filters offer greater filtration area per the amount of space available.

- Intake piping also plays a factor. Venturi effects and geometry can change flow characteristics and may significantly affect the power-band. Take a look at the S2K intakes with the weird bulge intake tubes as an example. Another benefit might be smoother piping due to cramped engine bays, *ahem* Fiat 500's *ahem*. Also, stock intakes might have noise abatement material(s) that hamper airflow (not talking about resonators here, sometimes they benefit due to weird harmonics voodoo, rather weird bends, caps, and inner materials).

- The video can't really be applied to *all* cars, some cars have great OE intakes, others need some help. Example of good would be the new Focus ST which comes with a cylindrical filter and pretty smooth inlet piping and a 2-way "cold air" inlet tubes into the airbox. An example of not so good would be the Mazdaspeed3 where there is a pretty small airbox (I believe shared with the standard 3) and have flattened bends at the turbo inlet, not to mention it is basically sucking though a straw for the "cold air" inlet.

2Cool
05-31-2013, 08:05 PM
That's why the antenna is flapping in the wind too I guess. LOL! Of course they're using the fan. SRSLY!?
When you mentioned the straps not flapping in the wind as proof of no airflow this meme was all I could think of! THX.
6479

There is no indication the fan is on. If it is on, it is not a high flow unit. I worked for 4 years at a dyno facility, running a Superflow dyno and tuning cars. We used a very large fan, which when running you could not hear to talk. Running anything less does NOT simulate road speeds.

whatebahw
05-31-2013, 10:51 PM
We used a very large fan (emphasis added)

How does a "very large fan " compare against a "big fan" and a "really big fan"? They describe theirs as a "massive industrial fan" Nice...

I looked up the fan from the video and is made primarily for dynos. It is made by the manufacturer of the dyno equipment specifically to dyno cars but because it isn't "very large" , "big" or "really big" you don't think it works. Seriously you have no idea of the CFM capabilities of this fan by its size and judging by the pictures of dyno fans on the web this fan is larger than many (maybe even most). I say it wouldn't matter exactly how much air the fan puts out regardless. I'd wager the only variables that will matter as far as measuring intake performance are the air pressure and temp outside the filter. The fans are there primarily for the engine cooling (to keep it from blowing up:Rolleyes:). You aren't making any sense. You worked at a dyno for 4 years! Okay. I know a guy that worked 15 years at a restaurant and can't cook a meal.

So what is your theory on why the owner of the dyno allegedly doesn't use the fan? I'd love to hear it. Is it a conspiracy by the OEM paper filter industry to make aftermarket intakes look bad ? ROFL

whatebahw
05-31-2013, 11:46 PM
The first video did not have the fan running on either car, you can see the lack of motion of the straps and items about the area. So the results are fairly useless.

What seems to be happening to the straps at 3 min 12 sec (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAIxeQUSg-Q&feature=player_detailpage#t=191s)? Are they moving on their own? What about the cables near the dyno interface? or the wires near the bumper? The antenna? The key on the dyno console? All moving on their own I suppose? What about the taut but trembling straps bottom right at 6min35sec? The sign behind the car? Dude? What are you on about?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAIxeQUSg-Q&feature=player_detailpage#t=191s

whatebahw
06-03-2013, 11:55 AM
Does anyone have an opinion regarding the statement made at 7min54sec by the mechanic running the dyno? He says there will be issues running oiled filters in a car with an "Air flow meter" or "hot wire air flow meter" and that in the long term the oil will coat the wire and lead to faulty readings and lean conditions (BOOM!). After all, aren't all the aftermarket filters sold for the 500 oiled?

shabba
06-03-2013, 12:09 PM
Unless your car is the type that will be affected negatively by the oil from the oiled filter. Also, filters are cheap and the time it would take me to clean one isn't worth the money it takes to replace one for me.

