PDA

View Full Version : Bleed valve vs. "ECU" boost controller? $35.00 vs.$650.00



whatebahw
05-31-2013, 11:15 AM
I have a question for any of you gear-heads who are not in the business of selling "ECU boxes". It is my understanding that the boost controllers for this car all work in basically the same way.(They trick the ECU into requesting more boost from the turbo). Installing a bleed valve before the wastegate has similar effect by fooling the wastegate into releasing later thereby increasing boost pressures. With notable differences in price ($30-$45 versus $500-$800) what could be the advantage of running a tuning box over the bleed valve and are those differences worth the price?

Most opinions welcome.

sfhpawel
05-31-2013, 11:47 AM
To my understanding there are more parameters being controlled. Not as many as one would hope for that price -_-
Such as "tricking the ecu for boost" , I believe the intake temp is also altered by 15deg, if I read correctly somewhere.
Timing may also be altered.

I may be wrong, and I am not disagreeing with you.
But a bleed valve would be a physical mod, actually forcing the stock ECU tune to work with or against the changed environment.(leading to long term problems perhaps)
As for the tuner box, it becomes direct ecu related, you're not plugging/bypassing anything on the physical system. Wether the ECM Box does a good job at the ECU alteration, I do not know, it too can lead to long term problems

whatebahw
05-31-2013, 12:09 PM
They both work by forcing the turbo to boost more and relying on the ECU to compensate in order to regulate AFR. As far as the ECU is concerned I don't think there is much difference. Neither adjust timing. As far as how the paramaters are controlled with a piggyback... all we get is "SHHHH, It's a secret!"

deathshead
05-31-2013, 12:39 PM
1 Word. Ghetto

whatebahw
05-31-2013, 02:47 PM
1 Word. Ghetto

Ghetto? why? If it cost more it must be better even if the effect is the same? You are a supporter of the 85 "Free power mod". Is the "Free power mod" ghetto as well. it uses a 85 piece. Why ghetto? I've never heard bleed valves mentioned in a rap lyric.

2Cool
05-31-2013, 03:33 PM
I used a bleed valve on both my '03 Evo VIII (21psi was fun) and on my '04 GTO with STS cat-back turbo. A quality valve set up right will give very consistent results.

Only thing I worry about with the Abarth is the amount of computer controls on the turbo setup, the ECU is likely to counteract any manual changes to boost and correct for them. Or fail to do so and result in boost spikes.

dart1.4t
06-01-2013, 07:19 AM
i don't know if a bleed valve will work on this car. that's old school. back in the day the boost was purely regulated by the waste gate spring. now boost is commanded by temperature rpm and throttle position then read by a boost sensor. i'm not sure if the boost reading is used as feedback control or just aids in getting a proper fuel mixture and checking that things are within expected ranges. if it's feedback it depends on how it uses it. my brothers solstice can be fooled into more boost by changing the waste gate rod length for 3 drives before it changes the parameters to go back to the stock boost levels, but it is surely possible to do this in real time all the time. depends on what fiat decided to do with all the sensor data. a bleed valve may add boost but possibly then throw a code, or add boost temperarily or not add boost at all. all things that can be avoided to some extent with a boost controller by altering sensor outputs. try it if you must but if you do post the results so we know.

Abarth Phreak
06-01-2013, 11:43 AM
5 words!!!

Show me the car fax!





Just kidding....in all seriousness, I would personally like to see someone experiment with this "bleed valve" P.K.A. - Manual Boost Controller Valve, at their own risk of course. I never reallyyyy trusted a MBCV set-up and always used an EBC, although I know MBC's have resulted in gains. The valves do trick the turbo pressure systems, but there is much more to today's cars as discussed. Personally I am not willing to risk warranty coverage to be the guinea pig on this one....any takers on the R&D side?

deathshead
06-02-2013, 07:16 PM
Ghetto? why? If it cost more it must be better even if the effect is the same? You are a supporter of the 85 "Free power mod". Is the "Free power mod" ghetto as well. it uses a 85 piece. Why ghetto? I've never heard bleed valves mentioned in a rap lyric.



The Free horsepower mod is a legitimate solution for a design compromise.

The Free horsepower mod will also not have the possible result of driving over the crankshaft or your connecting
rods playing peek-a-boo out of the side of your block.

A bleed valve is a cheap way to cause expensive problems.

How much more boost you want to push through this turbo?

Our cars are already over pushing 20PSI STOCK with a TERRIBLE stock tune that pulls timing like a YO-YO.
Its highley likely your going just pull more timing, pop codes, etc etc.

The ecu in these cars are very finicky, perhaps you might have some decent results?

Heck I'll Admit I ran a Grainger valve back in 97 when I had a 93 Isuzu Impulse RS AWD Turbo.
It gave me an extra 5-6 psi, anymore and it would pop overboost codes.
On the Grand Nationals way back we used to cut the waste gate arms, thread them and put a turnbuckle in to adjust.
The SRT-4 guys ran the "Spring mod" way back in the beginning, thats another ghetto mod.
I would love to see the results.

zonker
06-02-2013, 08:27 PM
Well, I have one on my car right now and am testing it.

Popped an overboost code once then backed off... seeing higher boost numbers but the ecu is still king here,
meaning I have not played with it enough to find the sweet spot between what the sensors will allow and how hi the boost can be pushed.

Right now it's mounted between the solenoid and the wastegate. I plan on trying it between the boost source and the solenoid next. No codes yet (other than the first overboost code that threw it in limp home mode LOL)

I'm seeing 2-4 psi more than without the MBC.
Highest boost value before the MBC was 17.1 (this is a 500T), and now I am seeing up to 21.3 without codes (so far).