And that tends to be more the rule than the exception now. The last time I put an oiled filter in a car was my '85 Mazda RX-7...an older car without a MAF sensor. I don't think I've put an oiled filter in a car since 2003 or so and haven't with ANY of my new cars.

whatebahw
06-03-2013, 12:20 PM
And that tends to be more the rule than the exception now. The last time I put an oiled filter in a car was my '85 Mazda RX-7...an older car without a MAF sensor. I don't think I've put an oiled filter in a car since 2003 or so and haven't with ANY of my new cars.
At 7min54sec the mechanic running the dyno says there will be issues running oiled filters in a car with an "Air flow meter" or "hot wire air flow meter" and that in the long term the oil will coat the wire and lead to faulty readings and lean conditions especially on turbo cars (BOOM!) . Aren't all the popular aftermarket filters sold for the 500 oiled?

opiateESP
06-03-2013, 12:20 PM
Does anyone have an opinion regarding the statement made at 7min54sec by the mechanic running the dyno? He says there will be issues running oiled filters in a car with an "Air flow meter" or "hot wire air flow meter" and that in the long term the oil will coat the wire and lead to faulty readings and lean conditions (BOOM!). After all, aren't all the aftermarket filters sold for the 500 oiled?

So I went to get my car dyno'd this weekend but the dyno broke so I didn't get to make a run. It just so happens that I have an R3T V2 intake ordered and I reckon it'll be here before I get back to the dyno. So why don't we just settle this the old fashioned way. If someone wants to send me a K&N drop in, we can test one of those too. This is all on a 500T. If it be idiots the lower boosting 500T, then it will definitely help an Abarth.

Good?

whatebahw
06-03-2013, 12:25 PM
So I went to get my car dyno'd this weekend but the dyno broke so I didn't get to make a run. It just so happens that I have an R3T V2 intake ordered and I reckon it'll be here before I get back to the dyno. So why don't we just settle this the old fashioned way. If someone wants to send me a K&N drop in, we can test one of those too. This is all on a 500T. If it be idiots the lower boosting 500T, then it will definitely help an Abarth.

Good?

How do you reckon a dyno run will settle questions about the long term build up of oil on the MAF sensor?

shabba
06-03-2013, 12:27 PM
At 7min54sec the mechanic running the dyno says there will be issues running oiled filters in a car with an "Air flow meter" or "hot wire air flow meter" and that in the long term the oil will coat the wire and lead to faulty readings and lean conditions especially on turbo cars (BOOM!) . Aren't all the popular aftermarket filters sold for the 500 oiled?

Yep. That's exactly what I started hearing so I didn't use one in any car with an air meter.

I'm not sure about the aftermarket filters. I haven't checked.

opiateESP
06-03-2013, 12:29 PM
How do you reckon a dyno run will settle questions about the long term build up of oil on the MAF sensor?

Shouldn't have quoted you son, but this will at least we'll get the power part sorted for turbo Fiats... as far as oil goes, if someone puts enough oil on a filter in a turbo fiat, that it goes through the turbo, into the intercoolers and backup to the MAF... they should probably not work on their own car.

whatebahw
06-03-2013, 01:07 PM
Shouldn't have quoted you son, but this will at least we'll get the power part sorted for turbo Fiats... as far as oil goes, if someone puts enough oil on a filter in a turbo fiat, that it goes through the turbo, into the intercoolers and backup to the MAF... they should probably not work on their own car.

I'm not your "son". There is no call for abasement. The error was admittedly yours after all.

I'm sure a mist of oil can easily travel farther than that. It would move along with the air until it lands on something hot like a MAF sensor.

opiateESP
06-03-2013, 01:15 PM
I'm not your "son". There is no call for abasement. The error was admittedly yours after all.

I'm sure a mist of oil can easily travel farther than that. It would move along with the air until it lands on something hot like a MAF sensor.

I call loads of people son. It's not meant as demeaning, sorry you took it that way. No harm intended. I've run oiled filters for a very long time and I've never run into any issues... ever.

opiateESP
06-03-2013, 03:04 PM
Lol. I don't see anyone else chiming in. Anyone else can draw their own conclusions. Anyhow, I'm done with this thread. I came in to offer to ACTUALLY do some real world testing. Please reply and have the last word, I won't be wasting any more time with you.

whatebahw
06-03-2013, 03:11 PM
Lol. I don't see anyone else chiming in. Anyone else can draw their own conclusions. Anyhow, I'm done with this thread. I came in to offer to ACTUALLY do some real world testing. Please reply and have the last word, I won't be wasting any more time with you.

Somehow I doubt it. Your ability to "inadvertently" condescend is only rivaled by your inability to remain emphatically apathetic.

shagghie
06-03-2013, 03:18 PM
first time hopping in this thread. I knew from the title of the thread that it would have to deteriorate over time based on the subject matter alone. Let's all remember not to take ourselves or our cars TOO seriously, k? ALLLL GOOOOOD!

Fiat500USA
06-03-2013, 05:00 PM
Stopped by during my lunch and had to read through all that?! I've got to go back, so knock it off! Please:-)

dart1.4t
06-03-2013, 05:17 PM
At 7min54sec the mechanic running the dyno says there will be issues running oiled filters in a car with an "Air flow meter" or "hot wire air flow meter" and that in the long term the oil will coat the wire and lead to faulty readings and lean conditions especially on turbo cars (BOOM!) . Aren't all the popular aftermarket filters sold for the 500 oiled?

we don't have a MAF. our cars are speed/density and wide band o2.

whatebahw
06-03-2013, 05:30 PM
we don't have a MAF. our cars are speed/density and wide band o2.

Good to know. MAP sensors however can still be adversely affected by oil from the filters.

Seafarer61
06-03-2013, 05:37 PM
That video has been posted on more car forums than I care to remember. First off, to make a claim about all air filters/intakes based on the results of a dyno test on one car begs for ridicule. I've purchased more than 15 assorted intakes for various sports cars over the years and drum roll please....every single one gained horsepower over stock. To what extent....again....more drums please.....was dependent on the car and the intake chosen. Gee, imagine that? Stock intakes, in all but the rarest of exceptions for automobiles priced in our range, are chosen for the average owner, not for tuners and enthusiasts who welcome intake honk. Good grief, any visit to Barnes and Noble to read any of the tuner mags will give you intake features comparing one to another.....with nearly every intake offering more hp than stock.

That video proves one thing. On that day, on that dyno, with that particular car and those particular cool air options...not much could be gained. No more, no less.


Discourse about mods is usually a good thing. One based on that idiotic video I saw years ago is not.

whatebahw
06-03-2013, 05:57 PM
First off, to make a claim about all air filters/intakes based on the results of a dyno test on one car begs for ridicule...

...That video proves one thing. On that day, on that dyno, with that particular car and those particular cool air options...not much could be gained. No more, no less.

Not sure you watched the same videos I posted but the tests were on three cars with multiple filters instead of one car as you claim.

Seafarer61
06-03-2013, 06:02 PM
Watch the second video you posted. One car. That's the video I'm referring to.

whatebahw
06-03-2013, 06:04 PM
Good grief, any visit to Barnes and Noble to read any of the tuner mags will give you intake features comparing one to another.....with nearly every intake offering more hp than stock.

I'd love to see some unbiased empirical data if you can offer some. Don't tuner magazines get their bills paid by their advertisers? Do you have any monetary stake in the sale of aftermarket intakes?

whatebahw
06-03-2013, 06:09 PM
Watch the second video you posted. One car. That's the video I'm referring to.



I posted a series two videos containing 3 cars all being dynoed with different types of aftermarket filters. The video you watched is a continuation of the other video. That's like watching "Return of the Jedi" without seeing "Star Wars" and "The Empire Strikes Back" You might want to watch both so you know what you're talking about especially if you think we're talking about one car.

dart1.4t
06-03-2013, 06:10 PM
Somehow I doubt it. Your ability to "inadvertently" condescend is only rivaled by your inability to remain emphatically apathetic.

nice vocabulary but quit trolling. you don't know anything about the car, you just seem to want to show everyone with a shiny air filter that they are stupid for purchasing one. air filters may or may not work. get over it. you have never run a dyno and the amount of participation you have in this thread is making you look quite belligerent.

as far as what a "big fan" vs "very large fan" is and so forth, i helped my friend install a used superflow engine dyno in his shop. the papers on fan selection for that room size required that the fan move over 10000 cfm with a, i think it was a massive 1psi pressure drop in the room. 10000 cfm is easy but to pull an entire room down 1psi was a challange. the superflow fan for the application was about 10hp, and pretty expensive, we tried other fans and because they couldn't meet the requirements the results on the dyno suffered purely from sucking evap gasses from the valve covers into the carb we would see a loss of 10 or more horsepower. we eventually found a used body shop exhaust fan that seems to work. and it will suck the door closed and you will not get that thing open with it running. that fan is just to remove evap gasses from the room. that's all. to put it into perspective we used to use a reputed dyno in philly and drove all the way down from new york out of distrust of the local guy who we had personal experience with and the fan there once sucked a rag from a benchtop through a vent in a 16 foot ceiling during a run. a chassis dyno fan has to cool the engine, and evacuate and pressurize the engine bay from outside the car!!! and the cell needs to be evacuated with more fans. i've seen quotes of 150hp fans. that's a lot of watts and quite a bit more than the engine dyno fan they had in philly and a ton more than what is in my friends shop.