I am running an air fuel gauge on it as well, and am not seeing any dangerous lean conditions yet - still running 11-13 at WOT.

whatebahw
06-03-2013, 10:39 AM
The Free horsepower mod is a legitimate solution for a design compromise.

The Free horsepower mod will also not have the possible result of driving over the crankshaft or your connecting
rods playing peek-a-boo out of the side of your block.

A bleed valve is a cheap way to cause expensive problems.

How much more boost you want to push through this turbo?

Our cars are already over pushing 20PSI STOCK with a TERRIBLE stock tune that pulls timing like a YO-YO.
Its highley likely your going just pull more timing, pop codes, etc etc.

The ecu in these cars are very finicky, perhaps you might have some decent results?

Heck I'll Admit I ran a Grainger valve back in 97 when I had a 93 Isuzu Impulse RS AWD Turbo.
It gave me an extra 5-6 psi, anymore and it would pop overboost codes.
On the Grand Nationals way back we used to cut the waste gate arms, thread them and put a turnbuckle in to adjust.
The SRT-4 guys ran the "Spring mod" way back in the beginning, thats another ghetto mod.
I would love to see the results.

Thanks for the further explanation. Your POV makes some sense now. But, I live in/near a ghetto and can think of many things that can described as "ghetto" (twankies, grills, shoes over the power lines, chargers, 300s, Magnums, Malt Liquor, chore boys, Title/payday loans, gun shops, discount tobacco/beer stores, etc.) . I still don't see why this mod can be considered "ghetto". What is ghetto to you? As far as your explanation for the "Free horsepower mod" being a "legitimate solution for a design compromise", wouldn't that definition apply to most mods? Haven't the adopters of the "free power mod" been plagued with CELs? Sounds legit!?

Ryephile
06-03-2013, 10:53 AM
Well, I have one on my car right now and am testing it.

Popped an overboost code once then backed off... seeing higher boost numbers but the ecu is still king here,
meaning I have not played with it enough to find the sweet spot between what the sensors will allow and how hi the boost can be pushed.

Right now it's mounted between the solenoid and the wastegate. I plan on trying it between the boost source and the solenoid next. No codes yet (other than the first overboost code that threw it in limp home mode LOL)

I'm seeing 2-4 psi more than without the MBC.
Highest boost value before the MBC was 17.1 (this is a 500T), and now I am seeing up to 21.3 without codes (so far).

I am running an air fuel gauge on it as well, and am not seeing any dangerous lean conditions yet - still running 11-13 at WOT.

Interesting. I would've expected the ECU to be more vigilant with boost pressure. 4.2 PSIg delta is significant. It must be programmed to see several PSI transients and you're riding barely within that tolerance window. In stock config while datalogging, I've seen modest boost spikes during WOT roll-on, and a couple PSI spikes during lift-off mainly from the poor flowing BOV. All that has to be coded into the ECU programming so it doesn't panic with stock hardware.

FWIW there's no reason for this engine to run itself lean unless you try pretty hard to do something dumb, as it runs closed-loop WBO2 even at WOT.

MAZ
06-03-2013, 11:07 AM
1 Word. Ghetto
^Damn you stole my reply

MBC's are kind of the cheap/dangerous/'rig-job' way to go imo.

sfhpawel
06-04-2013, 12:59 PM
The first time I ran a piggyback on my 500T. The car exhibited behavior of what seemed as a boost limiter. The RPM would oscilate it was very audible under heavy acceleration. (peak at 13psi) I adjusted the spring tension on the actuator, seemed to have solved the problem. F/A ratio seems stable, and car runs well. My original theory was that the waste gate actuator rod was set differently on the 500T than the Abarth. Now I saw zonkers post about his peak PSI thats crazy 21psi!?!

I wonder if the ECU on the Abarth and 500T are really the same, but its little things such as the actuator, etc. that can be manually adjusted would result in the same tune configuration from the ecu relearning. I'm just brainstorming... considering the fact if you want to buy a 1.4L multiair engine, there is no 500T or Abarth selection. The engine is what is on mopar...

Mr. Man
06-04-2013, 03:02 PM
^Damn you stole my reply

MBC's are kind of the cheap/dangerous/'rig-job' way to go imo.

Might as well rip out the stock airbox and run the car without an air filter

deathshead
06-05-2013, 08:55 AM
Thanks for the further explanation. Your POV makes some sense now. But, I live in/near a ghetto and can think of many things that can described as "ghetto" (twankies, grills, shoes over the power lines, chargers, 300s, Magnums, Malt Liquor, chore boys, Title/payday loans, gun shops, discount tobacco/beer stores, etc.) . I still don't see why this mod can be considered "ghetto". What is ghetto to you? As far as your explanation for the "Free horsepower mod" being a "legitimate solution for a design compromise", wouldn't that definition apply to most mods? Haven't the adopters of the "free power mod" been plagued with CELs? Sounds legit!?


You havent been on the internet very long have you?
"Ghetto mod" is a term that's been around for a LOOOOOOOOOOOONG time on just about every forum on the internet. Its a word to describe a rigged up, typically made on the fly from materials around the house, homedepot. etc with little to no actual research put in.

A way to "hack" something for performance with no actual out of pocket expenses usually done by trial and (sometimes) catastrophic error.

There are some great Ghetto mods.

Got an old full size Chevy with a small block and a Q-jet or TB?
take off the air cleaner and put it on upside down, put the wing nut back on.
WHOOOOOOOOOOMMMPPPPP!!!

Removing air restrictors/silencers in general to open them up for more flow, such as the
home plate mod on older LT1s. consisting of Home depot parts.

Using spring shackles to lower and stiffen up springs..

prybarring out the insides of catalytic converters.

welding spider gears. haha

the list goes on, those could be considered "Ghetto Mods"