the easiest way to test the filter is not to use a dyno, because a. it can be expensive, and b. you can make a dyno lie and people will always doubt it anyway. if you want to be a real car guy go to the drag strip, learn to launch the car and buy a weather meter. find the "density altitude" and run the car down the strip a few times. do a mph to hp conversion, ( you'll need to scale the car and yourself accurately for that) you may be tempted to just say the car got to the end in less time so i must be making more power but subtle differences in the launch will effect time more than mph. the highest miles per hour indicates horsepower very accurately. it's actually eerie how accurate it can be.

now that may not seem as scientific as a dyno but ya got to remember that you put a lot of trust in the dyno operator and installer. is the equipment up to par? many dyno installs are not optimal for real world testing and to be honest many dyno operators don't even know how to set the weather parameters accurately.

whatebahw
06-03-2013, 06:22 PM
nice vocabulary but quit trolling. you don't know anything about the car, you just seem to want to show everyone with a shiny air filter that they are stupid for purchasing one. air filters may or may not work. get over it. you have never run a dyno and the amount of participation you have in this thread is making you look quite belligerent.

Enough with the personal attacks already. Enough with the condescension. Enough with the accusations. Don't pretend you know me. Stick to the facts. I started this thread because I wanted some evidence one way or another for myself. I see lots of arguably silly parts put on cars on this forum and I don't say anything. I could care less if you spend your money wastefully or otherwise. If I start a thread it is because I'm interested. That's all.

If you come making baseless claims, I will press for why you feel that way. If you come with misrepresentations , I will call you out. If you treat me disrespectfully , I will address that as well.

shagghie
06-03-2013, 06:30 PM
I think Dart1.4T you are really hitting the nail on the head. When I was younger and I put on a "CAI" and hear the intake sounds and growl come through I was certain it gave me horsepower per the butt dyno. But now after 20+ years of modding cars and having friends with modded cars, etc... I know better. The sounds might be awesome, and response might be a little better, but in a lot of cases, as time went on, I was never sure if I was making more power. And Dyno's don't always tell the whole story...even the same car on the same dyno but on a different DAY will/can tell a very different story, especially when gains might be modest.

Now...ALL that said, and taking into account everyone's perspectives here, as well as the OP's question about the Abarth 1.4t Multijet, I can only say that the day after I put the ATM HCI on my car, I was in AWE over the performance increase. Sure it was louder, but who cares? The car responds better than having the Sprintbooster installed, which I've subsequently taken off...and in the UPPER RPM ranges, where I spend most my time, the car was transformed, and not by a little bit, either... a LOT. Makes power all the way to rev limiter after putting on the intake, and builds power a lot faster too. And I'm not about to spend a single dime on a dyno to tell me what I already know: This is the single best CAI experience I've had in over 20 years of tuning cars and being around them, and I've never seen anything LIKE this type of % increase in power. I forget who, but another member here has had the same experience, and was even smart enough to take his OFF a week later for a sanity check...only to fully confirm what *Everyone* who has run this filter has experienced... in two words: "Holy Sh!t".

There's nothing wrong asking the question about aftermarket air filters on a car forum, especially for a 'newer' car like the Abarth. People have had both awesome and negative experiences with them here. But if the ATM HCI proves anything, it is certainly that a) there is more power to be had with the stock ECU tune by letting the car breath more, b) our ECU's will TAKE the additional air and USE it effectively and c) you couldn't pry the damn thing out of my cold dead hands. There's no such thing as a good or bad air filter... there's only 'what is the right one for you and what are you looking to get out of it'. At the end of the day, though...we kNOW that we KNOW this car responds well, performance wise, to more (and cooler) air.

Seafarer61
06-03-2013, 06:31 PM
I posted a series two videos containing 3 cars all being dynoed with different types of aftermarket filters. The video you watched is a continuation of the other video. That's like watching "Return of the Jedi" without seeing "Star Wars" and "The Empire Strikes Back" You might want to watch both so you know what you're talking about especially if you think we're talking about one car.

The first video dealt with filters. The second, cold air intakes. Entirely different topics. The second video was not a continuation, despite your assertion, of the first. Their own explaination contained in the video description said that much for Pete's sake. You seem to have stumbled on this video. I saw it a year ago. Old news.



W, you are, of course, free to feel as you will and believe what you will. I'm 51, have owned more than 25 sports cars/coupes over the years. Everything from Alfa to Fiat, a 300-hp S2000, a 550-hp Camaro, RX7 Turbos, Ford SVTs, mid-engined two seaters...you name it. Not sure exactly what you're trying to gain here. I suppose if you hang around long enough, you'll get someone to agree with you. The video posted that I refer to shows one car on one dyno. They removed the filter and put it in various locations. However, my observation remains logical. One car, one dyno. As for the advice given to peruse tuner mags, the last one I saw rated intakes from three stars to five. Those that received three stars advertise in the mag. If you think the shop fudged the results because Injen or Weapon R advertise in the mag, you're delusional. As Rasheed might say, "ball don't lie."

You started a thread. People have chimed in at the futility of the claim which is the fodder for it. Try not to take it personally when we laugh at the suggestion that a quality filter like BMC or K&N...or a well designed intake like the ATM or EC V2, isn't a better option for enthusiasts than stock.

In addition, personal experience is not "baseless claims." I personally went through seven or eight intakes on my sponsored S2000. Each one performed better than stock. The intake on my LS1 Camaro performed significantly better than stock. The aftermarket intakes chosen for both my mid engined cars outperformed the stock box. The intakes on both my SVTs performed better than stock.

You asked "do aftermarket air filters make you lose power?" and linked to two videos and then seem annoyed when those videos are maligned for making sweeping statements based on such a small sample. No aftermarket air filter or intake that I have EVER used performed worse than stock. So there is at least one answer to your question.

whatebahw
06-03-2013, 06:42 PM
I'm not annoyed by any posts that are factual. I wanted information. That's why I posted. But if you say that one car was tested I will of course correct you because you don't know what you're talking about. This thread is bout both videos. You can talk about purple leprechauns if you like but you still will be off-topic. 2 videos . 3 cars. Several filters.

Seafarer61
06-03-2013, 06:44 PM
One video was about filters. The other, intakes.

Your own words follow:


After they show that POD filters don't work they take on cold air intakes.





Nonetheless, my interest in this topic is over. I have a ballgame to watch.

dart1.4t
06-03-2013, 07:18 PM
I'm not annoyed by any posts that are factual. I wanted information. That's why I posted. But if you say that one car was tested I will of course correct you because you don't know what you're talking about. This thread is bout both videos. You can talk about purple leprechauns if you like but you still will be off-topic. 2 videos . 3 cars. Several filters.

well you got your videos. other than that untill someone takes an abarth to the strip or dyno and does back to back testing there is no "factual information" sorry. beyond that this is the internet and it's a place where things get scrutinized(your videos). as people scrutinize trends and products others scrutinize the scrutiny(everyone else). i guess we are all doing that same thing. sorry about the trolling comment, maybe it was out of line. lets just take a break from everything and look at what we know.

ok the turbo is very small. the inlet likely can't flow enough air to supply the engine peak boost at ambient temps at redline. this is true of most stock turbo cars but there may be exceptions with some high output cars like the gm turbo 2.0l and some older japanese 2 stage turbo cars like a supra or rx7. and maybe the evo and sti and others aren't choked at the turbo either but i'm not completely sure. basically what i'm saying is many stock cars have a choke point other than the filter. it's actually logical that most of the time filters do nothing on a dyno. but there are many big engine non turbo cars that may have trouble just fitting a proper intake system under the hood. in the past air filters and modifications consistantly made mile per hour improvements on american v-8 cars, maybe not "drop base" filters that aim to get more filter area by shoving a taller filter under the existing hood because they compromise the way air enters the carb but cowl induction, open element air filters, cai's as long as the tubing was very large all made a difference, and oil'd filters that fit in the stock paper filter location also made some difference.

how it all applies to the abarth is that the key to a good intake is not going to be flow area so the filter is not relevant, it's going to be how dense the air at the turbo inlet is. that will come down to temperature and pressure. you will need either a cai or ram air of some kind. all the products for the abarth aim to acheive that. do they? i don't know. but a highway speed temperature reading with load on the engine at the turbo inlet could indicate that. so is anyone converting over to a decent cai up to the challange logging the intake air temps back to back? is anyone willing to do some mph runs at the dragstrip? the problem with the cai test video is that it was the most basic cai setup possible and the power of the fan they used is questionable from an outside perspective. i wasn't there, how can i trust the fan did it's job?

shagghie
06-03-2013, 07:27 PM
how it all applies to the abarth is that the key to a good intake is not going to be flow area so the filter is not relevant, it's going to be how dense the air at the turbo inlet is. that will come down to temperature and pressure. you will need either a cai or ram air of some kind. all the products for the abarth aim to acheive that. do they? i don't know. but a highway speed temperature reading with load on the engine at the turbo inlet could indicate that. so is anyone converting over to a decent cai up to the challange logging the intake air temps back to back? is anyone willing to do some mph runs at the dragstrip?

Short answer for me personally is 'no'. If and when I get to more marginal upgrades and am curious if and how much they are making power, I might do that, but I'm not even to a good 'baseline' to even start dynoing yet...the extra power is just coming too fast and easy by letting her breath to worry about it, and I haven't even gotten to an exhaust mod yet. Once I have exhaust in place, and get a real ECU tune, I'll take my first dyno baseline. Because from then on, it's a game of cat and mouse sometimes and you can loose or gain power and need to know that you are heading in the right direction. To me, that is all a dyno is good for: On THIS day, with this ONE mod, I saw more power on average after several before and after runs. Hood shut, fans on. Period. For anything else, it's all mental masturbation, and that's not what this car about. Butt dyno until I'm not sure any more, in other words. By the time you spend the time/money on a dyno, at this stage, it's better to put the time/$ into MOAR MODS! :-) Right with you Dart1.4T....

whatebahw
06-03-2013, 07:32 PM
One video was about filters. The other, intakes.

Your own words follow:



Nonetheless, my interest in this topic is over. I have a ballgame to watch.

You're arguing semantics.

dart1.4t
06-03-2013, 08:24 PM
http://www.exair.com/en-US/Primary%20Navigation/Products/Vortex%20Tubes%20and%20Spot%20Cooling/Vortex%20Tubes/Pages/A%20Phenomenon%20of%20Physics.aspx

http://www.airtx.com/how-does-a-vortex-tube-work.htm

on the topic of "cold air" back in the the late 60's or early 70's the famed invetor and cheater smokey yunick claimed to have accidentally discovered the same principal observed in the product above or a similar one when a T he forgot to solder in his shop air blew the lines out. one side came out hot and the other cold. he didn't seem to understand the principal at work in his writings, he atributed it to the sides being different length not a vortex and made no mention of air entering tangentally or off centerline in anyway, he sites it being used on systems to pump cool air in mine shafts and the original designer but at that time this prinicpal wasn't well known and physicists didn't all know why it works, well really they still don't all agree (science is cool, it's amazing what we know about the universe and particles and chemistry but don't know about what goes on around us). but he attempted to build a cold air intake hood for a 70 camaro he built for racing. he reports it worked in his book, maybe he accidentally created a vortex, i dunno. but i have wanted to find a car with a big grill and lots of engine bay to build a vortex cold air intake. or even perhaps an intercooler chiller. the big problem is with a small pressure differential you need a ton of airflow to make it work so it wouldn't be good for todays cars..

Tweak
06-03-2013, 08:30 PM
I'm all for open debate and such because it can provide a great learning opportunity and that's always good but Earlier today a member not even in this recent conversation did report this post which is why Chris popped in, love the passion but certainly keep in mind we all have strong opinions and as was requested we should not be tossing personal insults or arguing for the sake of arguing. No fingers pointed, not even a serious problem at this time but just a reminder that we stay focused on the topic(s) at hand and progress with useful information. Thanks!